fiveelementtao

Lurking underneath any discussion here is the complication that Jesus and Odin are doing triple duty as immortals, archetypes, and lineage deities.

indeed... No small task...

And that within the lineage space of the Old Germanic path, I felt enmity toward Christianity.

I see what you mean... No doubt there is some karmic anger floating around. History has conveniently erased the last 1,000 years of Imperially driven holocaust that occurred in Northern Europe. Throughout my childhood, I had the impression that Europe gradually, peacefully and voluntarily converted to Imperial Christianity.

Charlemagne after unsuccessfully trying to militarily subjugate the continental Saxons and convert them to his version of Christianity, Slaughtered (beheaded) 4,500 unarmed prisoners (Men and children) at the same time in an act of terror. It is said there were rivers of blood. (and that's only what his historians recorded, imagine what didn't get recorded or was altered to fit within Charlemagne's official version)

Nowadays, people only know of the Vikings as merciless marauders of helpless, innocent English church monasteries. But, what Christian History has not recorded was that for centuries Imperial Roman and later Christian armies were launched from the British Isles and funded by those same monasteries to slaughter and convert pagan tribes under pain of death and torture.

Scandinavia was the last refuge for Teutonic Pagans and knowing that they would be next, I believe that they launched a pro-active campaign against Imperial Christian tyranny in a desperate attempt to save their indigenous religion and way of life...

Thank goodness that Iceland was so far away from mainland Europe or perhaps our ancestral Myths might have been lost forever..

Clearly I have some strong feelings about this, so it makes perfect sense to me that there is some ancestral anger still lurking in the astral plane... One of the reasons I started this path was to try and help heal that ancestral pain and restore a viable European practice. One of my main practices is to perform rituals for my genetic ancestors with a focus on healing both the abused and the abusers....

Thanks for your great feedback,

Mike

This is beautiful, Fiveelementtao.

 

What you have described reminds me of these quotes from Shakyamuni buddha:

 

"All conditioned phenomena are impermanent; subject to decay and disintegration. Work out your own salvations with diligence. This is the last teaching of the Tathagata [buddha.]" Which was said to be given on the day of his "death."

 

And this one from the Diamond sutra:

 

"All phenomena are like

A dream, an illusion, a bubble and a shadow

Like a dew drop and a flash of lightning

Thus you should view them."

 

You should investigate the nature of this dream further.

Thanks Simple Jack,

Beautiful quotes...

If my past experience with these kinds of dreams is any indication, I probably will be uncovering deeper levels of meaning of the symbolism for the rest of my life...

Thanks for the feedback,

Mike

Hi Creation,

It would be great if that lineage and the Christian lineage could coexist"

It can. It does for me. Anyone who has read my book knows that I am a follower of the Gnostic Christ. I even go on to say in my book and my podcast that I believe that if European spirituality had not been hijacked by the altered Imperial version of Christianity (not the actual message of Jesus) and European tribes had been allowed to create their own spirituality organically (instead of having it forced upon them under pain of death) that IMO, I believe that European paganism would have absorbed Jesus into their pantheons in the same way that buddha was absorbed into the Hindu pantheon. I am certain that if allowed to evolve organically modern european religion would be polytheist religion similar to hinduism with Jesus as another supreme deity figure along with Odin, Thor etc..., just as Krishna and Rama today are seen as different aspects of the incarnation of Vishnu. It was the literal dualist dogma interpretation of the Imperial State sponsored church that mandated the destruction of holographic sects of christianity. In fact, I am currently working on the linguistic similarities between the pre-hindu vedic religion and the pre-Christian Teutonic religion. And, the deeper I dig, the more astoundingly clear it is to me that the Vedic deities are the same as the Teutonic ones. The only slight difference is due to the change of pronunciation over time. The hindu religion has no problem with Jesus. The hindu religion is an organic evolution of the Vedic. So, if hindu religion can incorporate or at least accept the validity of Jesus, so can the Teutonic.

and I got a strong "sense" from the Teutonic lineage saying "We don't get along with the Christian lineage!"

That is a very common reaction by many people. I often get inquiries from people asking if they can be a christian and practice teutonic shamanism. The answer is absolutely. I had the same feeling as you at first, but after more meditative journeys about this, I have been given the opposite feeling that the Teutonic path and the path of the original Jesus is totally compatible... My experience of the Astral teachers is that there is not the separation that we experience. IME, They do not see religions or lineages like we do. IN fact, I have more than once gotten a reaction of confusion if I ask a question that supposes a division. I have also gotten the feeling that they have had to show alot patience tolerating my limited dualistic human thinking. They allow me to use the "word" Teutonic because they know I and some other humans need to make a distinction in order to have a frame a reference. But the deities do not make such a distinction. IME, All spiritual knowledge from wherever it comes is free to everyone... So, If my experience means anything, there is room for us all. Teutonic shamanism isn't about religion. It is simply a way to interface with the manifested multiverse from within an ancient European world view...

I actually started crying because it was so upsetting that spiritual lineages were in conflict like this.

You needn't be sad if you don't have any conflict. There is none coming from the deities IME. If humans express conflict, you can make a difference and combine different lineages if it works for you. Let others do whatever they choose. You can be different and set an example.

So, I understand your dismay at the separation of religions. This dream I shared is just that - a dream - If it was in fact a shamanic dream, then it may help to meditate on it symbolically rather than literally. The meaning I take from it is to underscore how so many people over the last 2,000 years have clearly misunderstood and distorted the message of Jesus and what a tragic waste it is that his sacrifice was not understood and in fact has been used as a justification for so much bloodshed and bigotry...

Deities are often judged by the actions of their followers. I do not personally interpret Odin's message to be directed at Jesus himself but at those followers who have abused his message. Just as many wrongly interpret the Muslim faith as one of violence. For those from outside of Christian countries, Jesus is seen as a bigot and murderer because so many self-proclaimed christians have acted this way. So, I believe Odin was directing his comments at the "false" christians, not at Jesus himself...

Another way to look at it is from a polytheist viewpoint which sees the universe as a multiverse where instead of a static peace, there is a dynamic balance. In any dynamic balance, there is conflict. In astrology, the powers of the planets are sometimes in dynamic opposition to one another and we humans see them as being "enemies" but they are just different energies that combine to create the whole. So, from that perspective, it is OK with me if deities have differing viewpoints. They all work together in a holistic fashion...

So, there are many ways to interpret shamanic dreams and visions. IME, they are best handled if meditated upon over time. Many times, the experiences can be unsettling, but those emotions get our attention. I was shocked at the term "Rotting Corpse" but that shocking imagery and stuck with me until I was able to get a deeper understanding of the cyclical nature of the Universe...

I can't speak for Odin or Jesus, but based on the intended emotional impact and how it forced me to reconcile the divergence within me, I feel confident that Jesus himself would have approved of Odin's message... ( and maybe he himslef Told Odin to share it with me in those words....) I know if I were Jesus, I would be pretty sad if I saw people distorting my message the way so many have with his...

Thanks for the feedback...

A dream hold different meaning for different people.

For me the message is :

Even you follow her you will become like her and become rotten.

As she said victim she can say that you have became victim to the idea to

follow and become yourself rotten. Mabye only maybe it is that as the second dream about Odin give the key to understand this dream else you would not mention it.

 

 

Is to follow your own way instead of following someone you think you can learn of.

Things that rotten and die will escape the "trash" and such is the things of life that even shamans will go someday. Those who came before you are gone, so how can you stay when you follow someone who is gone.

 

It is a question why it is to escape world?

When your purpose is to escape why have come into the mess to be in the world?

Since back to the dream the female was against to follow her, she instead if she want you to escape may ask you to come but would you come when she say to come or is

more trusting when she not to come and make you interested to come?

 

The message also could be as she is human she will go as the way human will go, they will die and so you have to find on your own a different way so you not end up like her since you said she is considered as an elder has expirienced so far.

 

It is same as parents when they tell a lot to do and not to do and you not believe until you are adult yourself and you find well they were correct and the same scene is also with Dumbledore and Harry Potter about to be old and forget how it was to be young and to be young not to know to be old yet.

 

So a try to prevent to repeat mistake of those who have come before you.

 

It is two of my interpretation but it is only from my view

and a interpretation is only worth when you look what the issue and topic in life is now in your own life since it is your own dream and you know more about yourself as

it appears to me.

 

Q

Friend... While your post is less nasty than vortex' I think it is coming from a similar place... Seriously, people I didn't share these dreams here so people could use them as an excuse to project whatever personal criticisms they have of me...

I you have issue with my posts, speak your mind in context... This is just gross. I am disgusted... Please allow me some privacy while I put my clothes back on...

Friend you are going on ignore also... bye!

Interesting message, I have a different interpretation though, in case you're interested..?

 

Essentially, it means that you are a victim of your own belief that "older (necessarily) = wiser." Now although this may often be true, it is not always fully synonymous. Yet in your quest to find the truth, you have pursued increasingly more and more ancient esoteric knowledge and effectively equated the 2. To the point now where you must seek dead "masters" of "dead" traditions that no longer even exist (if they ever even truly did). Because that is the only way to keep "progressing" and "trumping" each preceding tradition that you have "outgrown."

 

This ancient woman sitting in a trash heap thus represents a long-deceased, ancestral mother figure/master of a "rotting corpse" of a tradition. But as you seek to become her student, she actually flees you and issues your warning. Now, this is for YOUR own good, not hers. In fact, she actually burrows out of her rotting tradition to escape you (or rather, to help you escape HER) - and in doing so leads you away from both it and her.

 

The bondage here is a dogmatic one to your belief and making the common mistake of confusing a means with its end. So, she is attempting to break this mental "link" that you have subconsciously developed between the 2.

 

In finding your true "self" (or lack thereof), ultimately you have to enter the non-dimensional xiantian state - not the distant past. Which is now only distancing yourself further from your "goal" when taken to that extreme.

 

IOW, going back further and further in time does not bring you any closer to "YOU." Because the real "you" exists only in a non-dimensional state - which means it doesn't physically "exist" at all...

 

And on a more personal note, perhaps you have some issues with being emotionally-distanced from your mother, or something?

Am I interested? Hmm, Well, Let me think about it.. Apparently, you have taken personal offense at my viewpoints at some point and are now taking this opportunity to criticize them by manipulating a very personal spiritual experience (I am freely sharing with everyone) to attack my spirituality as "a rotting corpse." Insinuating that I am perhaps deluded by seeking "dead" traditions that according to you "May or may not have existed" I have become "dogmatic" any other personal insults I missed? Yeah, but who cares... So, let me see, Am I interested...No, I am not interested...

Y'know if you've got something to say.. Say it in a reasoned manner in context. Don't make it personal with passive aggressive insults... I find your tactic here very cowardly, cruel and childish...

(another one goes on to the ignore list) buh-bye...

Mantra (or Tantra) is an excellent means in order to reach cessation (which you should then follow up with contemplation.) Which is why I suggested Everything look at meditationexpert, where he lists some meditations dealing with that. There's no problem in practicing more than one meditation, in fact on his site he suggests picking at least 2 to start with.

 

Everything: On amazon.com, there's two meditation manuals by Shramana Zhiyi of the Tien Tai sect. They are excellent and give detailed practice instructions on cessation-contemplation and anapana.

Good suggestions...

p.s.

What other phrases have you found that anyone (non-qigongers) can relate to?

 

Another I've found is "center and brighten".

 

What phrases do you find that people don't readily relate to? Are there alternative ways of say that that are more relatable?

Qigong is a really good buzz without negative side effects!

(that's why I do it.)

I find that this requires one to already have great focus, concentration and awareness. Otherwise you fail to recognize all the negative thoughts in the first place. Atleast for me. It is not really improving concentration but rather challenging it. We have to recognize thought patterns, analyze them and reframe thoughts and pin point core believes. It really makes your head dizzy when you don't have good awareness or concentration.

You misunderstand me ( or I am communicating ineffectively). I am suggesting an easier method than trying to still your own mind...Everyone is different as I said, but, If we're talking about mantra meditation, then, The point is that, if someone is having a hard time quieting their thoughts, they can't use their mind (which produces those thoughts) to still itself. The point of mantra is to simply chant the sound current and that sound current acts like a computer hacker and goes in and targets the abberent mental patterns in your subconscious and begins to reorganize them. While you are chanting the mantra, the sound releases prana which often times will put you in a trance state which will help you relax and feel some peacefulness and actually helps you to focus. All the while the mantra (actually the deity of the mantra) is doing the work for you to clean the subconscious garbage. As time goes on and with practice, the mantra will clean out your subconscious and after years of practice, you then have the ability to achieve a still mind while meditating.

This misunderstanding illustrates the problem with modern western misunderstanding of meditation that most people seem to have. People think that they have to start meditation from a place of stillness. So, people try and shut off their mind and try and control their thoughts. This is an extreme oversimplification of the process. Stillness was traditionally understood to be the result of years of preliminary meditative techniques. When most people start meditating in a formal way, the first thing that happens is that the subconscious garbage comes to the surface and makes it difficult. This, unfortunately is part of the process. Mantra is an effective tool to help overcome this initial roadblock...

Simple Jack has given you some good resources, try those... Good luck...

Hey, anyone can recommend some good meditation or training for concentration / focus?

 

I'm determined more then ever now to train my concentration / focus again. I somehow lost it along the way and get distracted by even the tiniest of thoughts at the moment. It is extremely annoying.

 

I hope someone can share with me what worked for them?

Mantra meditation is a very effective method for training the mind to focus in constructive ways. It gives the mind something to focus on in a proactive way. Your mind is going to want to focus on something. Instead of trying to avoid focusing on negative thoughts as many people try to do and fail, why not train the mind to focus on constructive thoughts rather than try avoid negative thoughts. This is one benefit of mantra.

I have a very active monkey mind and mantra is very helpful for me at using my mind's natural tendencies. Everyone is different. Find what works for you...

Good point John...

And there are also other methods of retention and transmutation of Jing which do not require sexual stimulation. So, if people want to "save their juice" there are other ways to do it... Not to mention that many respected teachers teach that stimulating the sexual fluids and then retaining them in this counterintuitive fashion is actually more wasteful, because once the fluids have been activated and heated up through sexual stimulation they are useless for internal alchemy and cannot be used in the way that Ninpo is intending. According to these teachers, in order for Jing to be used succesfully in internal alchemy, it needs to be directed up the spine before it is heated up and activated. The sensations of heat or tinglyness going up the spine after sexual stimulation is merely the sensation of highly activated, heated up yang. It will overheat a person, not give enlightenment...

According to my sources and experiences at least...

Ninpo, You've made some pretty broad categorical statements with very profound and far reaching ramifications attached to them including complete enlightenment! Very exciting if true...

So, help me understand your reasoning and justification for your statements ... Because if,in fact, you are correct, then it is very helpful to us all. If, however, there is room for disagreement, then perhaps being so sure of your conclusions may not be so helpful if there is some room for doubt... But, let's first examine your statements...

according to you, some unnamed forum poster said...

you can never reach enlightenment until you get control of your sexual energy

Was this your average relative newbie sharing his profound enlightenment experience based on a few weeks or few months or even a few years of personal experimentation by himself, from the latest "Taoist" meditation book? Or was this an ancient teaching from a recognized Taoist immortal who actually achieved complete enlightenment by this method you share?

What did they mean by "control of your sexual energy"? You say it means to sexually stimulate yourself and not ejaculating. Perhaps that is what they meant. I don't know the whole context of the quote you are referencing. But in any case, that is certainly not the only possible interpretation of the statement "Control your sexual energy" by a long shot.

You go on to say...

It is in fact true. And all those who say it's not, plainly don't know what they are talking about.

Many well respected Taoist masters, qigong healers and teachers have spoken out against these sexual kung fu methods and revealed that according to traditional Chinese Taoist sources they are nothing more than outdated chinese folk methods of birth control and have nothing to do with Taoist internal alchemy. Medical qigong practitioners have shared here on numerous occasions the large number of patients who have severely injured themselves seeking what you claim to be the road to enlightenment. Many others on this forum have shared the horrendous permanent dmamge they have suffered from these methods of enlightenment through sexual experimentation. Mantak Chia and Michael Winn who are arguably the most responsible for teaching these sexual kung fu methods have had to publicly reverse their stance on many of the practices they had formally taught. Michael Winn in particular has publicly admitted that he did not completely understand these methods and has changed his understanding about them and now formally instructs people to not practice these methods as they may have the potential to cause serious physical and energetic harm...

based on your post, I can only conlude that the "Truth" of your Enlightenment is based soley on your experience of...

chi/qi shoot up my back that it's much stronger when i haven't.... er....... enjoyed myself too much... so to speak.

So, apparently, according to you, based on your isolated experience... these well respected teachers and healers who disagree with you (Who can demonstrate their understanding of energy through their practice) and the many people who have been severely injured from these types of sexual kung fu pracitces"Plainly" don't know what they are talking about.

And you base this the undeniable "Truth" of this conclusion you have made on the sole fact that you have "banged away" to your heart's content and not "exploded" and you have experienced sensations of Qi moving up your spine...

And based on what I've read, I am assuming that this experience of physical sensations is enough to prove to you not only the worth of these practices but furthermore that you may be on the way to achieving enlightenment from them as a result?

I myself have practiced those same methods you are convinced leads to enlightenment. Yet, I have come to the firm conclusion that those experiences have nothing whatsoever to do with enlightenment. In fact, I have concluded that from an energetic standpoint that those physical experiences mean absolutely nothing.

I have however learned methods from actual lineages from Taoist and hindu school of alchemy of semen retention that do not include any sexual stimulation whatsoever. I also learned that when I practice them, my sexual energy moves up the spine ( all by itself) and directly into the brain as a result of correct practice in these meditative and energetic practices. And in fact, if after practicing these methods correctly for a while, if I choose to engage in sex again, in order to even get an erection, I have to consciously choose to open the lower gates for the energy to change course and move down. That method is in sharp contrast to your method which actually opens the lower gates through sexual stimulation and sends energy downward which then you have to struggle against in order to keep from ejaculating and then you have to try and force the energy upward when it is trying to "explode" (as you put it) downward and out.

So, I came to the conclusion that those methods that teach you to stimulate the sexual fluids and then try to force them up your spine are highly ineffectual at best, highly dangerous at worst and totally counterintuitive to other more traditional methods that are usually only taught from a live teacher instead of a book.

So, even though I have had the same experiences that you are describing, I have come to the opposite conclusion. Is it still "plain" to you that you are right and all others are "plainly" wrong? Or is it possible that there is more information out there to be learned?

So, V...

I don't know what your past experience in forums is. You have made it clear that you have no formal training in Taoist practices...

Taoism and Taoist practices are BASED ENTIRELY ON putting one's observations into phenomenal experience and proving them through practice. Taoism isn't a philosophy. It is a practical way of life. If you want to come onto a Taoist forum and share your ideas, you will not get very far in communicating or gaining respect of your opinions without that understanding.

If your goal on this forum is to engage in dialogue and be respected, I strongly urge you to re-think your tactics. Your intellectual observations may be self-evident to you. But, the point of sharing an opinion is to be able to effectively communicate that to others. If you want to do that on THIS forum, you will need to communicate with an authority that can only come from experience... Taoists are not going to be impressed by your writings alone...

This is a Taoist forum. Many of the people on this forum have joined it because they practice energetic and meditative techniques that are derived from ancestral traditions (which you might call "patriarchal") the goal of which is manifestation of spiritual concepts in the "real" world. There is quite alot of philosophy in that tradition, BUT part of the litmus test of one's Taoist philosophy comes from the practical application of that philosophy in the real world or what you would call the phenomenal world. Taoism is all about understanding how that phenomenal world reflects the immaterial spiritual world. If you have a personal dislike of the phenomenal, practicing taoists will intuitively pick that up in your posts and have the instinct to constantly challenge you. (regardless of how well thought out or how well reasoned your logic is)

I'm telling you this because based on the last fiasco that happened, and although I went to great lengths to defend you, I am Ironically having the same instinct that others had which is to aggressively attack you. And instead of attacking you regarding semantics as most are doing. I am wishing to bring to your attention how and why people may feel hostile toward you...

You see...When people like Stig or MH talk about their understanding of yin and yang, wu wei etc.. as practicing Taoists, (not just intellectual taoists) they are also capable of effectively demonstrating their understandings in their physical practices whether that be through Tai Chi or their Nei kung practice etc.. and anyone standing in their physical presence would understand their points. The proof of their observations would not be solely in the realm of intelllectual ideas... I don't get the impression that you are able to demonstrate your conclusions in any other way except through cleverly worded intellectual arguments... Therefore I am losing respect for your opinions the more I read them...

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm hoping you will rethink how you interface with people here...

Practical experience transmits authority to one's opinions.

I also recommend that if you want to be respected that you make an effort to own your own observations with disclaimers like, "In my opinon." "in my experience", "Based on my research." etc... When you make categorical statements "This IS that" etc... whether or not your observations are valid, unless you have that weight of authority that practical experience brings, people will intuitively want to fight with you.

I am wanting to fight you just because I am seeing that when you are challenged, instead of responding with deeper explanations that effectively communicate your ideas to people, you start to resort to personal insults, judgements and deamening statements like the following...

It is you making shit up, and attempting reverse fundamental laws of nature from the perspective of your human-centric, sensory based, thinking, that intertwines Yang with Yin, and Yin with Yang, in way that could only be described as schizophrenic. How anyone can spew that dark, cold is contracted, generative, centripetal is beyond any logic,....

 

My dialogue on Tao has nothing to do with traditional interpretations, but things more obvious than night and day. Thus I have no idea what you're spouting, but it isn't Tao.

As I said before, just because your reasoning is self-evident to you, doesn't mean others will instantly agree with you. You need to do more than quote other famous people to defend your ideas or attack people when they disagree with you. It comes off as immature... You need to provide examples of your reasoning that is applicable in the real world or Taoists will not respect you...

Just my limited observations based on my limited experience here ...

i personally think light and qi are two different forms of energy.

 

the way i have been taught, the dan tiens and the 2nd, 4th, and 6th chakras overlap so they occupy the same physical space. in this way they are related closely, and i have been taught that the navel chakra is fire, and is the reservoir of vital energy, or qi. the heart in my system is water, and reservoir of emotional energy. (now i have to ask my teacher if emotional energy is qi or not! thanks guys ) and the pineal chakra is air and is the reservoir of light, so now i have good questions for my kuji-in teacher. his phone is broken so i can't sort it out tonight but i will hopefully tell you what he says when he calls me w his new number. anyway thats none of your business! hahaahah

 

and btw i am just throwing my 2 cents around like its 5 bucks because i work with these systems. i am in no way claiming to be correct. i am not an authority in these matters, i am just a student

Very cool info... Look forward to hearing what your teacher says...

While I'm thnking about it, I want to address siddhis in connection to chakras and kundalini. Siddhis are always a result of kundalini awakening regardless if is spontaneous or from qigong or martial arts etc...

BUT... siddhis are not a sign of spiritual progress in the way most people think. Siddhis are a result of excess karma trapped in the aura that need to be released.

for example, Healing powers... One theory of healing powers is that they arise from past negative karma. One becomes a healer in this life to atone for harm they have caused to others in previous lives. The people that they heal with their powers are people that they have harmed in past lives and they are simply erasing that karmic debt through their healing.

From this perspective, it's kind of hard to take credit for the healing since all you are doing is relieving yourself of your "sins" and making things right with someone you owe a debt to...

So, this is another reason not to seek siddhis unless what you want is to pay back your karmic debts. If someone uses their siddhis in a selfish way, then the karmic backlash is multiplied because instead of using their ability to heal those they have a debt to, they are harming those very people they were supposed to help...

something to think about...

Fiveelementtao,

 

Thanks for the response. I will definitely check out the archives.

 

I would agree with your perspective that "Chakras can only be opened through changes in personality based on life events or upon changes in one's viewpoint of themselves". But, if one perceives "light" in a Chakra, isn't that a form of energy? Do you think it is different (or a different frequency) than Qi/Prana?

 

Everything is made of energy, so of course the light that goes through chakras is energy.

Your question still assumes that Chakras can be manipulated with energy in the same way as Dan tiens or meridian points.

But, there are very powerful ways to do this, but it is not through meditation on the physical points of the Chakras... If one wants to influence a chakra in the hopes of opening it, the best way is to meditate on the spiritual principle that each chakra represents.

For instance, the heart center. This is a popular one. To help facilitate opening the heart center, meditate on the properties of that Chakra which are Love, Generosity, Divinity and Unity of life. That is a far more powerful method of opening the heart chakra then to focus on the physical center and trying to channel energy through it. The chakras will transmit energy when we operate from the spiritual and psychological principles they represent.

In brief, as I understand it, the chakras correspond to these qualities:

Root- physical security

Sacral - sexuality, creativity

navel - individuality, independence, Power

heart - Love, Divinity, Unity

Throat - Spiritual mastery, individual relationship to the Divine

3rd Eye - fusion of opposites, yin/yang, Shiva/shakti

crown - absorbtion, samadhi, enlightenment.

What most people think is influencing the chakra is merely stimulating meridians and nerve plexus, not necessarily the chakras.

The other question is: How do you know which chakra needs to be opened? IME, it is much better to let the Kundalini decide for you. If someone's personal issue is lack of power (most seeking siddhis suffer from this). then the last thing one needs is to open the 3rd eye. They need to open the root chakra. They way to do this is to trust that the Universe will provide for you.

The best way to allow Mother Kundalini to guide you to the chakra that needs opening is to address your current emotional and psychological issues. Gurus used to act as psychologists. Today we have therapists. They serve the same function. This is another ptfall of practicing spiritual discpilines without guidance. Most of us do not know what our issues are because we are not objective. If we are seeking disciplines from our fears, we may go down dead ends.

This is why deity worship is so helpful. If one simply worships a diety that they feel a connection to, it is likely that deity represents qualities they instinctively need in their current state of development... And that deity will stimulate the Kundalini to direct our attention the chakras that need to be opened for each of us...

In short, just live your life and seek to be the most helpful healing person you can be, seek out those teachings and practices that bring you the most comfort and healing and the chakras will open by themselves. They don't need us mucking around and slowing the process down...

my .02

Mike

Thanks for the informative post, and the last comment was made in jest - no sarcasm .

I'm not a KAP student, so like i said everything in my post was just theory made out of interest.

I guess you have awakened your kundalini? Do you mind making a post about your experience - I appreciate if it's too personal.

 

Best,

Ish

It's not that it's too personal. I just don't see the point in sharing about personal, visceral experiences. That is what most people seem to be focusing on when they speak of Kundalini. Someone has a blissful or frightening tingly experience and the first thing they want to do is claim a kundalini awakening. When I hear people claim to have awakened Kundalini, they cite physical manifestations and experiences to prove those claims. So what? I have had alot of kundalini experiences and I have had alot of Qi phenomena experiences. I have had alot of religious experiences. I've had epiphanies etc.. Big deal.

Experiences are just that - experiences. Everyone has them. They don't necessarily mean anything. But this is especially true when it comes to Kundalini "Awakenings" because of all the baggage attached to that term. I get very suspicious of anyone who boldly claims... (ahem) "I have awakened my Kundalini" just those kinds of statements IMO, cancel out any awakening just by the fact that someone feels they can take credit for it. It is like saying, "I have achieved Enlightenement." It is a very crass and crude thing to do. So, I don't think you will ever hear me say anything like that, because I believe that enlightenment if it even exists is simply a process and it's a process that everyone is having and to make comparisons like that is antithetical to any enlightenment. On the flipside, everyone has Kundalini in some state of awakening. Just as everyone has Qi. Without it we would be dead. If you are alive, you are having a kundalini experience and you are having an awakening.

For me, the only real proof of kundalini awakening is the level of someone's emotional and psychological maturity. This is also lost in modern kundalini hype. Kundalini is not just an energy, it is the psycholigical and spiritual core of human beings. Any energy manifestations are only side effects. They are karmic attachments being released. That is all. Everyone has karmic attachments. So, when someone has an energetic experience related to kundalini and takes credit for it like it is some badge of honor is equivalent to taking credit for having just taken a dump. It's just the natural process of releasing crap.

IMO, The only true test of kundalini awakening is emotional and psycholigical maturity. What would I sound like if I said, "I am emotionally and psychologically mature." Pretty silly and egotistical. Since I am painfully aware that I am quite flawed in those areas and have alot of growing to do, I would not say such a thing. So, I hope I won't ever claim to have awakened my Kundalini...

But, more importantly, and I have ranted about this before, kundalini in modern times has become a commodity that a person can own, a thing. She is not, She is a Divine Force. She is a goddess. She is the Mother. For someone to say things like, I have awakened my kundalini implies that the Divine Mother is simply a thing to be possessed and manipulated. Would anyone here speak about their mother like this? Any awakenings that occur are Her choice. We are recipients of Her grace. So, if I did have any awakening, why would I take credit for it by claiming to have awakened her. If there has been any awakening in me, it has been given to me by my Mother. I give Her credit for any of it.

And this is another aspect that is forgotten by many modern seekers of Kundalini. Traditionally, She is to be worshipped. She is not a party favor to throw around. She is not a drug.

I could go on... So, to answer your question. No, I have not awakened anyone. Whatever level of awakening I have or have not received is not anything I can take credit for... I am still a very imperfect human and to say anything that might give any other impression would be inaccurate...

I am curious how many have connected to the chakra of another person, in terms of reading them and healing?

 

It seems most share what they think based on their own experience in their own body but what can we ultimate say about it if we are only basing it on ourselves alone. I am happy to read of personal practices but it seems to me that as long as any practice is only for yourself you only get a limited view. There are many energy systems which treat the chakras of other people.

There are many systems that claim to treat the chakras of other people.

Maybe they do maybe they don't.

Are they treating people's chakras or other energy centers?

Which systems? Where do these systems originate? Are they traditional yogic systems? Are they modern Western hybrid systems?

Anybody can say or claim anything. And they might be doing real healing. People can call any energy center anything they want chakras, dan tiens, meridians etc...

However, I am in full agreement with you that any discussion about this stuff should be focused on the phenomenal results not on personal subjective experience.

Be aware I am not questioning whether these systems are healing chakras or not. I am trying to bring awareness to our assumptions about the words we use and more importantly, the emotional agendas that we attach to them which affect our ability to objectively examine our beliefs...

thank you that was very informative.

 

people who work with chakras as somehow based in qi can damage their energy system. chakras are consciousness, or light. there should not be heat or tingles, or any other energy in the chakras. in my experience, Maybe in the lower dan tien, but this should be circulated, cooled, or dispersed when one is done meditating on it, or svadisthana consciousness, which can trigger LDT charge. my teacher says if it starts to charge, youre done meditating on it. but thats just him. anyway thanks for pointing out that chakras are very different than qi.

 

i will read some of the threads on dan tien you recommend. thank you again

Thanks for sharing your understanding.

Effilang,

please forgive me if I have offended you with my brashness, it was not intentional...

First, before I respond, I need to address an erroneous unconscious assumption about kundalini that is clouding the issue and making people want to defend their spirituality. And people are not hearing the focus of the discussion...

The assumption that I hear is...

that Kundalini is the superior energy that leads to enlightenment. therfore every good spirital practice MUST therefore be kundalini based.

That is an assumption that I am challenging. I believe that assumption has diluted the discussion because peoples feelings are getting hurt. Everyone here wants enlightenment, and since Kundalini has been unconsciously accepted as the BEST way to achieve enlightenment, everyone understandably gets personally offended if they feel someone is telling them that their way is inferior because it is not kundalini based. I am not doing that just as I would not say that Tai Chi is superior to Ba Gua. Part of what I am saying is that since people unconsciously want enlightenment they have a tendency to impose kundalini onto every energy system because they have an assumption that it is the only energy that leads to enlightenment...

So, let's be clear about the assumption I am operating from.

I do NOT think that Kundalini is the ONLY or BEST way to enlightenment. Nor do I think that any practice that does not focus on kundalini is in any way inferior. So, if I imply that Taoist practice may or may not stimulate kundalini, it does NOT mean that I am saying that anyone's practice is inferior... It makes it difficult to have a reasoned objective discussion if I have to wade through peoples' hurt feelings because they think I am calling their path inferior. I am not. So, please let's try and take that off the table and focus on the points of the discussion.

That is your opinion : )

Yes. It is my opinion based on what you are saying. First, let's analyze again why you are wanting to argue with me? Are you feeling that I am minimizing your spiituality by what I am sharing? If so, please take that off of the table. We are talking about different spiritual practices and techniques from different cultures...It is OK to impose. And if you are OK with that so am I. But you are still imposing your Taoist experience onto a yogic experience by your own admission. I am not criticizing that. I am only wishing to keep the discussion about different practices objective. OK?

See. This is feel is where your fault is. You seem to accept that a Yogic experience or a significant chakra or kundalini related alchemical experience is only credible and/or experience-able by someone of a direct Yogic practice.

First, I am not saying anything in regards whose energy experiences are more credible. I think you are reading that judgement into my statements based on the whole kundalini assumption I quoted earlier. BUt you are right that I AM saying that someone with limited experience in a traditional yogic path is much less able to speak with authority about that practice. Would you listen to an indian yogi who has never practiced Tai Chi or worse only practice Tai Ji from a book? No, of course not. In that instance, it would be competely understandable if you heard this yogi making inaccurate assumptions about Tai Ji to point out that there is a difference between his assumptions without having been taught by a Tai Ji master. It would be no reflection on his knowledge of yoga, would it? So, I am not making any value judgements about anyone's experience or path......

People who are born into a system of thought become one with the system. It is simply natural. For others less fortunate, who search for a system to practice in their developed age, have a much harder time because they have to find something that can seamlessly overlap their already molded system of reception.

I have no disagreement with this statement but it is not relevant to the discussion which again is... Are chakras, dan tiens kundalini, the same thing? I say no.

The only way to understand something which is complicated is by diluting it into simpler more digestible bite size pieces for easier digestion. There is nothing wrong with making things understandable. In fact i thought that was the point O_o

Ok. again no problem with that.

I think you are creating a great amount of constriction in your ability to understand freely by adding so much significance to "roles", "specialities" and separation in classes.

Ok. let's analyze that. This assumes that differences are bad and those differences somehow minimize peoples' ability to experience spirituality. So all IMA's are the same? Is Tai Chi Bagua? Sure there are similarities but if someone wants to make progress in either, they will need to learn the differences at some point.

What i explained before WAS from my personal experience.

You're taking offense where none was intended. My apologies if you felt that minimized your experience... My aim was to refocus the discussion on the specifics...

You can reach both goals laid out within both systems by doing what either systems depicts as the rudimentary steps to achieving them.

No argument here on this point either. But that is not the issue at hand.

This isn't about who is best or right or wrong or better or worse. I have never said any such thing in regards to this issue. This is what I was talking about earlier when I pointed out that people have difficulty talking about Kundalini because there is this unconscious association with kundalini and enlightenment. Since everyone here on this forum wants enlightenement, naturally everybody want to assume that their practice gives enlightenment and therefore their practice must awaken kundalini....

We cannot have a logical, reasoned discussion on this topic if peoples' agendas are to prove that they are enlightened...

I just wanted to say that, but i feel like i will have to step back from this debate, since i have experienced above this reasoning, but cannot show proof for which i am very sad, as i would very much like to share it with you.

You are welcome in this discussion as far as I am concerned my apologies for any hurt feelings or misunderstandings...

Mike

This is precisely the teaching that I have been receiving very recently.

 

each energy center (less culturally charged term) is connected to a certain state of consciousness. And also that it is possible to learn how to choose between states of consciousness at will and move skillfully between them for a variety of purposes.

 

In my view Chakras and Tantiens/meridians/acu points exist on different planes, or different vibrational densities.

 

Do you hold a similar view? ie Tantien/Meridians/acu-points are qi related and therefore closer to the physical body vibration and Chakras represent less dense energy of consciousness?

 

I also resonate with what Effilang said about the systems being constructs which are merely accretions upon the true root of reality. These are indeed tools to work with the pure energy of the universe, which may also be termed the pure energy of consciousness.

 

Is it possible to go directly to the root? Maybe, but more easy for most to use certain tools of perception to move towards the ultimate root of reality.

 

Lately I have been working with the concept of exploring without trying to make things happen. IOW how do you have an energetic experience without trying to make something happen? The majority of qigong and neigung as far as I know are interested in working with energies. There is some Intention to make things happen. Open a meridian. Cook alchemical ingredients in the cauldron. Transmit qi, transmute jing to qi to shen. These are mainly doing practices. Is there a way to work directly with Qi. Is there a way to perceive the flow of energy and learn how to flow with what energy you resonate with? Are forms necessary? Where do forms come from ?

 

Maybe will start another thread soon to expand on the above.

 

Mike, can you comment more about the relationship between the chakras and different states of consciousness?

 

Thanks for hanging in there.

 

Craig

Hi Craig,

Yes, my experience is similar to yours. IME, it is possible to stimulate a chakra while working on a dan tien for example. And there is no doubt that prana, qi, jing etc... can stimulate Kundalini to awaken. There is no doubts about this in Yogic understanding.

IME, Chakras and DTs do overlap, so there will be cross stimulation defintely. and yes, my experience is similar to yours that the DTs are physically located gross energy collection points and Chakras are more like vortexes projected into the aura from within the spine. The chakras project our life experience to us. The more we work with the psyche in meditation, the more the projections change. So, certainly working with dan tiens will effect our experience of the Universe and if we then meditate on the changes in our perceptions, the chakras will be stimulated which can stimulate Kundalini to rise which in turn will effect the chakras in the spine which will effect a change in the projection of the chakras into our auras and on and on...

I have many of the same questions as you, my friend. I know for me that just doing nei kung without forms would be like pushing a porsche. Yeah, the thing moves but not very fast. Add a physica form and then I have some gas in my nei kung car

I think some people have the thing backwards because of only reading advanced nei kung from books but do not have a good external form to get the energy moving and open the meridians first. For me, without my spirit fighting forms and my qigong forms, my nei kung would be maybe 10% as effective.

I know that very advanced masters do not need forms any longer. But they spent lifetimes opening meridians through IMA and Qigong forms. I have not reached that stage. I still need my external forms to fill the gas tank in my nei kung car....

For me, right now, I need all three. I need my physical qigong and internal MA forms, I need my nei kung practices and the final thing which has taken the whole practice through the roof is then to add the religious/shamanic (however you want to call it) aspect to the whole mix. Mantra and ritual are the rocket fuel to that mix. If someone really wants to learn about kundalini, IME, worship a deity with ritual and mantra. That IME, is the fastest way to effectively awaken Kundalini...

thanks for your thoughts, Craig...

The body is one complex unit. There is no way in hell that MCO and Kundalini are unrelated.

The question isn't whether they are unrelated. Certainly they are... The question is... Are they the the same thing? I do not argue your experiences or the quality of them. But you are imposing your taoist understanding onto yogic words. If you have experience from a purely yogic perspective and can make a comparison based on contextual training in each discipline, I would be interested in hearing your comparison... Because I am also interested in the interrelation.... I am not saying it doesn't exist, but I a saying if we are serious about making comparisons between different sciences that we take it seriously and objectivley study them in their own contexts and make objective comparisons with a scientific attitude. Otherwise we are just imposing our own agendas on them and IMO diluting each science in an attempt to make ourselves feel better by making everything understandable...

A brain surgeon and a pediatrician have similar training but each has their own specialty. The pediatrician wouldn't dare to do brain surgery.... We should have the same respect for Taoism and Yoga...

As I understand it, Kundalini awakening can happen spontaneously through other energy work not necessarily Indian yoga. IIRC Glenn Morris awakened his kundalini through meditation and MCO practice?

 

Therefore there must be some Taoist literature about kundalini, as it would be ridiculous for generations of Taoist masters who deeply practiced energy work and meditation to not have some who aroused their kundalini.

 

Surely there must be some texts or masters that can describe kundalini in terms of jing/chi/shen etc.

 

My guess (probably completely wrong) is that Kundalini is highly refined chi that when released goes up the Chong Mai (don't know about ida & pingala - is there a parallel in Taoism?)

 

Do you have any information regarding this? considering your extensive experience with both fields of practice I assume you must have figured it all out .

Hopefully the sarcasm is in jest...I will assume you are asking because you honestly want my opinion. please understand, I am not attacking the quality or effectiveness of KAP practices, I do however disagree with many of their conclusions about the nature of the energy they stimulate...

Why MUST there be Taoist literature about kundalini? Does that mean there MUST be yogic literature about fa jing in martial arts? It is a huge universe and there are many ways to interface with it. I do not agree with that assumption.

I also disagree with you that Kundalini is refined Qi. That is not what yogis teach. Yogis are very familair with Qi. They call it prana. If yogis wanted to call kudalini highly refined prana, they would say so. They don't. They do however say that Prana can stimulate Kundalini. The assumption that Kundalini is Prana. This is an oversimplification that is understandable if someone is trying to make the connection between the two solely from a purely toaist perspective...

So, you have opened a bigger subject which is...

what defines a true kundalini awakening? Is it solely a personal energy experience? Not according to traditional understandings.

I don't want to open a fight about Glen Morris... I have great respect for his teachings. He and his students have clearly created a very powerful and effective energy practice. But, as I understand it, he had an energy experience from practicing Taoist energy work. He then made the assumption that it was a kundalini experience and began calling his teachings kundalini teachings. It may have been, it may not have been. I don't know. But, I do not necessarily agree with his definition of Kundalini... KAP puts alot of emphasis of their definition of kundalini based on physical energy experiences. They also put alot of emphasis on their energy or Kundalini experiences being connected to enlightenment. So, that puts a huge cloud on any reasonable objective discussions about the actual nature of the energy they are stimulating... As you point out, Morris had an energy experience from practicing MCO and he made the assumption that it was kundalini.... If he had then taken that experience to a yogi to determine if it was kundalini or pranic in nature, I would be interested in that discussion. I am not making any judgements about the quality or nature of his experience. But, from an objective standpoint, I don't know if it was kundalini or not. I am also not making any comparisons about the superiority of Kundalini over Qi phenomena. Many people get very reactive when I point out that they are making blanket assumptions about yogic disciplines from a Taoist perspective because they assume I am making a judgejement on the quality of their experience. In other words, many people want their experience to be kundalini because of the hype that word carries with it and they believe that if their experience was not a kundalini experience, then they assume I am saying that their experience is somehow inferior. I am not... I don't put value judgements on ANY energy experience.

I am not arguing against spontaneous kundalini "awakenings". I am sure they happen. But, this term has an assumption that I do not entirely agree with which is... When someone has an intense energy experience that has a powerful effect on their life, it must be kundalini.. right? Not necessarily. This is a modern Western understanding of Kundalini... Kundalini can awaken with ZERO physical effects. The problem is that Qi phenomena and what many people consider to be kundalini awakening can be the same. So, there is no way to know if someone is having a powerful Qi phenomena experience, or a neurological experience and calling it kundalini.

There is also the emotional baggage attached to the word Kundalini. Because in recent times Westerners have aggressively sought after "enlightenment" etc... Kundalini has become a catch phrase for enlightenement. So, when someone has an energy experience, they want it to be connected to enlightenment, so they immediately attach it to a Kundalini experience.

There is also a huge difference between stimulating kundalini and awkening Her. Awakening means that She has pierced the Knots in the chakras (which means that a person's perception has permanently been altered.) Stimulating kundalini and having an energy experience or feeling the friction in meridians as a result of merely stimulating Her is often interpreted as a kundalini awakening. So, the problem is that people want so badly to have the BEST energy enlightenment experience, so it is very difficult to objectively examine whether or not an experience is truly a permanent awakening or just a temporary stimulation. And foget trying to explore this difference with those who are determined to identify their experience as an awakening or a stimulation.

IMO, the best book out there to really explain Kundalini is the Aghora series by Robert Svoboda.... He talks alot about common misconceptions concerning the nature of Kundalini.

Now, assuming you are a KAP student and you feel I have somehow attacked the quality and nature of your experience, you are wrong. KAP is clearly a superior practice and I highly reccommend to anyone interested...

Anyway, this is just my opinion. I know other have different opinons. I'm not interested in an argument.. But, since you asked, there is my .02

Fiveelementtao,

 

If you are willing to share, I would be very interested in hearing the differences that you have found. As an example, have you found any difference between Qi and Prana? Also, do you think chakras & dan tiens are absolute, or mental frameworks that we impose upon our bodies?

 

Thanks, Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

If you search the archives you will find some pretty lengthy posts I have made regarding the differences between the yogic focus and the Taoist focus.

In brief: Here is what I have found....There are different types of Qi, there are different types of prana, but Qi and prana are essentially the same thing. To fully understand the different Qis and pranas is a longer subject that I am not expert in. But they are essentially the same thing.,

Kundalini and Qi - not the same thing. Kundalini can be stimualted by Prana- definitely. But it has a very specific purpose.

Dan tiens are collection points for Qi. They are also places of transmuting Qi.

Chakras are not collection points, they cannot be meditated upon like Dan tiens. When people try to meditate on chakra points, all they are doing is sending prana to meridians or dan tiens. It may have a powerful effect, but it has vey little effect on the chakra.

Chakras can only be opened through changes in personality based on life events or upon changes in one's viewpoint of themselves in connection to the rest of the phenomenal world. This shift in understanding is what awakens kundalini. If there is no change in maturitly level in connection with the person's relationship with other people, themselves and the world, then it is by defintion not kundalini...

Chakras are gateways to consciousness enhancement, not energy enhancement...

Informer.. Dude, I am not interested in a typical TTBs mudslinging contest. I have no personal grudge against you and I have no interest in fighting. If you want to stay on topic and can bring some reasoned points to your discussion, I am happy to have a discussion with you.

But here is what you said:

I think these things are the same

I asked what you based that on.

You said because you wanted to bring people together.

These are different subjects and not relevant to the discussion which is whether or not chakras and kundalini is the same as dan tiens and MCO.

I would, once again like to bring up Critical Thinking

When is something True or False, when is something Sometimes True and sometimes false, when is something partially true and partially false. And most importantly... What are a person's emotional agendas in arguing a point and when does that emotional agenda cloud their ability to stay on topic and argue their point intelligently and in context...

Anyway, not interested in pointless bickering so, I'm putting you on "ignore" mode.

Best of luck to you....