fiveelementtao

all your problems come from you not from outside your self

 

You gloria have an agenda. It is not to help others. It is to blame and ridicule

Winpro, my friend. Gloria is hurt and angry from her own personal experience. That is an important difference. People have the right to voice their concerns, frustrations and feelings. I do not sense that people are doing the starjumper thing where they are trying to discredit someone for unrelated personal reasons. It is not helpful to those who are sincerely confused or hurt to try and shut them down. If Kunlun has taught me anything it is that there is no "Right" or "Wrong." You are contributing to the dualistic thinking by implying that people shouldn't be "Rocking the boat." If Kunlun is legitimate, there is no need to defend the practice. All that does is further entrench people against you and the practice. Let people work through their frustrations. It can only make the practice better for everyone.

Your explanations may be correct. I am reading them myself and taking note of them. But, I suggest offering your explanations with more compassion. It will accomplish your goal better...

Mike

I have practiced this art. and I 110% agree! Perfectly said!

 

 

 

If the person has cultivated through virtue and energetics PRIOR to this, then they should be able to have some discernment. But they also need to have a powerful form of protection in the form of direct energetics and prayer. The teacher, IMO and experience, should absolutely provide these methods to the student.

 

First, a person needs a base of operation energetically which requires natural cultivation. So the better way, IMO and experience, is to help the person raise their energy body vibration rate to start a process of opening in a graceful and natural manner. Depending on who they are (spiritual lineage), this process can take a long time OR it can be very quick.

 

Lineage

Spiritual lineage does NOT come from your teacher, only LINE lineage. Look to the Spirits of Light that sit on YOUR counsel table. If you resonate extremely with a particular teaching there is a good chance that you have found a system where the spiritual lineage and line lineage coincide or are "kin". So if you feel you are being bothered or are attacked, say prayers and ask the Beings of Light who are of YOUR spiritual lineage to help. And help they will!

 

So to put it in a nutshell, IMO the folks out there practicing this method who are experiencing problems were "opened up" but way too soon and without proper protection and guidance. I don't think that Max has put any type of "worm" or "virus" nor are you being induced to do things from "spirits of his lineage". But you do need help and guidance if you are experiencing problems. Don't listen to dis-embodied liars. Ask for help from YOUR spiritual lineage, pray, and seek an experienced teacher if you need to.

 

It is time we ALL assumed responsibility and that means I and I and I and I and I...

However I have been able to correct those by slowing down, stopping, or changing my practice based on my intuition and what I have read here and on other forums. I figured out early on that my practice was my responsibility.

 

Funny thing... I left the forum and guess what movie was on TV?

 

9Dl5zqdzhY4&feature

 

This thread has inspired me to continue with my practices but to try and "remember" slowly, in safe, digestable stages...

Hey Yoda,

did you PM me a couple days back? Somebody PMed me and I lost it. Was that you?

Does Kunlun bring up the average joe's inner demons too quickly as simply as that? Or does the Kunlun lineage carry a virus?

 

This is a great question... I think it is worthwhile to back up and define what we mean by lineage in this instance.

 

KL came from two sources.

The Shang Ch'ing arts and Jenny lamb.

 

I am in Max's Shang Ch'ing lineage and I have NEVER been visited by any unfriendlies. I had one encounter about 15 years ago (long before Max) where during meditation, I had an OBE and there was a woman in my room who spoke my name and the power in her voice scared me and I woke up and chased her out. She never came back. I wish I hadn't freaked out, I have no idea if she was there to help me or what. But, she has never come back. I've asked her to and still a no-show.

Around the same time, I had a dream, (more like a memory that I assumed was a dream) where an alien (the big eyed kind) was peering around my bedroom door while I was sitting up in bed as though to say, "Who is this new Spirit Fighter?" I definitely got the vibe that it was just responding to the vibe from the practices and wanted to see where it was coming from. Just curiosity. Never came back. I have had dreams where I was taught by Sifu (the grandmaster). He was always friendly and helpful. Powerful, wierd and mind-blowing dreams, but never fearful. I accidently chased him away in a dream also, and he has not come back. In my experience, any of the Shang Ch'ing visitations have always been very respectful and never pushed my boundaries.

 

I have never heard any students of Jenny's report any negative entities or viruses attacking them.

 

So, the question is: Is it the practices? I think no. Is it the lineage? (Shang Ch'ing or Lamb) I think no.

Is it Max and/or OUR personal psyches responding to Max?

 

What does this say about the teacher student relationship when it comes to powerful spiritual practices?

Lets' assume just for argument's sake that it IS Max projecting his stuff onto us, (I'm nnot saying it is one way or the other) But, If that is the case, I think we STILL have the power (Nay, the responsiblity) to reject what we don't want and protect ourselves and still keep the practice (If we choose). What is more important to each of us? The practice or the teacher? I believe we can isolate the practices from the teacher, but that means we need to take responsibility ourselves for what we allow into our psyches... In essence, we need to become our own teachers...

I personally never bought into the whole lineage thing. Not that I don't accept that there is a lineage, just that, I never felt the need to have spiritual entities guide my practice. Sometimes, in KL, I got the feeling that some people were using the lineage aspect and the spiritual experiences and visitations in an escapist way.

 

Like others, I had one experience with Max where he performed one of his "tricks" on me. I allowed it for a time, but after a couple of seconds, I also said "no." I was in complete control. After that, he didn't ask to try anything on me. I was only interested in the practices, not Max. I enjoyed the show, but it was never about him for me, it was about the practices.

 

So, is it the practice, the lineage or just our psychic cooperation with Max or our psychological projections of Max? If it is the latter, then, that indicates to me that the practices are OK, but we either need to follow a teacher whom we feel safe with OR, separate ourselves from the psyche of the teacher.

 

A fellow taoist friend of mine once told me, "When you ask for help from the immortals, always be sure that you say 'I ask for help from any immortals who are meant to work with me' because not all spirits know what they're doing or have our best interest at heart."

So, I always say "Who are sent by my highest self to guide me." It seems to me that many in KL just allowed any old spirit to show up and do whatever they want without first setting the spiritual boundaries.

Knowledge and Power are not worth a damn without Wisdom.

Amen...

But you're so sweet in public, aint ya?

 

Harboring some resentments?

 

Seriously SJ... then, drink some chamomile tea or something... When I saw the other post, and I thought it might be you... I was actually thinking "Wow, if that's SJ, he has calmed down alot. Good for him!" Then you show up and break your silence by calling me stupid...

P.S. I was recently wondering what had happened to you. Hope you are doing OK... Glad to know you are still alive and kicking...

What exactly is the Red Phoenix technique? Is it the same as the "red sun" practice in the Kunlun book?

No. It is a meditation technique to stimulate the pineal gland and open the central channel. It is only taught in person. It is very powerful and dangerous if done incorrectly. It's a good thing it is not in print... You would have to learn it at a seminar. I don't know if Max's certified teachers teach it or not...

No, stupid, it isn't.

Which is more stupid... To ask or to assume... Take a pill, hot head.

Both the folks I sought help from tried to tap into the presence that was felt during kunlun and found some interesting stuff about the origins of the practice. I tried to do the same thrice and was quite astounded. I do not think it is right to get into all that creepy stuff here but if you want a safe, tested practice with some level of honesty on the part of the teacher, Kunlun may not be the right thing, especially the transmission. I am sure people will disagree but I would rather stick to the advice of two renowed masters of alchemy than amateurish advice. Don't listen to me but please do listen to yourself. Bliss may not be what you really think it is. If someone really needs help in this regard, I am open to guiding them to my Sifu, about who I have spoken before.

 

Dizzydazzle,

Did you used to be known on this board under another name... specifically someone who made cosmic leaps?

So seeing my daughter do kunlun in the middle of the night brings up a new dimension to the personal responsibility theme... even if Kunlun is a totally fine, non-problematic practice with simply issues that it will bring to the surface do I have a right to put that kind of thing at the feet of my 8 year old daughter?

 

I had asked her to test the Kunlun position several times and she was definitely open to the energy of it, but she never practiced it... so it was more than a bit surprising that she would have a strong Kunlun experience in her sleep months later. (She sat up in her sleep and started shaking vigorously for a few seconds, stopped, and then laid back down, her eyes were closed and she had no recollection of the event in the morning but she woke both Mrs Yoda and I up with her shaking, as she sleeps with us.)

 

Another thorny issue: once this sort of thing is activated, where is the stop button? I quit over a month ago but it's still rattling around inside me. Even if I get the actual practice itself to stop, are there deeper components simply chillin' out on inactive status?

 

Yoda

 

I don't have all the answers but I have some ideas... I don't mean to minimize your very prudent and real concerns.

In my experience, children mirror the unconscious of the parents. As your child, your daughter is deeply connected to you. You were having difficulty controlling the "Energy/Spirit" hierarchy within yourself and your daughter was mirroring this. It's important to observe that most of these things happen to us when we are asleep. Why? because that is when our unconscious is in the forefront. Many times, nighttime visitors are projections of our unconscious. The spontaneous Kunlun has the capacity to release the unconscious. So, in terms of your daughter, if YOU are able to take back control of your unconscious, your daughter will mirror that also...

 

In terms of the stop button. (again, not trying to minimize the difficulty). I would do alot of stillness meditation or moving meditation like Tai Chi or Tai chi for enlightenment (I think you know that, right?) and simply tell your unconscious (like it were your child) to stop acting out without your permission. Have a dilaogue with your unconscious and lovingly take back control.

 

Yoda, you were a good student and followed what Max was teaching which was "Submit to the energy. Let it all go." If Max had taught with more discipline and structure, like Jenny. Your result may have been much different. So, I believe you can take back control.

 

My wife is a dog trainer. She breeds a very smart breed of dog. These dogs are great fun, but the owner must be a very dominant pack leader. If the owner doesn't assert authority these dogs will totally control and manipulate them. BUT, if the owner can take charge lovingly, the dog is very obedient. The unconscious is the same. It will continually test us and try and take control. But if we are the loving dominant pack leader, the unconscious will SERVE us. Like our dogs, that is what it wants. To serve. But when we abdicate our leadership, the dog will try to become the pack leader. Not because it wants to, but because there is a leadership vacuum.

 

Again, I do not have all the answers, but this has been my experience and my observations...

..

 

WHAT IS MAX RESPONSIBLE FOR?

 

 

This is a very good question. I am not trying to take any responsibility from the teacher. A teacher is responsible for his students. It's not an either/or situation. Both Teacher and Student are responsible.

However

This is an imperfect world and each of us needs to be responsible for ourselves. No human being is powerful enough to override or take away each of our own personal responsibility for our safety. If we have given up our power, that was our choice. I am not trying to minimize anyone's negative experiences or dismiss any anger toward Max. But, none of us were victims. No one forced any of us to seek out Max or to train with him. No one kept us from stopping the practice either. We all chose to learn from him. We can all choose to stop the practice. If we have been damaged, we need to take appropriate action to heal ourselves. Life is risky. There are no perfect teachers. If we choose to investigate a spiritual practice, we each need to continually be willing to be responsible for the cleanup.

 

So, we can still be hurt or angry at Max. But we also need to remember that we volunteered. Max also warned everyone ahead of time that his Kunlun was a possible rollercoaster. We need to take responsibility for the ticket we each purchased...

I'm fine to be thought of as a completely delusional drama queen and I fervently hope and pray that is how it is.

 

Yoda

 

Master Jedi,

I apologize if I came across as attacking you. I can seem aggressive sometimes. That is my warrior nature and I am working on it. That is not my aim. It is not my desire to classify you as

a completely delusional drama queen

I do not doubt your experiences. I disagree with your possible conclusions.

In the book, "Opening the Dragon Gate" Master Wang Liping shares about these things

P. 165 "there are six main lines of inner work in the human body. The plumb line from the top of the head to genital region was termed... 'The Line of Severance'. When people who practice inner work without the guidance of an enlightened master easily produce distortion, it comes out in this line; when they get fired up and become demonic, that too comes out in this line.

and later

from pg 259

"... three hundred students sat cross legged... with Master Wang Liping... leading them along with his power... All of a sudden these three hundred students started swaying uncontrollably... They shook even more intensley some swayd backward and forward. Some tossed their hands out in rapid movements, some beat their chests, some made graceful dance gestures, some made rapid series of gestures with their hands. Like experts at sign language. All of a sudden some started to wail sorrowfully while others to laugh crazily... when they were done, the students clamored to have Master Wang Liping explain what had happened...The first vehicel is called the random array... the power is allowed to flow spontaneously. Wild wailing and laughing, gesticulating and dancing, all sorts of strange behaviour may come out in those affected. The main purpose begind this is for the one doing the empowering to use this format to observe the nature, chracter, mentality and flaws of the affected individuals. But it does not take a highly advanced individual to produce the random array...

pg 261...Finally Master Wang Liping explained that when spontaneous movements of the body occur during practice, this means ENERGY IS IN FRONT AND SPIRIT IS BEHIND; SPIRIT GOES ALONG WITH ENERGY SO ONE'S BODY HAS NO MASTER. The practitioner should make the self the ruler, turning external movement into internal movement, examining the minute extremely subtle changes within the body in the midst of clear quietude... Gathering medicine is movement. Obtaining Medicine is stillness."

 

The point I am trying to make is that the spontaneous movement has been highly over emphasized and detached from it's original purpose. Many in Kunlun gave up their control in order to have these blissful experiences not fully understanding that the purpose of the spontaneous movement is to reveal what is in the subconscious so that the person can effectively face and transform it through controlled stillness meditation. This is why people are having crazy incontrolled "negative" experiences. If it is indeed attracting negative entities, they are merely responding to the fact the the individual is using the spontaneous movement to give up control of their bodies.

Kunlun has 3 phases. The first is the spontaneous, the other two are also necessary.

 

Some may make the argumant that Max did not explain or make himself available to help. But ultimately the responsibility resides with each of us....

In this thread we are not using the word "lineage" to say where the information came from, nor to refer to the earthly lineage of teacher~student associations. We are using the term lineage, here, to identify the spiritual (non-physical) beings that someone hangs out with. The methods could've come from anywhere. Not necesarily the same.

I understand the current context, but many reading this may not...

I have stood in the back and watched the crazy drama about kunlun for awhile. But since now people are inferring demonic intentions to the actual lineage, I feel it necessary to put the focus back where it belongs; ON OURSELVES!

Some people were using the kunlun "bliss" to escape their feelings rather than face them. If anyone uses powerful energy techniques in this fashion, it is no surprise to me that they will encounter their own unconscious delusions.

 

I do know that if anyone chooses to practice something as powerful as kunlun without taking the responsibility to keep control of their own unconscious garbage, then they are in effect surrendering themselves to their unconscious wierdness.

Some people are angry with Max because they feel he did not do enough to guide them through their experiences. Blaming our personal experiences on the "Evil lineage masters" paints us as victims. This is not Tao. There are no victims in Tao. I have been involved in exorcisms and spiritual cleansings for over 20 years and I can tell you from experience that nothing 'evil' ever attacks someone without their conscious or unconscious permission. The first step in resolving demonic attacks is for the 'victim' to take responsibility for their unconscious projections and unresolved emotional issues.

 

To me, the most logical explanation to what is going on is that the practices are letting loose some pretty serious unconscious things to the surface. It seems to me that what is missing here is the ability of the individuals to take control of their unconscious.

 

For me, meeting Max was a great learning experience. It deepened my understanding of my lineage and confirmed some things I was experiencing in my practices. But I NEVER gave up control of my ego to him nor did I turn over responsibility of my health to him or the practice or the "lineage." I always kept an eye on what was going on and I always listened to my common sense to take care of me.

..

I myself would be interested in sharing the little information I may hold. (although a bunch of Gem imo, what i have to say i'm sure would be a good start off to the thread.) How does that sound to the rest of TTB that are teachers in Taijiquan or assistant teachers? I'd be more then willing to share a bunch of information about it freely.

 

I would pull up a chair and gratefully listen...

You're really angry/paranoid. the posts you are replying to from 'Goldisheavy' are the most even, grounded,simply true,provable posts on this topic AND I 'practice' living and giving in this way too.

GIH is grounded? You mean the guy who, by his own admission only means 50% of what he says? Well, I suppose you are entitled to your opinion...

It is true, I can be a bull-headed, aggro, pit-bull warrior at times. I am working on it...

 

You're right. I have a strong personal connection to this issue. I have been burned by selfish students. But I have also been the sincere seeker who has been hurt by the abusive teacher... I AM angered by teachers who abuse their power to gain cult followers. I have seen it numerous times and experienced it myself once. And in every instance that I have seen it, the teacher said they didn't want money and just wanted to be friends... And in every instance that I have seen, the teachers either abuse the students or abandon them the moment the students don't meet the emotional or ego demands of the teacher and earnest seekers are deeply damaged by it. I have NO doubt that there are quite a few on this forum who are experiencing this right now... So what I learned and my main point I want to make is... that sacrifice in whatever form you want to use,.. money, service, discipline, devotion to the teaching etc... are necessary boundaries for the protection of the Student. And I wanted to send a heartfelt warning to students looking for a friend and a teacher, to stay away from teachers who won't accept payment in some form. There are predatory teachers out there with real skills and powers and teachings who are looking for students to rob energy from. These teachers do NOT represent real spiritual growth...

So, I am not referring to friends sharing and discussing meditation techniques or good samaritans in the neighborhood mentoring kids for free or those who have no actual experience or training in authentic taoist traditions who think that reading alot of books and indulging in intellectual hair splitting somehow gives them some kind of authority... I am referring to teachers in real lineages of actual traditions of energetic alchemy.

Anyway.. I am ready to drop this. I have overstated my points and I am bored with it. Those that understand what I'm saying are already in the choir and those don't agree probably never will... So, I'm ready to be done with this...

He says - that it belongs to a method called

golden dragon - but he insists it's not qigong

as it's not thought - action - but rather a

spirit that helps you. He also used a Somehow the spirit is

activated by the mantra. He tried it without the

mantra but the effect is very weak almost

insignificant.

 

It's a family style. >>

 

Very Baaad Juju.... Using a spirit to do tricks for you in this life gets you in very hot water after you die. That spirit then uses you for tricks in the afterlife. There is always an exchange....

As I suspected. All talk. I will let your words speak for themselves...

and that you might even PAY for it yourself? I mean the teacher might want to PAY THE STUDENT for the privilege of having someone to pass their knowledge onto?

 

I explained that I didn't mean that literally. I didn't suggest the teacher literally pay the student.

I almost never speak 100% literally. I speak about 50% literally and 50% metaphorically. Anyone who takes me 100% literally is an idiot.

(I heartily agree)

 

Unless I explicitly say to take something literally, a person should have the mind open to the fact that what I am saying could very well be metaphorical.

 

How very convenient for you. You can say whatever you want even emphatically and dramtically IN ALL CAPS as if to underscore the literalness of your statement and apply it to anyone else but yourself... and when someone tries to call you on it, you can always point to this quote... I think I will just leave it here...

Don't take what I said about payment too literally. (Do you take everything literally?)

Yes, I always mean what I say.

I have very little tolerance for bullies. You love to fight and you attack peoples' character with frivolous attacks. I have very little tolerance for that. And like most bullies, when confronted and required to follow through, you chicken out.

I won't be formally teaching anything, but if you learn something, that's great.

That's not what you suggested. You suggested that teachers pay their students for the honor of teaching. when I encouraged you to do just that... Now, you say you are kidding and that I shouldn't take you literally. You chickened out. taking a friend out for dinner one time is not teaching. Again I challenge you to follow through with your example of paying someone on a regular basis to follow your teachings. Anything else you mention is a friendship relationship not a teacher relationship. You are too smart not to know the difference. If you follow through and pay someone to learn from you, I will be very eager to see the result of that experience. If not, I know you are all talk and someone to ignore...

actually, I take that back. there is ONE relationship among humans where one person gives everything and asks for nothing, that is a Mother. This is an understandable desire. But a mother pampers and shields their children. A teacher strengthens and enables the student to grow. I submit that anyone who wishes their teacher to be their mother is not really looking for enlightenment, but to still stay a child... Anyway, in my experience, (Which I admit is limited) no human can ever take the place of the mother.... To expect that from another person, is impossible and dangerous....

Like two guys get together to play with the car modifications, two guys can get together to discuss meditation experiences and contemplative topics. It doesn't have to be a job, like a chore, that you must be paid for.

that is not a student teacher relationship. Two guys SHARING info is a two way street. The topic is student teacher relationships. You are talking friends. There is a difference. If you don't know that, you have never been a student. When you went to high school, did your math teacher ask you to teach him about math?

GIH, having seen your love for argument. so,I will not engage with you after this post. You twist words.

If you read my post carefully, you would have read that friendship is already mutually beneficial. That is the exchange. If someone is your friend AND your teacher, then the exchange is lopsided. That was my point. But I practice everything I write about. How about you?

 

It doesn't occur to you in the slightest that it, perhaps...wait for it....WAIT FOR IT.... MIGHT BE DELIGHTFUL and that you might even PAY for it yourself? I mean the teacher might want to PAY THE STUDENT for the privilege of having someone to pass their knowledge onto?

You're kidding me right?... LMFAO

Listen GIH, put your money where your mouth is. Since you are such a High master. I DARE you to pay money to students here on Taobums to learn from you. Invite them to your home, cook for them, teach them your wisdom and then pay them. Everything i talk about I have experienced first hand or actively am doing now.... Put up or shut up. You are all talk. If you can get at least one student that you are paying on a regular basis to come to your home after work and be your friend/student. Then you can open your steam hole and brag about it. If the student also comes on here and shares the experience, I will listen. But after that craziness, I am not going to pay you any more attention. You are in your own world, buddy.