fiveelementtao

This gets to the heart of many arguments I have with Immortals posts. Too often they're agenda driven and all too willing to distort or bias records. Nothing wrong with speculation, but its dangerous when its not presented as such.

 

When far fetched speculation is stated as fact, you begin to build skyscrapers on shaky ground. To me, the pity is the first layer is sound and needs honest analysis. Move too quickly from this ancient city is underwater to must be the alien builders and you scare away honest archaeology.

I agree.

I do not think I4L is a conscious racist. But, the fact that he doesn't seem to understand or take into consideration the racist roots of some of the theories he incorporates into his hodge-podge of arguments only shows the serious lack of critical awareness and research he brings to his arguments. Or the fact that he doesn't understand how his views and how he presents them can be seriously offensive to many. I don't think he understands what he is doing or saying much of the time. He doesn't get it... BUT... Ignorance is not an excuse.

I am sure he is sincere but so are fundamentalist christians. IMO, if he were to introduce topics and then open it up for dialogue and leave the discussion open for credible evidence and logic, then he would be contributing to furthering understanding. But, he introduces these threads and then simply attacks any credible evidence or argument against his unfounded agenda driven arguments.

His attitude in these threads is not one of open dialogue but of one-sided proselyzation. I think that is the basis for moving his threads. He has been very consistent with his attitude and methodology. THAT is why he needs to be moved to the pit, not because the general topics are taboo or because he is a bad guy, but because he does not understand the concept of open dialogue, personal responsibility and tolerance of the views of others.

I think I4L has proven that in these threads, he does not contribute to the spirit of the forum that seeks to open minds, create dialogue.

I vote that ALL his threads be moved to the pit where there is no moderation and people can indulge in whatever craziness they want. Those who enjoy I4L's threads can come here as much as they want and view his agenda driven, fundamentalist rants along with his threads about how to pick up girls through NLP.

I think that if the forum allows I4L to flood the general discussion area with this stuff that it will attract more of the same and it will erode the already declining value of this forum. THe pit is here for a reason. People can discuss just about anything without it contaminating the rest of the forum. In this case, while I4L is probably a good and sincere ( although seriously misguided) person, that in itself does not necessitate indulging this kind of serious irresponsibility to intelligence and objective observation.

Move him to the pit and get it over with already...

now that we have a conflict on the topic of racism and racist images

 

Lets leave the choice about the nature of your post to the future readers.

 

Whether you have an agenda or not the images are clearly offensive

 

Lets leave the choice about the nature of your post to the future readers.

Just popping in to enjoy the flying fur and to once again suggest that these threads be moved into the pit where they belong...

Peace out.

Idk um this feels like spam to me. Normally i dont care about this stuff but today feels different.

here is a working link http://www.jingattiig.webs.com/

Well, it is certainly advertisement and self-promotion. Nothing necessarily wrong with that if pertinent and true. I wouldn't call it spam. I do agree that there is something fishy going on (not necessarily with BlueCW but with his teacher) It is undoubtedly pertinent being of a Taoist nature. Bluecliffwanderer seems sincere enough But some things regarding the monastery where he trained are unclear to me though...

I googled Tao Wu Shin monastery and found this site. http://taowushinmonastery.org so, the monastery mentioned definitely exists and the grandmaster is named Wolf. So, that checks out. But neither site gives any information about what Taoist sect this comes from.

From the Tao Wu Shin website, Grandmaster Wolf says about himself," Wolf Attiig is an Ordained Taoist Monk and has been since the early seventies. He has studied Tibetan Mind Studies (??) for six years whilst living in a Tibetan Monastery (which monastery?) deep in the Himalayas. Wolf spent another two years studying in a mystical Monastery (which monastery?) in Northern Thailand."

Master Wolf is not shy about promoting his exceptional abilities and the honors he claimed to have received but the fact that he does not say what organizations honored him is suspicious to me.

In terms of his ordination, Master Wolf suspiciously does not state from which sect(s) he received his ordination. Most ordained Taoists are very forthright in detailing, the sect, their teacher, their lineage etc... Wolf does not reveal any of that.

Another confusing fact is that Tibet is usually associated with Buddhism not Taoism. Thailand is also usually associated with buddhism not taoism.

Master Wolf's site has some photo galleries and from what I could tell, the martial arts looked exactly like Shao Lin style hard martial arts or Japanese style Karate.

All of the instructors in the photos sport shaved heads which is reminiscent of Buddhist monks rather than Taoist adepts. Taoist monks and priests do not shave their heads. Buddhist monks do.

There are just too many inconsistencies and important details left out for me to think that this guy (Wolf) legitimately studied under an authentic Taoist lineage. Blue Cliff Wanderer is not to blame since he only knows what he was taught and/or told by Master Wolf. I think Master Wolf probably studied Shao Lin Kung Fu and wanted to promote himself as a Shao Lin Monk but knew that he could easily be proven a fraud and he mistakenly thought that it would be easier to pass himself off as a Taoist "monk" instead but didn't really understand the vast differences between Taoism and Buddhism. I might be wrong but that is the only way I can make sense of the Shao Lin looking style Kung fu, the shaved heads and the title of "ordained Taoist Monk" instead of "ordained priest." I could be wrong and if so I heartily apologize.

There are other things that seem fishy to me, but hey what do I know? In all seriousness, who cares about "authenticity". Maybe it's a great school. it seems to have been really healing and helpful to Bluecliffwanderer, so ultimately if it works for you and helps you... Who cares? Call yourself whatever you want. Proof is in the pudding...

Best of luck to bluecliffwanderer, I hope he is successful in creating his monastery.

I have to agree with the finer points you made, but consider this:

 

I want to teach freeloaders, freely. My time is only as valuable as the company i keep with it. If i can improve the life of a "freeloader" and turn their ways around, that is a great potential to improve not only the person, but the community and even the world. One person at a time.

 

 

I can reject no student, no matter their finances or commitment. every grain of sand counts toward the mountain they could build.

HNJT, I am happy to hear that you have a strong desire and plan to teach others...I strongly support your desire to teach and I encourage you to do whatever you need to do to be able to teach qigong to others. Qigong teachers are desperately needed in our world. IME, if you have a strong desire to teach it may be because you have been called to do so.

There are certainly appropriate situations to freely teach others so I don't want to give the impression that one should charge money in every situation. I myself do teach freely quite often and I always seek to provide sliding scales to those who have shown their commitment to learn.

I also agree with what has already been said in that a teacher does not charge for the art itself because any true art is beyond price. There is no amount of money in the Universe that could adequately compensate for a true energy art. The only thing that is being paid for is the time and effort and experience of the teacher.

Having said that..., HNJT, You haven't even trained with a teacher yet but you are already outlining your teaching strategies including what payment will be?

In terms of making determinations now about how much you will or will not charge a student... I promise you when you are in a position where you are supporting yourself and perhaps a family and you have spent years under the direction of a master or teacher and you have first hand experience of what it is actually like to sacrifice your hard earned cash for years and the dedication it took for you to continue your training you may have a different viewpoint regarding this subject.

good luck to you...

I also really enjoy his threads, because much of it, while unorthodox, corresponds well to my exhaustive research. Perhaps his sources are not to your liking, or his manner of speech, but many of us do read his posts with great interest. Moreover, the wealth of material he posts would be problematic if confined to a single thread, despite the correlation of some involved topics. If you don't care to open his threads, don't.

 

Someone claiming to be a teacher of some realization would do well not to make themselves out as childish and petty for such a simple fix.

Hi unmike,

It's not I4L's sources that bother me. It is his underlying emotional agenda in sharing them... I have tried to engage him with questions in order to understand him better to determine my obvious dislike of his threads... He has either been evasive or deliberately selective in his answers. I am now of the opinion that even though i4L is not a Christian, he is still engaged in christian-style proseletyzation. And I don't want to see that on this forum. So, I am speaking out...

I heartily appreciate your sentiment and understand your viewpoint. I have no problem whatsoever with the concepts of alternative archeology. I find the subjects of aliens and atlantis extremely interesting and I would have no issue with more threads concerning these issues. especially if they stimulated honest open minded investigation. I think the resultant discussions would be extremely interesting.

I also appreciate anyone who seeks to promote unity on the board. While I completely understand why I may be percieved as being petty and unspiritual in regard to I4L, I am of the belief that while the subjects he introduces are very interesting, I do not feel his underlying agenda contributes to true investigation and mind expansion.

I accept I4L at his word that he is not a born-again christian. But, myself having been raised in that intellectually and spiritually stifling environment I take great offense at the literalist mindset associated with that type of thinking. IMO, that kind of superstitious, dual, literalist dogmatism that seeks to suppress innovation or alternative thinking to be extremely destructive to honest spiritual inquiry which is what I love about this forum.

What I find most offensive is what I perceive to be the conscious obfuscation of agenda here... Which is nothing less than proseletyzation through deliberate manipulation of information to fit one's agenda...

I have mentioned to I4L a couple of times that I sensed he is not being forthright with his agenda here. When challenged, he becomes very evasive and deflecting, Which is exactly what fundamentalist christians do when confronted with their illogic. I believe his intention is not to engage in dialogue but to proseletyze others into adopting his anti- science, anti evolution bias. He has stated that he believes that science and evolution are a threat to "true" spirituality. While he himself is not a fundamentalist christian, he is identical to them in his thinking process. I think he has proven that his bias against science is so severe that he is willing to distort any information he presents in order to promote his irrational dislike of it.

I do not want to see this forum disintegrate into another new-age nonsense forum. I want to see this forum stay true to it's original intent which is to be an arena where those interested in energetic practices of cultivation can come and share what they have learned.

I don't how else to say it. I love this forum and I do not like the idea that spiritual dogmatists hiding their true agendas can come here and spam it with ignorance promoting suppression.... I don't like it at all...

It seems every few months I threaten to leave this forum... If this forum degenerates into a place where this kind of stuff takes precedence over practice oriented stuff... I may either have no choice or get myself banned for speaking out one time too often...

In any case, I wish I4L would take his religious dogma somewhere else....While the subjects of aliens and lost civilations definitely, IMO, has a place on this forum. I do not believe that religious fundamentalism does. Or at the very least, it should be exposed for what it is instead of masquerading as "alternative."

So, I understand if my actions have been offensive to some. I hope this explains it a bit...

So, I will leave it here and officially ask any mods out there, I am formally asking that these threads be moved to off topic. I don't think they belong in the general discussion area... Regardless of the outcome, I will leave this issue alone...

I4L,

date shmate, who cares? I'm not attached to any date and I'm not interested in the tit for tat nonsense argument game...

I'm not trying to compete theories with you... I'm not married to mine. I find them interesting but I am open to any verfiable theories... In any case, you are deflecting.. Making this about me does not diminish the fact that you clearly have not done enough research about this subject to even begin offering any definitive theories about it. nor that you are interested in actual objective research. The facts themselves have definitively defeated your premise, not I. trying to discredit me won't somehow make your agenda more valid.

And while I am not a mod and anyone is welcome on this forum. I still do not understand why you are even here on a Taoist forum other than to promote your anti-science agenda. You are extremely selective about what questions or challenges you respond to. You have not stated whether you practice any form of energetic or meditative cultivation practice. So why are you here? As far as I know you do not participate in any discussions about energetic or meditative practices. The only threads of yours I have read concern this new-age fringe Pseudo science and how to pick up girls... So, I find it annoying that you keep filling the board with your anti-science, alien, atlantis agenda. If you contributed constructively to other threads or other subjects that are in line with this forum, I would be far less annoyed with your threads.

On the whole I object to your participation in the furtherance of ignorance, superstition and closemindedness. I find your lack of critical awareness a negative influence on the spirit of the forum. I know that some on this board have personal difficulty with confrontation and so they humor you in the spirit of unity, But, until I lose interest, I plan on calling you on your agenda driven B.S. and voicing my displeasure at you spamming the forum with this nonsense... Perhaps I am only fueling your desire to have pointless arguments. I'm not sure yet.. But I wish you would share this stuff in a more appropriate venue or in the "off topic section" or better yet get your own personal practice forum and knock it off with the proseletyzing...

More-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12300228

All that says is that there is some discrepency as to when modern humans left Africa. It has ZERO bearing on the inconsistencies with your theory. For me, it just means that the date of the migrations may need to be adjusted. That is all...

Again... Lack of critical thinking and lack of thoroughly thinking through your position...

I4L, you can use the typical TTB's tactic of cherry picking a few lines and getting into semantics while simultaneously avoiding the larger challenges to your argument. And while it may work on the schoolyard, it still doesn't diminish the severe lack of evidence and logic in your theories which you conveniently continue to avoid...

Attempting to put a date of 50,000 BC or even further back to all of this is just not following Occam's Razor.

How so? So, your saying that oral tradition is less logical than aliens or mythical lost civilizations? I am not completely sold on my theory but as far as occam's razor goes, my theory is far more reasonable than aliens or lost civilizations...

There is also a huge Gap between this theorized "African orgin" of the Swastika,

Very true. For me this is just an interesting theory which can be explained as a possibility within established scientific evidence.

But, while there is gap in time, it is not an elaborate theory at all. It is extremely simple. YOUR theory of aliens and lost continents and civilizations is extremely elaborate and has HUGE gaps in it and is supported by NO established scientific evidence.

the supposed Indo-Eurpopean culture,

Your bias is showing through here too. The Indo-european language family is an absolute fact. I gather from your statement here that the proven reality of the IE language and it's influence on prehistoric culture somehow doesn't help your theory so, as with many other facts that don't help your agenda, you conveniently write it off. But, if you want to disprove something you need EVIDENCE. You have provided none.

In terms of the use of the swastika, you only cited "asians" (whatever that means) and "Native Americans" in your argument. You either have not done enough research to know that the swastika is found far, far more prominently and far earlier in the historic and archeological record in Pre-Christian Europe and India than in Asia and The New World combined or you chose to ignore that fact because it did not serve your theory. (I suspect it is the former)

I am open to the possibility that the swastika has multiple origins, but since you are positing that the swastika has only one source and if I follow your logic, then the only source for it would have to be the Indo-European culture...

There is still no need to go beyond 12,000 years ago to explain the curious facts examined here.

Why is there "no need"? Because it doesn't support your agenda? Time is absolutely a factor here... You can't just simply put an arbitrary beginning point to your research and theories unless you can back them up with evidence... In fact, I would counter that there is "no need" NOT to allow for a longer period of time. But even if you are right and the swastika has it's origins 12,000 years ago, then if I follow your logic again, the Indo-Europeans are the only source possible. If we go further back in time, then that opens it up to other sources...

While you have cherry picked these few things to argue, you still have not addressed the unavoidable inconsistency of the Hopi position on the origins of civlization and your flagrant use of that same culture to promote your theories which are not found in Hopi tradition...

I4L, I do enjoy your unusual and interesting "evidence" but what I find most annoying about you is that you clearly have assumptions and agendas that you rarely state upfront. So, while your posts are interesting, I don;t know what point you are trying to make and it makes feel like you are trying to hide something or sneak it past. Perhaps because you know that you will be seriously challenged if you are upfront about your agenda... I don't think you have thoroughly thought through your positions and in this case you clearly have done little to no research on the provable history of the Swastika... Agendas and assumptions are necessary but in order to logically present a theory you have to at least be aware of what your assumptions and agendas are and be able to present them logically. If there are possible holes in your theories and you want to address them in order to prove your theories, you need to do so openly so that people can follow your logic...

I am letting you know that I will continually challenge your findings as long as they are presented in this self-referential and biased way. Not because I am not interested in the subject, but because I personally am opposed to flagrant avoidance of critical thinking. I think it sets a poor standard for this forum. Some of the newer members would be better influenced and encouraged by examples of logical, critical thinking skills and the humility of not presenting personal biases over thorough research...

I took no offense. It was a great opportunity to share an important concept. What I share is just my opinion based on my experience. Take it for what that is worth to you...

You share some very good values. People do share for free. Now more than ever before in history. I have many free videos all over the internet. Books are easily available. So, there are more ways now than ever before to freely share these teachings.

I aspire to help those who cant (afford to) help themselves.

How do you know they can't help themselves? I understand where you are coming from, but to project onto others that they are not able to help themselves is counterproductive to the whole idea of self improvement. The Universe wants to help each of us reach our spiritual potential and will provide us with whatever we need. When we percieve that we are lacking in any resources, it is because the Universe is pushing us to dig deeper and as we do, She provides what we need. So, while I have shared this sentiment myself in the past, I see now that to project that kind of weakness on others is destructive to their spirits...

is that people who have truly reached a mastery of these such arts would be in a state of being to which it is no sacrifice to share their time and wisdom.

I completely understand your sentiment. But, what do you base this perception on? Books? Your own desires? Your experience of masters? But assuming you achieve what you want for yourself and are able to help "the less fortunate" with free teaching, how is it that you will be so wealthy that you have all this free time to just give away teachings to other people?

Will your qigong skills have made it so you don't need money? Will you have figured out how to use your qigong skills to become rich. Or will you go beyond the need for food and shelter?

If you don't even know how you will be in such a place that you will not need anything, how do you know that this state exists for the real flesh and blood teachers who will become your teachers?

IME, There are masters who are in that state you describe but they are not in human form. They are the ascended masters. They are there with you right now and they are probably responsible for your desire to learn this stuff. But, they are even more picky when it comes to testing a student's resolve. They are the ones who will guide you to a teacher if you are meant to have one. If you truly want to find one, then be grateful for the resources you have now and do your damnedest to learn the best you can and the ascended masters will take note of it and guide you to your teacher.

30 years ago, I felt just like you do. But in those days, there was no internet, few books on the subject and I remember feeling so frustrated that a master like Don Juan Matus wasn't teaching me. I remember thinking that if I got that kind of a teacher, I would become an immortal and then freely give to others what I wanted. But as I look back, my desire to help others was really my selfish projection of what I wanted others to do for me. As I have gotten older I have come to learn that the traditional ways of learning and teaching are there for a reason. Because that is what works. And IME, that is what the ascended masters want to preserve. What you describe sounds like charity to me. IME, Students do not grow in an atmosphere of charity. They prosper in an atmosphere of dynamic growth...

But, the question is: Will you be willing to do what you need to or go where you need to go. Your perceptions that there are "unfortunates" in the world and the idea that people need someone to give them what they need will, IME, foster a victim mentality that will block you from hearing the Ascended masters when they try to encourage you to step out, have faith and take risks....

IME, there are no victims and any perceived victimization we experience is our own doing. Nobody needs you to become a super hero teacher. They need you to be a human teacher... A true teacher allows their students to rise to the occasion. Your future students will not benefit from your charity. They will benefit from your belief that they can rise to meet your expectations...

I; a pupil's time and effort are significantly stronger indicators to their worthiness as a student than the number of hundreds of dollars they can contribute to the teacher and his/her practice.

As I already stated your time and your effort are already a given. A lifeless book will require your time and effort. How does your time and effort compensate a live flesh and blood person for their time and effort? What if you teacher needs money to eat and pay rent? Do you think that your time will be more valuable to him/her than your money?

I understand that your opinion is important to you. But if you want a teacher's time and experience, you will need to indicate your worthiness in ways that they, not you, feel are important...

That is only my limited opinion based on my limited understanding...

Good luck in your search...

You have gotten some very generous offers. I am also humbled by the positive responses you have recieved. I would consider taking those free offers if they prove to be good sources...

However, your post has a couple of assumptions that I want to explore with you.

The first is that you need to learn advanced techniques right away!

While I understand the desire to learn something you enjoy as fast possible, part of the process of learning these disciplines is patience and persistence. Without them, you will not learn very well. Demanding that the Universe give you the best RIGHT NOW and according to your demands (i.e. a master must come to you now and teach you for free) this attitude is antithetical to the idea of patience and persistence which says, "I am going to commit to understand and learn what I have until I can find a teacher." This is the kind of attitude that a teacher will look for. I can tell you from experience that there is nothing more disappointing then to devote huge amounts of time and energy into a student only to see them not put the time and effort into learning what you teach them. So, if you come across as someone who feels as though they deserve to be taught and are impatient, a true master will not want to teach you the higher level stuff... If you really want to attract a true master, the first thing to do is endeavor to become a true student. A true student is hungry but is not desperate, impatient or demanding.

The second assumption you clearly state when you say:

I firmly beleive a true person would share life-preserving and life-forging wisdom without expectation of payment by any means but the pupil's time and effort!

This is your belief. But what is it based on? Your desire? You are poor and can't afford to pay a master? Completely understandable, I think most of us have been in your shoes. For a poor young person who is trying to go to school and find a job, it is a huge sacrifice to then also pay someone to teach you an energetic skill. Wouldn;t it be nice if some wealthy spiritual master could come along who has nothing better to do than to spend his or her free time to focus on you and teach you the high level techniques that they themselves have spent a lifetime sweating over and sacrificing to master? This is the parent's job not the teacher's. So, often times when I hear this from students, I wonder if they are seeking a parent or a teacher. There is a difference.

The assumption here is that your time is valuable to the teacher. Let's think about this. Your time is clearly valuable to you. very understandable. But is your time valuable to the teacher? The teacher's time is valuable to him/her. The teacher's time is definitely valuable to you because you are the one learning from the teacher. You have sought the teacher out to ask for them to sacrifice their time for you. But you assume that the teacher is also seeking you out and is somehow benefitted by your sacrifice of time. So, let's be real.. your time is no payment at all. Your time is necessary for you to learn, it is not something extra that you have sacrificed. Your time is the very minimum necessary. The teacher has already put his or her time into their learning. They don't need to give it to you. So, for them their time IS a sacrifice. Yours is not...

The most important thing a teacher wants is to preserve the tradition for future generations. When people first want to teach, they are usually willing to teach for free and this is good because this teaches them about their tradition on a deeper level. So, if the student doesn't follow through, then at least they have sharpened their teaching skills and this is a good transaction for them. But once they have sharpened their teaching skills, the next thing a teacher looks for is a worthy student. And they will test you to see if you will stand up to the rigors of learning. The easiest way to do this in modern times is to charge money. In times, past, you had to perform manual labor etc... Today, it's money. If you are broke, and you go the extra mile to find money to pay a teacher, then you show that you have the tenacity to learn... I taught for free for years when I started out as a teacher until after I got better at teaching and having experienced alot of students who did not appreciate the free teaching and wasted ALOT of my time, I realized that it was disrespectful to the tradition to give away my time to those who were not learning and appreciating what I was teaching them. That is when I started charging money. I found out very quickly that if someone was willing to pay money to learn that they were more likely to practice what I taught them. If they weren;t willing to pay, then I knew that they would probably not survive when the training got harder... So, If you act like a victim and complain about not having money and needing to pay for school, then you come across as one who won't follow through when the teaching is difficult.

While the teacher may also get some benefit from sharing their experience, from a teacher's perspective, I can tell that there is nothing, and I mean nothing more offensive than a self-righteous student who believes that they are doing the teacher a favor by allowing them to teach him/her. That somehow just by learning that in itself is payment... Very narcissistic... I can guarantee you that a real teacher will demand that you sacrifice more than just your time and presence to learn. Even if they are wealthy and don't need your money, a good teacher will demand that you sacrifice something very valuable to teach you. perhaps that you devote time to charity or something. But, I have learned that if the sacrifice a student makes doesn't hurt at least a little, then they will not appreciate the training and will drop it the moment it becomes difficult. If however, they are sacrificing something and it hurts to do so, then they will make damn sure that they learn what you teach because they don't want to waste their money. If the student is unwilling or feel they are too good to sacrifice something of value to learn, then you know that when the training gets difficult, they will drop the teaching and will have wasted your time and devalued the tradition. And as a teacher, you do not want to devalue the teaching that your teachers gave to you...

But I can also say that the greatest gift a teacher can receive is the knowledge that someone has preserved the tradition they teach. There are people I have charged alot of money for private lessons who have discarded the teachings and there are others who I have not charged very much who have honored and kept the teachings I have shared. I appreciate those who stick with it more than those who pay. But, I still need to eat. A true student understands this and is willing to enchange energy in an appropriate manner.

Teachers do need to eat. This is reality. To think otherwise is childish. It may work great in the movies. But real life masters still need to eat and pay mortgages just like everybody else. If you understand that you have to pay the grocer for food, it is not a stretch to understand that your qigong teacher needs to eat.

So, if you cannot pay, you may want to seek out new teachers who are eager to teach for free. If you feel you need a master right now... Expect that he/she will demand sacrifice from you, because their primary goal is to find a worthy student who will not waste their time.

It's not a completely simple matter, however, in the specific case of Native Americans and Asians, I believe the best short explanation I can make was in the OP when I said....

 

"The most reasonable determination is that the Hopi and Tibetan traditions share a common ancestor tradition that existed in a lost pre-historic culture, and when it was destroyed, that tradition came to influence the Hopi in America, and came to influence the Asians in Asia."

This is where I think your agenda is influencing your understanding of history and your interpretation of it.

The asians got the swastika from the buddhist culture in India which inherited it from the vedic culture. The vedic culture is an indo european culture. The swastika is found throughout all of pre-historic indo-european culture including celtic,germanic, slavic, greek etc...My link

So, there is no mystery how the swastika got to asia. it was imported through buddhism from indo-european culture. The only mystery is where did the native americans get it? Your theory sounds like you believe it was imported to the americas from atlantis.

I am going to give you back your occam's razor. The easiest, most simple and reasonable explanation is that at one time the native american culture and the indo-european culture once came from a common root culture and this symbol was passed down orally. THis would mean that the swastika was a shamanic symbol used by the original human migrants into the northern hemishpere.

The same hopi tradition you are using to justify your atlantis theory also talks about how the Great Spirit called all the people together and sent them out into the four directions to learn the elements. Black -west to learn water, Yellow- east to learn Air, Red- South to learn Earth and White - North to learn Fire. So, according the same hopi tradition you are using to promote your agenda, they teach that all people on the planet come from an original culture. In order for that culture to predate the genetic adaptation of skin color, it must have been at least 50,000 years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzjgL8YAmN4

This would mean that this message was given to humans before they left Africa. In order for the blacks to have gone west to learn water, they would already have to be in Africa. 70,000 years ago (according to modern science) Sorry, I know that bothers you... According to the latest dna and archeological evidence, the modern human race was almost wiped out until around 70,000 years ago, humans began migrating out of east africa where the last humans had survived. The "blacks" who are modern day africans migrated West. after other migrants had made it into the northern hemisphere, they split again those who went into Europe went west and NORTH. Those who went to asia, went East and those who eventually made it into the Americas went East and then SOUTH. So, all the directions of the people according to the hopis can be seen in modern dna and archeological science.

I do find your information interesting, but your conclusions are based in your agenda. You are forcing your agenda onto your evidence.

What incredibly wonderful responses! Thank you, everybody. I had heard the term Internal Alchemy used in these forums but didn't know if it pertained to the inner journey or not. I'm very happy to know that there are equivalents in each. In my experience, the essence can only be found through the inner journey.

 

5-ET, a rarely disagree with anything you ever say. But when you say seeing both religions as One is simplistic, I see it instead as enlightened. Go figure

Well then perhaps those of us less enlightened folks need to first understand the differences before we can integrate them and become enlightened. In either case, I'm sure there is a place for both viewpoints..

Are we not all talking about the same thing?

I see it similarly to discussing practices like Internal Martial Arts. As you approach the subject from a distance, there is value in discussing the general, foundational understandings of Qi, rooting etc... But as you get closer, you find that while there are unifying factors in all the IMAs it also becomes necessary to start distunguishing the differences if one is to gain maximum benefit from each practice. Tai Chi and Bagua have alot of similarities and reflect the same general taoist principles, but when it comes to applying those principles, each IMA has different strategies and for one to be proficient in applying each art, it then becomes necessary to focus on the differences.

So, without meaning any criticism, I feel that proclaiming these two religions as "One" is too superficial of an understanding. From a distance, we can find universal similarities and they both may reach the same goal, but it is also OK to acknowledge that each travels a different path to reach that goal...

I would also agree that Buddhism IME, tends to be more of a "savior" type of religion whereas Taoism tends to focus on harmony and balance. Taoists focus on balance and immortality. Buddhists focus on enlightenment and transcendence. There is a difference between the two.

IMO I don't think going back 70,000 years is necessary to explain it.

 

There is a principle called Occam's Razor which states that when formulating a theory, to never add uneccessary elements to the theory. In laymen's terms it is sometimes explained as "the simplest explanation is the best", though that is not quite an accurate description.

 

So if it can be explained by going back 10,000 years, barring any new or additional evidence, there is no need to go back 70,000 years to explain it.

Thanks for the critique... OK, so then what is YOUR theory about how this symbol became dispersed around the world?

I find this info very interesting. My take is that the swastika is a symbol that is a remnant from the original shamanic culture of Homo sapiens in Africa from at least 70,000 years ago before modern humans migrated from Africa.

IMO, for this symbol to be found in so many indigenous cultures around the world, then humans must have brought this symbol with them as they migrated out of Africa into different areas over many thousands of years. It must have been a tremendously powerful symbol since different human cultures brought this symbol with them and retained it's use even as humans adapted into the different races and cultures as they are today.

I4L what is your theory as to why the Swastika is found all over the world?

What Fiveelementtao wants to do, is to pigeon hole me.

Not true. I am honestly trying to understand you. I find your reasoning difficult to understand. I took a calculated risk in being confrontational with you because you were being extremely evasive. I figured that if I took a risk and confronted you that you would either ignore me or refuse to answer, in which case I would have dropped the whole thing OR.. if you did decide to answer my questions directly, (which you did - thank you) Then I would drop the confrontational mode and ask some more questions to help me understand your motives and point of view which as of now are confusing to me.

So, my apologies for any rudeness on my part if I was offensive.

What is confusing me now is... I personally think Cayce is really cool and actually alot of the stuff you share is also very interesting. It fits into my theories differently than yours but.. that's besides the point...

Here's my question: Many people like me really enjoy alot of the interesting evidence you bring here, but we do not necessarily come to same conclusions as you. In fact, I don't think your evidence necessitates any conclusions.

It seems clear that your motive is to help us come to your way of thinking in terms of evolution. How do explain the fact that many, if not most of us who view your evidence, (assuming we find it credible) still have no problems with science and evolution?

Do you think that your arguments are slef-evident in leading one to the extreme conclusions you are coming to?

Thanks for your responses...

Mike

You're interested in trying to out him as a Christian fundamentalist who is trying to convert people or something, so that everyone will agree that his posts should all be placed in one thread.

 

Just knock off the silliness. If you're interested in him, try being friendly and less confrontational. If you want to have an off topic discussion, do it in PM please.

 

As for your disrespect towards me, and lack of personal honesty in your own actions within our interaction...that's noted, and I am pointing it out to you as something to work on.

Scotty.. I4L is perfectly capable of speaking for himself. Your first post was a threat to report me. I don't like being threatened.. I do not consider you a mod for this forum and feel no need to follow your instructions or commands. I have nothing against you personally but if you remember a few years ago when you tried to tell me what to post and not post on this forum, you may remember my reaction to you... you weren't very successful in getting me to post according to your standards then. I haven't changed in that regard now. So, you're wasting your breath if you think you can start telling me what to do now and expect me to obey you.

I would also like to point out that I have had to wade through your extremely messy and aggressive posts towards others recently which got you suspended, you then felt the need to spam the forum with multiple aliases and as I gather, you almost got banned for life for doing it. I found your behavior very objectionable, but I said nothing. You know why? It wasn't my fight. I would ask you to give me the same courtesy. I am talking to I4L here, not you.

If you don't like my posts, I suggest you put me on ignore so you don't have to read them. I am not at all interested in arguing with you further nor do I feel any need to do so. So on ignore status you go, my friend... see you in a few years... Good luck to you...

Fiveelementtao,

 

I'm about to report you for harassing and trolling (by making a bunch of off topic posts).

 

Your behavior here is confusing, and from my point of view, pointless. What's YOUR agenda here?

 

It'd be nice if you dropped it. Whatever it is.

Do whatever you need to do, Bra. I have not been insulting. I am generally interested in understanding him and I am not asking him anything I myself would not be willing to answer...

If you don't like my posts. don't read them...

The first link given in the OP is good starting point for researching the origins of human beings.

I just want to know the general direction you are coming from...

So, are you saying that you believe the teachings of Edgar Cayce or something similar? Please just answer, generally yes or no. Thanks

I can't answer it because the question is a fallacy-

Jesus, dude do you smoke alot of pot or something?

It's not a fallacy. quit with the evasiveness. I'm not buying it for a second. I'm not asking for a scientific treatise to prove your beliefs.

I can answer the question very easily. Even if the answer is "I'm not sure." You may not agree with my view or you may find it too simplistic, but I can very easily answer the question. so, cut the crap..

You do believe something and part of that belief is hinged on the personal and emotional agenda of wanting to disprove evolution. So, help me understand you and why this is so important to you.

It doesn't make any sense to me that you are determined to destroy what you perceive to be the spiritually dangerous theory of evolution but then you do not offer a viable alternative. At least christians have logic to their opposition to evolution. They perceive it to be a threat. Obviously so, do you or you wouldn't be so obsessed with disproving it. I just don't know why.

So, humor me... Assuming you are right and the answer to my question is extremely deep and complex and my feeble little brain wouldn't understand it in it's entire grandiosity, just give me the basics of what you believe.

To ask who Created the Universe or Human Beings is begging the question.

My God... Quit with the evasiveness.. Just answer the question. It's not that hard.

Why are you so afraid to answer any personal questions?

Dude... talk about going in one ear and out the other... I said I don't care about evolution vs intelligent design so I am not going to even address your very faulty logic in regard to these definitions..... I know those intellectual distinctions and definitions are important to you.

You are also being very selective and evasive as to any questions about your emotional agenda or your beliefs. Screw the rest of it I don't care about any of that stuff.

I know that you don't believe in Evolution and I believe I know why. I am trying to find out what you believe or what you want to believe.....

In your beliefs... Who created the Universe? Who created Human beings?

Please answer and quit avoiding the questions. The only way I am going to be able to find anything redeaming about your posts is if I understand your emotional agenda...

There cannot be purpose or meaning in the world if evolution is true. Evolution, by it's very nature, rules out any type of divine plan or purpose.

In your opinion perhaps...

That is a very definitive statement that is not self evident. It may be how you feel but just by stating that opinion as fact does not make it so...

However, I do not share your opinion. This is what I see missing in what you present. Many, many many people absolutely categorically disagree with your conclusion. Are we all just abunch of ignorant simpletons that can be forced into your opinons by making a bunch of unsubstantiated statements you feel are facts? The point here for me is to understand your emotional agenda behind your beliefs. That is what I want to stay focused on. I am not interested in allowing you to devolve this into the usual arguments you like to have. I am asking about YOU. I want to bring you back to my main question which is: What is YOUR personal, emotional agenda with this issue?

There cannot be purpose or meaning in the world if evolution is true. Evolution, by it's very nature, rules out any type of divine plan or purpose.

So, what I am hearing in this statement is that for you, unless there is some higher intelligence, be it a god or an alien or some other force that imposes its will upon material reality and fashions life in a very obvious way, then you feel as though you live in an empty Universe and you are alone... That is your emotional issue that I believe you are projecting onto science. IMO, I don't think you have a scientific need to understand the process of creation, you have an emotional need to prove to yourself that you are not alone in the Universe and that some higher being loves you and has a purpose for your life. Well, guess what... I have those very same beliefs and emotional needs as you do and so do many other people that you see as "materialists" but we have differing ideas on how that was done. For us, it is OK if these processes are very subtle. Just because there isn't a "made in heaven" stamp on the Universe does not negate the spiritual processes involved. In other words, just because we disagree with you does not mean we are duped or idiots...

Why is subtlety so frightening to you? Why must the spiritual processes that created our Universe be blatantly obvious to you? Why can you not accept the possibility that who or whatever created the Universe is humble and doesn't need you to give them credit for their ( his, her its') creation.

I myself don't give a rat's ass how the universe was created. I am confortable with my spirituality regardless of the literal "truth". However the Universe was created will in no way minimize the spiritual truth of my exstence... I find any "proof" interesting and if I am able to be persuaded by the objective evidence I will be happy to explore the spiritual ramifications of it.

I do have an agenda with you which is to try and understand the emotional roots of your obsession and my perception of you as an obsessed, frightened person who needs to prove his own agenda at any cost...

So, please tell me what do you believe? Who or what do you think created the Universe?

The reason I did not answer any specific questions was that my time was limited yesterday.

 

No I am not Christian, I don't follow the bible, and my interest in Human Origins and the Origins of Life has nothing to do with Christianity.

Thank you. I appreciate your honesty in answering that question. OK, so that I and others can now have a better appreciation of your posts, what then is your agenda? How does it benefit you and us to dissuade people from evolution?

I do not mean any aggression in this post. But, I believe that knowing one's agendas and those of others helps to establish common ground. So, this is the background of these questions now.

It is clear that you feel very strongly about this. It is clear that you feel that this information is extremely important or you would not keep raising the same issues over and over again. It is clear that you feel that we need this information for our spiritual well being. That is why you keep coming across as a religious fundamentalist. You do understand that in your zeal to prove your beliefs you frequently use extremely questionable sources. You also use very vague ( albeit interesting) evidence from which you make very large leaps in conclusions. i.e. Visual anomolies on video which you then present as irrefutable evidence of prehistoric civilizations which you then state as irrefutable evidence against evolution... For example, some strange looking lines on a video of a sea floor does not necessitate the conclusions you arrive at.

If in fact your beliefs that the theory of evolution is somehow harmful to our spiritual well being and if in fact you really are concerned about helping people understand their true origins, I believe it is in your best interest to be more objective in your research and less eager to jump to conclusions that only favor your understandings...

my interest in Human Origins and the Origins of Life

I have these same interests, but my conclusions are very different than yours. What I don't understand is why the theory of evolution is perceived by you as such a dangerous threat to your beliefs. If you were a fundamentalist christian, it would make sense because you would have a very specific religious agenda to promote and defend. You obviously have an agenda that colors your interpretations and drives your research, I just don't know what it is. It appears that your agenda is a religous or spiritual one otherwise, I do not think you would care so much about proving it to others. If I knew what your agenda was, it might make me more willing to listen to you.

If you're not a christian, then, who cares if we are descended from aliens or God created us or if the gods decided to spend aeons crafting bodies that could then house divine intelligence? That is what evolution is to me. You haven't stated what your belief is and why evolution is so threatening to your belief. This makes you appear that you are hiding something and it engenders distrust against you especially from people like me who were raised in fundamentalist christian homes...

I guess I am saying that from your posts I get the feeling that there is a desperation and a disconnect somewhere in your motivations that creates such an intensity in you that you are willing to overlook objectivity and grasp at anything and everything to support your beliefs even if the evidence does not support them. and then you feel the need to barrage us with your very unsubstantiated conclusions. And even though some on this forum may take a casual interest in some "evidence" you bring here, I still don't know what bearing any of it has on the intended focus of this forum which is energetic and spiritual cultivation... You don't share any of your meditative or cultivation practices, so I don't know what you have in common with people here.

I guess I am saying that if you really want to be taken seriously by more people, I suggest a more sober and rational approach to your research and the presentation of your ideas. I especially suggest against sweeping conclusions like "The tree of life is thoroughly debunked" perhaps replace it with headlines like, "strange evidence raises questions into our origins" Then I think people like me would be less irritated with your posts and want to attack your credibility or motives... Anyway something to think about.

Thank you for the positive replies.

 

There should be something for everybody. See the wide range of takes here. For some this is about Mythology, to others it is about Creationism, to others it is about Freemasonry. The cool thing, is it is all of these things and more.

Why will you not answer questions about your personal agenda? We all have one. So, what's yours? Can you at least confirm or deny whether or not you are a creationist Christian? Why the secrecy? If you choose not to answer, I will assume that you are a christian seeking to find converts on a taoist forum. I know others feel similarly. If we are mistaken, there is no reason to avoid the question. If you are a fundamentalist seeking to convert people to christianity, that would be the only reason I can think of why you would avoid the question...

So, are you or not?