fiveelementtao

I find nothing wrong whatsoever with that statement. I personally agree with it wholeheartedly, but even if I didn't.. He clearly states that it is only his opinion when states, "I would say (certain people)... would agree with Gore Vidal... (when he says)" Which means he is sharing a statement of Gore Vidal concerning monotheism that he agrees with. That is not an attack upon religion or monotheism. He is saying that in his opinion, people who do not study religion critically and only act out of unreasoned emotion can be very destructive. If I state that I also think that monotheism has done considerable damage to society, am I attacking monotheists? No, I am a student of Jesus. He is making the argument for objective reasoning in regards to religion. I cannot agree more. You are starting to convince me that Vmarco may be a very smart guy... in YOUR opinion. But now you are being absolutist. Had you stated, "This is pure BS in my opinion." No one can argue with that because you are free to have any opinion you want. But you cannot prove that his statement is categorically BS. I'm sorry, my friend but the only thing you are doing (for me personally, I can't speak for anyone else) is confirming for me that your personal agenda has been threatened and is influencing your ability to think objectively. Is that an attack? That's my experience of you... I am glad you keep wanting to defend yourself because it gives an opportunity to some research into critical thinking in regards to stating opinions experiences and how that differs from insults and attacks... I have to say that I find your reasoning lacking in critical thinking. Now, does that offend you? I have not insulted you by saying "You are not a critical thinker." I am sure that in most instances you are. However, in this instance my experience of you is that your statements are not reflecting an attitude of critical thinking. You are free to disagree with that. You are free to be offended by my experience of you. But you cannot accuse me of attacking or insulting you... It's all a matter of perspective. I am more than happy to let this go as I have said my peace. But, until my interest in this discussion wanes and you want to keep trying to force me to see things your way, I will point out any fallacious reasoning you care to volunteer. You have suggested I am maliciously causing a ruckus. I see it differently. I am engaging in a reasoned discussion about my perception of some behaviors that I believe are a possible threat to this forum. You are free to see it differently. And you are free to say so. But just because I disagree with you does not by it's nature mean that I am here to cause trouble.

I agree based on my very limited understanding. I guess my understanding isn't necessarily limited, I just don't subscribe to some of the more intellectual strains of buddhism. (OK if others do...) I actually like alot of buddhism. Much of Tibetan buddhism, (to my untrained eye) resembles the Tantric Hindu roots it sprang from. I really like tantric hindu shamanism, so I have no axe to grind against the religion itself... Where I get lost is all the emphasis on achieving enlightenment and dependent origination and all that other stuff that just loses me in the first few seconds. I really can't judge it, because I honestly don't understand it and quite frankly don't want to. My first and only knowledge of buddhism comes from the Fire sermon. I get that. In there Buddha specifically states that he has no interest in teaching the nature of the soul or life after death etc.. He says that the only thing that he teaches is that Attachment Causes Suffering and nothing else. So, I do find it confusing that some organized buddhists sects teach so much stuff on the nature of the self, enlightenment and the after-life. That seems to go in direct opposition to the fire sermon. To each his own I suppose... IF I were to call myself a buddhist, I would probably have to call it "Fire Sermon Buddhism" or something. Because based on what I read there, I can be a buddhist while practicing any other religion I choose since, that sermon said nothing about anything except that attachment causes pain and if you want to be happy, seek to reduce and eliminate attachment. As I see it, just about every religion has that same goal. From that sermon, Buddha seemed to be more psychotherapist than religious leader...

Let's talk about Disinformation. Because there is alot of it going on here right now. I have not seen ANY religion bashing by anyone. I have seen some healthy albeit harsh criticism by self-proclaimed buddhists of the application of certain doctrines within that religion. I have seen buddhists strongly identify themselves personally with their religion and who seem to be extremely attached to their own interpretations of that religion who can't seem to tell where their personal identities end and their particular brand of that religion begins who speak as though anyone who criticizes their understanding or application of that belief is somehow attacking an entire religion and marginalizing peoples religious rights. I have recently heard about "gangs" of buddhists running around this forum. I never saw that before because I had no interest in buddhism. Yes, I encountered the rare hyper intellectual buddhist from time to time who wanted to drag me into intellectual nonsense debates, but I merely would say, "no thank you" or put them on ignore and go my merry way. I saw what appeared to be taoists complaining about buddhist absolutism and self-superiority, but I just took that in stride as the actions of a few religionists. But now I am seeing what appears to be a buddhist gang in action. I am seeing what appears to be fellow buddhists acting in a concerted manner to "show someone the door" for, and I am quoting here..."never having any endearing moments" and for "having a condescending attitude." Which seems to apply to alot of people including some buddhists. I am seeing what appear to be buddhists rallying around each other to protect and justify aggressive hostile behavior because it suits their particular agenda. I am seeing what appears to be buddhists who believe that simply by the nature of their religion, they deserve to be treated differently and have the right to break rules that they wish to apply very harshly to others. I am seeing with my eyes once again why I do not identify with any organized religion. Thank you for that... I would like to believe that if I were a Buddhist and even if someone whom emotionally I related to was caught in a moment of semi-justified defensive anger calling another forum member (and apparently a fellow buddhist) an "asslicker" I hope that I would have the objectivity as a buddhist to call foul on it. I find it so incredibly ironic that the religions that preach the most about love, tolerance, forgiveness, equality and patience have members within that religion who seem to have more difficulty applying those values that they preach than those who do not. I would just like to publicly say that I do not believe that any religion has the right to be treated preferentially on this forum or anywhere else. And as long as rules are being applied and enforced to forum behavior I would like to propose that along with prohibiting insults and attacks against religions, I submit that we also prohibit the preferential treatment of any religion over another and make it permissible to have the right for anyone to dissent and criticize any religion if they choose without it being classified as "hate". There is a difference between religious dissent, criticism and religious persecution... Just to be clear, I am not in any way attacking any religion, I am however criticizing the behavior of some people who happen to be religious. I hope that distinction is not lost on anyone... This has been very entertaining and informative. I couldn't have written the script better myself if I had tried... BTW, thanks to Mods for making an appearance...

Cowtao is perfectly capable of defending himself without that. I know because I too can type and know how long it takes to type a sentence after thinking it. If this were an inperson situation, that would be different. Because mouths can fly very fast... But typing on a keyboard takes conscious, deliberate decisions. He had time to filter his thought appropriately... I too am a martial artist and I have taken a vow to never consciously harm anyone under any circumstances unless I am in mortal danger. CT was never in mortal danger and did not need to say those things. I support his right to defend himself in any way necessary. And yes, this is a perfect example of what we are talking about in this thread and I find it... Amazing! that in this context, in THIS thread someone feels the need to act out the VERY thing that we are all discussing and seeking to resolve on this board. The mods are going to whatever they're going to do. I will not hit the complain button but I will be watching to see what they do... and will make whatever judgement of them I make. This whole thing started because a bunch of people wanted to hold some newbie to standards (That I think are good) but clearly are not willing to follow themselves... In the beginning of all this I did not buy most of the impressions some people had about cliques and favoritism, but as more is being revealed, and I simply watch what is objectively happening in front of my eyes... My views are changing rapidly... I will be interested to see what happens...

IMO, That was not direct. I am being direct with you right now, but I am in no way seeking to hurt you or personally insult you. My criticisms have purpose and context. Your remarks whether you feel them to be justified or not that I quoted were merely punitive and insulting. I find your reasoning very convenient and malleable to your emotions and situation and not at all reflecting what little I know of buddhism. If you truly are prepared to receive a suspension and it was worth it to you for whatever pleasure you got out of it by calling someone an asslicker, then I guess I can at least respect your commitment to follow through... Within that same spirit of truthfullness you are leaning on, as a forum member, I must tell you that I find your behavior in this particular instance personally offensive to me and I find your actions here hypocritical in the extreme. As a forum member of your standing, I expect you to be able to express your feelings in more constructive ways. If not for the benefit of the person you are directing your comments to, then for the sake of the rest of us who have to read what you write. I know you understand my reasoning and would probably agree with me in any other instance that you yourself did not have an emotional investment in... That's it for me. I have enough drama for now. Blessings all...

We're not in the pit, we're in the general discussion area. Yes, SR was being very acerbic and sarcastic but there was substance and context to it. I laughed because there have been some buddhists who have come onto my threads and been sickeningly superior and condescending. AND I can see how CT was offended if directed at him I can't say that I myself wouldn't have been offended by it if I were on the receiving end of it. But, Jeez! Asslicker? Since when is calling someone an "asslicker" speaking your truth? I was just making an innocent observation earlier about buddhists hyper sensitivity, but now I am thinking perhaps some buddhists feel a special privilege when their religious views are threatened. Anyone else seeing the irony and possible hypocrisy here? Forgive me CowTao but I find it outright hypocritical of you to work so hard to defend the banning of someone you claim was personally insulting and attacking people when you now feel you have the right to call someone an asslicker. for ANY reason... I fail to see the constructiveness of that. You've called me on my BS before and I respected and appreciated you for it. I'm calling you on yours here... C'mon mods, where are you? Do I have to hit the complain button before someone steps in here? If this isn't a blatant violation I don't know what is...

Woah nilly! WTF? What happened to this being about not personally insulting people? I personally like you CowTao, but this is not OK at all.... Can any mods care to explain why this is OK? I will now be very interested to see how the mods react to this....

ROFLOL! Thank you Simplicity for your immense compassion. You used some big words there... is brahmavihara bad? I like worshiping Brahma alot! Is that bad too? I don't know... Can I have my own category? or is that too unmanageable? In all honesty, for the first five seconds of reading your response to me..., I got really offended and began mentally preparing my long-winded defense... until I took action on my new rule to try (don't hold me to it) and re-read the post before replying... Yes! I publicly and unreservedly admit that I am a complete and total idiot when it comes to Buddhism. I do not get it at all and do not understand it. It is way, way, way over my head. Other than the "attachment is pain" thing (which I guess most other religions also have in some way or other) And I am totally OK with that fact and the fact that other people do get it and choose to follow it and get great benefit from it. Since you bring it up, religion is the reason I am now a self-proclaimed shaman and animist. And as such, at least in my non-binding interpretation, there is no such thing as a "right or wrong" religious belief, There is only the framework of belief that anyone chooses to operate within. And as a Shaman any framework of belief is only required to work for you. Therefore, everyone can have their own different framework. and what's more... you can call it by whatever you want and still be "right" if it works for you. As an animist, all I need to do is seek a state of dynamic balance with my environment and I don't have to worry about achieving enlightenment, immortality or nirvana. That's way too much pressure for me and I honestly have never seen anyone come even close to it... Which is why I don't believe it exists except as a goal to make people feel safer in an unsafe, immense Universe.... BUT! that's what I tell myself to justify my chosen framework of belief... You all are free to believe however you wish.... I must admit that I do enjoy watching religionists get all bent out of shape when someone is accused of having "No idea what true ________ism is." Or when someone's religious beliefs are labeled as "rubbish." In my world, you can completely reject all tenets of accepted buddhism and call yourself a buddhist if you choose. I don't think he would mind and in fact, I suspect that he would approve... I suppose my sacred cow is probably Qigong technique. I do get pretty high and mighty when people talk about qigong technique in ways I find "incorrect." Although... Qigong is a physical exercise as opposed to an intellectual belief so... Hmm, Perhaps I need to look in the mirror on that one... OK, carry on....

So, I had taken other peoples' word for it concerning Vmarco and previously assumed that he probably deserved his banning for something I didn't see. But, as this discussion has progressed and others have chimed in, I decided to look at this thread again more closely and one other thread cited as an example of his offense... Please bear in mind that I have no feelings about him or his views one way or another other than I don't understand or resonate with anything of his that I read. It sounds like most other intellectualized (my judgement) religious blah dee blah I read here... Nothing against it, it's just not my thing. I remember that the first time I read one of his posts, I got a strong vibe of arrogance and that turned me off. When I saw it was about Buddhism, I just ignored it because it's not my deal. But this time around, instead of reacting to whatever vibe I experienced, I made sure to actually read the content without any projection. And it was no different than anything else in that vein. So, are people reacting to the vibe instead of the content? Seeing as how I don;t understand any of the content, I have to admit that I was only reacting to a vibe. And I realized that a vibe is not enough to condemn someone. Anywho, other than being very opinionated and expressing his opinions with absolutism (I'm certainly guilty of that)... I can't for the life of me find where he was any more insulting than anyone else! He sounds exactly like a handful of others on this forum. In fact, if I am to be honest in my limited observations, it was (at least in the threads I looked at) other people who didn't like his posts that were clearly insulting and attacking him... Maybe there is still more that I missed. Maybe he said some really nasty personal stuff. but I gotta be honest here... I didn't see it... The only possible personal attack I saw would have been the line about conservatism being an illness, but, seriously... In many other threads that could easily be laughed away... From what I've seen, the only other person to come close in terms of generating this level of dislike was Starjumper. And he was much worse than this guy by far. Now, I am not a buddhist. It's not my thing. I don't get it. and whenever the "deep" buddhists threads get started, I leave 'cause it's way over my head. There are some buddhists on this forum I respect and like, but I gotta say some of you were the ones I saw being very personal and insulting and it makes me wonder if it wasn't because your religion and your interpretations of that religion were threatened. As I have re-read the two threads where Vmarco has pissed people off, what I see is mainly Buddhists getting really, really miffed at a guy who is expressing opinions about buddhism that apparently doesn't fit into their interpretations and when he defended himself with more absolutism, you guys got really mad... (That's just what I saw) Since I'm not a buddhist, know close to nothing about it, I don't have any sacred cows to protect. I'm just putting it out there for you guys to consider. Is your extreme dislike of this guy because he's an arrogant blasphemer? A few who spoke up to defend his banning specifically said that they took great personal offense to his absolutist attitudes and interpretations of buddhism and their experience of him dismissing their interpretations of buddhism. I am finding this ironic that the religion of compassion and non-violence (in this instance) acted (in my limited observation) like a fundamentalist religion where the arrogant blasphemer was shunned... There is only one aspect of buddhism that I understand and like which is "Attachment leads to suffering." (I hope I got that right) And what I have seen is someone who successfully threatened some peoples attachments to their interpretations of "their" religion. I know for me personally, when I have introduced some unorthodox discussions (Like Teutonic shamanism) that I threatened some people's sacred cows and I have had to wade through alot of attacks and insults of all kinds and it has made me hyper sensitive (apologies to Seth). I have been working lately to try and remember to re-read others posts to me before I react, because I have seen that I can project past stuff onto others' otherwise benign posts. I think that some here have done the same thing in this instance and overreacted which may have put an already defensive person on greater defense and created an escalating scenario of everybody projecting, defending themselves and going back for revenge... Sorry guys, the fact that he was absolutist, arrogant, defensive, blasphemous and aggressive is NOT (IMO) sufficient grounds for banning... Just putting it out there for people to consider....

Despite my recent dispute with moderators... This forum has changed so much over the last year or so that I don't know that it can flourish without some serious moderation. My only contention is that moderation, while necessary ,needs to be equitable and consistent. If moderation is going to be strict, it needs to be strict for all. If lenient, then lenient for all. Make a choice and commit to it... But in the current forum we have, I think moderation can be helpful. I have only been here for 3 years, but this place has changed radically since I got here. When I first got here although there were a few bad apples causing a ruckus and no lack of drama (including my own), many were sincere long time practitioners who focused on esoteric energy work. I see now that I got here relatively late just as the old guard was leaving and the new younger crowd was coming in. IME, the maturity level and knowledge level has decreased exponentially over the last year and am finding it increasingly more challenging to avoid bashing all the nonsense I read. I am sure there are members who do not fit into this newer category but I do not hear from them as much. They seem to have retreated into their own practice forums. Some of the old timers whom I respected that were here when I got here have told me that they have packed up and left because of the current environment. IMO, We now have alot of teens and young adults here who have little to no actual experience but no lack of pride in their book knowledge. I think alot of people come here hoping to find a short cut to enlightenment or spiritual power etc... So instead of it being a place where people who work hard to seek out real training and experience and then share that real-life experience with like-minded people, instead we have the internet generation who want to be directed to the latest book that will give them some magic pill to make them the next John Chang and then engage in intellectual semantics about what they have read but not actually achieved... At least I find this to be true with the general discussion forum. I suppose other sub forums are different... But, if we are talking pet peaves, My biggest one is the passive aggressive type already mentioned by a few who wear the veneer of spirituality, love and peace but reak with suppressed anger and insecurity. . The whole idea that spirituality means that one cannot have any negative feelings has fostered a society that is highly unconsciously passive aggressive. I am aware that I myself am aggressive, but I do try to be conscious about it and keep my aggressiveness in context and on topic and hopefully constructive... However, my biggest peave on the discussion forum is when someone wants to challenge me on some issue I have raised or discussed and it's clear that I have pushed some major button, but instead of just simply saying, "I disagree with you, 5ET and here's why..." They want to couch their opposition in the form of a passive aggressive "spiritual" question like, "Gosh 5ET, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge (like I actually want my rear kissed), but what about x, y and z? Spiritual guru so and so says different. What is your view?" And then, like an idiot, I begin spouting my views thinking that this individual actually was interested in my opinion when what was really going on was that the person wanted to lure me into an intellectual argument and lace the conversation with passive aggressive, veiled insults while pretending to actually care about my opinion... I say, If you're going to challenge someone, go ahead and do it and own it. Just be conscious and constructive about it... So, now I find myself asking people, "Are you asking me because you want to know my opinion or because you want to challenge me and lure me into an argument? If so, I'm not interested." Or even worse is the Drive-by-insult, where someone will attack something I have said, try to hide the attack within their post and lace it with judgements in the third person but not have the courage to mention me by name. My favorite one is that apparently I am "patriarchal." Anyway, just venting... It would be nice to find a way to attract the serious seekers here and not the forum junkies. Other than my own, this is the only forum I visit. I hope that this forum stays a place of value for me...

Hi Bums, I have decided that forum interaction via keyboard communication is downright evil... So, for the foreseeable future, I am retiring from the usual forum related left brain ego jousting, semantics, book knowledge theory nonsense. From here on out I propose a thread where we only share right brain active activities that help our cultivation. No theory, no competition, no jousting, no intellectualization... just fun healing practices that we can share with each other. Here is my first contribution. My thanks to those who have sent me encouraging emails. From here on out for the foreseeable future, I will not be engaging in any text communication on the forum. Anyone with questions about my practice or views can email me. Anyone interested in what I practice, can follow the links in my signature. Anyone interested in training with me can contact me... Peace and blessings to all...

woops! double post

Has he been banned for a week? Why? I peeked into this thread and read this and assumed he had said something worthy of being banned so I actually read all his posts(hoping for some cheap entertainment) looking for the abusive or offensive posts that would merit such a disciplinary action and I did not see it. IME, a large percentage of the posters on this board are opinionated, hyper-intellectualized, immature and argumentative who become more hostile when confronted and tend to retreat into their ego and become entrenched in defending themselves in progressively irrational self-referential logic. ( I am certainly guilty of this) But... that is a HUGE chunk of what TTBs is these days. And (in this thread at least) I found nothing of V Marco's posts that sits outside of the TTB's accepted norm. So, how does that merit this kind of discipline? Am I missing something? Was there another thread where there was more abusive behavior? As I read the thread, I also observed that many people chose to continue to react to his arguments and further provoke his entrenched aggressiveness and defensiveness by continuing to engage with him. There is an ignore user function that I use quite alot if someone becomes annoying. I myself have suffered far worse, very personalized public attacks (one recently which I brought to a mod's attention, which was promptly mimimized and explained away as harmless fun). I took it in stride as meaning that TTBs was seeking to have a more hands-off approach. But this banning has me rethinking that and wondering about the objectivity of some moderators. I firmly believe in disciplinary action when merited, but if being annoying and argumentative is the only reason for such action, and if we are to be equal in our justice, then from my computer screen, we would have to ban 75% of all posters on TTBs

I 100% agree with you. But you are raising a different subject. No one is suggesting that any of the deities are confined to any locales. The discussion right now, is centered on the language of the names of some of the deities in Tibetan Buddhism not the essence of them... and how these particular names in Sanskrit were introduced into Tibet. My opinion is that those with sanskrit names are most likely imported (at least in name not essence) from India. That however has nothing to do with the essence of the deity in question or where they reside in the Universe which is another subject entirely however worthy of discussion it may be....

The problem with people is feeling the need to tell others what their problem is... And now I have just implicated myself as having the problem... How did that happen?

Not offhand. Let me know if you find any. From what little research I have done, you sort of have to choose between buddhist sources or Hindu sources. IMO, buddhist sources are extremely biased and want to Buddhicize everything. The Hindu sources are biased too, but IMO, not as much... But, IMHO, if a deity were truly an indigenous Tibetan deity, the name would not be in Sanskrit. I suppose they could Sanskritize any name they wished, but Tibetans still do have indigenous deities without sanskrit names. So, it is a reasonable (although not infallible) assumption to me that any indigenous Tibetan deity would not have a foreign name... But if any source can be truly independent, I would be very interested in learning what they find...

Yes. Akshobhya is a form of Shiva that was incorporated as a buddha into Tibetan buddhism. As I understand it, He is the Shiva aspect of Brihaspati or Brahma related to the planet Jupiter.

Yes, My break. I call stripes... Nope. It is a free Universe and you are permitted to make any claims you like and say and think whatever you like. I hate physical violence and I do not recommend it under any preventable circumstances. Is that wrong of me since I am also a martial artist? Peace

Stiggie... You are taking this way too personally. I am getting the feeling you are not reading my posts thoroughly. go back and re-read my posts again without the defense. I am making no claims of any kind. Nor do I oppose anything you are trying to do. In fact I have encouraged you to please disprove this stuff. ( if that is what you want to do) Stiggie, Because this was your thread, I peaked inside and wanted to chime in because I like and respect you and you have always struck me as a levelheaded, objective person. If this were one of the thousand other nonsense threads about this stuff, I would have ignored it. I didn't come in here to bash you. I am honestly sharing my experience with you. Do with it what you like... I mean exactly what I say and I will say it again. Based on my personal experience....If what you want to do is personally experience this phenomena and then be able to replicate it, IN MY EXPERIENCE, you will have much better results if you simply go and try to learn it with an open mind and have fun. IN MY EXPERIENCE, if you try and "prove" it, you most likely will not be able to get any real scientific proof that will be universally recognized as proof. If on the off chance you find a real practicioner who is willing to allow you to put them in your lab experiments and on the off chance they have any abilities, you will be frustrated with the results. Unless they are only exhibiting tendon strength and calling it FaJin, then you will easily be able to disprove it as anything other than good body mechanics and the laws of physics. I predict (if they are for real) that conclusive proof will evade you. In the end, you will only have your personal experience and you will not be able to prove it. If you try and prove it and you are able to have a personal experience, your mindset of trying to prove it will prohibit you from being able to replicate it. That is my experience. I mentioned the right brain, left brain thing because when I was training, while I was able to experience the phenomena passively while analyzing it, I was unable to replicate the phenomena unless I was deep in my right brain. I also didn't say you were 'full of anger," I said that your desire to challenge people is based in anger. I get angry with people that I feel are frauds too. I am furious with the Tea party. Anger has it's place. I am not judging anger. If you feel these people are ruining the reputation of Tai Chi, then you are justified in your anger and you should do something about it.. But if you want to learn it... it will not help you learn energy strikes... That is just my experience. You can get offended if you want but as someone on this board I actually respect, and assuming you really want to understand this phenomena, then I am sharing what I know. Seriously, dude, take it or leave it... It still seems to me that you have an intense personal agenda with alot of emotions attached to it. Otherwise, I think If you were really honestly just curious to discover for yourself one way or another about this you wouldn't put so much effort into all this experiment stuff. You would just go out and try and learn it. If you were firm in your disbelief you would just let it go. I never said there was anything wrong with your question either. I am not advertising myself in this regard. I no longer practice Fa Qi and I don't teach it. I don't care if I ever experience it again in this life. so I have no personal stake in this at all and therefore I do not feel the need to cowtow to your demand that I answer your question. I don't care about the existence or non-existence of these abilities. You do. Ask someone who has the need to prove something. I don't. Wow! what insinuations? What do you think I have insinuated that has you ready to become so uncivil??? I am not saying anything of the kind. I have merely shared with you that FROM MY EXPERIENCE as someone who has trained in this kind of thing for many years, that you will not make any headway with the analytical approach... That is all. You can argue from now until forever about the need for left brain this and that. And I will agree with you most of the time except in this instance and only based on my experiences, (If what you say is true and what you want is to either prove or disprove this phenomenom so you can either learn it or forget about it) I predict that your approach will not work for you. That is all. I may be wrong and will promptly and happily apologize after your search if I am... You and I are in 100% agreement here. Everything ever put on video ( including my old stuff that I heartily regret and would take down if I could) is total nonsense because it does not show what would happen in life and death combat scenario. This is what I have been saying. I am with you fully on this point. But you want to paint me as your adversary as someone arguing for proving the existence of this stuff. I am not. It means NOTHING. PLEASE disprove it. Whether it is real or not... It's worthless in the game of life and a distraction to real spiritual growth. Nope. Have you applied your skills in lethal combat? Do you still think they would work based on your training? What makes me different than you? I have proved my fighting skills in real life to my satisfaction regardless of whether they are "spiritual" abilities or not. They worked damn good against some pretty mean folks. I was not thinking about the supernaturalness of them and that is my point. I am trying to say that... whatever these Qi oriented skills are or not is irrelevant. Qi is a force just like any other. I may have a different experience of it than you in terms of Martial arts, but I don't consider Qi phenomena to be anything other than another force of nature like muscles or wind or electricity. Lou ferrigno would look like a god to 1st century pygmies. While we are on the subject, since you are putting these demnstrators on the podium and demand that they be willing to prove their powers in combat, then it is only fair that you also be prepared to test them yourself in combat. Are you willing to do that? Or are you only willing to put them under your microscope according to your parameters? That standard goes both ways... Stig, I have no animosity toward you. I am sorry to have offended you, I meant none... I wish you luck in your experiments...

I'm not sure what "books" you mean. I haven't nor would I write any books about this stuff. No. it is not Fa Qi at all. Fa Qi involves violent strikes. Looking at it, it would look no different than a slap or a punch. In the case of Fa Qi, the only person who knows the difference in terms of energy is the guy getting hit. Then don't waste your time. Save your money. First let me say that Fa Jin is no big deal. It is just tendon flexibility combined with proper structure and techinque. If you are a true Tai Ji player and you have been taught how to stretch the tendons and increase Qi through your form, you can reproduce what is on the video posted earlier. In fact you could learn to do it in one day. I think what you are trying to prove is this "empty force" nonsense, not fa Jing. The guy in the video is moving and would not pass your test. He is just moving very, very slightly. watch again, you will see. This other guy has a book and teaches seminars. You can practice fa jing all day on others. Why not go see him and tell us what you think? I would love to hear about his classes. Fa Qi will look just like Ali's phantom punch and people are still debating that whole thing just from a Western boxing perspective. So forget about proving Fa Qi. Listen, Stig. You are smart guy, how can you not see that this the whole idea of "proving" this stuff is ludicrous. IME, and IMO, You are at cross purposes with yourself here. If you want to see if this is something you want to learn then, go learn it and find out if you like it or not. Speaking from experience in learning this stuff and watching others try to do so, if one comes into this type of training with a "prove it to me attitude" they are operating from the left brain. at best they will experience it, but will not be able to replicate it. One must be able to tap into the right brain and have fun. You can't have fun if you are simultaneously trying to demand objective proof. That is an angry defense mechanism behavior that has it's place. But it won't help you learn. Try learning a musical instrument while being angry and "testing" the existence of music. As long as you are actively trying to to figure it out and "test" it with the left brain, you will probably not be able to replicate the technique. So as someone who has gone down this road before, I say, make up your mind: do you want to test it or do you want to learn it? If you think that you will be able to test it to your satisfaction and then turn around and learn it, you will have to accomplish a huge feat of mental gymnastics to switch mindsets. I have never seen anyone who thinks they can figure this stuff out be able to replicate it. You may be different. The best way to test it is to get hit. Then decide what you think. I am of the opinion that this is your real motive here. I can sense the anger. and it is understandable. I am in agreement with you that those who show this stuff off are mostly frauds and should be exposed. And if so, then go disprove it and take back Tai Ji for what it should be. You will be successful. Then you can go back to your training and promote Taiji as you like. As I said earlier, even if you are very respectful, IME, the anger you carry with you concerning the issue will weigh you down and you will not be able to replicate the technique. IME, On a physical level, the anger will get your energy trapped in your deltoid muscles and prevent you from releasing the Qi through the tendons from the earth and you will be forced to use your own physical muscle power instead. In terms of proof, I think that you are mistaken if you think that any "proof" one way or other will change anyone's opinions. Those that want to believe will do so regardless and those who don't want to believe never will do so no matter how much "proof" you bring. Sorry, but IME, that is the best you are going to get. You will only be able to prove or disprove it for yourself. The nature of the energy involved requires this. Again, I am talking from experience here. The only sure thing is that you will disprove it if that is what you want. If it is real, IME, you will never be able to prove it. (please note that the followng response is only hypothetical I am in no way promoting violence) Yes. Hypothetically speaking only... One would need to pick a fight with someone who has this ability and is prepared to end your life. if one could find them one must also be prepared to also kill them. If one were trying to kill them, they wouldn't care about the camera. If their life and yours is not at risk, the camera is a factor that will alter your findings... Guaranteed! A real fight is the only true test. That is what this stuff was designed for, not for exhibition. IMO, any "controlled environment" is BS because there is no real threat and that includes demo matches, cage matches, etc.... The only real laboratory is a real fight where you are in a fight with someone determined to end your life. Anything else is meaningless. Are we talking martial sports or martial arts? Martial ARTS is about killing. Tai Ji was originally designed as a killing art. The health benefits were a side effect. I think you already know this. Thanks for the honesty. So, now we get to it. You are challenging me? There is the anger again. I haven't indicated that I am at all interested in proving this stuff. In fact I have stated that I want you to disprove it if that is your real motive which I feel it is. I believe the whole idea is a distraction. I have already said that even if hypothetically it does exist, it means nothing at all. I have already stated that I don't agree with the whole idea of showboating any kinds of abilities martial or otherwise. I have stated that I believe it to be counterproductive on a spiritual basis. You know this. Why would I want to prove anything? How does that benefit me? Assuming I had these abilities, I would be injuring my own spirit simply by trying to gain your approval. So, why do you want to provoke me into having to "prove" myself by stating whether or not I can do this? You have now made me your adversary and I like you. You are the one who needs to prove or disprove this not I. So, I decline to answer as is my right since I have no stake in this discussion one way or the other. Honestly is there any answer that I could give that you would respect? I wouldn't. I already stated that IME, any teacher who would allow themself to be forced into proving themself to satisfy another's idle curiosity is very insecure and should not be teaching. IME, if you find a teacher who has these abilities and is willing to allow you to force them into proving themselves, they are dangerous and destructive people and should be avoided... Listen, Stig. I mean what I say. I am only sharing these suggestions because I have experience as one who has spent a lot of time learning in an environment where Fa Qi was taught. I am only sharing from my experience what will best help you if you truly want to learn it. I am not arguing for it one way or the other. I am not trying to promote it. I am suggesting that you decide one way or the other what you want. So you want to honestly seek this out to learn it? Or are you angry and skeptical and want to disprove it. Because IME, having trained in these kinds of environments for many years, If you want to learn it, drop the whole ego driven "prove it to me" attitude because the technique will run away from you just like stillness of mind will run away from a skeptical meditator who wants to "prove" the Tao. IMHO, I still don't think you have investigated what your real motives and personal issues here are. I could be wrong, but I suspect that there is anger and fear. And as a Taoist, you know where those emotions will take you. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you well and look forward to your findings... my .02

Forgive me. I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if I repeat something that has already been dealt with.. First off there is huge misunderstanding out there about what "Fa Jing" is. There are at least four different types of energy strikes. (that I am aware of) Fa Li (muscle strength) Fa Jing (tendon strength) Fa Qi (energy strength) Fa Shen (Spirit Strikes) The first kind can be done by any trained martial artist. Can be deadly but not that uncommon. The second kind is what most people think is energy strikes. It is actually using the tendons to deliver energy blows. It is extremely effective and Qi energy is part of it, but it is useless without good body mechanics and grounding. If someone's posture is off, the technique won't work or they will only hurt themselves as Qi can rebound back on the person. I am willing to bet the guy in the video (assuming it is for real) is using tendon power not Qi power. (I could be wrong) It is very effective and can only be done by someone who has worked to loosen the tendons and knows how to send Qi out the hands through tendons. The third kind is more powerful and more rare. But there is a misunderstanding about it also. demonstrations of Fa Qi look completely staged and ridiculous unless you are the one receiving it. I and my former teacher have tried to demonstrate Fa Qi on video and it always looked ridiculous. This is because people are expecting the recipient to fly backwards. If someone has true Fa Qi ability, the recipient will not move backwards but will fall (or most often) slump forward. What you see is the attacker striking the person or even slapping the person, you may hear a loud crack and the recipient falls forward. It looks really fake until you feel it for yourself. If you strike a heavy bag with Fa Qi, you may hear a slap but the bag will not move. If the bag moves, then it is not true Fa Qi. This is the kind of stuff that is most lethal in terms of Dim mak. The fourth kind is the real type of energy strike that does not need one to touch the opponent and is very rare. I have only have very limited experience with this so I cannot intelligently comment on it. So, Stig... I'm a little confused as to what your motive is. Do you want to learn Fa jing methods? Or do you need someone to prove it to you so you can then go and learn it? Do you want to disprove it? What is the real motive here? I know enough about you to know that you understand the value of a teacher and of humility in seeking to learn. But if someone recommends that you seek to verify these abilities by seeking out teachers who can teach this, you seem to say that means that you must give out all your money to frauds. I don't think demanding that this be proven to you before you are willing to seek out a teacher will get you very far. Any teacher who needs their ego stroked and succumbs to demands of proof is not someone I would recommend learning from. IME, Energy strikes cannot be mastered by someone with a heavy or materialistic mindset. I have seen it over and over again. The attitude of "prove it to me and I will let you teach me" will weigh you down and trap you in your left brain. Some things need to be approached with awe and respect. That has nothing to do with the teacher it is about the student. Also, IME, most people who demand "proof" are coming from a place of anger. And that anger will prohibit them understanding how to implement the technique. If you are serious about learning this, you will need to know this. So, Stiggie, I applaud your determination to discover the truth about these things... if they are something you really want to learn, but the little I have read here in regards to your attitude in demanding proof about something that should rightfully be a spiritual attainment is ( I think) misguided understanding of the technique If you are seeking to disprove this stuff, hey... Look no further. There is mountains of evidence that can easily statistically disprove it's existence. If that is your motive, then just accept that it is not real and move on with your life. If this stuff is real, it is pure fluff and has no real worth in MA or Spirituality. Otherwise if you stay in the middle here You may just make yourself miserable. I have seen this happen too. People who are doubtful but want to be persuaded. Even if they DO experience it, after a day or two, their minds try to explain it away. If they can't either resolve their doubts or accept them, they end up obsessed with it on a physical level and it destroys their other training. I have seen this happen too. Perhaps the lesson is that teachers should have more humility and not post videos of this kind of stuff on the internet. It only seems to make others angry and cynical and foster spiritual insecurity... my .02...With respect, Mike

Hmm, I'm not quite sure if Tara was absorbed into buddhism in India first or tibet. I suspect that she wasn't absorbed into Indian buddhism at all. Tibetan buddhism is unique in that it it is very tantric (by tantric, I mean esoteric Hindu magic) Tara is BIG in tantric hinduism. She is one of the TEN manifestations of Parvati/Durga. wait..I'm getting ahead of myself...let me back up. According to my sources, orthodox Buddhism was first introduced into Tibet in the 8th century. It was received well by the Ruling classes but as you can imagine, the indigenous Bon-Po shamans did not take kindly to their ancestral path being overtaken by a foreign religion. So, as the story goes, the Bon -Po shamans began launching magical attacks against Buddhists and Buddhist missionaries these attacks lasted for a hundred years. Orhtodox Buddhism was not powerful enough to combat the magic of the shamans. So, the ruling buddhists called in spiritual mercenaries from India to combat the Black magic of the shamans... Enter Padmasambhava, the founder of Tantric Buddhism in Tibet... Bear in mind that Buddhism in India can be considered as a sect of Hinduism. Indian Hindus have incorporated buddha into Hinduism and they consider Buddha to be one of the ten incarnations of Visnhu. So, a Hindu could worship Buddha without becoming an orthodox Buddhists. Anyway, my point is that Padmasambhava was a buddhist who incorporated traditional Indian magic into his religion...Vedic and Tantric Hinduism into his religion which included Vedic rituals, mantras and spells. In order to combat the Bon-Po shamans, Padmasambhava used Indian Tantric Rituals, mantras and spells to defeat the indigenous gods of Tibet and then he masterfully "converted" these "demons" into buddhist protection spirits. So, today in Tibet, you have a combination of Buddhism, Tantric Hinduism, Vedic ritual AND converted tibetan deities who now act as "Protectors" of buddhism in Tibet. It was a brilliant strategy!

GIH is absolutely correct. Tara was imported into Tibetan buddhism, but she was not an indigenous Tibetan deity. She was a hindu goddess. She is one of the ten Mahavidyas (Great Wisdoms). Her Moola (Base) mantra is the one you shared. Tara means "star" in sanskrit. According to Vedic knowledge (which predates both Hinduism and Buddhism), She is the Shakti of Brihaspati (Lord of Prayers) who is an aspect of Brahma. He is the teacher of the gods and is the master of mantra and ritual ceremony. He is connected to the planet Jupiter. After marrying Brihaspati, Tara was seduced by the Moon and she left Brihaspati for the moon but was given back to Brihaspati later. Tara represents the aspect of Divine intelligence that first learns the "rules" of spirituality and then "rebels" to learn unorthodox secrets and then brings that secret knowledge back to orthodox understanding. Tara is an aspect of Saraswati, the wife of Brahma. She is the master of the Word and of Mantra. She is the deepest aspect of Wisdom. Tibetan buddhists have their roots in Tantric hinduism. It was tantric hinduism that was used to defeat the indigenous Tibetan gods and "convert" them to buddhism. This is why Tibetan buddhism is so rooted in magic and tantra as opposed to say, the "Ch'aan (Zen) buddhists. Many of the Tibetan buddhist deities are actually tantric hindu gods renamed as buddhas. I know some of the buddhists here will want to argue this point but the history is pretty clear that Tantric buddhism has it's roots in Tantric Hinduism.

Hi Shen, It is not uncommon for people to need less sleep as the energy levels increase. In My experience, this indicates a shift in energy. But, it is also my experience that as your body adjusts to the energy, it will normalize. But, it is a good sign that you are raising your vibrational level. As always, if it is too intense, you can back off on training. I have also found that a regular routine, will also balance things out as your body gets used to the new routine. Thanks for the update, Mike