fiveelementtao

Nice chick dancing!!!

You are exactly right! The power and speed of this art comes from the power of the feminine (Yin).

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Riveting! Thank you for sharing that experience with us, Stig...

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No I'm not Max's student.

 

I don't know how much clearer I can get. I think I've made my case clear: don't charge people for knowledge.

 

Cheers,

Ben

You said I didn't understand you. So I gave you a chance to make yourself clear. I think I do understand you, then...

I sure hope.

either that or I have come to believe that he is the representative of the Real Taoism on Earth. Always good to hedge your bets.

yes I have read it. I was wondering if you were being sarcastic or not.

What do you think?

Also please us the story of how you became the living representative of the Taoism Religion on Earth. We all need instruction on how to be True Taoists.

If you visit Mak Tin Si's Site, you will know what I'm talking about. It is very informative

http://www.taoismcanada.com

Naturally over 1000s of years there was going to be those who misunderstood, misapplied, and misused it.

I think that's the point. Just because someone is following a Taoist interpretation of religion does not cure them of their humanity. Again, we need to look at our own individual presuppositions. If we are seeking a spiritual way that will ultimately "Save" us, that is what we will project onto our chosen path.

What I appreciate about taoism is that it is not a rigid system of Right and wrong. The reality of Taoism is that it is our choice how "Pure" we want to be. IMHO this is true in all paths, but it is easier to delude oneself into believing that one is more pure or holy in some other religions. When someone has the mindset, "I follow Buddha or Jesus or Krisha therefore he will purify me and save me." it is easier to stay in denial about the "negative" aspects of our psyche. In Taoism, I am responsible for my actions and if I want to progress, it is up to me to use the tools that taoists have discovered.

I am a little hesitant when people project an inherent purity on to Taoism. I believe that this presupposition can lead to self-denial. I prefer to have nature act like an unbiased mirror and allow me to make my own choices...

The consequences of not being "Pure" are obvious, But if I blindly accept another's view of purity, I am not growing. I prefer a Universe that promotes experimentation and self-discovery...

Mak Tin Si,

Will you please tell us what the phrase "Tin Si" means. Also please us the story of how you became the living representative of the Taoism Religion on Earth. We all need instruction on how to be True Taoists.

Thank You

I guess there are different perceptions of what an immortal is. For instance is it possible to become immortal and have any evil within ?

 

Could "Buddha" be substituted with "Immortal" and say: "An Immortal is an Immortal because there is no evil within them. This is why they are an Immortal. If there was evil, they wouldn't be an Immortal." ??

 

Are there different grades of Immortals?

 

Is there are difference between a Daoist Immortal and a Buddhist Immortal?

 

Are we wasting our time with such conjecture and conceptualisation?

 

Should we have another cup of tea?

This is a GREAT discussion. As in all important matters of discussion, it is important to first isolate and define our presuppositions.

What is an immortal? Is it an energetic or "Spiritual" (moral) state of being?

Is an immortal someone who has refined their nature and is "good"?

Can someone cultivate enough energy to switch dimensions if they are "evil"?

I believe our individual answers to these questions will determine our individual presuppositions.

I think it is important to make a distinction between "Buddha" and a Daoist "immortal".

A daoist immortal is a human who has, through energetic cultivation achieved long physical life and/or raised their energy level to a point where He/She can phase themselves out of this earthly dimension to a "higher" one.

Buddha is said to be an avatar of the Pure Vishnu principle of the Universe. It has a deep connection to Hindu theology and is not the same as a Daoist Immortal. It is conceivable in Buddhist and Hindu tradition for someone to achieve a very high level of energy cultivation and become an immortal and still not have the buddha nature. Many hindu demons are immortals who are extremely powerful but still trapped in their lower spiritual natures.

I can state categorically from my experience with my teachers that Taoists are capable of achieving unbelievable energetic heights. They can easily be mistaken for Divine beings becase of their powers. I trained with one Tao master who was one of these. He died and resurrected himself and was capable of amazing energetic feats, but he was also one of the most emotionally immature and destructive people I have ever known. His energetic accomplishments trapped him in his pride. He was also one of the most unhappy persons I have known. Lonely, bitter and extremely insecure. He may become an immortal, but he is no Buddha.

I believe that many people strive for energetic cultivation because they believe that once they achieve "immortal" status they will be free from pain and strife. I thought this way until I trained for many years with this man. I no longer think this. In fact, I believe that if one were to achieve this status without learning the important lessons of love, humility and kindness, that being an "evil" immortal in the next dimension would be a very lonely hell...

In the world of Daoism, if its too good to be true, it probably is. Basically, if you don't have to

bust your ass for something grand, then don't bother doing it. And if there is a hint of shadyness to your teacher, with an taste of darkness in any manner, there probably is going to be a lot more where that came from.

 

The method is, if there is any harm of any living being within the teachings, its no good, both Buddhist and Daoist values. If there is any manner to gain, and get before others do, to be first, then its no good.

 

Peace,

Lin

Peace and Blessings !!!

 

Thank you! Well said!

I don't think you understand me.

So, then help me understand. You started this thread. It's your responsibility to make yourself clear.

You also didn't answer my question. Are you Max's student?

Benny, I am getting the feeling that you are probably a teenager who is desparate for attention and guidance. If you want someone to teach you the Tao (if such a thing can be taught ). I'm sure if you just asked, many would respond to help you.

I was sent by and for those with True Knowledge to give a voice to the poor, the downtrodden, and the dispossessed.

There are no "poor, downtrodden, or dispossessed." This is an illusion coming from your own projection. Do you feel you are a victim? There is no place for victims in Tao. I will give you your first free lesson in Tao.... YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM UNLESS YOU CHOOSE TO BE.

The way of eternal life need not be commodified. The knowledge of its acquisition need not be quarantined and embargoed.

Way of eternal life???? the Tao is not a religion to save people from their sins... You have a major misconception about what the Tao is. All of us have access to it. Your eternal soul has no need for Taoist teachings. If you need something to save your soul and grant you eternal life, you need a different religion. If you truly study Tao, you should know you have eternity within you at all times... If you think that Taoist teachers are teaching the way to eternal life, you will be sadly disappointed, my friend.

This is my humble opinion.

Now you are being honest. If you had been humble enough to state that from the beginning, I wouldn't have cared. Someone would have helped you understand your misconception.

I give you a final warning: for you who CHARGE people the money of their life for the teaching which is their birthright - you will be hung out to dry in the wind of the dao. Your pattern will be unravelled by the force of that wind and you will be made to pay back all that you have stolen in your passive and wicked way.

This birthright you speak of has nothing to do with what people teach in Taoism. I can tell you from experience having studied with a few "masters", that Taoist masters are subject to the same frailties and pitfalls as anyone else. Taoism cannot "Save" anyone from anything. Pride, ego, fear, insecurity, selfishness and delusion are all challenges we all face whether we are teachers or students. What people charge money for are skills like Tai Chi, Chi Kung, meditation, rituals, mantras etc... which they have worked very hard to learn or discover. They have a right to be compensated for their time. These skills are only helpful tools along the path, they are not the path. But you are right in that none of those skills will insulate them from their own limitations.

you will be made to pay back all that you have stolen in your passive and wicked way

I am afraid you, my friend, are the passive one here. throwing out threats of Doom and guilt is extremely passive aggressive. If you look for greedy Tao masters who hide the secrets of "eternal life" from you. That is what you will find. If you look for friendly guides to help you uncover the eternal divinity within, then you will find that. It's up to you what you will discover.

Wait a minute..... Are you one of Max's students?

Quite right.

I am afraid I have hit the nerve with you, fiveelementtao.

 

Apologies for any discomfort this has caused you.

 

That is all.

 

Ben

you still haven't answered any questions. Whom are you messenger for?

What gives you the right to give this "warning?"

Be a man and back up what you say and stop hiding behind your false humility...

I tend to agree. I try to stay as far away as possible & refuse to study from any master who charges large sums of money (anything more then a red envelope). Its just impossible to develop a true master-student relationship on this basis.

 

If these teachers need money then get off your ass & get a job like the rest of us !!!

So, maybe your teachers should pay YOU? I am amazed that people think that they are doing teachers a favor by allowing them to teach. This is a very westernized concept. In the traditional way, you had to bust your ass, to get anyone to teach you. You not only paid money, you gave up your career and life if necessary and became their personal servants. we don't have to do that anymore... Paying a few dollars is nothing compared to what it cost to learn in times past... People are now teaching their hard earned skills for sometimes only $10 or $15 a class and you feel you are getting ripped off!

I suppose you feel your doctor, plumber, builder, dentist should go and "Get off their ass and get a job" and then come and help you in their spare time for FREE?

Of course not. Hey idiot! Teaching IS their job, you moron. If you don't want to pay anything to learn a priceless art, then don't! You don't deserve to be a student if that is your attitude.

(Harumph!)

You have many questions and I am afraid I have no answers. I am but a humble messenger.

 

My apologies,

Ben

What do you mean you have no answers? What a cop out! If you are spreading warnings of doom, at least have the BALLS to be able to answer for it.

For Whom are you a messenger? Who gives you the right to say such things? If anyone here is in danger of a fiery condemnation my friend, it is you! If I were a christian I would accuse you of blasphemy.

So, what is it you expect? a free ride? we should teach you for free? So, people here who have trained hard and sometimes paid a great deal of money to learn this knowledge for many years should then turn around and hand it to you for NOTHING! You know the old saying? you get what you pay for.

I think you may need some education.

1st. There has always been a rule of exchange. There has to be an exchange of energy. In times past, some students were not charged money. BUT there was always an exchange. In previous cultures, if there was a shaman or Tao master, the village would provide him with offerings for his livelihood, and in exchange he would teach and heal. So, he was paid for his service ALWAYS. In the monasteries, do you think the monks were learning for free because they didn't have to pay money? they paid with their service. they had to farm or work or beg or something to bring in money and supplies for the temple. Are you prepared to become someone's servant and work full time for free in exchange for lessons? Because that is what you are proposing. It is much cheaper now to pay someone a few measly dollars for a lesson and go home with priceless knowledge than to give up your life and become a servant in exchange for learning.

What about today? Today we use money to obtain food and shelter. In our culture people do not set up teachers with free housing and food. Money is the modern vehicle for exchange. teachers deserve to be able to eat and have a roof over their head. Should they be homeless and beg so that you can have free Tao lessons?

It's one thing for you to say that you think people should teach for free, I would simply write it off as innocent ignorance, but when you come on here pretending to be an old testament prophet of doom threatening people with damnation for making an honest living providing a valuable service, I say SHAME ON YOU COWARD!

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Hi everyone,

I'm fairly new to Tao, I love the philosophy part of it and the Tao Te Ching really helps me experience a state of peace. I feel my next goal is to begin meditation so that I can become more aware in everyday life.

I am wondering if anyone can help me along finding a Tao approach to meditation. I have been self-meditating for months now with no real guide so to speak. I just concentrate on my breathing and the flow of energy. Do any of you fellow taobums have any recommendations or approaches that should help me get on my way or guide me along in my meditations? I am doing basic meditations as relaxing the body but I hear there is more you can do with energy and other aspects of body-mind.

I'm thinking about attending a Vispassana retreat and wondering if this would be beneficial or inflict with an original Tao approach of meditation.

Cheers

Mak Tin Si,

Thank you for your answer. Will you please explain more about tolerance for other religions. Is Taoism superior to other religions?

Thank you for replying the post.

 

Humility, compassion, tolerance and love in Taoism are all learned from Taoism trianing experience. Here maybe I can give an example of learning "tolerance" in Taoism training when you are learning under one lineage that teach you FU stuff.

 

When you learn how to do ghost busting, most people go too aggressive, they think that ghost or bad spirits are there for you to go and bust out. Then most people will just go ahead and use all the FU they can to kick out the ghost for others. During the mean while, they will have lots of failures becaues they will find out that these ghosts may not just leave.. they are there for a reason.. on the other side, the Taoist broke the rules of nature becaues they harmed innocent ghost. On the pay back effect, the ghost will be able to harm the taoist indeed. The taoist then will learn how to be patient, listen to their clients, check the whole case, make sure everything first, and then do things careful. On the other side, if you do have tolerance, you can let the ghost harm YOU first and then you will have enough evidence to bust the ghost out. (becaues you are the innocent one) That is just an example of how people learn in FU lineage.

 

The others are also learned by experience too. There is no such TEXT on the topic because you must learn it by experience with the training in TAOISM. Also, one do not tolerate people because their "fire" is too violent. Like bad temper. So the best way is to do more scriptures on "CHING JING SUM GING" and decrease the amount of fire in the person. Or you can go through the trianing and know WHY you have all these bad temper. Maybe because of the bad energy you have accumulated through out years. So you cna cleanse them out with your skills.

 

The others are like that too. You have to find out WHY you do not do well in such virtue. Then you can know HOW you can solve it. It is not about UNDERSTANDING or REALIZSING. It is about knowing the cause and effect in nature that brings you the bad character you have realized. Then you can solve it by going backward and solving the initial cause of the problem.

 

IE: Some people cannot go along nicely with their parents all the time. They just always argue and fight. So a Taoist have to go through lots of trianing. Then they might find out, oh, it is because in my past life, I have such and such matters with my parents, so now they are paying-back on me. Then you learn to be good and tolerance to them so they can pay back everything. Then after all the stuff are paid back, they won't argue with you anymore. The other way is the son/daugther have to learn how to be even BETTER to the parents to pay the debt. Then soon, the relationship will get much better.

Why? I don't really like the internal / external distinction. I've seen really old karate people who are soft and flowing. As well as fat unhealthy tai chi people

 

I prefer a "complete art" which should integrate both the internal and external aspects..... Internal VS external tends to turn into a "mine is better than yours" debate.

 

The aspects you talk about are important and should be present in a complete traditional system IMHO.

The distinction only needs to be made in the context of the original question posed on this thread.

I am wondering if anyone can explain the relevance of martial arts, and even Taiji, in terms of inner-cultivation and enlightenment as well as the Tao.

My intent was to only answer why martial arts are important in relation to inner alchemy in taoism. internal MAs are very helpful in chi cultivation. I was not trying to make a statement of superiority between one or another...

the Martial aspect or the Healing aspect or the Personal transformation aspect are only limitations of the infinite practice of Merging with the Tao.

Elegantly put, Dwai,

thank you for your explanation of your school's explanation on the origin of Tai Chi. very informative and beautiful.

First we need to make a distinction between internal and external martial arts. external MA would be primarily physical arts like western boxing or wrestling. As you get older these arts become more difficult because of the strain on the body. Taoists favor internal martial arts because they use internal energy to achieve their objective

Besides healing and peace of mind, Taoists also sought long life and immortality. For a Taoist, it is important to achieve immortality because, if one dies before reaching enlightenment, that means he/she may have to be reborn and may have to start all over again. It is better to stay in one body as long as possible to reach your goal more quickly.

In order to achieve long life and immortality, one needs to be able to manage and control internal energy. Internal martial arts are a superb way to learn how to gather, harness and increase internal energy.

In order for the internal art to be effective, one must be able to verifiably be able to use the internal energy they have accumulated and stored.

So, taoist martial arts are not just about fighting, but internal alchemy.

Secondly, internal martial arts also teach a way of achieving a dynamic balance mentally, physically and spiritually. Additionally, in China over the centuries ther have been periods where the government has persecuted spiritual movements and practitioners, so it became necessary for taoists to be able to defend themselves.

Mak Tin Si,

Thank for this thread on the importance of Taoist Ethics,

Can you please explain the importance of Humility, Compassion, Tolerance and Love in Taoism? When does a master teach these ethics to his student?

Thank you for your knowledge...

Tai Chi Chuan being a Taoist Martial Art, would have to have it's highest objective as that of merging with the Tao.

If some old master saw blood, odds are they were either speaking allegorically or were not that great a bunch of masters.

 

I think the martial aspect came into existence because the Art and Internal practices would be best preserved that way (I think the Taoist sages had enough foresight to foresee the plight of China, probably for centuries to come).

Dwai,

is this your opinion or is this historical fact?

Is this what practicing a Taoist art means to you? It may mean different things to different people.

It's important that we be able to discern our own personal ideals from the actual history.

Throughout history, many taoists were also fierce warriors. Throughout history the needs of Taoists changed with the times. In other times, Taoists were mercenaries, soldiers and warrior monks. Some Taoists were even assassins. Times were tough and dangerous and Taoists had to be ready to defend themselves in a dangerous world.

If "seeing blood" is against your Taoist ideals, I understand and sympathize, however it may not be a problem for others. Seeing blood may have even been necessary for some to be able to protect themselves and their loved ones in a very dangerous society.

I suggest you do a search on the history of Tai Chi, you will see that it was only in the last hundred years that Tai Chi became divorced from its martial origins to become solely an exercise for health. This health focus was primarily brought to the public by Chen Man Ching.

I'm aware of the combat history of taijiquan, but I think most American taijiquan has been taken over by peace-seeking jedi wannabe's like me.

I apologize if I came off critical. I wouldn't ever say anybody is a wannabe. fact is I use Tai Chi for similar reasons as you do. I find it is a great way to ground and balance the Chi I develop in my primary internal art. I have totally bastardized Tai Chi to fit my needs. So, I am the last one to criticize anyone.