fiveelementtao

The question isn't whether they are unrelated. Certainly they are... The question is... Are they the the same thing? I do not argue your experiences or the quality of them. But you are imposing your taoist understanding onto yogic words. If you have experience from a purely yogic perspective and can make a comparison based on contextual training in each discipline, I would be interested in hearing your comparison... Because I am also interested in the interrelation.... I am not saying it doesn't exist, but I a saying if we are serious about making comparisons between different sciences that we take it seriously and objectivley study them in their own contexts and make objective comparisons with a scientific attitude. Otherwise we are just imposing our own agendas on them and IMO diluting each science in an attempt to make ourselves feel better by making everything understandable... A brain surgeon and a pediatrician have similar training but each has their own specialty. The pediatrician wouldn't dare to do brain surgery.... We should have the same respect for Taoism and Yoga...

Hopefully the sarcasm is in jest...I will assume you are asking because you honestly want my opinion. please understand, I am not attacking the quality or effectiveness of KAP practices, I do however disagree with many of their conclusions about the nature of the energy they stimulate... Why MUST there be Taoist literature about kundalini? Does that mean there MUST be yogic literature about fa jing in martial arts? It is a huge universe and there are many ways to interface with it. I do not agree with that assumption. I also disagree with you that Kundalini is refined Qi. That is not what yogis teach. Yogis are very familair with Qi. They call it prana. If yogis wanted to call kudalini highly refined prana, they would say so. They don't. They do however say that Prana can stimulate Kundalini. The assumption that Kundalini is Prana. This is an oversimplification that is understandable if someone is trying to make the connection between the two solely from a purely toaist perspective... So, you have opened a bigger subject which is... what defines a true kundalini awakening? Is it solely a personal energy experience? Not according to traditional understandings. I don't want to open a fight about Glen Morris... I have great respect for his teachings. He and his students have clearly created a very powerful and effective energy practice. But, as I understand it, he had an energy experience from practicing Taoist energy work. He then made the assumption that it was a kundalini experience and began calling his teachings kundalini teachings. It may have been, it may not have been. I don't know. But, I do not necessarily agree with his definition of Kundalini... KAP puts alot of emphasis of their definition of kundalini based on physical energy experiences. They also put alot of emphasis on their energy or Kundalini experiences being connected to enlightenment. So, that puts a huge cloud on any reasonable objective discussions about the actual nature of the energy they are stimulating... As you point out, Morris had an energy experience from practicing MCO and he made the assumption that it was kundalini.... If he had then taken that experience to a yogi to determine if it was kundalini or pranic in nature, I would be interested in that discussion. I am not making any judgements about the quality or nature of his experience. But, from an objective standpoint, I don't know if it was kundalini or not. I am also not making any comparisons about the superiority of Kundalini over Qi phenomena. Many people get very reactive when I point out that they are making blanket assumptions about yogic disciplines from a Taoist perspective because they assume I am making a judgejement on the quality of their experience. In other words, many people want their experience to be kundalini because of the hype that word carries with it and they believe that if their experience was not a kundalini experience, then they assume I am saying that their experience is somehow inferior. I am not... I don't put value judgements on ANY energy experience. I am not arguing against spontaneous kundalini "awakenings". I am sure they happen. But, this term has an assumption that I do not entirely agree with which is... When someone has an intense energy experience that has a powerful effect on their life, it must be kundalini.. right? Not necessarily. This is a modern Western understanding of Kundalini... Kundalini can awaken with ZERO physical effects. The problem is that Qi phenomena and what many people consider to be kundalini awakening can be the same. So, there is no way to know if someone is having a powerful Qi phenomena experience, or a neurological experience and calling it kundalini. There is also the emotional baggage attached to the word Kundalini. Because in recent times Westerners have aggressively sought after "enlightenment" etc... Kundalini has become a catch phrase for enlightenement. So, when someone has an energy experience, they want it to be connected to enlightenment, so they immediately attach it to a Kundalini experience. There is also a huge difference between stimulating kundalini and awkening Her. Awakening means that She has pierced the Knots in the chakras (which means that a person's perception has permanently been altered.) Stimulating kundalini and having an energy experience or feeling the friction in meridians as a result of merely stimulating Her is often interpreted as a kundalini awakening. So, the problem is that people want so badly to have the BEST energy enlightenment experience, so it is very difficult to objectively examine whether or not an experience is truly a permanent awakening or just a temporary stimulation. And foget trying to explore this difference with those who are determined to identify their experience as an awakening or a stimulation. IMO, the best book out there to really explain Kundalini is the Aghora series by Robert Svoboda.... He talks alot about common misconceptions concerning the nature of Kundalini. Now, assuming you are a KAP student and you feel I have somehow attacked the quality and nature of your experience, you are wrong. KAP is clearly a superior practice and I highly reccommend to anyone interested... Anyway, this is just my opinion. I know other have different opinons. I'm not interested in an argument.. But, since you asked, there is my .02

Hi Jeff, If you search the archives you will find some pretty lengthy posts I have made regarding the differences between the yogic focus and the Taoist focus. In brief: Here is what I have found....There are different types of Qi, there are different types of prana, but Qi and prana are essentially the same thing. To fully understand the different Qis and pranas is a longer subject that I am not expert in. But they are essentially the same thing., Kundalini and Qi - not the same thing. Kundalini can be stimualted by Prana- definitely. But it has a very specific purpose. Dan tiens are collection points for Qi. They are also places of transmuting Qi. Chakras are not collection points, they cannot be meditated upon like Dan tiens. When people try to meditate on chakra points, all they are doing is sending prana to meridians or dan tiens. It may have a powerful effect, but it has vey little effect on the chakra. Chakras can only be opened through changes in personality based on life events or upon changes in one's viewpoint of themselves in connection to the rest of the phenomenal world. This shift in understanding is what awakens kundalini. If there is no change in maturitly level in connection with the person's relationship with other people, themselves and the world, then it is by defintion not kundalini... Chakras are gateways to consciousness enhancement, not energy enhancement...

Informer.. Dude, I am not interested in a typical TTBs mudslinging contest. I have no personal grudge against you and I have no interest in fighting. If you want to stay on topic and can bring some reasoned points to your discussion, I am happy to have a discussion with you. But here is what you said: I think these things are the same I asked what you based that on. You said because you wanted to bring people together. These are different subjects and not relevant to the discussion which is whether or not chakras and kundalini is the same as dan tiens and MCO. I would, once again like to bring up Critical Thinking When is something True or False, when is something Sometimes True and sometimes false, when is something partially true and partially false. And most importantly... What are a person's emotional agendas in arguing a point and when does that emotional agenda cloud their ability to stay on topic and argue their point intelligently and in context... Anyway, not interested in pointless bickering so, I'm putting you on "ignore" mode. Best of luck to you....

that is not the issue. If your only reason for merging Taoism and Yoga is to make yourself feel closer to other people, I submit that you are not clear on your goals. What is your goal here, informer? What is your agenda in wanting to make these disciplines the same? To feel closer to other people? I have no agenda. If I found that they were similar, I would say so. I found different. And I appreciate that they are different. Your point was that chakras, dan tiens, Qi and Kundalini are essentially the same. If you believe they are and you have some basis to express that thought, then bring more than just wikipedia and your stray thoughts to the discussion. I never said you had to settle for just one. I suggest that in order to fully appreciate a discipline that one should ( in the first few years) focus on one discipline. If you try and squish them together in the beginning, you will only dilute them both and not learn anything of either. I said that I have studied (STUDIED) both for 20 years. So, I didn't settle for one. If you want to study both traditions, then STUDY them. Then bring your findings based on what you have learned from experience from qualified sources and discuss them. That takes time and effort. It's not going to come by making superficial conclusions based on a few books you read. If you are just wanting to make superficial connections without any real basis or understanding because it conveniently fits into your parameters, then what are you accomplishing? Other than feeling a little better... Are you able to practically USE that understanding in a practical way? no. Years ago, I really wanted to understand the connection between chakras and dan tiens, Qi and kundalini and I was not satisfied making superficial conclusions. I went out and learned about each science in their traditional contexts which has given me some understanding and experience of their differences and similarities. Others may have different understandings and if they can bring some real evidence based on study, teachers and experience to the table, I will listen... There are points of commonalities. There are significant differences. The reason why kundalini and qi, chakras and dan tiens are different is because they accomplish DIFFERENT purposes. If they accomplished the same purposes, (i.e. like pranayam and taoist breath work) then you have an interesting similarity to discuss. I am not trying to dissuade you from making connections and bringing people together. But there is a difference between these particular subjects. and knowing those differences is important if you want to make any real headway in your spiritual practice...

What do you base this on? wikipedia and your "thoughts"? If wikipedia is your source material for making conclusions concerning spiritual sciences that have taken thousands of years to perfect, then, well... Look, I'm all for finding common ground. But to impose similarities to satisfy our desire to simplify things, is IMO just laziness. These are sciences, disciplines that masters have spent thousands of years perfecting... I have been studying both of these traditions for 20 years. It's easy to stay in one discipline and then make suppositions on the other without any real knowledge. It's another thing to experience them both in their traditional contexts. I suppose we can make whatever cavalier suppositions we want. Based on what I see from here, the moon is made of cheese... I have never been there so I don't really know, but it makes sense... So, I guess kundalini is just jing, works on paper, therefore it must be true...

Completely wrong... Root Chakra is not the navel.... Chakras are not connected to physical organs in the same way, the MCO is. you can't simply make these simple cross connections between chakras and dan tiens. Chakras are psychological nexus points, not physical ones. Chakras and dan tiens serve a completeley different function. Don't mix them up... MCO deals with the movement of Qi. Chakras deal with the movement of Kundalini. MCO moves Qi energy around the periphery of the body. Kundalini is energy that moves up the spine. Kundalini and Qi are interrelated but they are not the same energy at all and are not interchangeable like you are trying to make them. MCO is Taoist. Chakras are Yogic. In order to even begin making these kinds of comparisons between different cultural spiritual sciences, you have to have a basic understanding of each science in it's own context. That takes years of intense study under a qualified teacher. You can't learn it from reading a few books. (most of the stuff in books is also totally incorrect!) If you want to learn about chakras, study Yogic sciences. If you want to learn about meridian and dan tiens and how they relate to MCO, study taoist sciences. This is what happens when people try to learn from only books. If you have respect for Taoism or Yoga and you want to make real progress... pick ONE path and find a teacher... I think it's great that people are excited about this stuff. So, if it has value to you, treat it with respect as a something that deserves real study and effort. If this stuff could be figured out by reading a couple books in a few weeks, then our ancestors would not have spent lifetimes devoting their lives to learn it. my .02

I agree with you that modern English speaking westerners have lost their ancestral, shamanic connection to these words because our ancestors allowed themselves to become hijacked by the over-intellectualized greeks and roman philosophers who paved the way for the imperial christian way of thinking which dominates our modern Western mind. But, I disagree with you that the Old English words themselves are BS. If we study their proto-germanic roots, we will find a very powerful shamanic path through our ancestral tongue... my .02

Below is a post I put on my forum. I will post it here too if any are interested. http://www.dvds.thunderwizard.com http://www.wyrdshaman.tk Go Here for more info on DVDs Thanks bums, for your interest, Mike

insightful, intelligent post dawei... My observation as well... (in terms of the communication at least) But I think you may have your brain hemispheres mixed up. Right brain is intuitive, expansive and emotional. Left brain is literal, intellectual and dualistic. Left brain controls the right side of the body and right brain controls the left side of the body. So, instinctual understanding of the body is reversed when we are talking about the brain hemispheres. My experience of forum interaction is that it is VERY left brain oriented. ( Which is why we see so much arguing and fighting on almost every thread.) It is also interesting to me that my osteopath volunteered to me that the body position necessary for typing on a keyboard stimulates the sympathetic nervous system. (which is the stress response or "Fight or Flight") Which is left brain dominant. NO surprise to me then that modern western folk are overly stressed... and even on a spiritual forum like this one, since one must sit behind a desk and type that everybody's natural tendency seems to be to pick fights...

HI Lux, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "pass the point of no return". Are you sexually stimulating yourself and then trying to use that sexual energy for MCO? Anyway, it sounds like you are trying to do some advanced stuff from things learned in books. I am going to repost something I posted in the Retention thread in the general discussion LUX, IME, the stuff in books teaching you to restrict ejaculation in conjunction with MCO meditation techniques are very overrated. Most of the sensations of Qi people get solely from exercises in books have little to no long term benefit. IMO, If you really want to open the MCO, find yourself a qualified Qigong, Tai Chi or Ba Gua teacher. Those disciplines if taught correctly will naturally open the MCO. IME, I suggest don't waste time ONLY with books. Find a teacher. Good luck

Doing it. The rest is just details.

no problem, we all make mistakes. But the fact that there are masters in the mountains does not by that fact mean that all masters ONLY live on mountains or outside of society. So, We have already established that you are incorrect about at least one thing, at least one master has never lived in the mountains or outside of society. If there is one, there may be others. And if there is one, then your categorical statement that all masters must have lived away from society is false. If one of your categorical statements has been proven false, then there is evidence that other of your categorical statements may also be false. IN such a case how can you be sure of any of your opinions? BY your own admission you were wrong about Max's master. It is no shame to admit mistakes. But, you seemed very sure of your opinion or you wouldn't have expressed it in such a categorical way here. So, then it stands to reason that you may be mistaken about some of you other opinons. When are things True or False? When are things both True and False? When are things sometimes true and sometimes false? What would happen do you think if you meditated on that concept in a cave for 40 days? Do you think your views would change? Wow, what a cool idea, maybe I will try this myself. (Without the cave though)

You did not respond to my question. You showed a video of a guy... doing something I don't know what. It may very well be states of consciousness but it does not support your statement that Taoism is about rejecting senses. nor does those states of consciousness prove that he acheived them by rejecting the world. And even if he did, it does not prove that his is the ONLY way to achieve those states. I accept that you believe this to be true, so I am not trying to talk you out of that belief. But if you are going to make these categorical statements, you have to back them up in context and logically. That gentleman in that video was not a Taoist, so that does also not support your argument... This goes back to critical thinking. When is something true or false, partly true and partly false or sometimes true and sometimes false... Tulku my friend, without any insult I am starting to question your ability to reason clearly.

Hello Tulku... Thank you for sharing your understanding with us. You speak with great conviction and it seems clear from your enthusiasm that you wish to help other seekers through your advice. This is a great and wonderful calling. We need more qualified teachers on this forum. You also seem to want to be helpful by exposing any false or unqualified teachers. This is a noble calling and I respect and admire this trait and the bravery it takes to confront false teachers. May I please respectfully ask you... How old are you? How long have you been practicing? Have you learned your techniques from any prolonged in-person training with any teachers? If so, what lineage/tradition was it? I have read in another thread where you share that you personally know some high level Taoist/Buddhist masters. Did you actually study with them? Have you learned solely from books? If so, which book(s) have you developed your style from? Sometimes a rare individual comes along who is self-taught or taught directly through spiritual transmission from spiritual masters or deities. It would be very exciting if you were one of these people. If you are one of these, please share how many years you tested your techniques in practical application and how you came to verify the benefits of your style and any abilities you mastered from that process. My apologies for so many questions. I do not believe in asking something of someone if you are not willing to do the same. I do not wish to seem like I am putting you on the spot. So, if you wish, I will also answer these same questions I have posed to you. If not, that is fine too... Thank you for your time...

Yes? and how is that disinfo exactly? I have been very consistent about that? Tulku, I am happy to have a discussion with you (if that is what you want). But, I don't understand your point. How am I giving disinfo here?

Not accurate. I don't know about all of Max's teachers but I am familiar with two of them. They do not live in mountains. In fact, the one that he claims taught him his highest techniques was born, raised and has lived in a large city in the USA his entire life. Is married and has children. They don't believe that. In fact, I know that they believe and teach the exact opposite. They teach that in order to achieve the Tao, one should enjoy life, be a functioning, participating part of society and practice your Tao in moderation. I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Very profound. I don't see anyone trying to stop you from doing anything. I myself would love to hear about any experiences you might have if you chose to live in the mountains with some masters. If you ever do a dark retreat, I would love to hear about it. I encourage you to do these things and come back and share them with us... I am reminded of the definition of Critical Thinking I reposted from wikipedia which says, (Critical thinking) is a way of deciding whether a claim is true, false, or sometimes true and sometimes false, or partly true and partly false. If I apply critical thinking to your statements here Tulku, I find them lacking. There is truth to your statements. What I find characteristically un-Taoist and un-Buddhists about your thought process and communication is that it lacks an understanding that things can be both true and untrue or true in certain circumstances.

Shepherd, Be aware that what I am going to share is my opinion based on my experience. I was celibate for 6 1/2 years. So, if I donwplay retention it is not from a place of no experience. I understand why many people want to practice retention. First let me echo that moderation is OK and you haven't failed or lost anything by just being human. It is still possible to practice retention by limiting your sexual stimulation. If your natural inclination is to release say, four times a week, try reducing it to two. You will still gain benefits from the practice even of you are releasing twice a week. If you are limiting ejaculation for energetic reasons, that's great but IME, whatever benefits you receive are not always necessarily energetic ones. Often times, (and this was true for me) retention had greater emotional effects than physical ones. And just 'cause you feel some physical effect that you interpret as a benefit, it may not mean you are actually achieving anything on a long term energetic level. If you find a good energy practice and a good teacher you may not even need retention at all. I can't stress this enough. IME, retention is far, far overrated. IME, a good energy system is far preferable than any kind of retention. IME, if someone or any system say that you need to retain to make gains in their practice, then I would say, find a better practice. They are out there. I am not saying that any retention is bad. But do not try to practice retention while stimulating yourself. If you want to avoid release, then abstain from any sexual stimulation. The techniques that teach one how to stimulate themselves sexually and then suggest that you then suppress the urge to release and then pretend to teach you how to move that stimulated semen up the spine or what have you is PURE NONSENSE. Once you stimulate the sexual fluids, They need to be released. if you do not release them, you will only heat up your system and cause damage to yourself. The unreleased, activated heated up semen stays in your body and rots. The physical sensations that people have of increased energy etc... Is only the temporary side effect of having heated up your system with excess yang energy. It will literally burn you out from within. If you are practicing any techniques that are designed to block orgasms like the "million dollar" point. These kinds of exercises can cause severe and permanent damage. So, I don't know what you mean by retention. But, IME, unless you have a physical, qualified teacher who can teach you how to achieve internal alchemy (which is what you mean by transmutation) then I would simply suggest that you reduce your sexual activity and then release when your urges become distracting. There is nothing wrong with choosing to be single and focusing on self-improvement. If sexual drives are strong, IME, you are much better off finding a loving partner and learning how to have meditative and healing sex. Books are great for alot of things, But not when it comes to sexual kung fu,. The vast majority of what you find in books about sexual kung fu was actually primitive forms of birth control that have absolutely nothing to do with internal alchemy. Find a good system and be a normal human. That is all that is required and you can make huge progress.. my.02

Thanks for your bravery in sharing your experience. Meditation is always a good idea. And while your experience with meditation helping your symptoms is indeed encouraging, I also have doubts that it will permanently cure your condition. I also strongly urge you seek out professional help while you have some clarity. It is not advisable for you to be treating this by yourself. If, as you say, your thinking and perception are impaired, it only makes sense that you may not be qualified to use that same impaired thinking and perception to cure the problem. Make sense? A broken tool cannot fix itself. For that matter, a working tool cannot fix itself. You need objective help.

Thanks, Mal, Clarity, and Infinity for the positive feedback. Hi Craig, Yes, I have experimented with lucid dreaming over the years and have had sporadic success with it. Where it has evolved to now is that towards the end of my 8 hours of sleep, I go through a couple hours of waking up and going back to sleep before waking up for the day and in that period, I will often times re-enter dreams and interact more consciously with them. I have found that in this period, if I wake up after a vivid dream that I can re-enter it and ask questions of those in the dream and get some surprising answers. This has been very helpful when I want to know the meaning behind dream symbols or for divination. About a year ago, I had a dream during this period of my sleep cycle where I met Odin and I asked him about something that I had been wondering about concerning the similarity between his hanging on the World Tree in order to receive the mysteries (Runes) of the Universe and Jesus' hanging on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. Odin's response shocked the hell out of me, he said... "Jesus was a coward. He sacrificed himself for someone else out of fear to appease his father and to satisfy the fears of a bunch of snot-noses who don't appreciate him.. and he whined about it the whole time. What a waste! I am a warrior and I eagerly sacrificed myself to MYSELF and deemed it a privilege. I was not fettered with any obligation other than to discover the Runes for myself and then I freely shared what I learned with all with no attachment of obligation. It would not have mattered to me if anyone listened to me. I died to liberate myself. No man can liberate another. Look at Jesus. After he sacrifices himself, he then wastes that sacrifice by making people feel sorry for him and then forces them to believe in him, not in themselves, but in him and then he relieves them of their responsibility to die to themselves creating a race of frightened, spoiled children. Had he made a real sacrifice of himself and owned it like a warrior and then taught his followers to do the same, can you imagine where the world would be today? What a waste!" He was actually much harsher on Jesus than that and these are some of my words to describe the gist of his message. But he did call Jesus a coward and I still cringe at that assessment of him... I experienced his value system as very harsh and I am still struggling to see it without fear and judgement. And yet he was also fiercely generous. It is a combination that I have not experienced in anyone before or since. I was in awe of his power and yet while I felt very little and inadequate he was well.. Fiercely welcoming and accepting of me completely and with no pity... Very hard to explain. He was pure in a way I have not seen anywhere else... I doubt that his differing value system would be considered 'spiritual" today. There was definitely a strong value placed on fearlessness and warrior ethic. He was very forceful with that message to me that for him, spirituality was the path of warriors and it was expected that one should be eager to die to themselves. What I discovered about myself here was that while I had been intellectually familiar with the idea of the spiritual warrior, it was muted in comparison with Odin's warrior ethic. He had ZERO guilt or hesitation about his "warrior-ness" whereas I really struggle with mine. I could see that 2,000 years ago in Europe, things may have been alot clearer and different in terms of what spirituality meant... You would think that since it may very well have come out of my unconscious that I would be relieved by that. I wasn't. I personally see Jesus' sacrifice as extremely brave and selfless and I woudln't dare to say or think such a thing about him. But I guess Odin can get away with it I like to see Odin and Jesus as emanations of the same cosmic consciousness, so to see the Universe as having ideological schisms within it's own consciousness is rather disturbing to me. But I suppose as a self-labeled shaman, I guess it makes sense if I also view the Universe (like the human being) as an aggregate of different energies that sometimes are in seeming conflict wherein one needs to seek a dynamic balance rather than a static 'peace'. I guess it also makes sense if the each of those sacrifices were for different purposes: One for the balancing of negative karma and the other for the destruction of ego to obtain knowledge. Anyway, my point being, that to answer your question, yes, I have found that lucid dreaming can be a very powerful way to intentionally interact with the subconscious to kickstart some serious personal growth. If my experiences are any indication, then my suggestion to those wanting to experience lucid dreaming, be prepared for some intense and sometimes unnerving revelations. Anyway, just rambling again.. Good to see you Craig,.. Mike

Wow.. Seth, bro... I see that you are having alot of feelings here... So, I will try to not take your aggression personally. So, please take a breath and try and read this without any defensiveness. I am not attacking you. I am merely sharing what I see in front of me... But this post of yours is only underscoring my point and further convincing me that my conclusions based on my observations may be accurate. Please, take a look at your communication here with me... Extremely agressive, very defensive and lots of accusations insults and "you" statements in there... such as... (insult. I could take offense at that but I won't) (Not true. Unsubstantiated accusation. I may have said some things about my experience of buddhists, but that is my experience of a few isolated individuals not a statement against the religion.) (another absolute statement that is not true. I never say that. In fact I say that I saw him to express himself arrogantly and with absolutism. That is not a saint) Can you see how your behavior in this post to me is exactly what you accuse Vmarco of doing to you? I saw it then and I'm seeing it from you right now... I never said that. I don't know who all the buddhists are... What I have said is that it appears to me that some buddhists have been acting in unison to defend a common agenda. and that it appears to me that some have been so emotionally reactive that they have not been thinking clearly. You are giving me this experience right now. You have not been representing my words or feelings accurately at all. In fact, I wonder if while you are reading this right now that you are feeling that as I write this that I am angry with you and trying to fight with you. I am not. I get it that you feel attacked by me. and I have warm feelings for you and wish you healing. But I tell you with all honesty is that my observation is that in this post you are very emotionally reactive and seeking to defend your agenda at any cost and that I am feeling very personally attacked by you because of it. That IS my observation and you can be offended if you like, but I cannot deny that is what I am seeing right now. And I'm not going to change my observations just because it might offend you. I believed you until I actually looked at some of the threads in greater detail. And what I said is that what I observed was that it looked that way to me. I am very sorry if my observation causes you personal offense. It was not and is not meant as such. I don't really know why you are personally feeling attacked since I did not mention anyone by name. I never mentioned you in regards to that. So, I don't know why you are feeling the need to defend yourself here. But I saw what I saw... So, should I lie just to gain your approval Seth? or should I not speak out about something just because it might make you angry? Should I be afraid that sharing my observations as I see them might cause you to attack me personally and insult me by calling me blind or give you another opportunity to mock my spirituality?... I just want to point out another observation. This post here sounds exactly like the sarcastic post from Simplicity rules where I believe he was mocking you. I am not mocking you now, but I am going to quote the first lines from each of your posts to show you how similar they are (SR) (SA) And while SR was being very sarcastic, you are being totally serious... Sorry, but I see what I see... I get it that you feel this way. But. Nope. I have not seen that he did anything this extreme or hurtful. You just did though... If he or anyone said that to me, I would be deeply hurt and offended. But, he didn't say anything like that as far as I could tell. I get it that you feel that he spoke that way and I am happy to agree with you if anyone can produce any evidence that he actually said anything like that. But, I haven't seen any hard evidence and no one has shown me anything like it. I have only heard that people felt like he was talking that way. There is a difference. Listen, I have no agenda with this guy and this is my point. I have no agenda with his views one way or another. I would have no problem whatsoever kicking him out if I saw that he actually attacked people on a personal level. I didn't see it...sorry... But I would like to point out that while you have said these extremely hurtful things about me in the 3rd person, under the guise of trying to prove your point it is difficult for me to think that you didn't at the very least want to say that to me to hurt me because you feel that I have attacked you. And again, I must say that you are proving my point. While this is not sufficient to warrant a complaint to mods. ( well actually it is but I won't in the interest of healing) I will put you on ignore also because I do find your behavior very aggressive, irrational and am deeply hurt by your tactic. Was that your intention? and based on your communication here, I have no evidence that you are able to have a reasonable disagreement when you are emotionally stimulated. So, for me, you are not a safe person to talk to and I need to ignore you for my own emotional well-being... Once again I will ask the question: How is it that some people who proudly wear the banner of a religion that preaches non-attachment, compassion, forgiveness and love be so aggressive, defensive and hostile? As I said, I know little about buddhism but as I understand it, it is when your enemy is being the most aggressive that you are encouraged to show the most compassion. What you and others have said is that because Vmarco was so hurtful to you that you had every right to abandon your religious principles. I do find that ironic and in that instance I do see that as being hypocritical.... Peace to you Seth.

I saw no such thing in the quote given to me. You may have gotten that feeling from it. (from what I was shown) I did not. This again is a great example of what I have already said that it seems to me people were getting a vibe they didn't like and then projecting onto his words in order to justify that vibe. Nope I got it. I just don't agree with your assessment of it. "As if" is YOUR interpretation of what he said. But, where does he actually say that? Quoting people to prove a point is not abusive. If those people he quoted said horrible things and they were representing themselves as Christians, then he has some verifiable evidence for his claims whatever they are. Now, if he personally accused YOU of being an evil christian, then you would have a right to accuse him of attacking you. BUt the question is if he was quoting people who you are accusing of being "wackos" (insult), then why are you taking it so personally. If you are not one of those wackos, why are you not able to separate yourself from them and have some compassion for the fact that many people have been hurt by those "wackos" and it has influenced their thinking against Christianity. If you are not one of those people perhaps a more tolerant viewpoint would help people like him to heal from whatever harm as been done to him in the name of Christianity. So, If what you are trying to do is PROVE to me that vMarco was abusive, then you need to bring me more evidence than just how you felt. I won't accept your personal feelings as fact. Here's another good example. You say you don't like it when people make assumptive statements about you. Yet, you are making an absolutist judgemental statement about me and my thinking based only on your feeling of me. Not on my actions. This is bordering on being an insult. (Well it is an insult, but I'll live.) "if you said, " I feel like I'm talking to someone that thinks he holds the entire truth." that would be OK because that is your feeling and I couldn't argue that. But as you just stated it, as a fact, I won't lie, I was initially hurt by that and started to get mad. I am hoping that was not your intention... Listen, I get it that this guy said some things that you felt were a threat to your spirituality. I get it that you probably feel very strongly about your chosen spiritual path and you don't like it when the things poeple do make you feel disempowered. I empathize with you. But I believe people have the right to their own opinons and experiences. IMO, as long as someone, however annoyingly is able to intelligently express their opinions and own them, they have a right to do so. Just because you or I don't like it, is not enough to ambush them... So, I disagree with you on this. But, I have lost interest in arguing with you guys any further about it. And it is clear that you are becoming frustrated with me and I am finding your statements to start to be hurtful and abusive to me..... So, I am going to put you on the ignore function. Nothing personal. We have both spoken our peace and it's time for me to move on. I wish you luck my friend