fiveelementtao

It's NOT a misunderstanding. He knows he is NOT speaking for Max as you say. He did accuse me of theft. period. what is the mystery here? He knows he is NOT speaking for Max. Yet, when I confronted him about speaking for Max without authorization about Sifu Matsuo, Scotty said... "Regardless of what Max or others may say" and then continued to spout his opinion as fact... what is the mystery here? The nebulous world of the internet with it's intellectual arbitraryness is the devil. I am convinced it will be our undoing. The logic or lack thereof here is really baffling to me. There really is something about internet based thinking that is so contrary to what happens face to face. There is a sense of isolated narcissism that breeds on the net that never gets challenged from behind a computer screen. None of these events would have occured in organic face to face contact. We all know it. Yet we try so hard to protect this alternate universe with it's arbitrary laws of personal conduct and hold on to our right to spew our uncensored thoughts that in real life we would censor because of the immediate consequences that would energetically happen from being face to face. Things do matter. Words do matter. It is an illusion that our words and action have no consequences ONLY ON THE NET. This is a perfect example. No one and I mean NO ONE who has trained in Kung Fu and had to use it in real life situations would EVER dare to say that someone can learn self defense by themselves. The difference between training solo and training with a teacher whether it be qigong or kung fu or building a house (assuming the teacher is legit) is that the teacher HAS BEEN THERE and knows the difference between self referential fantasy and the real world. We need to get out of our heads... It's cramped in there... Nothing left for me to say then... Scotty called me a liar and a thief and it's OK. It's just his opinion. Witch saw max in a dream and said he stole her soul and therefore it really happened. Anyone who wants to reach me can email me... I need a looong break from this place...

I have spoken with Max. He actually contacted me wanting to talk about this most recent rash of the rumors that are currently being spread about him. I shared with him my recent problems also. First I would like to address Scotty's recent "opinions". Max has authorized me to relay the following message concerning Scotty's remarks about me, Sifu Matsuo and Max: " I (Max Christensen) did not authorize his (Scotty) speaking on my (Max's ) behalf... Tell the Taobums that I (Max) said that you did not take any method from me." (based on my communications with Max, I take this to mean that this includes any all statements concerning any "opinions" about myself (Mike), Max and any other teacher, including any unverified opinions about the history and sources of any practices of said teachers.) Max expressed his deep sadness over the negativity that still continues to follow him on this board. Concerning some of the rumors about him, he said, "These people never met me...People still bend my words calling me and Kan frauds. It is sad when we try to pass on knowledge and people say things like my powers are demonic and such... Tell them I am sad about all this negativity." I am speaking only for myself now. I don't presume to speak for Max, but I suspect he may feel similarly... I know that many of you may think that we are being egotistical about protecting our reputations as teachers. But speaking for myself, when someone creates a new tradition, even if it has roots in other traditions, it becomes like your newborn child. When someone accuses you of stealing from another tradition or accuses you of lying about your tradition, it feels like someone is calling your child a bastard. It not only hurts you, but you feel protective of your child and their reputation and their feelings. Perhaps that is just my human ego limitation, but it is also important to remember that most teachers feel very deeply about what they are sharing. It is very, very easy to make idle statements about something one has never experienced. So, to those who think I may have overreacted, I understand. But for those of you who are parents...imagine if a gang of people were sitting around calling your child a bastard and you a whore. Even though it is just words, it still hurts and it hurts even more when you know that your innocent child cannot defend themselves. Maybe I am over melodramatic, but that is how it feels to me. I am not saying that one should just accept anything that they hear. You all know me better than that. But, if anyone has an honest question about a teacher or their teaching, IME, if approached with civility, most teachers will be happy to answer any questions... So, that is one reason I overreact when people not only attack my integrity but also my "products." I put myself into my practices, especially the ones that I create myself. And I see them as my children. As a warrior, I get very angry when someone insults a child. More so when it is my child. So, I strongly urge all those here who share their opinions about the practices of their teachers, please be sure not to make any statements about your teachers or their teachings without sufficient knowledge. Please get verifications from an authorized source before sharing it online. Once it is on this forum it becomes a permanent record that people all over the world can read. Opining without verification can be very dangerous to their tradition and can be more hurtful to them as people than you know...It also puts this forum in jeopardy because this forum can be held liable for slander if unverified rumors are not removed upon request. The lawyers wouldn't come after you but after the forum management. And if this forum got shut down because somebody wanted to get their gossip fix on, that would be very sad for the rest of us. So, many of you may be unwittingly be putting the owners of this site in legal hot water by speaking without verification. In my case, Scotty's inaccurate "opinions" about me are permanently on record even though I have asked them to be removed. There is nothing preventing someone from reading them out of context even though things were resolved in my favor. Those words are still there for anyone to read. People do search archives and may find them without finding this thread. So, be careful before hitting the "send" button. It is also important to remember that many teachers depend on their reputation to make a living. (i.e. put food on their table and support their families). Speaking for me, that is not my primary motivation, but it is still a very real necessity. Many of the younger crowd here seem to have an idealistic viewpoint that spiritual teachers do not need money to survive. So, hurt feelings and bruised egos aside...When someone spreads idle unverified rumors on a forum like this it can have devastating effects on their business and their means of providing for their families. Please remember that before sharing unverified negative "opinions." Those who have firsthand experience of a teacher have something to share. It is only natural that not all people will have positive experiences of a teacher or a practice. But, alot of you are sharing unverified negative opinions about teachers you have never even met and practices you have never even experienced.... And in my case, "products" you may have never even purchased. Max and I both have had to weather some really bad negative publicity from some of the same people over the past few years. (seemingly at the same time). I know Max has suffered from these rumors and I have as well. It is embarassing for me to admit it because spiritual teachers are often held to unrealistic standards. But, we are human and if you can imagine what you are saying would be hurtful to you. It is just as hurtful to us. In my case, it is very easy to hurt and anger me. But I am still a teacher. I am just a very human one. I feel confident that Max may feel similarly... OK, now I am returning back to my TTB's vacation. Mike

Max has authorized me to relay the following message concerning Scotty's remarks in this thread: " I (Max Christensen) did not authorize his (Scotty) speaking on my (Max's ) behalf... Tell the Taobums that I (Max) said that you did not take any method from me." (based on my communications with Max, I take this to mean that this includes any all statements concerning any "opinions" about myself (Mike), Max and any other teacher, including any unverified opinions about the history and sources of any practices of said teachers.)

I have spoken with Max. Max has authorized me to relay the following message concerning any remarks about me, Sifu Matsuo and Max: " I (Max Christensen) did not authorize his (Scotty) speaking on my (Max's ) behalf... Tell the Taobums that I (Max) said that you did not take any method from me." (based on my communications with Max, I take this to mean that this includes any and all statements concerning any unverified "opinions" about myself (Mike), Max and any other teacher, including any unverified opinions about the history and sources of any practices of said teachers.) Now we can all be 100% sure. Educated "opinions" are not authorizations to make claims about anything or anyone.

Never mind

My response moved here to avoid further distraction

You're Right K. Certification is merely a stamp of approval from the instructor that they "approve" of the certificate holder. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. It could mean everything. It just depends on the people involved and does not in any way mean that those without certificates won't make amazing teachers. I myself do not certify anyone as I feel no need for it. I encourage my students to take what I teach them and expand upon it and be better than I am. In such a case any certification I would give would only be a limitation...

Mods, please in all seriousness put a muzzle on Scotty already... He clearly doesn't get that he is out of control and a loose cannon and clearly does not understand the difference between insult and slander. Insult is bad enough but Slander is far far worse and he keeps doing it. My request now is this: Remove ALL of Scotty's posts since this started in regards to ANY mention he makes of me. The cumulative disinformation is starting to pile up and now I am becoming legitimately concerned. If you choose not to discipline him, at the very least, monitor him until such time that he proves himself capable of acting with some sanity. The overall combination of his continued slander and repeated statement of assumptions, conjecture concerning me, what he thinks I have said, my motives, my teachers, my history is becoming injurious to my reputation. And now I reluctantly feel the need to correct his disinformation about me. This should have been squelched as soon as I asked for help... False. I have stated that the Celestial Qigong is derived from my Spirit Fighting training. It is not "watered down." Many techniques are derived directly from the spirit fighting techniques. Some is modified for qigong and meditation purposes but that does not reduce it's effectiveness. Those who have actually obtained the DVDs and spent time practicing it can speak for their own experiences. I have not posted the many testimonials I have received from people's experiences of it. Some techniques are my own creation but they are a result of years of dedicated practice of the original forms and are therefore authentic to the tradition... False again. I have never said that it was "Made up" It is a modern interpretation on an Ancient spiritual path. I have documented my research and shared that all along. False. The only thing I have alluded to (which is well known) is that my former MA teacher and I are estranged. I was certified by him almost 20 years ago. and for many years I was the only instructor he certified...in fact, I was his senior instructor for many years before moving away... and to my knowledge, that certification has not been removed. Up until my teacher and I parted ways, I was the senior instructor second only to him in his class... False. Pure conjecture. Whatever similarities are coincidental. If I wanted to teach RP, I would have gotten certified by Max and taught it. As Scotty can attest it is not that hard to get a facilitator's certificate (at least when I met Max). I have great respect for Max's art and I have no need to compete with it. Scotty's inexperience is showing through with his assumption that anything that even remotely resembles what he is familiar with means it has been "lifted" or stolen from his art. I'm sure as he gets older and more experienced in other tradtions he will discover that many different traditions have shared similarities. This is just common sense. Anyone who has learned RP can easily see that there is only ONE general aspect that is remotely similar, the rest is completely different... The only evidence is his opinion which is pure conjecture, twisting of facts to fit his agenda or outright misunderstanding on his part that he has made no effort to corroborate directly from me. He did. The words are there in black and white. Listen mods, this is getting silly. I should not have had to come in here and defend myself against these things that have been repeated numerous times after asking for help... After my first request for help, Scotty should not have been allowed to continue and even expanding on his original slander. Even with all this I do not hold Scotty responsible. Scotty is the way he is and we all are familiar with him when he gets this way. The mods should have stepped in stopped him... and Scotty's continued elaboration on his slander even in the midst of my previous silence to all the different points shows that whatever process is involved in moderation is not working. He needed to be leashed as soon as it became evident that he was resolute in continuing his slander. If nothing is done to edit these things, for my own emotional and NOW professional well being I have no choice but to leave... Time to take responsibility for our beloved forum... Mike

This discussion has surprisingly become very interesting and I think it has value for the forum. For me, I want to be clear... I am not trying to save my professional reputation. This is a personal issue that I think directly relates to the overall health of the forum. So, this isn't about my professional reputation....Seriously people, I make almost no money whatsoever on my "products" as Scotty so derisively calls them. If my online reputation as a teacher were completely discredited and no one ever bought another "product" again, it would have little impact on my business. My total income last year was $20,000. Almost all of that was made from local students. If I tried to live on the money I make on my "products," I would be in a cardboard box. If I put the same amount of time, energy and effort into selling cell phones or timeshares or something, I would make a hell of alot more money... I prefer to teach to local students in order to preserve the integrity of the teachings. I charge an average of $12 per student per class because that is what most people here in Boise are willing to afford. I am lucky if I get a private student or someone coming in from out of town for private lessons. The current economy has just about killed that part of my business. I cannot afford health insurance. I only pay enough auto insurance to legally drive on the road. If it weren't for the fact that my wife has a decent job, I would not have time to teach or write or maintain a FREE website with online teaching materials. I would have to be out there doing the 9-5 thing. So, I am lucky to be able to teach AT ALL. I consider it an honor and a privilege. I do so because I love it and because I feel the need to share what I know to whomever is disciplined enough to learn. So, for those of you (mostly younger folks) who think I am riding high on the hog with all the money I make on my "products." I am willing to bet you have more money than I do... (I personally don't see what is wrong with products. Everyone reading this is using a "product" to do so. I just ate some nice lunch made from products purchased at the store.) When the younger folks on here grow up and have to actually work for a living in order to survive, you will understand the value (nay, the necessity) of charging money for one's time, experience and services ( which are all products by the way.) And if I chose to, I could easily exploit my knowledge and get alot more attention and students, but the karmic price is too high. I have lost students who felt I was holding out on them. And they were right. They weren't ready or mature enough to handle the higher level teachings. Don't get me wrong, if I had a large enough student base to be able to travel around the world to large auditoriums full of people and making good money, I would be happy to do so. But that is not why I teach... But I digress... This isn't about my professional reputation. Only my local students who have trained with me in person for at least a few months IMO, are the only ones who have any real experience to judge my professional reputation as a teacher. It would be unrealistic for me to expect anyone who has never trained with me in person to have a knowledgable experience of me. So, I am not trying to salvage that reputation here. This is my online community. You are my online Taoist family. That is my point here. My experience here is simply one person on this forum who wanted to feel safe among friends. I wanted to portray and exemplify what I consider to be a healthy balance of speaking your feelings and observations freely BUT with consciousness and intelligence. I do not think some on this forum know the difference between a healthy expression of anger and an all out personal attack. I understand this is inevitable on a forum, but I believe we as a community could decide to change that. In this particular instance, I wanted to show that on a personal level for someone to accuse me of theft, plagiarism and deceit was just too below the belt for me on a personal level in an environment that I wanted to consider as a community of friends. I have never expected that on an internet forum that there wouldn't be crazy destructive people. But, if this is to be the community that I want it to be, there has to be some agreement on civility. This is the responsibility of the mods. I honestly expected that the mods would see that accusing someone of theft, plagiarism and deceit without proof other than conjecture based on similarity was by definition a personal insult and worthy of action. What I did not understand was that apparently calling someone "stupid" is an insult and is worthy of mod action. But directly implying that someone is a liar, thief and charlatan is just being critical and is OK. IMO, it is a very serious personal insult. I did not realize that it was actionable by law... I have no desire to sue anybody so, Sean don't worry... I have been considering this move away from TTB's for some time because as I stated earlier, my quality of mind has suffered from allowing myself to become influenced by the negative aspect of the online environment. That is only my fault. I am responsible for how I choose to feel. However, I do also need to be humble enough to know when I need to acknowledge my humanity and take appropriate action to protect my own health. When the mods wrote back that they saw Scotty's actions as merely being harsh criticism of a teacher rather than a personal insult toward a member of the community, I resolved that it was time for me to leave. But before I left, I wanted to hopefully spark a good discussion about the importance of community and our collective responsibility to protect that community. I find this forum to be unique in the online world. It has been sad for me to watch it continue to devolve into just another flame war forum. I am sad to see the quality of information also devolve. I understand that is natural as more and more old timers leave and more and more younger internet generation solo practitioners arrive. And even though I am fully prepared to leave for my own personal reasons, I just didn't feel like I could just walk away without trying to do something to leave this place better than when I found it... In any case, I haven't heard back from the mods yet. In their defense, I have put them in a rather untenable position by giving them an ultimatum and I don't expect them to cowtao to me. If nothing changes, I will ask them to close my account tomorrow. Peace, Mike

Thanks for the nice PMs and responses on this thread. You guys are right. I admit it. My ego and feelings are hurt. It is a sign of how limited and human I am. And while all that is true, it has me thinking about how does this online environment help me personally and how does it help me serve others? Am I really helping people by being on this forum or are there other ways to be more helpful. Sometimes it is good to power through the pain and other times, pain is an indicator to change course. In terms of the forum etiquette, it IS possible to control that... IF we choose to. We as a community are not victims. We have a collective choice about the kind of atmosphere we choose create and tolerate. TTB's is not a force of Nature that we are forced to survive. Any member's repeated insultive behavior is indicative to me of a growing trend that is just not acceptable to me any longer. If they were held accountable for their choices of words, they would be forced to monitor themselves. If not, there is no shame in banning someone who has repeatedly proven themself to be destructive and uncooperative... It IS possible to have free dialogue, debate etc... without tolerating childish destructiveness. I have decided I won't tolerate it anymore in my life where possible. If my choice is to either come on this forum and accept the inevitable possibility that I will be personally attacked, or not. I choose not.... I see that as a sign of strength not weakness. However, I am only one person. Everyone is different. If the majority of the Forum decides that these kind of vindictive personal attacks are acceptable in their collective environment, then I support that for them. It does not mean I have to tolerate it if I don't wish to. So, I am trying to do something to change that. I'm OK if the answer is "no." At least I know I tried to do something before I left. This incident is really just the tip of the iceberg for me in regards to online interaction. The real question is... "Does the time and energy I spend here on TTBs really contribute to spiritual growth for myself and others? My students don't talk to me like that. In fact, No one has ever insulted me in person the way people do over the internet. So, why not focus on teaching those who appreciate it? Am I really helping others by coming on here and spouting my opinions to a mixed audience? I'm not sure. In terms of just sticking it out... Teachers are human. Many will notice that most of the teachers that used to frequent this forum have left or are rarely heard from any more. A couple of them have told me that they have left for the same reasons as I. They just couldn't take the personal abuse any longer or the lack of respect. Call me unspiritual or thin skinned or egotistical, but the attacks are taking a cumulative toll on me and I just don't want to experience them anymore. It's one thing for us to come online and trash someone who is not an active member of the community. It's another thing to do so when they are standing right there.This would not happen in organic, face to face human contact. The only way to change this online dynamic is through deliberate choice. @thelearner, Scotty was not simply miscommunicating as he would like to portray himself. It was in another thread where the slander occurred. Here is a couple quotes... "incorrect" would be an opinion or critcism. "fraudulent" implies deliberate deceit on my part and is outright slander. Here he is outright accusing me of stealing Max's techniques. If he had said "I wonder if Mike was influenced by Max"... That would be a valid question. But accusing me of outright theft is very different. And the worst thing is that he admits that he has no verification of his opinions. He goes on to seek to embarass me by bringing up my former teacher. He knows that this is a very sore personal hurt for me but he has no problem bringing this up if it serves his purposes...Then he calls my teaching "Crap". Opinion? perhaps. Insulting? definitely... Scotty was trying to hurt me. Plain and simple. The guy just has no conscience and cannot control himself. I can accept that people like that are here, but the mods won't do anything to stop it. And on a personal level, I just don't want to support that kind of community anymore. So alot of this has to do with my personal code of conduct. I appreciated Stig's idea that this is a community and we need to hold each other accountable for the way we treat each other. I know that many just consider this another internet forum and who gives a crap, let's see how much fun we can have etc... I have been trying to actively help create the kind of atmosphere that I want to participate in. I have vigorously defended those whom I felt were being targeted and I have vigorously challenged those whom I think were being irresponsible. But I have never consciously insulted anyone. But, there are others for whatever reason just cannot restrain themselves when emotionally stimulated. And if one is tolerated, others will follow. So, bottom line is... I just have to accept that this place is changing and devolving. (or perhaps I am changing or both) and there really isn't anything I can do about it. @ Seth, you're right, I have given the forum an ultimatum. I was very conscious about that. It was not a passive plea for attention. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't leaving this forum without at least making an effort to effect a positive change. It looks as though I have my answer. Scotty's (and those like him) unmoderated destructive presence in this forum is unacceptable to me. If moderated, they can be very constructive members most of the time, but if unmoderated and they get in an emotional funk..., they spiral out of control and cannot restrain their venom. So, Seth, you can call it blackmail if you want. I see it as a way to determine if this is someplace I belong. If the forum decides to do nothing about Scotty, then I know what I can expect in the Future and I have a very clear choice and course of action for how I can best serve myself and others... @Shen and those that feel I have something of value to teach. Thanks for the kind comments. I have a big internet presence and can be easily found. It is not necessary for me to come on here to be helpful. For those who really want to learn from me, they can easily find me and my teachings. Much more to come... @OldGreen, Thanks for the kind words. To those who feel I should be defending myself against Scotty's insults... I find no point in that. He is only doing so to hurt me. as you can see anyone who steps in to defend me only provokes Scotty to invent more insults to share. He can't even "Reconcile" (as he calls it)... without then turning around in the same breath to heap more personal insults. There is no appeasing a wounded infant without spoiling him further. If anyone had an honest question about my background or process they could simply ask and I would be happy to answer. I have no problem whatsoever with honest scrutiny. Scotty himself knows that he does not mean what he is saying. He has said very kind things about me in the past when he didn't have an axe to grind against me. Besides, defending my integrity will not prove anything to those who have decided they dislike me for whatever reason. Any attempt on my part to address every slander point by point will only provoke further ridicule and attacks. I learned that a long time ago. So, I will give it another day. I assume nothing will be done and I am OK with that. It just means I am making room for other ways to serve... Thanks to all for the show if support, Mike

Hello Bums, I'm writing to let you know I am leaving the discussion forum and this will be my last post. The atmosphere of the forum has deteriorated for me to the point where I no longer wish to stay here. There is certainly a place for arguments, disagreements and even harsh challenges of opinions and positions. But when those disagreements become personal attacks and slander, it is an entirely different matter. As you may undoubtedly know, I am no stranger to conflict and disagreement on this forum. But, to my knowledge, I have never personally attacked anyone or their character. Any criticsm I have made has always had circumstance and context and I have never knowingly sought to hurt anyone's feelings or get revenge. I have never leveled any accusations without evidence and I have always been willing to be proven otherwise and take full responsibility for any mistakes I have made. Whenever I have been shown to be mistaken, I always admit my fault and whenever possible, remove any inaccurate or inappropriate posts or statements. I may have commented on someone's behavior and said some pretty harsh things. But, I have made an effort to be sure that I did not deliberately insult or malign anyone even in the face of hurtful personal attacks against me. And if I had something to say to someone, I said it to their face. I don't believe I ever went on other threads and maligned anyone behind their backs in a passive aggressive way. I have been aggressive, but never consciously passive aggressive. I understand that emotions can run very high and sometimes people go a little overboard but usually within a certain context and I can forgive that. But when the attacks become inflammatory, vindictive, personal and out of context, then it is just childish cruelty and I see no place for that and want no part of it. Recently I was challenging someone on this forum for their willful and deliberate characterization of their own teacher as being deceitful. I found that to be disgraceful behavior for a student and I said as much after giving this individual opportunity to retract their statement in order not to unwittingly spread disinformation about their own teacher and another respected teacher. This person deliberately chose to continue with their slander. I was direct with my extreme disapproval. This person then found it necessary to go onto another unrelated thread and accuse me of theft, plagiarism and deliberate deceit in creating my spiritual path. It was a vindictive and personal attack on my character. I contacted mods to ask that the offending post be removed and the person responsible be either temporarily or permanently banned. The mods decided that it warranted neither because they saw it merely as "harsh criticism." Criticism in one thing. Personal slander without evidence is entirely different. I have never pretended to be anything other than student and seeker. I am not a master. I have never claimed any kind of enlightenment and I have never tried to hide behind false modesty. I'm just a person. As such, personal insults and attacks do hurt my feelings. To pretend otherwise for me is deceitful. In my world, the worst, most hurtful thing someone can do is accuse someone of deliberate deceit in regards to their spirituality. I have made similar accusations but not without researching those claims first. Attacks on this forum are unavoidable, but I expect the mods to be there to protect the atmosphere so that when someone does cross the line that they be held accountable. In my case, I don't feel this was done and I am not willing to be in an atmosphere where someone can maliciously attack my character whenever they wish without consequence. But really this is just the last straw for me. When I first came onto this forum, there were more energetic practitioners sharing their practices. Many had actual teachers and experience, so they could share their ideas with some knowledge and weight. Most of those people have left the forum. As a result, the overall tone of the forum has begun moving toward solo practitioners, many of whom are only interested in learning from books and videos and are hostile to the idea of learning the practices in a traditional way. The result is that the quality of the discussions has deteriorated. For me, I am finding it harder and harder to come on this forum without having alot of judgement and as a result, my posts have also become more and more hostile and I don't like seeing that in myself. As a result, more and more of the younger crowd are reacting toward me with hostility as the angry old patriarchal grouch. The result is me wanting to "put those youngsters in their place and tell them to get off my lawn." I don't like that either. Whether I like it or not, I have become that angry old fart I used to hate as a kid. I am not this way in person or with my local students. So, I have to leave for my own emotional well being. I have let mods know that if they change their minds in a couple of days and take appropriate action, I am willing to stay. If not, I will take that as a sign that the Universe wants me focusing my efforts on other things. Good luck to all, Mike

Too late. This is over the line when you made it personal. You just don't know when to stop, Scotty or own up when you screw up. Had you kept it in context, that would have been fine. But, these kinds of personal attacks are not cool and you clearly don't know the difference. I'm on a mission to get you banned. You don't know the difference between honest disagreement and personal attacks. IMO, you need to go.

Scotty I have formally reported you to the mods for this post and have requested that you be temporarily or permanently banned for what I consider to be conscious, deliberate and malicious attack on my integrity and character... I am not the only person who has "freaked out on you" recently. Perhaps you have contributed to mine and others' reactions to you lately. You really need to take a look at yourself.