fiveelementtao

10,000 years of language barriers and divisions, which now become obsolete this day and age. We have access to every teaching of hundreds of thousands of people, why settle for one?

 

that is not the issue. If your only reason for merging Taoism and Yoga is to make yourself feel closer to other people, I submit that you are not clear on your goals. What is your goal here, informer? What is your agenda in wanting to make these disciplines the same? To feel closer to other people? I have no agenda. If I found that they were similar, I would say so. I found different. And I appreciate that they are different.

 

Your point was that chakras, dan tiens, Qi and Kundalini are essentially the same. If you believe they are and you have some basis to express that thought, then bring more than just wikipedia and your stray thoughts to the discussion.

 

I never said you had to settle for just one. I suggest that in order to fully appreciate a discipline that one should ( in the first few years) focus on one discipline. If you try and squish them together in the beginning, you will only dilute them both and not learn anything of either.

 

I said that I have studied (STUDIED) both for 20 years. So, I didn't settle for one. If you want to study both traditions, then STUDY them. Then bring your findings based on what you have learned from experience from qualified sources and discuss them. That takes time and effort. It's not going to come by making superficial conclusions based on a few books you read. If you are just wanting to make superficial connections without any real basis or understanding because it conveniently fits into your parameters, then what are you accomplishing? Other than feeling a little better... Are you able to practically USE that understanding in a practical way? no.

 

Years ago, I really wanted to understand the connection between chakras and dan tiens, Qi and kundalini and I was not satisfied making superficial conclusions. I went out and learned about each science in their traditional contexts which has given me some understanding and experience of their differences and similarities. Others may have different understandings and if they can bring some real evidence based on study, teachers and experience to the table, I will listen...

 

There are points of commonalities. There are significant differences. The reason why kundalini and qi, chakras and dan tiens are different is because they accomplish DIFFERENT purposes. If they accomplished the same purposes, (i.e. like pranayam and taoist breath work) then you have an interesting similarity to discuss. I am not trying to dissuade you from making connections and bringing people together. But there is a difference between these particular subjects. and knowing those differences is important if you want to make any real headway in your spiritual practice...

I think it is the same stuff.

What do you base this on? wikipedia and your "thoughts"? If wikipedia is your source material for making conclusions concerning spiritual sciences that have taken thousands of years to perfect, then, well...

Look, I'm all for finding common ground. But to impose similarities to satisfy our desire to simplify things, is IMO just laziness. These are sciences, disciplines that masters have spent thousands of years perfecting... I have been studying both of these traditions for 20 years. It's easy to stay in one discipline and then make suppositions on the other without any real knowledge. It's another thing to experience them both in their traditional contexts.

 

I suppose we can make whatever cavalier suppositions we want. Based on what I see from here, the moon is made of cheese... I have never been there so I don't really know, but it makes sense... So, I guess kundalini is just jing, works on paper, therefore it must be true...

 

I think it is the same stuff. The Kundalini is just moving jing up the spine. My .02

 

 

"Students may indeed be encouraged to practice Taoist Yoga exercises or T'ai Chi Ch'uan as a way of building enough energy to begin performing the Microcosmic orbit exercise as it can induce a strain on the nervous system and cause energy depletion if practiced without adequate preparation.[5]"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcosmic_orbit

Completely wrong... Root Chakra is not the navel.... Chakras are not connected to physical organs in the same way, the MCO is. you can't simply make these simple cross connections between chakras and dan tiens. Chakras are psychological nexus points, not physical ones.

Chakras and dan tiens serve a completeley different function. Don't mix them up...

MCO deals with the movement of Qi. Chakras deal with the movement of Kundalini. MCO moves Qi energy around the periphery of the body. Kundalini is energy that moves up the spine.

 

Kundalini and Qi are interrelated but they are not the same energy at all and are not interchangeable like you are trying to make them.

MCO is Taoist. Chakras are Yogic. In order to even begin making these kinds of comparisons between different cultural spiritual sciences, you have to have a basic understanding of each science in it's own context. That takes years of intense study under a qualified teacher. You can't learn it from reading a few books. (most of the stuff in books is also totally incorrect!) If you want to learn about chakras, study Yogic sciences. If you want to learn about meridian and dan tiens and how they relate to MCO, study taoist sciences. This is what happens when people try to learn from only books.

If you have respect for Taoism or Yoga and you want to make real progress... pick ONE path and find a teacher...

I think it's great that people are excited about this stuff. So, if it has value to you, treat it with respect as a something that deserves real study and effort. If this stuff could be figured out by reading a couple books in a few weeks, then our ancestors would not have spent lifetimes devoting their lives to learn it.

my .02

 

 

 

Hi guys,

 

I've been reading about chakra, Microcosmic orbit and endocrine glands and these seem to fit perfectly except for the lower chakras.

 

Indeed, in most books the root chakra (close to perineum) is linked to the adrenal glands while in the MCO, it's more the door of life (Lumbar 2 - 3) which is linked to that. Somehow this makes more sense as it's physically closer to that point just like the other points.

 

Also it seems that the lower dan tien in the chakra system is located at the place of the sexual center while it's located on the navel in the MCO.

 

So I'm wondering what you think about it ?

 

 

Resume :

 

Chakra - MCO - Glands

 

Root Chakra ------ --- Navel-------------Adrenal glands

Sacral Chakra -------- Sexual center ------ Gonads

Solar Plexus Chakra --- Solar plexus --- ----Pancreas

Heart Chakra --------- Heart -------------Thymus

Throat Chakra - -------Throat ------------ Thyroid

3rd eye Chakra ------- Between eyebrow --- Pituitary

Crown Chakra -------- Crown ------------ Pineal

ALL WISDOM is BS, because all wisdom must arise from the O.E. knowledge, and all knowledge arises from the grey-goo by way of phenomena, and all phenomena is an illusion.

 

Very interesting

 

V

 

I agree with you that modern English speaking westerners have lost their ancestral, shamanic connection to these words because our ancestors allowed themselves to become hijacked by the over-intellectualized greeks and roman philosophers who paved the way for the imperial christian way of thinking which dominates our modern Western mind. But, I disagree with you that the Old English words themselves are BS. If we study their proto-germanic roots, we will find a very powerful shamanic path through our ancestral tongue...

my .02

Below is a post I put on my forum. I will post it here too if any are interested.

 

http://www.dvds.thunderwizard.com

http://www.wyrdshaman.tk

So, as you may already know, I lost my book "Mounting Sleipnir" when my hard drive crashed recently. I am starting over with the book which was also going to be the apprentice manual.

 

Many people have asked me to make all my video teachings from the Thunderwizard.com available on DVD.

 

SO..., I have made 5 "Teutonic Shamanism" DVDs available. Most of the video on the DVDs is already freely available on the ThunderWizard website and the youtube channel. So, if money is tight, don't worry, everything you need is on the website.

 

But DVDs #3 and #4 have NEW videos and meditations that are not found publicly. I feel these new videos to be very special and so, I felt that it should be reserved for students who are serious about this path, so I have only made them available on DVD. These are the Tyr/Holle meditation and the ING Rune meditation. The Tyr/Holle meditation is the most important practice I do. The ING Rune mudra meditation is also very important as one progresses in energy.

 

The Tyr/Holle energy meditation combines the HUUL breath with other techniques to summon the power of Tyr in the North Star, Woden in the 3rd Eye and Thunor in the Navel.

Coming in a close second in importance is the ING Rune meditation which can be very helpful after someone has gained some power from the exercises. This exercise will help the nervous system absorb the energy more efficiently while balancing the meridians.

 

My practice can vary from day to day. Some days I do more exercises and ritual than on others but, the Tyr/Holle Meditation is the ONE practice that I make sure to do every day no matter how busy I am. It is that important to me and I recommend it daily for anyone who feels a calling to this path.

 

Thanks for your interest,

Mike

 

Anyway, while I am rewriting the book, I thought, I would make these DVDs available to you guys...

 

Go Here for more info on DVDs

 

Thanks bums, for your interest,

Mike

What I suspect is that the right brain is in full flow but the left brain is on pause.

 

insightful, intelligent post dawei... My observation as well... (in terms of the communication at least) But I think you may have your brain hemispheres mixed up. Right brain is intuitive, expansive and emotional. Left brain is literal, intellectual and dualistic. Left brain controls the right side of the body and right brain controls the left side of the body. So, instinctual understanding of the body is reversed when we are talking about the brain hemispheres. My experience of forum interaction is that it is VERY left brain oriented. ( Which is why we see so much arguing and fighting on almost every thread.) It is also interesting to me that my osteopath volunteered to me that the body position necessary for typing on a keyboard stimulates the sympathetic nervous system. (which is the stress response or "Fight or Flight") Which is left brain dominant. NO surprise to me then that modern western folk are overly stressed... and even on a spiritual forum like this one, since one must sit behind a desk and type that everybody's natural tendency seems to be to pick fights...

Hello everybody,

 

I'm 28 and I'm wondering how often is it OK to ejaculate if I want to reach a good level in Tao.

 

For now, I've been working this out for 3 months and I've been going pass the point of no return 3 times (I did my best ! ;-)) (My Microcosmic orbit is not yet open properly)

 

What are your recommandations ?

 

Thank you in advance for your advice :-)

 

HI Lux,

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "pass the point of no return". Are you sexually stimulating yourself and then trying to use that sexual energy for MCO?

Anyway, it sounds like you are trying to do some advanced stuff from things learned in books. I am going to repost something I posted in the Retention thread in the general discussion

 

Be aware that what I am going to share is my opinion based on my experience. I was celibate for 6 1/2 years. So, if I donwplay retention it is not from a place of no experience. I understand why many people want to practice retention.

 

First let me echo that moderation is OK and you haven't failed or lost anything by just being human. It is still possible to practice retention by limiting your sexual stimulation. If your natural inclination is to release say, four times a week, try reducing it to two. You will still gain benefits from the practice even of you are releasing twice a week.

 

If you are limiting ejaculation for energetic reasons, that's great but IME, whatever benefits you receive are not always necessarily energetic ones. Often times, (and this was true for me) retention had greater emotional effects than physical ones. And just 'cause you feel some physical effect that you interpret as a benefit, it may not mean you are actually achieving anything on a long term energetic level. If you find a good energy practice and a good teacher you may not even need retention at all. I can't stress this enough.

 

IME, retention is far, far overrated.

IME, a good energy system is far preferable than any kind of retention. IME, if someone or any system say that you need to retain to make gains in their practice, then I would say, find a better practice. They are out there.

 

I am not saying that any retention is bad. But do not try to practice retention while stimulating yourself. If you want to avoid release, then abstain from any sexual stimulation. The techniques that teach one how to stimulate themselves sexually and then suggest that you then suppress the urge to release and then pretend to teach you how to move that stimulated semen up the spine or what have you is PURE NONSENSE. Once you stimulate the sexual fluids, They need to be released. if you do not release them, you will only heat up your system and cause damage to yourself. The unreleased, activated heated up semen stays in your body and rots. The physical sensations that people have of increased energy etc... Is only the temporary side effect of having heated up your system with excess yang energy. It will literally burn you out from within.

 

If you are practicing any techniques that are designed to block orgasms like the "million dollar" point. These kinds of exercises can cause severe and permanent damage.

 

So, I don't know what you mean by retention. But, IME, unless you have a physical, qualified teacher who can teach you how to achieve internal alchemy (which is what you mean by transmutation) then I would simply suggest that you reduce your sexual activity and then release when your urges become distracting. There is nothing wrong with choosing to be single and focusing on self-improvement. If sexual drives are strong, IME, you are much better off finding a loving partner and learning how to have meditative and healing sex.

 

Books are great for alot of things, But not when it comes to sexual kung fu,. The vast majority of what you find in books about sexual kung fu was actually primitive forms of birth control that have absolutely nothing to do with internal alchemy.

 

Find a good system and be a normal human. That is all that is required and you can make huge progress..

 

my.02

 

LUX, IME, the stuff in books teaching you to restrict ejaculation in conjunction with MCO meditation techniques are very overrated. Most of the sensations of Qi people get solely from exercises in books have little to no long term benefit. IMO, If you really want to open the MCO, find yourself a qualified Qigong, Tai Chi or Ba Gua teacher. Those disciplines if taught correctly will naturally open the MCO. IME, I suggest don't waste time ONLY with books. Find a teacher.

Good luck

The topic says it all. Besides the obvious like distractions and tensions stuff like that.

Doing it. The rest is just details.

Max learnt his stuff from some masters in the mountains. Pardon me if I am wrong.

no problem, we all make mistakes.

Nevertheless, there are plenty of other high-level taoist masters living in the chinese mountains.

But the fact that there are masters in the mountains does not by that fact mean that all masters ONLY live on mountains or outside of society.

 

So, We have already established that you are incorrect about at least one thing, at least one master has never lived in the mountains or outside of society. If there is one, there may be others. And if there is one, then your categorical statement that all masters must have lived away from society is false. If one of your categorical statements has been proven false, then there is evidence that other of your categorical statements may also be false. IN such a case how can you be sure of any of your opinions?

 

BY your own admission you were wrong about Max's master. It is no shame to admit mistakes. But, you seemed very sure of your opinion or you wouldn't have expressed it in such a categorical way here. So, then it stands to reason that you may be mistaken about some of you other opinons.

 

When are things True or False? When are things both True and False? When are things sometimes true and sometimes false? What would happen do you think if you meditated on that concept in a cave for 40 days? Do you think your views would change?

 

Wow, what a cool idea, maybe I will try this myself. (Without the cave though)

You did not respond to my question. You showed a video of a guy... doing something I don't know what. It may very well be states of consciousness but it does not support your statement that Taoism is about rejecting senses. nor does those states of consciousness prove that he acheived them by rejecting the world. And even if he did, it does not prove that his is the ONLY way to achieve those states. I accept that you believe this to be true, so I am not trying to talk you out of that belief. But if you are going to make these categorical statements, you have to back them up in context and logically. That gentleman in that video was not a Taoist, so that does also not support your argument...

 

This goes back to critical thinking. When is something true or false, partly true and partly false or sometimes true and sometimes false...

 

Tulku my friend, without any insult I am starting to question your ability to reason clearly.

 

This is the true meaning of the Tao, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Gnosis, etc etc.

 

 

Taoism is certainly not about enjoying life, be a functioning/participating part of society or practicing your tao in moderation.

 

That isn't Taoism. That is Sociology.

Hello Tulku...

Thank you for sharing your understanding with us.

You speak with great conviction and it seems clear from your enthusiasm that you wish to help other seekers through your advice. This is a great and wonderful calling. We need more qualified teachers on this forum. You also seem to want to be helpful by exposing any false or unqualified teachers. This is a noble calling and I respect and admire this trait and the bravery it takes to confront false teachers.

 

May I please respectfully ask you...

How old are you?

How long have you been practicing?

Have you learned your techniques from any prolonged in-person training with any teachers? If so, what lineage/tradition was it?

I have read in another thread where you share that you personally know some high level Taoist/Buddhist masters. Did you actually study with them?

Have you learned solely from books? If so, which book(s) have you developed your style from?

 

Sometimes a rare individual comes along who is self-taught or taught directly through spiritual transmission from spiritual masters or deities. It would be very exciting if you were one of these people. If you are one of these, please share how many years you tested your techniques in practical application and how you came to verify the benefits of your style and any abilities you mastered from that process.

 

My apologies for so many questions. I do not believe in asking something of someone if you are not willing to do the same. I do not wish to seem like I am putting you on the spot. So, if you wish, I will also answer these same questions I have posed to you. If not, that is fine too...

Thank you for your time...

 

The biggest obstacle to semen retention is not the lack of teachers. The biggest obstacle if that people who try semen retention fail to understand and overcome the metal/emotional addictions in their psyche.

 

For eg, if you have been having regular ejaculations for the last few years, it would be very hard for you to cut off your cravings for sex. Semen retention would be even harder.

 

One must totally cut off sex and even thoughts of sex for at least 3 months before one practice sexual retention. Also, one must partake in yin practices to balance out the rising yang energy created by semen retention.

 

Yin practices like vissapana meditation and even eating completely yin foods and cutting out yang foods. To dissipate the excess yang energy, one should even exercise if need be. There are even yin qigong practices for a male to engage in if he is feeling too yang.

 

It is all about balancing out the energies in your body. Diet, exercise, thoughts, all these factors contribute to the balance of energies in your body. As i said before, the most basic method of cultivating semen retention is to eat yin foods or not eat at all. Yang or cooked foods must be completely eliminated.

 

There is more than enough information out there for one to make the appropriate strategy for semen retention if one looks hard enough. Teachers are only needed for empowerment and such.

Look who's talking. In your own words, " the tao is about enjoying life, be a functioning/participating part of society and practicing your tao in moderation".

 

MODS! I would like to report this blatant piece of DISINFO! LOL!

 

Yes? and how is that disinfo exactly? I have been very consistent about that?

Tulku, I am happy to have a discussion with you (if that is what you want). But, I don't understand your point. How am I giving disinfo here?

Even Max's masters live in the mountains.

Not accurate. I don't know about all of Max's teachers but I am familiar with two of them. They do not live in mountains. In fact, the one that he claims taught him his highest techniques was born, raised and has lived in a large city in the USA his entire life. Is married and has children.

Because they (Max's Teachers) believe that it is only possible to be enlightened by isolating themselves from the pollution of society?

They don't believe that. In fact, I know that they believe and teach the exact opposite. They teach that in order to achieve the Tao, one should enjoy life, be a functioning, participating part of society and practice your Tao in moderation.

 

You should show a lot more respect to people who have attained a higher level than you have.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Very profound.

 

Me, I am walking the highest path and no one is gonna stop me.

I don't see anyone trying to stop you from doing anything. I myself would love to hear about any experiences you might have if you chose to live in the mountains with some masters. If you ever do a dark retreat, I would love to hear about it. I encourage you to do these things and come back and share them with us...

I am reminded of the definition of Critical Thinking I reposted from wikipedia which says,

 

(Critical thinking) is a way of deciding whether a claim is true, false, or sometimes true and sometimes false, or partly true and partly false.

 

If I apply critical thinking to your statements here Tulku, I find them lacking. There is truth to your statements. What I find characteristically un-Taoist and un-Buddhists about your thought process and communication is that it lacks an understanding that things can be both true and untrue or true in certain circumstances.

Shepherd,

Be aware that what I am going to share is my opinion based on my experience. I was celibate for 6 1/2 years. So, if I donwplay retention it is not from a place of no experience. I understand why many people want to practice retention.

 

First let me echo that moderation is OK and you haven't failed or lost anything by just being human. It is still possible to practice retention by limiting your sexual stimulation. If your natural inclination is to release say, four times a week, try reducing it to two. You will still gain benefits from the practice even of you are releasing twice a week.

 

If you are limiting ejaculation for energetic reasons, that's great but IME, whatever benefits you receive are not always necessarily energetic ones. Often times, (and this was true for me) retention had greater emotional effects than physical ones. And just 'cause you feel some physical effect that you interpret as a benefit, it may not mean you are actually achieving anything on a long term energetic level. If you find a good energy practice and a good teacher you may not even need retention at all. I can't stress this enough.

 

IME, retention is far, far overrated.

IME, a good energy system is far preferable than any kind of retention. IME, if someone or any system say that you need to retain to make gains in their practice, then I would say, find a better practice. They are out there.

 

I am not saying that any retention is bad. But do not try to practice retention while stimulating yourself. If you want to avoid release, then abstain from any sexual stimulation. The techniques that teach one how to stimulate themselves sexually and then suggest that you then suppress the urge to release and then pretend to teach you how to move that stimulated semen up the spine or what have you is PURE NONSENSE. Once you stimulate the sexual fluids, They need to be released. if you do not release them, you will only heat up your system and cause damage to yourself. The unreleased, activated heated up semen stays in your body and rots. The physical sensations that people have of increased energy etc... Is only the temporary side effect of having heated up your system with excess yang energy. It will literally burn you out from within.

 

If you are practicing any techniques that are designed to block orgasms like the "million dollar" point. These kinds of exercises can cause severe and permanent damage.

 

So, I don't know what you mean by retention. But, IME, unless you have a physical, qualified teacher who can teach you how to achieve internal alchemy (which is what you mean by transmutation) then I would simply suggest that you reduce your sexual activity and then release when your urges become distracting. There is nothing wrong with choosing to be single and focusing on self-improvement. If sexual drives are strong, IME, you are much better off finding a loving partner and learning how to have meditative and healing sex.

 

Books are great for alot of things, But not when it comes to sexual kung fu,. The vast majority of what you find in books about sexual kung fu was actually primitive forms of birth control that have absolutely nothing to do with internal alchemy.

 

Find a good system and be a normal human. That is all that is required and you can make huge progress..

 

my.02

 

26 Male, Dallas TX

 

I have, within the last 9 months discovered benefits with semen retention. As with many aspects of my life there seems to be more than a physical explanation as to how I have gotten where I am. My seeking on how to retain has brought me to this web site many times, there are no other men around me that even appreciate retention or especially the transmutation (which I am seeking so VIGOROUSLY) that I practice. Through reading online, in book stores I have read parts of books on Taoism and retention techniques. The retention techniques work, I have tried them. But, what I am seeking is to know how to transmute that energy instead of release it or suppress it. I want to harness the energy not get rid of it. It seems as though my self control and discipline is only getting me so far. Like I am suppressing it until it fights back and I loose.

 

Truth is that I failed tonight, again. I cant even put my words together right. I am getting tired of failing and I really really would appreciate wisdom, knowledge, help. Thank you for your time and the knowledge you have already shared.

 

 

Shepherd

Thanks for your bravery in sharing your experience. Meditation is always a good idea. And while your experience with meditation helping your symptoms is indeed encouraging, I also have doubts that it will permanently cure your condition.

I also strongly urge you seek out professional help while you have some clarity. It is not advisable for you to be treating this by yourself. If, as you say, your thinking and perception are impaired, it only makes sense that you may not be qualified to use that same impaired thinking and perception to cure the problem. Make sense? A broken tool cannot fix itself. For that matter, a working tool cannot fix itself. You need objective help.

Have you ever attempted to achieve lucidity in your dreams?

 

Recently I am working with a Tibetan Lama and this topic is very important in his tradition.

 

I wonder how this interaction could have unfolded if you were fully awake in your dream. It is something I hope to be able to explore some day. Thanks again for sharing this dream vision.

 

Craig

Thanks, Mal, Clarity, and Infinity for the positive feedback.

Hi Craig,

Yes, I have experimented with lucid dreaming over the years and have had sporadic success with it. Where it has evolved to now is that towards the end of my 8 hours of sleep, I go through a couple hours of waking up and going back to sleep before waking up for the day and in that period, I will often times re-enter dreams and interact more consciously with them. I have found that in this period, if I wake up after a vivid dream that I can re-enter it and ask questions of those in the dream and get some surprising answers. This has been very helpful when I want to know the meaning behind dream symbols or for divination.

 

About a year ago, I had a dream during this period of my sleep cycle where I met Odin and I asked him about something that I had been wondering about concerning the similarity between his hanging on the World Tree in order to receive the mysteries (Runes) of the Universe and Jesus' hanging on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. Odin's response shocked the hell out of me, he said...

 

"Jesus was a coward. He sacrificed himself for someone else out of fear to appease his father and to satisfy the fears of a bunch of snot-noses who don't appreciate him.. and he whined about it the whole time. What a waste! I am a warrior and I eagerly sacrificed myself to MYSELF and deemed it a privilege. I was not fettered with any obligation other than to discover the Runes for myself and then I freely shared what I learned with all with no attachment of obligation. It would not have mattered to me if anyone listened to me. I died to liberate myself. No man can liberate another. Look at Jesus. After he sacrifices himself, he then wastes that sacrifice by making people feel sorry for him and then forces them to believe in him, not in themselves, but in him and then he relieves them of their responsibility to die to themselves creating a race of frightened, spoiled children. Had he made a real sacrifice of himself and owned it like a warrior and then taught his followers to do the same, can you imagine where the world would be today? What a waste!"

 

He was actually much harsher on Jesus than that and these are some of my words to describe the gist of his message. But he did call Jesus a coward and I still cringe at that assessment of him... I experienced his value system as very harsh and I am still struggling to see it without fear and judgement. And yet he was also fiercely generous. It is a combination that I have not experienced in anyone before or since. I was in awe of his power and yet while I felt very little and inadequate he was well.. Fiercely welcoming and accepting of me completely and with no pity... Very hard to explain. He was pure in a way I have not seen anywhere else... I doubt that his differing value system would be considered 'spiritual" today. There was definitely a strong value placed on fearlessness and warrior ethic. He was very forceful with that message to me that for him, spirituality was the path of warriors and it was expected that one should be eager to die to themselves. What I discovered about myself here was that while I had been intellectually familiar with the idea of the spiritual warrior, it was muted in comparison with Odin's warrior ethic. He had ZERO guilt or hesitation about his "warrior-ness" whereas I really struggle with mine. I could see that 2,000 years ago in Europe, things may have been alot clearer and different in terms of what spirituality meant...

You would think that since it may very well have come out of my unconscious that I would be relieved by that. I wasn't. I personally see Jesus' sacrifice as extremely brave and selfless and I woudln't dare to say or think such a thing about him. But I guess Odin can get away with it I like to see Odin and Jesus as emanations of the same cosmic consciousness, so to see the Universe as having ideological schisms within it's own consciousness is rather disturbing to me. But I suppose as a self-labeled shaman, I guess it makes sense if I also view the Universe (like the human being) as an aggregate of different energies that sometimes are in seeming conflict wherein one needs to seek a dynamic balance rather than a static 'peace'. I guess it also makes sense if the each of those sacrifices were for different purposes: One for the balancing of negative karma and the other for the destruction of ego to obtain knowledge. Anyway, my point being, that to answer your question, yes, I have found that lucid dreaming can be a very powerful way to intentionally interact with the subconscious to kickstart some serious personal growth. If my experiences are any indication, then my suggestion to those wanting to experience lucid dreaming, be prepared for some intense and sometimes unnerving revelations.

Anyway, just rambling again.. Good to see you Craig,..

Mike

Wow.. Seth, bro... I see that you are having alot of feelings here... So, I will try to not take your aggression personally. So, please take a breath and try and read this without any defensiveness. I am not attacking you. I am merely sharing what I see in front of me... But this post of yours is only underscoring my point and further convincing me that my conclusions based on my observations may be accurate. Please, take a look at your communication here with me... Extremely agressive, very defensive and lots of accusations insults and "you" statements in there... such as...

 

Then you are blind my friend.

(insult. I could take offense at that but I won't)

You my friend have been anti Buddhist for a long time. It comes out in your posts.

(Not true. Unsubstantiated accusation. I may have said some things about my experience of buddhists, but that is my experience of a few isolated individuals not a statement against the religion.)

So you are pretending Vmarco is a saint

(another absolute statement that is not true. I never say that. In fact I say that I saw him to express himself arrogantly and with absolutism. That is not a saint)

 

Can you see how your behavior in this post to me is exactly what you accuse Vmarco of doing to you? I saw it then and I'm seeing it from you right now...

 

The First BS point used is that we are all In on this together

I never said that. I don't know who all the buddhists are... What I have said is that it appears to me that some buddhists have been acting in unison to defend a common agenda. and that it appears to me that some have been so emotionally reactive that they have not been thinking clearly. You are giving me this experience right now. You have not been representing my words or feelings accurately at all. In fact, I wonder if while you are reading this right now that you are feeling that as I write this that I am angry with you and trying to fight with you. I am not. I get it that you feel attacked by me. and I have warm feelings for you and wish you healing.

 

But I tell you with all honesty is that my observation is that in this post you are very emotionally reactive and seeking to defend your agenda at any cost and that I am feeling very personally attacked by you because of it. That IS my observation and you can be offended if you like, but I cannot deny that is what I am seeing right now. And I'm not going to change my observations just because it might offend you.

 

The Second BS point is that our alleged group of 'Buddhist bullies' ganged up on vmarco because he didn't share our views. BULLSHIT!

I believed you until I actually looked at some of the threads in greater detail. And what I said is that what I observed was that it looked that way to me. I am very sorry if my observation causes you personal offense. It was not and is not meant as such. I don't really know why you are personally feeling attacked since I did not mention anyone by name. I never mentioned you in regards to that. So, I don't know why you are feeling the need to defend yourself here. But I saw what I saw... So, should I lie just to gain your approval Seth? or should I not speak out about something just because it might make you angry? Should I be afraid that sharing my observations as I see them might cause you to attack me personally and insult me by calling me blind or give you another opportunity to mock my spirituality?...

 

I just want to point out another observation. This post here sounds exactly like the sarcastic post from Simplicity rules where I believe he was mocking you. I am not mocking you now, but I am going to quote the first lines from each of your posts to show you how similar they are

 

Five, You have completely lost your mind.

(SR)

Then you are blind my friend.

(SA)

 

And while SR was being very sarcastic, you are being totally serious... Sorry, but I see what I see...

 

Put your self in the hot seat. Imagine him saying:

"I am the only one who understands anything about TAO or energy cultivation. You are a Retard. Your Chikung/Neikung is bullshit, you are a bullshit teacher, You are deluded, and your students are retarded. What the F@%K is viking chikung, you made that lame ass shit up, you half witted tard!" That is what he did to the Buddhist people here.

I get it that you feel this way. But. Nope. I have not seen that he did anything this extreme or hurtful. You just did though...

 

If he or anyone said that to me, I would be deeply hurt and offended. But, he didn't say anything like that as far as I could tell. I get it that you feel that he spoke that way and I am happy to agree with you if anyone can produce any evidence that he actually said anything like that. But, I haven't seen any hard evidence and no one has shown me anything like it. I have only heard that people felt like he was talking that way. There is a difference. Listen, I have no agenda with this guy and this is my point. I have no agenda with his views one way or another. I would have no problem whatsoever kicking him out if I saw that he actually attacked people on a personal level. I didn't see it...sorry...

 

But I would like to point out that while you have said these extremely hurtful things about me in the 3rd person, under the guise of trying to prove your point it is difficult for me to think that you didn't at the very least want to say that to me to hurt me because you feel that I have attacked you. And again, I must say that you are proving my point. While this is not sufficient to warrant a complaint to mods. ( well actually it is but I won't in the interest of healing) I will put you on ignore also because I do find your behavior very aggressive, irrational and am deeply hurt by your tactic. Was that your intention? and based on your communication here, I have no evidence that you are able to have a reasonable disagreement when you are emotionally stimulated. So, for me, you are not a safe person to talk to and I need to ignore you for my own emotional well-being...

 

Once again I will ask the question: How is it that some people who proudly wear the banner of a religion that preaches non-attachment, compassion, forgiveness and love be so aggressive, defensive and hostile? As I said, I know little about buddhism but as I understand it, it is when your enemy is being the most aggressive that you are encouraged to show the most compassion. What you and others have said is that because Vmarco was so hurtful to you that you had every right to abandon your religious principles. I do find that ironic and in that instance I do see that as being hypocritical....

 

Peace to you Seth.

Thing is, even if you agree with what he said, and I'm not totally against it in every way, that doesn't change the nature of what he said, which was contentiously bashing religions and which is bound to result in nothing but a continual shit show like we're having now.

 

I saw no such thing in the quote given to me. You may have gotten that feeling from it. (from what I was shown) I did not. This again is a great example of what I have already said that it seems to me people were getting a vibe they didn't like and then projecting onto his words in order to justify that vibe.

 

And you apparently missed the rest of the sentence calling BS -- stating the reason it was BS.

Nope I got it. I just don't agree with your assessment of it.

Then he goes on to quote the most right wing fascist type of so called Christians to prove his point, as if they represented the whole religion, and that every Christian holds the beliefs of these wackos.

"As if" is YOUR interpretation of what he said. But, where does he actually say that? Quoting people to prove a point is not abusive. If those people he quoted said horrible things and they were representing themselves as Christians, then he has some verifiable evidence for his claims whatever they are. Now, if he personally accused YOU of being an evil christian, then you would have a right to accuse him of attacking you. BUt the question is if he was quoting people who you are accusing of being "wackos" (insult), then why are you taking it so personally. If you are not one of those wackos, why are you not able to separate yourself from them and have some compassion for the fact that many people have been hurt by those "wackos" and it has influenced their thinking against Christianity. If you are not one of those people perhaps a more tolerant viewpoint would help people like him to heal from whatever harm as been done to him in the name of Christianity.

 

So, If what you are trying to do is PROVE to me that vMarco was abusive, then you need to bring me more evidence than just how you felt. I won't accept your personal feelings as fact.

 

Anyway, once again, I'm debating with someone who only debates the points he has anything to stand against, while acting like he holds the entire truth.

 

Here's another good example. You say you don't like it when people make assumptive statements about you. Yet, you are making an absolutist judgemental statement about me and my thinking based only on your feeling of me. Not on my actions. This is bordering on being an insult. (Well it is an insult, but I'll live.) "if you said, " I feel like I'm talking to someone that thinks he holds the entire truth." that would be OK because that is your feeling and I couldn't argue that. But as you just stated it, as a fact, I won't lie, I was initially hurt by that and started to get mad. I am hoping that was not your intention...

 

Listen, I get it that this guy said some things that you felt were a threat to your spirituality. I get it that you probably feel very strongly about your chosen spiritual path and you don't like it when the things poeple do make you feel disempowered. I empathize with you. But I believe people have the right to their own opinons and experiences. IMO, as long as someone, however annoyingly is able to intelligently express their opinions and own them, they have a right to do so. Just because you or I don't like it, is not enough to ambush them...

 

So, I disagree with you on this. But, I have lost interest in arguing with you guys any further about it. And it is clear that you are becoming frustrated with me and I am finding your statements to start to be hurtful and abusive to me..... So, I am going to put you on the ignore function. Nothing personal. We have both spoken our peace and it's time for me to move on. I wish you luck my friend

Why don't we start with his first comment in the Chritianity, Buddhism, Taoism thread:

 

"I would say most people who study the Abrahamic religions, that is, discern the holy books of theo-belief systems critically, rather than deliberating on them solely for display and devotion (Devotional reading is not Bible study), would agree with Gore Vidal, who said "I regard monotheism as the greatest disaster ever to befall the human race. I see no good in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam."

I find nothing wrong whatsoever with that statement. I personally agree with it wholeheartedly, but even if I didn't.. He clearly states that it is only his opinion when states, "I would say (certain people)... would agree with Gore Vidal... (when he says)" Which means he is sharing a statement of Gore Vidal concerning monotheism that he agrees with. That is not an attack upon religion or monotheism. He is saying that in his opinion, people who do not study religion critically and only act out of unreasoned emotion can be very destructive. If I state that I also think that monotheism has done considerable damage to society, am I attacking monotheists? No, I am a student of Jesus. He is making the argument for objective reasoning in regards to religion. I cannot agree more. You are starting to convince me that Vmarco may be a very smart guy...

 

Pure BS

in YOUR opinion. But now you are being absolutist. Had you stated, "This is pure BS in my opinion." No one can argue with that because you are free to have any opinion you want. But you cannot prove that his statement is categorically BS. I'm sorry, my friend but the only thing you are doing (for me personally, I can't speak for anyone else) is confirming for me that your personal agenda has been threatened and is influencing your ability to think objectively. Is that an attack? That's my experience of you...

 

I am glad you keep wanting to defend yourself because it gives an opportunity to some research into critical thinking in regards to stating opinions experiences and how that differs from insults and attacks...

 

I have to say that I find your reasoning lacking in critical thinking. Now, does that offend you? I have not insulted you by saying "You are not a critical thinker." I am sure that in most instances you are. However, in this instance my experience of you is that your statements are not reflecting an attitude of critical thinking. You are free to disagree with that. You are free to be offended by my experience of you. But you cannot accuse me of attacking or insulting you...

 

people who just want to revel in causing a ruckus.

It's all a matter of perspective. I am more than happy to let this go as I have said my peace. But, until my interest in this discussion wanes and you want to keep trying to force me to see things your way, I will point out any fallacious reasoning you care to volunteer. You have suggested I am maliciously causing a ruckus. I see it differently. I am engaging in a reasoned discussion about my perception of some behaviors that I believe are a possible threat to this forum. You are free to see it differently. And you are free to say so. But just because I disagree with you does not by it's nature mean that I am here to cause trouble.

 

Why don't we start with his first comment in the Chritianity, Buddhism, Taoism thread:

 

"I would say most people who study the Abrahamic religions, that is, discern the holy books of theo-belief systems critically, rather than deliberating on them solely for display and devotion (Devotional reading is not Bible study), would agree with Gore Vidal, who said "I regard monotheism as the greatest disaster ever to befall the human race. I see no good in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam."

 

Then he goes on to quote the most right wing fascist type of so called Christians to prove his point, as if they represented the whole religion, and that every Christian holds the beliefs of these wackos.

 

Pure BS, half truths put across as if they were the whole picture and all of it meant to trash another religion.

 

This is how you seem to be arguing as well. It's easy to mislead when you're the only one presenting the facts, which is why it's so frustrating to have people around that love to do this, because then others are forced to choose between watching a bunch of people get fed some BS messages, or to waste their time like I'm doing now to bring in the rest of the story. This is not what people came here for, and you might have noticed that most of the actual Taoists and cultivators have disappeared due to all this nonsense becoming the modus operandi of the conversations. Blatant attacks like the one's Vmarco loves to make are what makes this place shit, and everybody needs to see that if they don't already, anti-religionists, sexists, as well as Buddhists, Christians, or anyone who thinks their supposed superior views allow them to piss on something and act like they're sharing.

 

Personally, I had already put Vmarco on ignore before he got suspended, so I was prepared to let it roll, but now people are trying to get other people banned for petty nothings, so I'm trying to do my part since I have enjoyed this site for some time now and would like it attract real cultivators who likely won't have time for interacting with people who just want to revel in causing a ruckus.

I believe the following dream is a result of practice of the HUUL breath mantra outlined in these links...

 

"Let The Victim Keep His Distance From The Rotting Corpse..."

 

This was something said to me in a dream by a female shaman. She was in a trashyard. She was sitting on a grass prayer matt surrounded by filth, feces, rusting cars, etc... She was caucasian, of a somewhat large build, not fat per se, but well fed and strong looking. She had the feel of a mother or other female caregiver. Someone with whom one would feel comfortable lying in her lap. She felt calm and serene and safe. She had slightly greying auburn hair but had an air of youthfulness and strength. Her eyes were warm and smiling.

 

I recognized that she was a shaman and a master, but she projected no air of superiority. As I said, Mother or Auntie is the most accurate description of her. She was family and very approachable.

 

I began to walk towards her. My intent was to sit in front of her as a student. As I took my first steps toward her, she calmly said to me, "Let the victim keep his distance from the rotting corpse." I knew she was referring to herself as the corpse.

 

As in any dreamtime, I instantly had an understanding of what she meant, but as is often true with dreams, once I awoke, I had to analyze it and explain it again to my rational waking mind before it slipped in the abyss of forgetfulness that most dreams fall into.

 

Here is what I believe she meant by that statement:

The manifested physical world is an illusion that She (the mother) has created as a matrix for the Soul to experience limitation and grow. She has purposefully created this illusion to ensnare and entrap the senses. But, since it is Illusion, it also creates death and decay. If we are ensnared by the illusion we will also die. In order to become ensnared by the senses one must adopt the mindset of victim. i.e, a victim of circumstance. That is the first effect of becoming ensnared. So, what she is saying is: If you want to become enmeshed in the Illusion of the physically manifested Universe, you can, but keep your distance and don't get too attached otherwise if you look too closely at the underlying nature of Creation, you will see a rotting corpse and it may frighten you.

If however, you are willing to let go of the physical, manifested Universe, then when you see creation for what it is, (a rotting corpse), then you will not be frightened but liberated.

 

I got the impression that there was no "preferred" method. Choosing to become ensnared or choosing to become liberated were simply two different paths to the same ultimate objective. The only caution was to be aware of which choice you made if what you want is to be happy. Each path had it's own benefits and pitfalls.

 

Back to the dream: I was impelled to keep walking toward her. I sat in front of her on the mat. Things get a little fuzzy after this but what I do remember is that She began to tear a hole in her prayer mat and then she began digging in the earth beneath her and then she dove into the earth and disappeared. The next thing I remember was that I was following her as she was "escaping" the trash heap. I felt the desire to help her escape. My last memories of that dream is following her as we were about to reach the top of the heap and make it to freedom.

 

What I take this part to mean is that the HUUL breath mantra She gave me earlier is a mantra that allows one to escape the bondage of the Earth by going through the earth. The old saying, "The fastest way out is through." is what comes to mind for me. The HUUL mantra activates the lower chakras and connects one powerfully with Mother Earth. Since she is the Master of manifested creation (Earth), She is also supremely qualified to help one escape it's clutches.

 

By practicing the HUUL breath and meditating on being in this manifested universe without being entrapped by it is one way to find happiness in life. By adopting the mentality of one who is not a victim but an active creator of one's life, we can experience the physical world and enjoy it to the fullest without being ensnared and victimized by it.

 

I have not mastered this, I only relay it as it was given to me.

 

HUUL

I belong to the camp of agnostic Buddhists that hold Stephen Batchelor's Buddhism Without Beliefs in very high esteem. Along with millions of others, I subscribe to the idea that the Buddha's teachings make no demands on the reasoning powers of spiritual seekers.

I agree based on my very limited understanding. I guess my understanding isn't necessarily limited, I just don't subscribe to some of the more intellectual strains of buddhism. (OK if others do...)

 

I actually like alot of buddhism. Much of Tibetan buddhism, (to my untrained eye) resembles the Tantric Hindu roots it sprang from. I really like tantric hindu shamanism, so I have no axe to grind against the religion itself... Where I get lost is all the emphasis on achieving enlightenment and dependent origination and all that other stuff that just loses me in the first few seconds. I really can't judge it, because I honestly don't understand it and quite frankly don't want to.

 

My first and only knowledge of buddhism comes from the Fire sermon. I get that. In there Buddha specifically states that he has no interest in teaching the nature of the soul or life after death etc.. He says that the only thing that he teaches is that Attachment Causes Suffering and nothing else. So, I do find it confusing that some organized buddhists sects teach so much stuff on the nature of the self, enlightenment and the after-life. That seems to go in direct opposition to the fire sermon.

 

To each his own I suppose...

 

IF I were to call myself a buddhist, I would probably have to call it "Fire Sermon Buddhism" or something. Because based on what I read there, I can be a buddhist while practicing any other religion I choose since, that sermon said nothing about anything except that attachment causes pain and if you want to be happy, seek to reduce and eliminate attachment. As I see it, just about every religion has that same goal. From that sermon, Buddha seemed to be more psychotherapist than religious leader...

constant extreme religious intolerance.

 

Where are we going to be if we constantly highlight only negative things about a religion? It just turns into a provocative hate fest, and it's also against the rules.

 

Let's talk about Disinformation. Because there is alot of it going on here right now.

 

I have not seen ANY religion bashing by anyone. I have seen some healthy albeit harsh criticism by self-proclaimed buddhists of the application of certain doctrines within that religion. I have seen buddhists strongly identify themselves personally with their religion and who seem to be extremely attached to their own interpretations of that religion who can't seem to tell where their personal identities end and their particular brand of that religion begins who speak as though anyone who criticizes their understanding or application of that belief is somehow attacking an entire religion and marginalizing peoples religious rights.

 

I have recently heard about "gangs" of buddhists running around this forum. I never saw that before because I had no interest in buddhism. Yes, I encountered the rare hyper intellectual buddhist from time to time who wanted to drag me into intellectual nonsense debates, but I merely would say, "no thank you" or put them on ignore and go my merry way. I saw what appeared to be taoists complaining about buddhist absolutism and self-superiority, but I just took that in stride as the actions of a few religionists. But now I am seeing what appears to be a buddhist gang in action. I am seeing what appears to be fellow buddhists acting in a concerted manner to "show someone the door" for, and I am quoting here..."never having any endearing moments" and for "having a condescending attitude." Which seems to apply to alot of people including some buddhists. I am seeing what appear to be buddhists rallying around each other to protect and justify aggressive hostile behavior because it suits their particular agenda. I am seeing what appears to be buddhists who believe that simply by the nature of their religion, they deserve to be treated differently and have the right to break rules that they wish to apply very harshly to others.

 

I am seeing with my eyes once again why I do not identify with any organized religion. Thank you for that...

 

I would like to believe that if I were a Buddhist and even if someone whom emotionally I related to was caught in a moment of semi-justified defensive anger calling another forum member (and apparently a fellow buddhist) an "asslicker" I hope that I would have the objectivity as a buddhist to call foul on it.

 

I find it so incredibly ironic that the religions that preach the most about love, tolerance, forgiveness, equality and patience have members within that religion who seem to have more difficulty applying those values that they preach than those who do not.

 

I would just like to publicly say that I do not believe that any religion has the right to be treated preferentially on this forum or anywhere else. And as long as rules are being applied and enforced to forum behavior I would like to propose that along with prohibiting insults and attacks against religions, I submit that we also prohibit the preferential treatment of any religion over another and make it permissible to have the right for anyone to dissent and criticize any religion if they choose without it being classified as "hate". There is a difference between religious dissent, criticism and religious persecution...

 

Just to be clear, I am not in any way attacking any religion, I am however criticizing the behavior of some people who happen to be religious. I hope that distinction is not lost on anyone...

 

This has been very entertaining and informative. I couldn't have written the script better myself if I had tried...

 

BTW, thanks to Mods for making an appearance...

Cowtao is perfectly capable of defending himself without that. I know because I too can type and know how long it takes to type a sentence after thinking it. If this were an inperson situation, that would be different. Because mouths can fly very fast... But typing on a keyboard takes conscious, deliberate decisions. He had time to filter his thought appropriately...

 

I too am a martial artist and I have taken a vow to never consciously harm anyone under any circumstances unless I am in mortal danger. CT was never in mortal danger and did not need to say those things.

 

I support his right to defend himself in any way necessary. And yes, this is a perfect example of what we are talking about in this thread and I find it... Amazing! that in this context, in THIS thread someone feels the need to act out the VERY thing that we are all discussing and seeking to resolve on this board.

 

The mods are going to whatever they're going to do. I will not hit the complain button but I will be watching to see what they do... and will make whatever judgement of them I make. This whole thing started because a bunch of people wanted to hold some newbie to standards (That I think are good) but clearly are not willing to follow themselves... In the beginning of all this I did not buy most of the impressions some people had about cliques and favoritism, but as more is being revealed, and I simply watch what is objectively happening in front of my eyes... My views are changing rapidly... I will be interested to see what happens...

 

 

5E, don't you see that you are trying to get the mods to act CowTao, basically defending himself, just to show that they act on somebody because they didn't act on on your harasser?

 

CT's not harassing. He's using strong language, and he's calling bullshit like I'm doing on you right now, only his actions were directly provoked. We're all adults here, martial artists mostly.. You want people to get banned for refusing to deny the elephant in the room and saying what they see?

 

I agree with CT. SR seems like he's really hoping to score points with someone..

 

Just because you don't see it... This is a Taoist forum man.. reality is right there in front of you....

 

Some are just not smart enough to see it..

 

 

I think most are smart enough to see it here.. and shit's not going to be run by one or two shit-disturbers trying to use the rules to control rather than protect freedom. This is a Taoism forum. Why are you trying to force punishment where it isn't needed?