fiveelementtao

The "report" is completely biased and totally unreliable... One of the main if not THE main contributor to this "report" is someone from Taobums with ZERO personal experience a very serious personal agenda based on other very serious personal and emotional issues. The "report" is a classic attempt to only search out and distort "evidence" to promote their agenda. If you want a real report on spontaneous qigong, there are many people here on taobums who can give you opinions based on their personal experiences.

I strongly support your decision to stop KL. It comes down to what is best for each of us. I have never bought into the idea that Kunlun or ANY practice or religion is a path to enlightenment. I think the whole concept of enlightenment is BS. Life is a journey. It is about progressing on the path to maturity throughout many lifetimes (IMO).

Perfect suggestion. breath is the easiest and fastest way to increase the Chi and strengthen the aura! Any qigong practice, yoga or breath exercises will help.

Winpro, my friend. Gloria is hurt and angry from her own personal experience. That is an important difference. People have the right to voice their concerns, frustrations and feelings. I do not sense that people are doing the starjumper thing where they are trying to discredit someone for unrelated personal reasons. It is not helpful to those who are sincerely confused or hurt to try and shut them down. If Kunlun has taught me anything it is that there is no "Right" or "Wrong." You are contributing to the dualistic thinking by implying that people shouldn't be "Rocking the boat." If Kunlun is legitimate, there is no need to defend the practice. All that does is further entrench people against you and the practice. Let people work through their frustrations. It can only make the practice better for everyone. Your explanations may be correct. I am reading them myself and taking note of them. But, I suggest offering your explanations with more compassion. It will accomplish your goal better... Mike

I have practiced this art. and I 110% agree! Perfectly said!

Funny thing... I left the forum and guess what movie was on TV? 9Dl5zqdzhY4&feature This thread has inspired me to continue with my practices but to try and "remember" slowly, in safe, digestable stages...

Hey Yoda, did you PM me a couple days back? Somebody PMed me and I lost it. Was that you?

This is a great question... I think it is worthwhile to back up and define what we mean by lineage in this instance. KL came from two sources. The Shang Ch'ing arts and Jenny lamb. I am in Max's Shang Ch'ing lineage and I have NEVER been visited by any unfriendlies. I had one encounter about 15 years ago (long before Max) where during meditation, I had an OBE and there was a woman in my room who spoke my name and the power in her voice scared me and I woke up and chased her out. She never came back. I wish I hadn't freaked out, I have no idea if she was there to help me or what. But, she has never come back. I've asked her to and still a no-show. Around the same time, I had a dream, (more like a memory that I assumed was a dream) where an alien (the big eyed kind) was peering around my bedroom door while I was sitting up in bed as though to say, "Who is this new Spirit Fighter?" I definitely got the vibe that it was just responding to the vibe from the practices and wanted to see where it was coming from. Just curiosity. Never came back. I have had dreams where I was taught by Sifu (the grandmaster). He was always friendly and helpful. Powerful, wierd and mind-blowing dreams, but never fearful. I accidently chased him away in a dream also, and he has not come back. In my experience, any of the Shang Ch'ing visitations have always been very respectful and never pushed my boundaries. I have never heard any students of Jenny's report any negative entities or viruses attacking them. So, the question is: Is it the practices? I think no. Is it the lineage? (Shang Ch'ing or Lamb) I think no. Is it Max and/or OUR personal psyches responding to Max? What does this say about the teacher student relationship when it comes to powerful spiritual practices? Lets' assume just for argument's sake that it IS Max projecting his stuff onto us, (I'm nnot saying it is one way or the other) But, If that is the case, I think we STILL have the power (Nay, the responsiblity) to reject what we don't want and protect ourselves and still keep the practice (If we choose). What is more important to each of us? The practice or the teacher? I believe we can isolate the practices from the teacher, but that means we need to take responsibility ourselves for what we allow into our psyches... In essence, we need to become our own teachers... I personally never bought into the whole lineage thing. Not that I don't accept that there is a lineage, just that, I never felt the need to have spiritual entities guide my practice. Sometimes, in KL, I got the feeling that some people were using the lineage aspect and the spiritual experiences and visitations in an escapist way. Like others, I had one experience with Max where he performed one of his "tricks" on me. I allowed it for a time, but after a couple of seconds, I also said "no." I was in complete control. After that, he didn't ask to try anything on me. I was only interested in the practices, not Max. I enjoyed the show, but it was never about him for me, it was about the practices. So, is it the practice, the lineage or just our psychic cooperation with Max or our psychological projections of Max? If it is the latter, then, that indicates to me that the practices are OK, but we either need to follow a teacher whom we feel safe with OR, separate ourselves from the psyche of the teacher. A fellow taoist friend of mine once told me, "When you ask for help from the immortals, always be sure that you say 'I ask for help from any immortals who are meant to work with me' because not all spirits know what they're doing or have our best interest at heart." So, I always say "Who are sent by my highest self to guide me." It seems to me that many in KL just allowed any old spirit to show up and do whatever they want without first setting the spiritual boundaries.

Amen...

Harboring some resentments? Seriously SJ... then, drink some chamomile tea or something... When I saw the other post, and I thought it might be you... I was actually thinking "Wow, if that's SJ, he has calmed down alot. Good for him!" Then you show up and break your silence by calling me stupid... P.S. I was recently wondering what had happened to you. Hope you are doing OK... Glad to know you are still alive and kicking...

No. It is a meditation technique to stimulate the pineal gland and open the central channel. It is only taught in person. It is very powerful and dangerous if done incorrectly. It's a good thing it is not in print... You would have to learn it at a seminar. I don't know if Max's certified teachers teach it or not...

Which is more stupid... To ask or to assume... Take a pill, hot head.

Dizzydazzle, Did you used to be known on this board under another name... specifically someone who made cosmic leaps?

I don't have all the answers but I have some ideas... I don't mean to minimize your very prudent and real concerns. In my experience, children mirror the unconscious of the parents. As your child, your daughter is deeply connected to you. You were having difficulty controlling the "Energy/Spirit" hierarchy within yourself and your daughter was mirroring this. It's important to observe that most of these things happen to us when we are asleep. Why? because that is when our unconscious is in the forefront. Many times, nighttime visitors are projections of our unconscious. The spontaneous Kunlun has the capacity to release the unconscious. So, in terms of your daughter, if YOU are able to take back control of your unconscious, your daughter will mirror that also... In terms of the stop button. (again, not trying to minimize the difficulty). I would do alot of stillness meditation or moving meditation like Tai Chi or Tai chi for enlightenment (I think you know that, right?) and simply tell your unconscious (like it were your child) to stop acting out without your permission. Have a dilaogue with your unconscious and lovingly take back control. Yoda, you were a good student and followed what Max was teaching which was "Submit to the energy. Let it all go." If Max had taught with more discipline and structure, like Jenny. Your result may have been much different. So, I believe you can take back control. My wife is a dog trainer. She breeds a very smart breed of dog. These dogs are great fun, but the owner must be a very dominant pack leader. If the owner doesn't assert authority these dogs will totally control and manipulate them. BUT, if the owner can take charge lovingly, the dog is very obedient. The unconscious is the same. It will continually test us and try and take control. But if we are the loving dominant pack leader, the unconscious will SERVE us. Like our dogs, that is what it wants. To serve. But when we abdicate our leadership, the dog will try to become the pack leader. Not because it wants to, but because there is a leadership vacuum. Again, I do not have all the answers, but this has been my experience and my observations...

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This is a very good question. I am not trying to take any responsibility from the teacher. A teacher is responsible for his students. It's not an either/or situation. Both Teacher and Student are responsible. However This is an imperfect world and each of us needs to be responsible for ourselves. No human being is powerful enough to override or take away each of our own personal responsibility for our safety. If we have given up our power, that was our choice. I am not trying to minimize anyone's negative experiences or dismiss any anger toward Max. But, none of us were victims. No one forced any of us to seek out Max or to train with him. No one kept us from stopping the practice either. We all chose to learn from him. We can all choose to stop the practice. If we have been damaged, we need to take appropriate action to heal ourselves. Life is risky. There are no perfect teachers. If we choose to investigate a spiritual practice, we each need to continually be willing to be responsible for the cleanup. So, we can still be hurt or angry at Max. But we also need to remember that we volunteered. Max also warned everyone ahead of time that his Kunlun was a possible rollercoaster. We need to take responsibility for the ticket we each purchased...

Master Jedi, I apologize if I came across as attacking you. I can seem aggressive sometimes. That is my warrior nature and I am working on it. That is not my aim. It is not my desire to classify you as I do not doubt your experiences. I disagree with your possible conclusions. In the book, "Opening the Dragon Gate" Master Wang Liping shares about these things The point I am trying to make is that the spontaneous movement has been highly over emphasized and detached from it's original purpose. Many in Kunlun gave up their control in order to have these blissful experiences not fully understanding that the purpose of the spontaneous movement is to reveal what is in the subconscious so that the person can effectively face and transform it through controlled stillness meditation. This is why people are having crazy incontrolled "negative" experiences. If it is indeed attracting negative entities, they are merely responding to the fact the the individual is using the spontaneous movement to give up control of their bodies. Kunlun has 3 phases. The first is the spontaneous, the other two are also necessary. Some may make the argumant that Max did not explain or make himself available to help. But ultimately the responsibility resides with each of us....

I understand the current context, but many reading this may not...

I have stood in the back and watched the crazy drama about kunlun for awhile. But since now people are inferring demonic intentions to the actual lineage, I feel it necessary to put the focus back where it belongs; ON OURSELVES! Some people were using the kunlun "bliss" to escape their feelings rather than face them. If anyone uses powerful energy techniques in this fashion, it is no surprise to me that they will encounter their own unconscious delusions. I do know that if anyone chooses to practice something as powerful as kunlun without taking the responsibility to keep control of their own unconscious garbage, then they are in effect surrendering themselves to their unconscious wierdness. Some people are angry with Max because they feel he did not do enough to guide them through their experiences. Blaming our personal experiences on the "Evil lineage masters" paints us as victims. This is not Tao. There are no victims in Tao. I have been involved in exorcisms and spiritual cleansings for over 20 years and I can tell you from experience that nothing 'evil' ever attacks someone without their conscious or unconscious permission. The first step in resolving demonic attacks is for the 'victim' to take responsibility for their unconscious projections and unresolved emotional issues. To me, the most logical explanation to what is going on is that the practices are letting loose some pretty serious unconscious things to the surface. It seems to me that what is missing here is the ability of the individuals to take control of their unconscious. For me, meeting Max was a great learning experience. It deepened my understanding of my lineage and confirmed some things I was experiencing in my practices. But I NEVER gave up control of my ego to him nor did I turn over responsibility of my health to him or the practice or the "lineage." I always kept an eye on what was going on and I always listened to my common sense to take care of me.

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I would pull up a chair and gratefully listen...

GIH is grounded? You mean the guy who, by his own admission only means 50% of what he says? Well, I suppose you are entitled to your opinion... It is true, I can be a bull-headed, aggro, pit-bull warrior at times. I am working on it... You're right. I have a strong personal connection to this issue. I have been burned by selfish students. But I have also been the sincere seeker who has been hurt by the abusive teacher... I AM angered by teachers who abuse their power to gain cult followers. I have seen it numerous times and experienced it myself once. And in every instance that I have seen it, the teacher said they didn't want money and just wanted to be friends... And in every instance that I have seen, the teachers either abuse the students or abandon them the moment the students don't meet the emotional or ego demands of the teacher and earnest seekers are deeply damaged by it. I have NO doubt that there are quite a few on this forum who are experiencing this right now... So what I learned and my main point I want to make is... that sacrifice in whatever form you want to use,.. money, service, discipline, devotion to the teaching etc... are necessary boundaries for the protection of the Student. And I wanted to send a heartfelt warning to students looking for a friend and a teacher, to stay away from teachers who won't accept payment in some form. There are predatory teachers out there with real skills and powers and teachings who are looking for students to rob energy from. These teachers do NOT represent real spiritual growth... So, I am not referring to friends sharing and discussing meditation techniques or good samaritans in the neighborhood mentoring kids for free or those who have no actual experience or training in authentic taoist traditions who think that reading alot of books and indulging in intellectual hair splitting somehow gives them some kind of authority... I am referring to teachers in real lineages of actual traditions of energetic alchemy. Anyway.. I am ready to drop this. I have overstated my points and I am bored with it. Those that understand what I'm saying are already in the choir and those don't agree probably never will... So, I'm ready to be done with this...

Very Baaad Juju.... Using a spirit to do tricks for you in this life gets you in very hot water after you die. That spirit then uses you for tricks in the afterlife. There is always an exchange....

As I suspected. All talk. I will let your words speak for themselves... (I heartily agree) How very convenient for you. You can say whatever you want even emphatically and dramtically IN ALL CAPS as if to underscore the literalness of your statement and apply it to anyone else but yourself... and when someone tries to call you on it, you can always point to this quote... I think I will just leave it here...