fiveelementtao

I share your sentiments. I'm back in here after another self-imposed ban because I'm recouping from surgery and am getting a little bored, but I still get a kick over what gets posted. And of course you're aware that I have a well-earned reputation for murdering young souls for sport.

 

I wonder what it would be like if I had access to online forums starting around the age of 8 instead of my access at the age of 38. What are the implications for socialization? What would it be like if you grew up in an environment where you could expect to disseminate your slightest whims with impunity and never be challenged? What would happen if we were suddenly obliged to unreflectively accept everything someone posted in the interest of making nice? Jesus, you wouldn't believe some of the things some members have demanded from me. On second thought, you would.

 

It's too easy to arrive in midlife and lament the intellectual and social impoverishment of the following generations, but I often feel like my generation, born in 1960, got the last decent shreds of what public education could offer. I dropped out of HS in 1978 because I found marijuana to be infinitely more fascinating than HS bullshit, but grades 1-8 were pretty darn good. We got the 3 Rs and I made it into jazz band, Star Trek was still a distant plausibility, Kwai Chang was offering an alternative, and Chick Corea, John McLaughlin, Weather Report, and Jean Luc Ponty actually demonstrated real musicianship. That was a fertile time, and it really seems that by 1984, we lost the ability to even communicate, just like in "1984."

 

Well, as a man with an expectant wife, you can bet my kid won't be sucking the teat of public education, nor will (s)he be going on line and working on diabetes. I'm musing now, signing off.

Jean Luc ponty! That was damn good music!!!!

Well, I guess Way is not interested in a two way discussion about the role of destiny. Instead he would rather engage in passive aggressive swipes at me in the third person with others. I answered his questions, but he refuses to answer mine which I think would have opened up a new and interesting discussion... I find it a bit hypocritical and controlling to demand questions from an OP but be unwilling to answer any in return... And it illustrates my original point of this thread quite well... I am beginning to wonder if others who have left this forum might be on the right track... If the point of this forum has become to find a place for those who do not wish to take risks beyond sitting in front of a computer and indulging in intellectualisms, then I wonder what benefit there is for those of us who only use this arena as a supplementary practice...

As one person who has left described this place as having become " a place where a bunch of "pat-each-other-on-back-juveniles have taken over"... I must say that I am beginning to agree...

So. Way, my friend... I'm over all that. I've heard your personal defense a few times now. I just don't completely buy it. I apologize if I seem angry...I can be direct. especially when I feel somebody is not being completely forthright with their feelings. So, Contrary to what you may think, I am not angry with you. I am trying to move the discussion to a more cooperative direction. I think your objection to the subject is important and can be helpful to others by exploring your personal reaction to the idea of destiny instead of focusing on who is right and who is wrong...So, I'm now asking you a new question. Which you are refusing to answer. Why (based on your experience and/or feelings) do you disagree with or dislike the idea of destiny being central to spiritual practice? How does it effect you.

On a personal note: To stay on topic of the thread, one of the things I have noticed in the internet generationers with little, knowledge or experience is the idea that if they can create clever intellectual arguments, this can somehow make something true even in spite of the experience of others. You yourself said that your knowledge of taoism is limited, yet you feel that you need to correct my "incorrect" generalizations.

Just for arguments sake and you are right and my generalization is totally off in light of the book knowledge...What if all the books are wrong? One thing I respect about Shaktimama is that she openly disagrees with some traditional teachings about Kundalini which I have called her on, but she is fearless when she says that she doesn't like some traditional teachings because her experience differs from that. Even though I may disagree with her conclusions, I cannot argue against her experience, and if I haven't said so, Shaktimama, I respect you for your bravery and sticking to your guns. That is why I recommend her to students seeking kundalini teachings...

So, Way,...You can sign off on this discussion if you want...I'm responding to you in particular because your responses do reflect alot of what I think adds to the discord and confusion and safe, intellectual passive aggressiveness on this site. So, I am also trying to help newbies... There are alot of people here who only know how to confront and be contrary and not discuss from their personal feelings. especially when they don't like or are threatened by something someone "in authority" has said. I have shared quite a bit of my personal experience which is what adds to my opinions. I won't try to argue against your feelings unless you hide behind them just to challenge me. Because when it comes to our feelings we are all equal and no amount of book knowledge can invalidate feelings or experience. That, I think is much more interesting than the intellectual slant of trying to see who is more "correct" based on scholarly sources.

So, if you really want to have a discussion with me, you will be better served by sharing feelings and experience.

Good luck to you...

My personal experience is really not a factor in that at all, that I can see.

Why not? What's the point of having this discussion if we don't share our personal feelings and experiences? It's clear to me that you wanted to challenge the idea of destiny because you yourself don't like the idea for some reason. I don't know what that reason is, but by shutting down emotionally, you went into your head which is ALWAYS passive aggressive. and instead of sharing your feelings, which would have opened up an entirely NEW dimension to whole purpose of destiny and working with spirit guides, we are reduced to intellectual sparring over who has the most book knowledge.

Who cares about that? what good is any of that knowledge if it cannot be put into practice and elevate our minds and emotions?

Hi 5ET. I most certainly am not "questioning your authority"

Really?

I sincerely doubt that it is a valid statement to make. I'd be interested to hear exactly what 5ET is basing that statement on... I just wouldn't want people who may be new to Taoism to start getting the wrong idea... Also, would be interested to hear about the exact Taoist tradition that 5ET is basing his statement on.

sounds pretty challenging to me...

Way... again making this about me... You did not answer my question which is what is your personal feeling and experience about the subject.

I never said Way wasn't sincere... I was merely pointing out that Way was doing what most do on forums which is to argue over intellectual concepts by putting the poster on the defensive rather than discuss the concept from a personal standpoint... It is an attempt to divert and avoid the underlying emotional issues by putting the OP on the defensive. I am not judging Way. But it is the modus operandi of most forum discussions... I still feel that Way's main issue is a personal dislike of the concept. So, even if I gave Way all of the intellectual evidence they ask for, it still does not address the personal, emotional resistance Way may have about the idea. I believe a more constructive way to discuss the issue is to share our personal feelings on the subject rather than passive aggressive questions of "how do you know that?" Or "I'm protecting newbies." etc... Cut the crap! Way doesn't like the idea of destiny on an emotional level that Way has not shared. By putting the focus on me in a passive aggressive way, this is a typical forum behavior to avoid the issue raised. Just because we are all equals does not mean that I am obliged to engage every intellectual diversion tactic that comes along... This is childish schoolyard tactics. If someone wants to engage in a discussion with me, they will be much more successful by sharing personal feelings and experience rather than polarizing intellectualisms... Way is not unique here, it is the operation of left brain thinking that is a direct result of communication via keyboards... I will continue to point it out when I see it... If people don't like my posts, they can ignore me... I have a huge and growing lists of ignoreds myself. It saves alot of time and computer headaches

I think the confusion may be the interpretation of Destiny? It is not something that just "happens" to you. It is what your Higher Level self, your true inner core, chose. To follow is learning to dance in the Wu Wei, in the synchronicity of all.

I agree Ya Mu, I think the resistance to the concept of destiny for many is coming from a mistaken idea that destiny is being confused with the fatalistic Christianized version of "god's Will" or "Bearing one's Cross." If this is one's unconscious projection onto this idea then, I completely understand one's resistance to being controlled by a deity that wants us to suffer for "god's will." My experience with my guides has destroyed this perverted idea. Instead my experience with them has filled me with joy at the thought of being part of a greater spiritual community.

I am coming from the assumption that destiny means that each one of us has chosen to come into this life to fulfill a higher purpose. Part of the learning process is to fight to become aware of this higher purpose.

Just as a sidenote, If we want to talk about the history of ascended masters in Taoism... The first organized "taoist" sect was the "Heavenly Masters" sect. This was the first sect that all other Taoist sects sprang from. The second and possibly even more influential sect was the "Shang Ch'ing" sect. This second sect was founded entirely on revelations from the Lady Wei who was a member of the Heavenly Masters sect and who became an immortal herself. after ascending, She then appeared to her descendents and shared methods of internal alchemy to her descendents who then founded the Mao Shan sect. That sect went on to influence either directly or indirectly all other taoist formalized sects. This is undisputed history. For anyone truly interested in how deep working with ascended masters is in the formation of Taoism, I recommend looking into the history of those sects. In the Shang Ch'ing scriptures, the ENTIRE tradition is focused on working with ascended beings and deities and it is firmly established that the whole point of working with them is to realize one's destiny... For some, it is to become an ascended master, for others it is to become an ascended master... perhaps in later lifetimes. People on this forum want to talk about becoming an immortal, well that is the destiny of everyone. Some will just realize it sooner than others... If one wants to speed up the process, then ask your guides to help align you with your destiny and you are that much closer to realizing your ultimate fate, which is to be an ascended master yourself...

BY the way, it is not necessary to join a sect to work with your own guides. If it is what is best for you, you will be drawn to a teacher whose highest purpose is to facilitate this connection... But, it is not necessary for all people. Just ask your guides for their help and be open to be flexible and things will change...

Hi Way is virtue,

You are being a typical TTBer right now. Instead of discussing the concept, you want to attack my authority and scholarly expertise...

So, let's attack this another way which will foster more cooperative discussion instead of knitpicking intellectual arguments... Why don't you share why my statements bother you? In other words instead of saying, "I have trouble with this post on a personal reason for this reason..." You have instead said that you doubt my authority to make this statement and so instead of discussing the merits of the subject matter, you want to put me on the defensive and engage in intellectual knitpicking. I don't go there any more...

Then YaMu, whose reputation in a traditional taoist sect is well known voices his agreement based on his extensive experience in his tradition and then you want to say he is mistaken because he only teaches taoist medical qigong. As though that is somehow not part of traditional taoism. Where do you think his tradition came from? Medical qigong is among the most profound aspects of ancient Taoist energy traditions. You won't find this stuff in books, martial arts, DVDs or big qigong seminars. This comes from working in transmitted lineage traditions. If you know anything about transmitted lineages, you know that initiation includes being introduced to the ascended masters of that tradition.

Way,... So, just because you don't like the concept doesn't mean it isn't part of traditional taoist lineage training... I might be inclined to turn the tables on you and ask how do you know that working with higher guides is not part of traditional taoist internal alchemy? But instead, I would rather focus on what will actually create dialogue instead of needless, typical TTBs intellectual knitpicking argument and discuss why you personally are bothered by the concept I have introduced... I have shared from my personal experience. Why don't you share yours...

I understand what you are saying, but in terms of Taoism, Yoga and any other traditional teaching... There IS destiny. We all chose to come here to accomplish specific tasks and learn as well as help others. To deny destiny is to deny one's gifts. I know that many nowadays see destiny as some kind of trap or obligation like doing homework or chores. But this is a complete misunderstanding of the concept. Living one's destiny is the greatest joy one can have in this life...

If we are on a Taoist forum, we must at least consider destiny and karma. It is a major teaching in traditional Taoism. Most traditional Taoist sects strongly emphasize working with one's spirit guides to accomplish their destiny. In fact, this is the whole point of meditation: to connect with one's spirit guides in order to accomplish one's purpose here on Earth.

People on this forum talk about becoming immortals... If they truly want this, this cannot happen without following one's destiny...

I myself take great joy in communing with my guides and allowing them to guide me to my destiny. It is truly fulfilling. It is challenging sometimes, but it is always fulfilling...

I think that many have forgotten that they already have teachers assigned to them. For those who may be having trouble with meditation, then I suggest simply using that time to ask your guides to help you on your journey. That's it and then WATCH what happens in your life... You can do your own thing if you want, but if you want real adventure, challenges and JOY! Then ask your guides to come to you, work closely with you and bring you your destiny.... Then buckle up and hang on!!!

@WayIsVirtue... Good post. I have posted similar things myself. I have trained with teachers who had some pretty impressive siddhis, but they were not enlightened at all... In fact some were very emotionally immature. Their power actually isolated them and made their emotional issues worse. They used their powers as a drug. Many on this board who are seeking powers/enlightenment out of a need to escape feelings don't realize that if they found what they think they are looking for, they will be even more unhappy than they are now...

There is this idea lately that spiritual powers = enlightenment. IME, enlightnement is the old lady down the street who give out cookies to strangers, the person who gives to others unconditionally. ( not out of a need to be "good" or be noticed or to get approval from others) It is compassion and unconditional love by choice... That is something that anyone can give. It has nothing to do with energy. Love, like enlightenment is not a feeling or a state of being but a choice... No energy system can give that. Nothing outside of you can fix you... It is within you and it may take some work to uncover. Without work, you only have what you have now. If you want to change, make the choice, do the work and seek...

I think another aspect to this is that what many on this board call enlightenment is not enlightenment at all but escape from pain. I have seen time and again from going to different seminars of teachers who either claim to teach instant enlightenment or allow their followers to ascribe them with teaching instant enlightenment, that many of the people in those seminars are very emotionally damaged.

In a nutshell, the new age, instant enlightenment crowd seems to suffer from serious co-dependence and could benefit from more from either 12 step groups or from psychological counseling than from energy disciplines...

This is of course nothing new. It has been part of the spiritual scene for millenia. The new twist today, however, is the idea that spiritual disciplines are like products. So, now we have people who honestly feel that teachers and paths must come to them and prove themselves to the students. The whole idea of seeking and striving as part of the process has been entirely forgotten. So, now we have the combination of co-dependent, escapism combined with internet customer mentality. Whereas before, the student needed to prove themselves worthy of the teacher, the student now believes that it is the teacher who must prove themselves to the student. While this is also true, the student will never know if the path or the teacher is worthy until they themselves walk that path first. They can only know the worth of a teacher or system by experience and action. This knowledge can never come by intellect... Intellect and experience are two completely different universes...

The idiom "seek and ye shall find." is a necessary ingredient to any spiritual pathway. One reason why disciplines have secrets is because if one does not seek, even if the answer is right in front of them, they will not see it... The truth is that it is all right in front of us, within us, but if we do not seek, we do not open our minds and we do not find... (edit) The gospel of Thomas actually says it this way, "Do not stop seeking until you find. When you find you will become disturbed. When you are disturbed, you will marvel and reign over all." This takes effort and requires some willingness on the part of the seeker to undergo considerable discomfort if necessary...

Another HUGE aspect to all of this is destiny and karma. In traditional teachings, it is emphasized that you will only achieve what is in your destiny to achieve. This has been forgotten because many only learn from books today. But it is essential to know that If you do not have the karma for siddhis, you will not achieve them, regardless of the path you choose. and if you DO have the karma for siddhis, you will achieve them regardless of the path you choose. Any siddhis are given because you have been chosen to use them by the Universe to help in your way. One cannot choose their siddhis. The highest attainment that anyone can achieve is to operate from their own highest destiny. This will also bring the greatest joy. The idea that one can shop around for the best practice forgets that the best practice is whatever one helps you to live your highest destiny based on your karma... I stopped asking for things like money, etc... when I realized this and now I simply pray and meditate this phrase... "May I walk in my highest destiny today." And I may not know what that is from moment to moment. But from that emptiness, the Universe brings new things and I would not be where I am without this understanding.... The only real thing any teacher can share with a student is the emptiness to be ready for their destiny in any moment. This is really the only thing a true teacher transmits to a student. Any energy or shaktipat or any other feeling is nothing in comparison to the ability to accept your destiny without preconception....

Viking shamans meditated in full lotus!

Internal Martial Arts with a Teutonic Shamanic Twist!

New Classes!

Just to add a different slant to the discussion, if things are changing wouldn't a "good Taoist" simply find a way to appropriately adapt to the change rather than become sentimentally attached to "how things once were"??

 

Just a thought

Playing devils' advocate? Or do you have some suggestions as to how one might adapt to whatever this change is you are referring to? Every generation has it's challenges. This is one of the current generation's challenges...

If you are suggesting that I have an emotional attachment to the past, I have no sentimental attachment to the "way things were". I am very excited about the present and I look forward to adapting to whatever changes are occurring... I used to want things to be different just as many on this forum would like to find the easy path to enlightnement. I completely understand their desire. I tried it too, for years... My experience, however, has taught me that some laws cannot be wished away. As much as I wanted high level taoist practices to magically appear and be handed to me, I had to make some decisions and sacrifices and I still do... That hasn't changed. As far as my emotional attachment is concerned, I do care very deeply about spiritual progress in this world. Anyone who knows me or is familiar with my work knows that I have shared huge amounts of teaching materials for free to anyone who asks and I will continue to do more in the future. My deep desire is to help. But sometimes, the kindest thing to do is speak some unfiltered truth and challenge denial. My methods are that of a spirit warrior and I do clash with people at times when my BS meter goes off. At least you know where I stand and I will speak the truth as I see it even if that means you may not like me as a result. But that is my way and I accept that. Some will respond positively to it. Other warriors have their way and know how to speak in ways that are less direct and challenging and others will respond to them... That is their way.. We each have our part to play in the grand scheme of things. I am playing mine as I understand it... There are some on this forum who may take some action based on what I have said. If I have to ruffle some feathers and bruise some egos along the way, I'm OK with that. So, this isn't about what I want to be true... If someone can find a way to do it the easy way from a computer or a book, please fill me in. I would love to get in on that... My experience has taught me very differently...

As someone who has trained with masters in person, Stig, I know you understand the difference....

@walker... great post... I will meditate on what you have posted... Thank you...

So, having said that, I am going to take a few days off from this forum...

See you in a few days...

Yes! Dancing, playing music, acting, painting, drawing, any artistic activity, Composing music, Sports, (surfing-my personal favorite), martial arts, Any activity that requires a partner. These are all excellent methods for exercising the right brain and I whole heartedly agree that real time person-to-person (not online) communication is also very good at stimulating the right brain...

I agree, i came from being a very left brain "world" and had to develop my right, my traditional education had taught me to ignore my gut instincts and intuition and put all my eggs in one basket.

 

-For those interested in some good activities to develop your right brain are dancing, martial arts...anything that involves "feeling" and intuitiveness. Plain conversation is also a good tool, talk to others and try and learn to gauge people by simply "feeling" them out.

 

-Also learn to feel yourself out, learn what you want and understand your own drives: this is extremely important.

I feel for you, my brother... No judgement here. I can tell you from experience that there are alot of really loving women/men who don't care how much money you make. Just be honest and be yourself and you won't have to worry. If someone is turned off by lack of money, then you will know quickly and you can move on to the next. I am very happily married to an awesome woman and it ain't because I have money. She loves me because I listen to her and work hard to be a cooperative, loving partner... For many people, that is all that is necessary for a loving relationship...

It sounds like there is some pretty deep emotional wounds that would probably be helped by counseling. If that is not an option because of finances, there are alot of 12 step and self-help groups out there that can help. I would strongly suggest finding some type of group that you can share your feelings with...It's hard to heal when your all alone...

I don't know what your path is, but I do believe that it would be very healing for you to reach out in whatever way you can to find real live people to connect with... Perhaps there are people on this forum in your city or area that can direct you to different places or groups...

I am sending you love and good energy, my brother. I applaud your bravery in sharing here. I hope you find what you need...

Blessings,

Mike

ok, now i have gone thru and read the posts on this topic.

@ fiveelementtao. in my view this thread was started by you

because you were considerate and did not want to hijack

the Difference Between 3 Qigong Style thread?

because of an exchange of ideas between you and sloppy zhang on that thread?

so ,wasnt the idea of this thread to continue that conversation here?

You make many valid points and you have alot of experience and knowledge.

so why would you have a Reply To the Internet Generation discussion

and then put sloppy zhang on ignore?

 

sloppy zhang was giving insight directly from a member of the internet generation.

was your intention here to have a conversation or to lecture?

Good Question. I did not direct these comments at Sloppy by name. So, it is good you ask because this subject has been brewing in me for a while now. I am not intending to single sloppy out. as it so happens there are many, many on this forum who think similarly to him. My intentions are to share what I consider to be very important information to people honestly seeking spiritual paths... They can choose to listen or not. So, if that is a lecture, so be it. Some lectures are helpful. You can determine if mine are helpful or not... People can choose to ignore me too if they want. I won't take it personally.. But to spend energy arguing accomplishes nothing and I know Sloppy well enough that he will probably want to engage in intellectual debate about this issue. If I am wrong, I apologize. It wouldn;t be the first time and won't be the last. It's Ok with me if he and others don't like what I am saying. Sometimes speaking one's truth will offend others. On a personal note, engaging in intellectual hair splitting on this forum is not good for me on an emotional level. So, there are times when I need to use that function in order to avoid slipping into forum left brain intellectual hell...

So, IDK.. you can determine for yourself what my motives are and take that into consideration as you read my posts...

Another aspect in all this which I think is very important is the left brain/right brain aspect to Tao training.

Internet, texting, video games and books are all left brain activities. The more people isolate with their electronic gadgets, the less they are exercising their right brains. Right brain is crucial to Tao training. One reason why I do not get angry with internet generationers now is because I realize that most of their life has been spent using these devices and so many don't even know what right brain activities are like from an experiential standpoint. I have come to the conclusion that many internet generationers may actually be developmentally disabled from lack of right brain activities in their teenage years. I think this contributes to increased drug use among youth... Anyway, I can't prove that, it is only a theory...

I have a young student (18) who has been training with me for over a year now. I have been laying the energetic foundation with him for this past year and I told him I thought he was ready to learn how to practice with his right brain. I shared some techniques to engage his whole brain and I wish I could share with you the look on his face when he felt the energy. Now he is ready to start his real training. He is an exceptionally gifted student and it still took me over a year of two classes per week before he was ready for the real training to begin. This is not something that can be taught in books or videos.

So, my point here is IME, there is simply no way for someone to know whether or not they know anything about energy until they have been introduced to right brain practices. Books, internet, video are by definition left brain activities and as such, there is simply no way to learn these crucial right brain techniques (which cannot be put into words, images or texts) solely from these left brain sources and be able determine what you are learning from a right brain perspective. In fact if this is your only source of information, there is no way for you to objectively assess your learning abilities at all... This can only be achieved through personal, physical interaction with other students and teachers.

 

My teacher has a simple Chinese expression - Heng teng.

Heng, loosely means Sacrifice. Teng means connection.

In order to make a connection you must make a sacrifice.

In our school this relates directly to making the Heng sound in various techniques which basically helps you connect to the Tantien. making the Heng(sacrifice) creates the Teng (connection), in this case the connection with your own center.

Thanks for that quote. It rings true from my experience... Interesting, If my limited understanding of Chinese is correct, I assume that what you spell "heng" is pronounced like the English "hung." If this is true, then, it correlates with the Sanskrit seed sound "Ham" which is correctly pronounced "hung" also. Ham means "AM" or "Being" which means Existence. Ham is also the seed sound for the ether element which is similar to the "Hun" souls energy in the liver which is similar to the aethem Element in Teutonic mythology. So, everything you just said tells me that High level energy leading to spiritual existence can only be achieved through discipline, connection and sacrifice...

To other readers out there... This connection I just made which was sparked by a fellow practitioner is a result of years of practice in a transmitted lineage. Had I not spent years receiving this transmission from my teachers, I would not have had the karmic energy to make that instant connection. This profound teaching that VCraig has given me is a final result of years of learning energy concepts... This is the kind of power and understanding that can only come from lineage connection, which can only be found by studying over time in person with teachers... Now I will be able to translate this knowledge from Vcraig into practical reality. It is no longer an intellectual idea... This is real learning...

@Sloppy, I put you on manage ignored users so I don't know what you have written, not because I am angry with you, but because I knew that you would probably get defensive and want to argue with me and try to convince that you are right and I am wrong. (based on Vcraig's response it seems I was generally right.) But, here are the facts... My opinion and your opinion mean NOTHING in this Universe. The only thing that matters is what WORKS. I know you know this already. So, stop wasting energy trying to convince me you are right and go PROVE it by studying with teachers. If I am wrong, you will not need to prove it to me because you will KNOW it through trial and error and experience. If I am right, then you will have found what you say you are looking for, REAL energy knowledge... Either way, wasting energy on this forum gets you nowhere. So, Make whatever sacrifices you have to and go TRAIN with someone. Then come back in 10 years and tell me I was wrong if need be... Until then as VCraig pointed out, IMO, you don't even know what you don't know...

I am going to keep you on manage ignored users for awhile to avoid needless drama for myself... Good luck...

There has been an increasing trend over the last 5-10 years that seems to be hitting epidemic proportions and I have seen this trend increasing exponentially on this forum over the last couple of years. It's what I am calling Internet generation syndrome... This trend seems to apply to teenagers and young adults who have never lived without access to cell phones and internet. I am seeing a very different mindset from this upcoming group of people that marks a huge shift in thinking from when I was a kid.

As a teacher, I have been getting more and more inquiries from students who want me to explain everything to them ahead of time over the phone or in email before they come to a class. I just got a phone call today from a local student who wanted me to "meet him and give him a couple pointers on breathing." When I told him that I would be happy to set up a time for a private lesson, he said he was having money troubles and asked if I could just hang out with him and maybe we could work something out... I then suggested if money was an issue that he come to my group qigong class. He wanted to know how many classes it would take before he would learn enough to do it on his own and if he didn't like the class, would I offer him a refund.... I felt as though he believed he was talking to a customer service rep... I gave him some options and told him to think about it and get back to me... I was polite, but needless to say, I am not very interested in training that kid... I don't think he would learn anything until he changes his perspective... I'm also not angry with him because I have seen enough to know that he is not alone. It is a very common mindset of his generation. Years ago when I was starting out as a teacher, I rarely got these kinds of inquiries. Now I get two or more a week. A few weeks back I got an inquiry from a local person ( 10 minutes drive) who wanted to know if I would do skype training with her because she didn't want to make the drive to my studio.....So, something is changing and I don't think it is for the better.

The internet generation syndrome exhibits a mindset that assumes that everything can be made instantly available, cheap and refundable. Just like products on the internet or on ebay... Internet generationers ( I think because they have grown up on TV internet, texting and video games) also believe that they can intellectually understand everything beforehand and they demand to be told everything there is to know before they will put forth any effort into learning. Internet generationers seem to believe that it is THEY who are doing teachers a favor by studying with them. There is a tendency among some of them to seek for a personal friendship relationships with teachers. These ones are particularly sensitive about paying any money. They believe that their friendship is more valuable than any money and therefore, they should not have to pay the teacher for his/her time.... This indicates to me that parents have abandoned their kids to TV, internet and video games and so there is a huge hole in these kids' guts and so they project their desires for parental love onto spiritual teachers... No wonder there are so many false gurus out there promising enlightenment in a weekend seminar...

On other threads, other fellow TTBs have proclaimed that they don't have the time or money to travel and meet teachers. Many have only learned through books, forums and videos.They often complain about not being able to find a reliable system, yet they have never taken the time to physically seek out any teachers. They often complain about the amount of money spent on "materials.' Some are college students who claim they don't have time or money to go seek out teachers... You think it was different when I was a kid? we had to go to college, have part time jobs and we still found ways to save money, pile into cars, sleep on the roadside or in the back of cars or take buses on weekends or semester breaks. You don't have time because you are in college? I understand. Sometimes we have to make choices. Sometimes, you may need to choose college and forget about training. sometimes you take a semester off and work and train... Maybe you need to choose between college, a relationship or training... Sometimes you have to make choices and sometimes you don't get everything you want... Complaining about it accomplishes nothing except to reinforce a childish sense of entitlement. Complaining doesn't help you get the knowledge you want. Only action will get that for you...That's called life...

Sacrifice is essential to spiritual learning...

When I was younger, it was assumed that in order to learn anything of value, one had to scrimp, save and sacrifice to learn anything. It was assumed and understood. I am amazed when I hear the internet generationers complain about how much money they have spent buying books and DVDs as though they should get a medal or something. I have no idea how much money I have spent over the last 20 years traveling around and paying teachers to train me. Perhaps because I did not grow up in the internet age that I didn't assume that everything was readily available and so I wasn't angry if things didn't work out. I assumed that failure was part of the process. In fact, I took it as a sign that I was making progress and that encouraged me to keep looking until I found what I was looking for... Guess what 20 years later, I have finally found my niche. If i expected to find it within only a few years, I would have given up and lost out big time...

So, I am going to make a dire prediction here and I would be very happy if I am wrong.... But here goes... I believe our current way of life is going to change drastically very soon. I believe that the internet will go down, Petroleum will become difficult or impossible to get, people won't be able to drive cars or get their food from giant grocery stores and our economic system will completely break down and return to a locally based system of bartering. Those who are not able to adapt and provide for themselves will have a very difficult time surviving...

For those who have never lived without having everything instantly available, who don't know how to sacrifice and adapt, those who complain about feeling they deserve everything according to their requirements... They will not survive...

Spiritual seekers... If you truly want to learn spiritual disciplines, you have to grow up.... You have to be self-sufficient... One of my first teachers told me... "The Universe is not interested in excuses. It is only interested in results." He was right...

There are a growing number of old timers on this forum who are silently leaving this forum in droves because they are tired of the trend that I have outlined here. As it is now, there are only a handful of us (that I know of) who post on this part of the discussion forum who have actual experience in real lineages with live teachers. I think that is sad. If we all leave, you will only be left with threads about aliens, nagas and semen retention techniques from books...

If you really want to learn this stuff, especially the high level stuff, you will need to learn about the kind of learning that can only be given through personal, physical and verbal transmission. No book or video can adequately give this... Unfortunately, that may mean that you may have to make some sacrifices, get up from behind the computer screen, meet some teachers and train old school style... Or you can continue to sit behind a computer and complain... and you will get exactly what you have now...

Anyway... just wanted to share some thoughts.... I hope this forum doesn't continue to disintegrate. I think it is a very valuable resource...

Sloppy.... the issue I am raising is...Learning from internet, books and videos as opposed to live teachers.

I read one of your recent posts and came to find out that I had a very mistaken understanding about you. So, in order to stay on topic and before I respond to you directly, I want to make sure I am not making incorrect assumptions about you.

In order to better help me have a constructive conversation with you, can you please tell me: How old are you? and what teachers and lineages have you personally trained with? (outside of books, videos or internet) Skype is OK, I will accept that as live training..

My apologies and thanks for your indulgence...

edit: Sorry... I now see that you are 21... So, sloppy, I was under the assumption that you were in your 30s or 40s and had been training for at least 15 years. ( I don't know where I got that idea. My apologies) I thought that your skepticism arose from disappointments from training with several teachers. Assuming you have not actually trained with any live teachers in the few years you have been investigating, I don't understand your skepticism. In my day, when I was your age, we traveled around and actually trained with different people looking for a good teacher. If one teacher didn;t have what we wanted, we were grateful for knowing which teacher or path to eliminate. Yes, there are bad teachers out there.. So, what? Take it as a lesson and move on...

You had one bad experience with ONE karate teacher? Yeah.. so, go find another... That's what we did when I was your age...

Sloppy, You have spent alot of time on this forum complaining about having no proof. You hyper intellectualize and analyze everything but you have not talked about actually seeking people out... You have raked me over the coals analyzing my claims, yet you have made zero effort to train with me to see for yourself. I'm sure there are a few more teachers on here you have scrutinized but not actually visited... You have been demanding that people prove everything to you scientifically before you will deign to allow them the privilege of training you... You act as though you are doing all teachers a favor if you decided to become their student... This is very typical of the internet age...

I am pointing this out, not to harrass you, but because this epitomizes the internet generation's sense of entitlement that everything should come to them immediately and cheaply... You are not to blame. This is the result of our dependence on technology and if you are 21, then you have never lived without having instant access and gratification. So, I don't mean this as a criticism.

IMO, if you are REALLY serious about finding out the truth and finding a good system, you are going to need to get out from behind the computer screen, travel around, meet some live teacher and spend some TIME investigating and training. After maybe ten years of investigating with live teachers, then maybe, just maybe, you will have some actual experience to make some judgements about systems and teachers... Until then, I'm sorry to say that IMO, you are using your skepticism as a way to stay safe and not take a real risk.... Time to stop the talk and do the walk...

I know you're going to probably want to argue with me about this and we don't share a common experience, so, I am going to withdraw from further discussion about this with you... Because until you actually do something other than read and talk about it... It's all talk....

good luck in your search...

I understand... I think you might be better served by asking where you can find teachers in your area who teach those styles of qigong and nei gong... Then you can ask that teacher in person all your questions and get better answers to help you in your decision making process...

Peace...

I didn't know that you could mix the different styles together? Wouldn't that be like mixing red wine and white wine together? Or champagne with beer?

Very Good! That is right, which is why I asked whether you had asked a teacher. Some of the practices you mention are pretty high level qigong and should not be learned without a live teacher to guide you... Your question is a very common one recently. I do not know your age, but I assume based on your question that you are a young adult. People nowadays want to try and intellectually figure out certain practices before they "try" a spiritual practice. You are not alone. I get these kinds of questions all the time. "What does this practice do? How long before I see results?" etc.. etc.. It reminds me of how someone searches the internet or ebay for a product. They want to know all the details before they buy. I am increasingly getting the feeling that teenagers and young adults see spiritual practices like products that they are shopping for on the internet... This is a very recent phenomenon. I believe it is a result of the internet age. teenagers and 20 something-ers have never lived without access to instant communication. So, this is understandable.

However, I have found that it is much better to simply pick a teacher and a practice that you feel drawn to and experience a practice first. No matter how much intellectual info you get about a practice, you will not know what the practice really is like until you do it. I do not think you will be able to figure out what a practice does ahead of time... Until recently (past 10 years or so) people used to ask about how good certain teachers were, because it was assumed that the quality of a practice was more about who they were learning from instead of what they were learning. It doesn't matter what the practice is, if you have a bad teacher or are learning only from books, it won't matter if you have the best practice in the world... However, if you have a good teacher and are only learning "Basic" qigong, you will gain everything.... There was a saying in martial arts... "you don't fight the art, you fight the fighter..." So, I suggest stop shopping for a style and start shopping for a teacher...

Then again, apparently I am a dinosaur... Sorry for unloading on you... I have been watching this kind of thinking increasing unchecked on this forum recently...

Good luck with your search...

Very Good Question. It is very good to know the difference between different practices so that you can know how to best practice them together or not.

What did your teacher say when you asked him/her?

The second theory is that we simply lack discipline and that we should work at learning to controlling our minds as the mind is a tool that when out of control can cause us to suffer with excessive thoughts and emotions.

When you say "mind" it sounds like intellect to me which is vastly different than true mind. Using the intellect to repress emotions is what modern Westerners do best! The left brain/intellect is not capable of processing emotions so it stuffs them down. This is good during a crisis situation, but once the crisis has passed, then the individual then can feel and process the emotions. So, by not taking the time to process and feel emotions, many modern Westerners are in a continual state of increasing crisis. No wonder we have so many medical issues in the West!

Unfortunately, when the intellect is called upon every time there is an intense emotion, then the intellect takes supreme control, it believes it is the true mind. Conversely,The spiritual mind which reflects the spirit enjoys processing emotions and transforming that energy into wisdom and knowledge...

P.S. Sorry Astral, I have not called you yet. I've been a little busy on my end...