fiveelementtao

Kundalini is the accumulated Karma or human consciousness of the Soul of the individual. It is not the Soul. It is the karma consciousness of the person, the "self" consciousness of the Soul. It is the force that allows the Divine Soul of the person to become weighed down and incarnated into a limited human body. Without kundalini, our Souls would identify with the Infinite and not be able to be crammed into a limited human body. Kundalini is the compressing force of Karma that defines us enough to be able to have a personality. That is why Kundalini is called the "Mother". Because She "created" us and gave birth to our identity and person. So, if Kundalini is the most powerful force in the Universe for you, that is because you identify with your limited personality and it defines your entire existence.. The Chakras: The seven Chakras are not simply energy refinement centers. They are portals to the seven levels of reality. ( it is said that in whatever chakra your kundalini is when you die, that is the realm of existence your Soul will go to before reincarnating.) 1st Chakra: Earth-Base of Spine. This corresponds to the Earhtly realm of existence. Things, stuff, Authority figures. People who operate from this Chakra seek physical comfort. They relate to authority and parental figures. They are like small infants who need the love and approval of Mom and Dad. They are great workers who just want safety and security and guidance through life. 2nd Chakra: Sexual center. people in this realm want to express themselves and begin to relate to others. Through sex and romantic relations. This is also the beginning of creative impulses. 3rd chakra: Navel. Individuality, power, control. This is the realm of the warrior. The personality begins to seek independence. This person seeks to lead and control. This is the realm of the General. business tycoon, plitical leader. This is the realm of the soldier who bravely defends his family and friends. 4th Chakra: Heart. This is the realm of the religious zealot. The self has realized that it is not an island. So, it seeks to commune with Infinte Through the community. This is the realm of selfless religious love. The self seeks to commune with other people and Unite with "God". 5th Chakra: Throat. Here the Self begins to individuate again. It has realized the limitations of group consciousness and seeks to commune with "God" alone. This is the realm of the celibate hermit monk. This person is seen as a very wise and mysterious Guru. 6th Chakra: 3rd Eye. Here the Self has dissolved most of the boundaries between itself and the Universe. Here opposites begin to merge and ther is no more"I" and "You". The kundalini (Self) has moved through all 5 elements. Earth, Water, Fire, Air and Ether and has command over the elements. This is the Realm of the great wizard Gurus, 7th Chakra: Crown. This is the realm of Samadhi. Perfect union with the Divine. Here, the Self has release all attachments and is One with the Infinite. This realm is beyond description. At this point the Kunndalini (self) begins to descend back through the Chakras. When the Self has reached the Root chakra again, the person is considered fully enlightened. Now the person can mix with all peoples and relate to to them on any level without attachment. This is the "Siddha" the Rishi.

For all the grief I gave to Mak Tin Si, I have to agree with him on one thing: There are alot of people in the west who dabble in taoism, hinduism, buddhism and throw them all together into one pot not realizing what each tradition means and is designed to do. As one gets deeper and deeper into these traditions, it becomes important to better understand the purpose and focus of each. And it may become necessary to make critical choices as to what one wants to focus on. Because each accomplishes different goals. I know there are some on this forum who will disagree with me sharply and possibly take offense to what I will share. But these terms have specific definitions within a specific context of a specific energetic tradition. Kundalini, karma, shakti etc cannot be fully understood if taken from their original context. As I have said already, there is alot of misconceptions about what kundalini is even among most yogis. If someone has a powerful experience with energy and it is labeled as kundalini for you by someone else, then that is what kundalini is for you. If you have a powerful energy experience and you yourself label it as kundalini based on your understanding, it does not mean that the energy you have experienced is kundalini in the original context of the meaning. If you HAVE had an experience with kundalini and it is the most powerful energy in the Universe for you, then that says something about your focus and state of existence. Because Kundalini is NOT the all powerful force in the Universe. It is only ONE force. It is not God. It is not Universal energy etc... If it is that for you, either you are mistaking it for something it is not or your entire focus in your existence is still limited. When we understand the true defintion of kundalini you will see what I mean. I want to stress that the definitions I will share with you are not MY definitions. These are the definitions of the terms as understood by indian tantric masters. The point of all Yogic work is to move kundalini through the chakras and burn off karma so the aspirant can be free of illusion and attachment and not have to be reborn. The Chakras in Indian traditions do not correspond with daoist energy centers. Because they accomplish COMPLETELY different goals. Dan tiens in Daoism are the energy centers where the energy is stored, mixed and processed for higher development. (there are many others on this forum who can describe the function of the dan tiens better than I so I will leave it to them to explain) Chakras have a much different energetic function than dan tiens ot meridian points. What I am about to explain in the following response is the Yogic understanding of Kundalini and the chakras. I am not trying to state fact. Just the context of that tradition to better understand the function of kundalini, karma and chakras in the Indian traditions.

well said! this is the main hurdle to Shang Ch'ing taoist energy practices. acquiring and maintaining that mindset in Spirit Fighting is the most difficult. Once you arrive there, it is a whole different universe!

Santiago, my friend.... Until you and I agree on what the words Kundalini, Shakti, Shiva etc... mean we cannot have an intelligent conversation. In order to communicate, we need to have a common understanding of terms. I have trained with tantric Yogis in the Indian traditions. They have different definitions for these energetic terms than you do. But that is irrelevant because your students and teachers share your same definitions and it works, so it's really none of my business. I am sure if we were to only speak in Taoist terms to explain your experiences, I have no doubt we would be in total agreement. I could once again spend many paragraphs explaining your misunderstanding of terms like Shakti etc.. according to the context of the yogic tradition in which I learned them... But I really have no beef with you or your teaching and I have no desire to continue to play word games or argue about nonsense. I have the deepest respect for your traditions and for you as taoist and From now on when I see you use those terms I will do my best to put my history with those terms away and translate them into taoist terms so I can understand them and enjoy your wisdom...

good for him! I'm glad he has a place to share his knowledge. I will have to check it out! ( I mean that sincerely)

Good question Cat... you're making me think here and my understandings are changing as I try to answer.... I will answer from what I know which is spirit fighting. In the art that I was taught, in order for the Spirit Fighting energy to flow, I need to see my opponent as not having any power or substance. If I see him as having solidity or power, I will be vulnerable to his attacks and my energy will not cut through him. If however, I do not give him any power, the spirit fighting energy will slice through his aura and physical defenses. It all starts with mindset. I think the same is true with karma. In kundalini yoga, we are taught that our karma has weighed us down and has to be burned off in order to be released. In tao, we hear alot about how we can choose our own fate. So, If we don't wrestle with our karma, we are less likely to struggle with it. It's not a question of ignoring it, I think it is a question of just simply choosing to transform ourselves energetically. Instead of wrestling with our karma, we simply choose to transform it. The Buddha (who was operating from and Indian energy system standpoint) died an old, sick man. BUT he had burned through all his karma. Taoist masters are said to transform their energy and bodies so they can live forever or transport themselves bodily into the next dimension. The goals of Yogic and Toaist uses of energy are completely different. But in our modern, micro-wave new agey sweeping generalizations of energy work, we have blended everything together and many things have lost their original meanings and contexts. Kundalini is our karma. The state we achieve after burning through karma is one of awareness and compassion. That is why it is seen as the highest energy. Not because of it's physical power but because to be free of illusion and attachment, to be full of awareness and compassion is the best our souls can achieve. That is why it is seen as the highest energy. It isn't. Having alot of kundalini isn't necessarily good. It means you have alot of karmic crud burning up and releasing alot energy. The highest state is to be FREE of kundalini. I guess I am now understanding sean's quote now and I agree. Once karma has been burned through, we are free and our Chi can flow unhindered at it's highest level. When people have a powerful energy experience from Kundalini moving, it is because when karma is burned through it releases ALOT of energy that was previously being used to store karma. When we let it go, we are able to use that energy freely. So, that is why people have either blissful of frightening experiences when kundalini moves. Because kundalini never moves without karma being burned. So, many times when karma is burned people feel alot of energy and make the mistake of attributing the power to kundalini. The power is only a side effect of karma being released. It is possible for people to have kundalini move and not have a powerful energetic experience. So, in a way, if we have a powerful energy experience due to kundalini, it may only mean that we have more crap to burn through. It is the same with kunlun. Many times the people who have the strongest experience with kunlun are the people who have the most blockages. Most of us hear about kundalini out of context and we take the surface understanding of what kundalini is and try to make it fit into taoism because we want to have the "Best" energy. Taoism does not deal with karma directly like Hindu or buddhist systems do. So, taoist systems are not designed to deal with karma. We only deal with kundalini if we want to address karma. If Karma is not our focus, there is no need to awaken kundalini. This would explain partly why doing kundalini yoga and kunlun don't mix. The two energy systems were not designed to work together. They are seeking to accomplish two different things.

Hi Craig, Yes, kundalini, in my experience, is a specific energy. I respect the article that Sean posted, but I disagree with it as does most tantric yogis. I agree with the end result which is that when kundalini has arisen, it will disintegrate the blockages up through the chakras. But, in my experience it is a very definite, specific type of energy. Kundalini is about burning through karma. Nothing else. This is what most people do not realize about kundalini. Kundalini is highly overrated as an energy. It is alot of hard work and not much fun. Tao is much faster and more fun. In my experience, Taoist energy systems are SO different than yogic. Kundalini Yoga (which is not the same as your average Hatha Yoga) is a completely different method of energy enhancement than Tao. In my experience, Kundalini is not Kunlun or Jing or Chi or Shen. It is definitely in the spine and it is much more difficult to awaken than most people think. Chi likes to flow and will flow very quickly if asked. Kundalini is very resistant and takes alot of work to get it to move. And it falls back down very quickly. So, to make any real progress with kundalini takes alot of discipline for many years. That is why mantra meditation and yoga have very strict rules. Because if you miss practice or screw up, kundalini falls back down and you have to start all over again. In my opinion if I were to try and fit Kunlun and other downward flowing energy into yogic terms. Kunlun is the Shiva power. Y The effects of Kunlun and Mao Shan meditations are (IMHO) Shiva power. Kundalini is manifested earthly incarnated human experience. She is your Karma. In order to evolve she has to forget her attachment to personality and incarnated existence to make any progress. There is a definite progression with Kundalini as she moves through the chakras. At first, she ONLY moves up. If someone is saying that kundalini moves all over etc... it is not kundalini or they are experiencing the nerves REACTING to kundalini. She only moves up the spine and then back down after unifying with Shiva in the crown. When she moves through a specific chakra, the person has to learn the lessons of that chakra before She will move up to the next chakra. For me, I prefer the Shiva path of Tao, descending into reality rather than struggling to ascend. Bottom line, for me, is that kundalini is not part of the Taoist equation. And I prefer it that way. Kundalini is alot of hard work burning through karma. In tao, we don't spend all that time burning through karma. We seek release from Karma. Specifically for you and I in the downward path, instead of trying to rise up to heaven by burning through our karma, we are simply calling down Shiva to earth. It's alot faster and avoids all that karma burning.. That is why I abandonded kundalini yoga for Tao.

Kundalini flows from the Root chakra UP first. After reaching the crown, it then flows downward back to the root chakra. Kundalini by definition always starts at the Root chakra. If the energy is starting somewhere else it is not kundalini. It takes many years for kundalini to flow through the chakras. So, if someone is having a quick energy experience, it is probably not kundalini. It should be noted that Yogic energy systems are VERY different than taoist systems. There are inconsistencies with yoga that do not work in taoist systems. Kundalini in yoga is categorized as Shakti (feminine power). Yet it is VERY hot. It is always referred to as Fire. In Tao, Fire is always Yang. If someone is experiencing a cool energy, it is not Kundalini Kundalini is not just any power. It is the spiritual gravitational force of the human personality. Enlightenment in Yoga is when this power of Personality (kundalini) moves up through the chakras and evolves. I think what has happened is that in Yoga, kundalini is viewed as the highest form of energy so people in other systems who do not understand exactly what kundalini is want to use a term which gives their experience the highest reputation. So, we have alot of people ascribing the word kundalini to a powerful energy experience. In my experience, Kundalini is not part of the taoist equation. and for those who want to make it part of the taoist equation, they end up making up their own definitions of it in order to fit in their experience...

Yes, technically, any person using energy to achieve Yoga (union) is a yogi. Dude, you are making alot of assumptions about me. You know very little of my experience. In terms of yoga, You do not know where I have learned or how I have learned or from whom. You also know nothing of what I have experienced. I have not made any judgements on you, your experience or your practice. I am simply stating that at times you are using Indian yogic terms in a taoist context inaccurately. That is all. I am done with this as it is getting ridiculous...

Santiago, You're not reading my posts thoroughly or objectively. Once again, you have taken my observations on your use of the word Kundalini as an attack against your practice and you. I am saying that I think your practice results in the raising of kundalini. so, can we get rid of the defensiveness? You are OK. You're practice is OK. Got it? But, according to the original use of the terms in kundalini yoga, you are simply using these terms incorrectly and in the wrong order. However, Just because you are using the term incorrectly doesn't reflect on your practice or you. So, attacking my experience and attempting to compare it to yours doesn't change the original use of these yogic terms. These terms are very specific and have very specific meanings in their original systems. These are not my personal definitions. These are the definitions of the terms invented by yogis thousands of years ago. I am not creating these definitions. Nor am I trying to use them to fit into my personal agenda. You can check with any Yogi and they will tell you the same thing... But, since it seems that you have an emotional attachment to the way these words are used in your system, I will probably not be able to have a reasonable, objective conversation with you about this, so I will let it go. As does happen with language, the meanings of words change to fit the culture or time. It seems that Shakti and Kundalini are in the process of changing to fit the definitions of modern, non-yogic systems. Ultimately it doesn't matter what terms you use or how you use them. So, If your system works, that's all that matters. Your does,... so, enjoy.

Santiago, I have no criticism of your system. It seems like a very good taoist energy system. So, first let me say that if you are doing Kan and Li practices effectively, the Kundalini shakti in the spinal column will be raised. If this is the case then you can correctly call it KAP. I agree with almost everything you have said. My post had nothing to do with analyzing or criticizing the effectiveness of KAP. If it works, then great. But, if someone inaccurately uses the term "Kundalini" in a taoist context, I will point it out. I don't know what the attempted attack is for, I'm not TCM....I do know something of Yoga and yogic terms in energy systems. You are using some yogic terms incorrectly and applying them to taoist systems.(It's OK to apply them to taoist systems, but as a former tantric yogi, I prefer to see the yogic terms used accurately.) Kan and Li are not kundalini. This is a good example of the inaccurate use of the word "Kundalini". In yoga, There are two major types of Prana. Prana and Apana. Kan (water) is Apana (descending Yin Chi) and Li (fire) is Prana (ascending Yang Chi) Kundalini is awakened as the RESULT of the mixing of Prana (Li) and Apana (Kan) in the navel chakra (dan tien). That is when kundalini shakti is awakened and rises up Sushumna in the spinal column. This process is similar to Kan and Li in taoist systems. The yogis go about it somewhat differently but the end result is similar. So, if that is your understanding, we are in total agreement there... There is no Outward "heavenly" kundalini. There is only the kundalini in the spine and it is 100% earthly, feminine Shakti power (yin). The Heavenly is Shiva (yang). Shakti is earth (yin). Heaven is Shiva (yang). Kundalini rises to reunite with Shiva in the Crown Chakra. This is the problem when people try to use Yogic energetic terminology to Taoist systems. There are alot of similarites between Yoga and Taoism, but there are also alot of differences between the two energy systems. It is a romantic, comforting idea to postulate that Taoism came from Ancient yoga. But the evidence indicates that Yoga and Tao evolved separately. Chi Kung still IS part of Kundalini work. All yoga is Chi Kung. Chi Kung means "Breath, Energy or Spirit Work" Chi is prana. In yoga, we call Chi Kung "pranayama". which has a similar meaning to Chi Kung. So, by definition any work with breath, movement and prana is Chi Kung. I agree. And it sounds like your system is a proven energy system. No need to defend your system. I'm not attacking it the validity of your system. I am only pointing out your inaccurate use of Yogic terminology.

I don't know a whole lot about KAP. But, based on all the positive testimonials I've read on this site, it seems like a very good discipline. It doesn't necessarily "connect them together." It is something they all have in common. You are right about witholding semen in the beginning. In both Taoist and Yogic energetic practices it is a good idea to remain celibate (No ejaculation) for one hundred days. After a while, you can enjoy sex. But, being able to transform semen into the higher centers will aid in energy cultivation. But it is best to have a teacher to guide you through this process safely. IMHO, enlightenment is the ability to go through the journey of life, while being aware of all your feelings and desires. all the pain and joy. embracing everything that life gives you and be able to act and react to all circumstances from a place of awareness, understanding and compassion. Basically, IMHO, there is nothing more profound than the Golden Rule. "Treat others as yourself." In my experience, energy will not guarantee this. Little old ladies with no chi or kundalini are still able to be kind and helpful and understand their feelings and take appropriate action... and Yogic and Taoist masters that can levitate and create magnificent states of bliss for themselves and others can still be emotionally immature, selfish and cruel. For me, bottom line is whether or not, you can act from a place of love... I spent some years practicing Kundalini Yoga, tantric (not sexual) Yoga, Sanskrit mantra meditation. I have also been practicing Shang Ch'ing Taoist internal martial arts and nei kung for about 16 years. I am in the same Shang Ch'ing taoist lineage as Max (we learned from different teachers). Max has incorporated a couple other taoist lineage practices into his kunlun but it is mostly from the Shang Ch'ing school. I have found that kundalini and Shang Ch'ing energies do not work well together. So, I stopped all Kundalini exercises. I am now focusing almost exclusively on Shang Ch'ing Taoist practices combined with two Wu Tang exercises. I have tested a few different energy disciplines. I have chosen a set of energy disciplines that work very well for me. That is why I say there is no "Best" path. We are all different and have different purposes in life and have different needs. I have found what works best for me and helps be a happier person. But, I also understand what it is. Energy is only a tool. When my life is over, I will be a naked soul in front of the Infinite Universe. I will only have my awareness based on the actions and observations from this earthly life. Enlightenment, IMHO is not a destination but a journey. There is no finish line. After this life, if I am lucky enough to move into a "higher" dimension, I will still have to learn and grow. I guess for me, enlightenment is growth...

This is true but only in a general sense. Gopi Krishna's definition is a generalized definition of Kundalini. It is true that Kundalini and Chi are both Energy. Both Chi and kundalini facilitate evolution. But they are not the same energy. In Yoga, there are two types of general energies. Kundalini and Prana. But yogis do not interchange these names. When they want to talk about Chi they use the word Prana, when they want to talk about kundalini, they use the word Kundalini. They are very specific terms and are not interchangeable. Becuase awakening kundalini is seen as the highest energy to be awakened, it is understandable that people who are in other systems want a word to define the highest energy possible, so they slap the word Kundalini on it. Although I understand the desired meaning in that context, it is an inaccurate definition of the word. In Yoga, if someone means Prana , they do not say kundalini. However in today's new age definitions people have lumped all energy as Kundalini. All energetic work stimulates the movement of Chi (prana). But not all energetic work directly stimulates kundalini. Kundalini is an energy that is coiled at the base of the spine and is directly related to psychological evolution. Chi is the bio energy of life. So, it is possible that someone can have alot of Chi energy built up and Kundalini will still be unawakened. So, many people do breathing or Chi kung and feel energy move up their spine or feel heat in their hands and assume they have awakened Kundalini. But, they are simply mistaking the signs of Chi as Kundalini awakening. I have worked extensively with both Indian and taoist arts. and in my experience, neither kundalini or Chi will bring enlightenment. They can be helpful, but people with awakened kundalini can still be crazy and cruel as can Taoist masters... So, I do not subscribe to the notion that awakened Kundalini means enlightenment. It is just another energy. I just now read the KAP site, so I have a better understanding of what KAP is. It seems to me based on what little I read, that in KAP they are simply interchanging the word Kundalini with Chi. I have no issue with people calling Chi whatever name they want. But it is not accurate. So, I agree that both Prana and kundalini are energies that can aid in personal evolution. But they are not the same thing.

Put on the brakes! Wanting to know the "ultimate reality" is a huge red flag. You already are in ultimate reality. It would be best not to do anything until you gain some comfortability with yourself! Kunlun, kundalini yoga, or any other spiritual discipline is JUST A TOOL. There is no such discipline that will lead you to ultimate reality. You are already a part of ultimate reality. If you go into any discipline looking for "ultimate reality" you will be either very disappointed or easily deceived. This is not accurate. Kundalini is NOT sex energy. I would suggest more study about different energy paths. Each energy, whether it is kundalini or Chi or what have you have very different vibrations and achieve different results. If you mix certain energies, it can be harmful. If you are confused... take your time. there is no timer. If you feel like you need to rush to make a decision on which path to take, this indicates a desperation that is unhealthy. Take your time and maybe take a path for now which does not involve a powerful energy experience. These energy paths are not a super happy pill. They are serious business. I have seen alot of people with emotional issues seek to use energy paths as a way to run away from their personal issues and it only made them nuts. and eventually when reality kicked back in (because it will) they were much worse off than before... With powerful energy paths it is extremely important that one already have the tools to handle their emotions. Because powerful energy exercises can increase emotional states. If you are running from emotions they will be brought to the surface much faster....So, take your time... investigate why you feel the need to find ultimate reality so quickly. Get comfortable with yourself first, then choose a pathway based on a place of stability.... And in your case, I strongly suggest a path where you can have access to a teacher in your area who can guide you.

masters shmasters.. It's all relative... Be where you are...

Nobody is denying him anything! He has his own personal practice folder that he can post to a hundred times a day of he wants to. Nobody is banning him. He has been asked numerous times to simply put his multiple daily posts into a few folders instead single new topics. He can still be #1 poster if he wants, We are simply asking him to MAKE AN EFFORT to understand how to best use this forum. We are not asking anything from him that is not expected of anyone else. If he is going to run away from this forum and disappear simply because he has been asked to behave in a cooperative fashion, then that speaks volumes about his taoism.

For me the issue isn't about traditional versus modern eclectic. He can be as dogmatic as he wants. It's the lack of understanding about forum etiquette. He either doesn't understand or doesn't care or (most likely) doesn't care to understand. If he used his practice forum, he could post as many new topics every day as he wanted. And those that follow him could enjoy it.

Seriously... is there a moderator monitoring this situation that can explain to Mak how to use ONE thread instead of having to post multiple unsolicited threads each day?

He doesn't represent the majority of religious taoists. I encourage everyone to look at his lineage history on his site and come up with your own conclusion about him. I wish the moderators would make a SERIOUS effort (if they haven't already) to PM him and try to explain to him how to use the personal folder he has already been given and help him understand that the public discussion forum does not revolve exclusively around him...

I agree with what has been written. Since you have no formal training, you are not qualified to diagnose yourself. Your dan tien, (I'm assuming your LOWER dan tien) has NOT moved into your chest. You are simply feeling energy blockages there. I guarantee you, your lower dan tien is still in your navel. FIRST get yourself to a medical Chi Kung practitioner to balance your energy. THEN if you still want to learn energetic practices, find an experienced qualified teacher and STOP trying to figure it out on your own.

Yes. He has dubbed in some voice overs to cover some of the bad audio... I would love to see the stuff he left out. you'll have to show me someday.. I agree about the lineage Chi feel. I definitely felt like there were some masters hanging out and practicing with me. Even the little computer print out page that came with it made me high when reading it. I definitely got the feeling somebody wanted to make sure I investigated this form...

My wife gave me Winn's DVD of this form for Christmas. As soon as I popped it in and began viewing it, I started getting a really weird but very cool buzz just from watching it. I went ahead and memorized the form this evening and WOW! I highly recommend it. The moves are simple but it creates a double vortex of energy. You are going counterclockwise around a bagua in the short-term and Clockwise in the long-term. This set may look simple but it is creating a major influx of energy vortex thingie... I definitely feel this is more of a ritual than just an energy movement set. I got so high half-way through, I completely forgot where I was and had to eat something in order to ground myself enough to be able to memorize the whole thing. I suspect that the more energy one has built up, the more powerful the effect. I've been looking for a simple but profound movement set to wind down from my other martial sets. I'm glad my wife was led to get this DVD for me... I'm interested in seeing the other versions of this set out there...

I have performed some exorcisms in my time. There is one thing that I have learned that is the most important. Exorcisms and rituals are very helpful because it allows the psyche to acknowledge an internal purification. But, what I have learned (this may sound simplistic but true...) The best thing any oppressed individual can do is seek spiritual and psychological counseling. In my experience, all demon possession cases start when a tramautic experience or series of experiences damages the aura. This also damages the individual emotionally. The individual gets into a pattern of feeling like a victim. Then, the Universe seeks to dispel this victim idea by prodding the individual to work through the painful feelings and heal, but if the individual is resistant to overcoming negative feelings as a result of the trauma, they seek to avoid these painful feelings and stuff them down deep into the unconscious. This sends a signal to negative entities that the individual needs help staying in denial. Demons will come and make an energetic deal with the individual on either a conscious or unconscious level to keep them in denial in exchange for their physical energy. The demons feed off their aura and the individual is kept distracted from their own painful feelings with all the drama that demons bring. (I'm not trying to minimize the process, just my observations over the years.) In the end the individual must WANT to grow and heal. This is the real key. If the individual is not willing to face their painful feelings, they will not recover. Counseling is the modern way to seek help in growing emotionally. When the individual is willing to face their painful feelings, the demons will leave, because then the individual will be seeking to take responsibility for their issues and the demons have nothing to feed on... There is also significant evidence that demons are actually psychic projections from within the individual. In any case, the treatment is the same (IMHO) the individual needs tough love and some serious counseling. Exorcisms are also helpful becuase they signify the individual's desire to break the cycle of denial. I recommend any rituals with a combination of long term therapy... Hope that helps.. Mike

Gosh, I had no idea Lao Zi was a south african.

Ooops. Master Yoda already suggested it. I guess I should read entire threads before posting...