fiveelementtao

IMO, That was not direct. I am being direct with you right now, but I am in no way seeking to hurt you or personally insult you. My criticisms have purpose and context. Your remarks whether you feel them to be justified or not that I quoted were merely punitive and insulting. I find your reasoning very convenient and malleable to your emotions and situation and not at all reflecting what little I know of buddhism. If you truly are prepared to receive a suspension and it was worth it to you for whatever pleasure you got out of it by calling someone an asslicker, then I guess I can at least respect your commitment to follow through...

 

Within that same spirit of truthfullness you are leaning on, as a forum member, I must tell you that I find your behavior in this particular instance personally offensive to me and I find your actions here hypocritical in the extreme. As a forum member of your standing, I expect you to be able to express your feelings in more constructive ways. If not for the benefit of the person you are directing your comments to, then for the sake of the rest of us who have to read what you write. I know you understand my reasoning and would probably agree with me in any other instance that you yourself did not have an emotional investment in...

 

That's it for me. I have enough drama for now.

Blessings all...

 

Hi Michael,

 

There is nothing hypocritical in being direct. Have i wrongly attacked or aggrieved him for no reason? Thats up to the individual to form whatever opinion they wish to. I said what i felt needed to be said. I am more than prepared to be handed a suspension.

 

Naturally, its to be expected that more judgements will take root from this, but lets see how really noble and virtuous people really are.

 

I gave my reasons for agreeing to Vmarco's suspension. He was not respectful of others wanting to engage him in ways comprehensible not only to himself. Hence, if one is not able to make headway in achieving some sort of mutual, sensible dialog going, what does this imply? Moreover, I did not report him secretively. Every thought i wanted to express i said it openly and with as much sensitivity as i could muster. Its not my style to be confrontational, and never felt it was needed until this point - but the odd time one has to speak one's mind just to clear up the air a bit.

We're not in the pit, we're in the general discussion area. Yes, SR was being very acerbic and sarcastic but there was substance and context to it. I laughed because there have been some buddhists who have come onto my threads and been sickeningly superior and condescending. AND I can see how CT was offended if directed at him I can't say that I myself wouldn't have been offended by it if I were on the receiving end of it. But, Jeez! Asslicker?

 

Since when is calling someone an "asslicker" speaking your truth?

 

I was just making an innocent observation earlier about buddhists hyper sensitivity, but now I am thinking perhaps some buddhists feel a special privilege when their religious views are threatened.

 

Anyone else seeing the irony and possible hypocrisy here?

 

Forgive me CowTao but I find it outright hypocritical of you to work so hard to defend the banning of someone you claim was personally insulting and attacking people when you now feel you have the right to call someone an asslicker. for ANY reason... I fail to see the constructiveness of that. You've called me on my BS before and I respected and appreciated you for it. I'm calling you on yours here...

 

C'mon mods, where are you? Do I have to hit the complain button before someone steps in here? If this isn't a blatant violation I don't know what is...

 

 

Hey man, like they said, it can get rowdy, especially in the pit.. This isn't consistent disruptive behaviour. Besides, look at the accusations SR was making.. he's fighting fire with fire.

 

Either both get a vacation or neither.

 

You have to be able to say your truth even if people disagree with it. If you do that for 2 weeks of pissing off every person you talk to, there's a problem in the community, otherwise, it's just a little fisticuffs and the police don't need to do nothin about it

i think you are a nothing but a dipstick for attempting to stir shit here. You demonstrate lowly behavior and i have no respect for you.

I think you are nothing but a shit-stirrer and ass-licker. You have evil intent. I dislike your kind, for i think you have no backbone.

 

Woah nilly! WTF? What happened to this being about not personally insulting people?

 

I personally like you CowTao, but this is not OK at all....

 

Can any mods care to explain why this is OK?

 

I will now be very interested to see how the mods react to this....

Five,

 

You have completely lost your mind.

 

a. You don't get Buddhism and say that's not "your" thing. But, why is it not your thing? What better option do you have? Are you satisfied with a wonderful but useless and inferior brahmavihara status attained through your shamanism or whatever path which is sort of good, but lacks clarity and completeness like Buddhism? If you do, then thank me for I am telling you the limitations of whatever you're doing and take to Buddhism.

b. You blame Buddhists of being insulting (at times I take?), but most of the time it is your own fault, if you are non-intellectual and do not want to debate Buddhist concepts in every thread (why shouldn't every thread be hijacked by Buddhism when it is the path with best clarity and advocated by intellectuals here?), it is your won fault. Stop blaming the compassionate Buddhists for your stupidity.

c. And when Buddhists here seem to insult you, ridicule you, they are not actually doing it, they are just being metaphorical, and are doing it out of compassion to correct dangerous attitudes within you - such as Eternalism or some other clinging. They know what is best for you and will not permit bogus philosophical beliefs to be held by anyone here. On the other hand, Vmarco is insulting even when he is not for the exact opposite reason.

 

Now decide, are you a Buddhist intellectual or a non-intellectual who is a vmarco follower? The third category of respected token Non-buddhist is already heald by poor Marblehead

 

Good day Five

 

ROFLOL! Thank you Simplicity for your immense compassion. You used some big words there... is brahmavihara bad? I like worshiping Brahma alot! Is that bad too?

 

I don't know... Can I have my own category? or is that too unmanageable?

 

In all honesty, for the first five seconds of reading your response to me..., I got really offended and began mentally preparing my long-winded defense... until I took action on my new rule to try (don't hold me to it) and re-read the post before replying...

 

Yes! I publicly and unreservedly admit that I am a complete and total idiot when it comes to Buddhism. I do not get it at all and do not understand it. It is way, way, way over my head. Other than the "attachment is pain" thing (which I guess most other religions also have in some way or other) And I am totally OK with that fact and the fact that other people do get it and choose to follow it and get great benefit from it.

 

Since you bring it up, religion is the reason I am now a self-proclaimed shaman and animist. And as such, at least in my non-binding interpretation, there is no such thing as a "right or wrong" religious belief, There is only the framework of belief that anyone chooses to operate within. And as a Shaman any framework of belief is only required to work for you. Therefore, everyone can have their own different framework. and what's more... you can call it by whatever you want and still be "right" if it works for you. As an animist, all I need to do is seek a state of dynamic balance with my environment and I don't have to worry about achieving enlightenment, immortality or nirvana. That's way too much pressure for me and I honestly have never seen anyone come even close to it... Which is why I don't believe it exists except as a goal to make people feel safer in an unsafe, immense Universe.... BUT! that's what I tell myself to justify my chosen framework of belief... You all are free to believe however you wish....

 

I must admit that I do enjoy watching religionists get all bent out of shape when someone is accused of having "No idea what true ________ism is." Or when someone's religious beliefs are labeled as "rubbish." In my world, you can completely reject all tenets of accepted buddhism and call yourself a buddhist if you choose. I don't think he would mind and in fact, I suspect that he would approve...

 

I suppose my sacred cow is probably Qigong technique. I do get pretty high and mighty when people talk about qigong technique in ways I find "incorrect." Although... Qigong is a physical exercise as opposed to an intellectual belief so... Hmm, Perhaps I need to look in the mirror on that one...

 

OK, carry on....

So, I had taken other peoples' word for it concerning Vmarco and previously assumed that he probably deserved his banning for something I didn't see. But, as this discussion has progressed and others have chimed in, I decided to look at this thread again more closely and one other thread cited as an example of his offense...

 

Please bear in mind that I have no feelings about him or his views one way or another other than I don't understand or resonate with anything of his that I read. It sounds like most other intellectualized (my judgement) religious blah dee blah I read here... Nothing against it, it's just not my thing.

 

I remember that the first time I read one of his posts, I got a strong vibe of arrogance and that turned me off. When I saw it was about Buddhism, I just ignored it because it's not my deal. But this time around, instead of reacting to whatever vibe I experienced, I made sure to actually read the content without any projection. And it was no different than anything else in that vein. So, are people reacting to the vibe instead of the content? Seeing as how I don;t understand any of the content, I have to admit that I was only reacting to a vibe. And I realized that a vibe is not enough to condemn someone. Anywho, other than being very opinionated and expressing his opinions with absolutism (I'm certainly guilty of that)... I can't for the life of me find where he was any more insulting than anyone else! He sounds exactly like a handful of others on this forum. In fact, if I am to be honest in my limited observations, it was (at least in the threads I looked at) other people who didn't like his posts that were clearly insulting and attacking him...

 

Maybe there is still more that I missed. Maybe he said some really nasty personal stuff. but I gotta be honest here... I didn't see it... The only possible personal attack I saw would have been the line about conservatism being an illness, but, seriously... In many other threads that could easily be laughed away... From what I've seen, the only other person to come close in terms of generating this level of dislike was Starjumper. And he was much worse than this guy by far.

 

Now, I am not a buddhist. It's not my thing. I don't get it. and whenever the "deep" buddhists threads get started, I leave 'cause it's way over my head. There are some buddhists on this forum I respect and like, but I gotta say some of you were the ones I saw being very personal and insulting and it makes me wonder if it wasn't because your religion and your interpretations of that religion were threatened. As I have re-read the two threads where Vmarco has pissed people off, what I see is mainly Buddhists getting really, really miffed at a guy who is expressing opinions about buddhism that apparently doesn't fit into their interpretations and when he defended himself with more absolutism, you guys got really mad... (That's just what I saw)

 

Since I'm not a buddhist, know close to nothing about it, I don't have any sacred cows to protect. I'm just putting it out there for you guys to consider. Is your extreme dislike of this guy because he's an arrogant blasphemer? A few who spoke up to defend his banning specifically said that they took great personal offense to his absolutist attitudes and interpretations of buddhism and their experience of him dismissing their interpretations of buddhism. I am finding this ironic that the religion of compassion and non-violence (in this instance) acted (in my limited observation) like a fundamentalist religion where the arrogant blasphemer was shunned...

 

There is only one aspect of buddhism that I understand and like which is "Attachment leads to suffering." (I hope I got that right) And what I have seen is someone who successfully threatened some peoples attachments to their interpretations of "their" religion.

 

I know for me personally, when I have introduced some unorthodox discussions (Like Teutonic shamanism) that I threatened some people's sacred cows and I have had to wade through alot of attacks and insults of all kinds and it has made me hyper sensitive (apologies to Seth). I have been working lately to try and remember to re-read others posts to me before I react, because I have seen that I can project past stuff onto others' otherwise benign posts. I think that some here have done the same thing in this instance and overreacted which may have put an already defensive person on greater defense and created an escalating scenario of everybody projecting, defending themselves and going back for revenge...

 

Sorry guys, the fact that he was absolutist, arrogant, defensive, blasphemous and aggressive is NOT (IMO) sufficient grounds for banning...

Just putting it out there for people to consider....

Despite my recent dispute with moderators... This forum has changed so much over the last year or so that I don't know that it can flourish without some serious moderation. My only contention is that moderation, while necessary ,needs to be equitable and consistent. If moderation is going to be strict, it needs to be strict for all. If lenient, then lenient for all. Make a choice and commit to it... But in the current forum we have, I think moderation can be helpful. I have only been here for 3 years, but this place has changed radically since I got here. When I first got here although there were a few bad apples causing a ruckus and no lack of drama (including my own), many were sincere long time practitioners who focused on esoteric energy work. I see now that I got here relatively late just as the old guard was leaving and the new younger crowd was coming in. IME, the maturity level and knowledge level has decreased exponentially over the last year and am finding it increasingly more challenging to avoid bashing all the nonsense I read. I am sure there are members who do not fit into this newer category but I do not hear from them as much. They seem to have retreated into their own practice forums.

 

Some of the old timers whom I respected that were here when I got here have told me that they have packed up and left because of the current environment. IMO, We now have alot of teens and young adults here who have little to no actual experience but no lack of pride in their book knowledge. I think alot of people come here hoping to find a short cut to enlightenment or spiritual power etc... So instead of it being a place where people who work hard to seek out real training and experience and then share that real-life experience with like-minded people, instead we have the internet generation who want to be directed to the latest book that will give them some magic pill to make them the next John Chang and then engage in intellectual semantics about what they have read but not actually achieved... At least I find this to be true with the general discussion forum. I suppose other sub forums are different...

 

But, if we are talking pet peaves, My biggest one is the passive aggressive type already mentioned by a few who wear the veneer of spirituality, love and peace but reak with suppressed anger and insecurity. . The whole idea that spirituality means that one cannot have any negative feelings has fostered a society that is highly unconsciously passive aggressive. I am aware that I myself am aggressive, but I do try to be conscious about it and keep my aggressiveness in context and on topic and hopefully constructive...

 

However, my biggest peave on the discussion forum is when someone wants to challenge me on some issue I have raised or discussed and it's clear that I have pushed some major button, but instead of just simply saying, "I disagree with you, 5ET and here's why..." They want to couch their opposition in the form of a passive aggressive "spiritual" question like, "Gosh 5ET, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge (like I actually want my rear kissed), but what about x, y and z? Spiritual guru so and so says different. What is your view?" And then, like an idiot, I begin spouting my views thinking that this individual actually was interested in my opinion when what was really going on was that the person wanted to lure me into an intellectual argument and lace the conversation with passive aggressive, veiled insults while pretending to actually care about my opinion... I say, If you're going to challenge someone, go ahead and do it and own it. Just be conscious and constructive about it... So, now I find myself asking people, "Are you asking me because you want to know my opinion or because you want to challenge me and lure me into an argument? If so, I'm not interested."

 

Or even worse is the Drive-by-insult, where someone will attack something I have said, try to hide the attack within their post and lace it with judgements in the third person but not have the courage to mention me by name. My favorite one is that apparently I am "patriarchal."

 

Anyway, just venting... It would be nice to find a way to attract the serious seekers here and not the forum junkies. Other than my own, this is the only forum I visit. I hope that this forum stays a place of value for me...

woops! double post

So he currently has a week off posting to think about what he wants to get out of participation at TTB.

Has he been banned for a week? Why? I peeked into this thread and read this and assumed he had said something worthy of being banned so I actually read all his posts(hoping for some cheap entertainment) looking for the abusive or offensive posts that would merit such a disciplinary action and I did not see it. IME, a large percentage of the posters on this board are opinionated, hyper-intellectualized, immature and argumentative who become more hostile when confronted and tend to retreat into their ego and become entrenched in defending themselves in progressively irrational self-referential logic. ( I am certainly guilty of this)

 

But... that is a HUGE chunk of what TTBs is these days. And (in this thread at least) I found nothing of V Marco's posts that sits outside of the TTB's accepted norm. So, how does that merit this kind of discipline?

Am I missing something? Was there another thread where there was more abusive behavior?

 

As I read the thread, I also observed that many people chose to continue to react to his arguments and further provoke his entrenched aggressiveness and defensiveness by continuing to engage with him. There is an ignore user function that I use quite alot if someone becomes annoying. I myself have suffered far worse, very personalized public attacks (one recently which I brought to a mod's attention, which was promptly mimimized and explained away as harmless fun). I took it in stride as meaning that TTBs was seeking to have a more hands-off approach. But this banning has me rethinking that and wondering about the objectivity of some moderators.

 

I firmly believe in disciplinary action when merited, but if being annoying and argumentative is the only reason for such action, and if we are to be equal in our justice, then from my computer screen, we would have to ban 75% of all posters on TTBs

I 100% agree with you. But you are raising a different subject. No one is suggesting that any of the deities are confined to any locales. The discussion right now, is centered on the language of the names of some of the deities in Tibetan Buddhism not the essence of them... and how these particular names in Sanskrit were introduced into Tibet. My opinion is that those with sanskrit names are most likely imported (at least in name not essence) from India. That however has nothing to do with the essence of the deity in question or where they reside in the Universe which is another subject entirely however worthy of discussion it may be....

 

Ummm... seems to me that a celestial deity is not indigenous to any particular land mass or culture. A celestial deity is indigenous to the celestial realm in which they primarily reside... and even that is a little iffy as deities are consciously vast and multi-dimensional.

 

Now, a people of a culture might align themselves with a deities grace-stream through focus and devotion, but that doesn't mean that the deity came from that culture. Many cultures could devote to a single deity, doesn't mean that the deity came from anywhere local.

 

"There are lots of rooms

in my Father's Palace."

The problem with people is feeling the need to tell others what their problem is... And now I have just implicated myself as having the problem... How did that happen?

Not offhand. Let me know if you find any. From what little research I have done, you sort of have to choose between buddhist sources or Hindu sources. IMO, buddhist sources are extremely biased and want to Buddhicize everything. The Hindu sources are biased too, but IMO, not as much... But, IMHO, if a deity were truly an indigenous Tibetan deity, the name would not be in Sanskrit. I suppose they could Sanskritize any name they wished, but Tibetans still do have indigenous deities without sanskrit names. So, it is a reasonable (although not infallible) assumption to me that any indigenous Tibetan deity would not have a foreign name...

 

But if any source can be truly independent, I would be very interested in learning what they find...

 

Thanks! Do you know of a source of independent scholarly research on this that doesn't come from Hindu sources?

Yes. Akshobhya is a form of Shiva that was incorporated as a buddha into Tibetan buddhism. As I understand it, He is the Shiva aspect of Brihaspati or Brahma related to the planet Jupiter.

 

Not sure how reliable the information is - Akshobhya another name for Shiva?! - but here's another link on the Hindu and Buddhist Taras:

 

Tara The "Star"

So all is good right? Cool ... back to the pool table then ... your break if I recall

 

Yes, My break. I call stripes...

And if you ever, ever see me making any sort of superior martial arts claim then I beg you to be the first to smack me up the side of the head and demand that I prove myself in full combat. Deal?

Nope. It is a free Universe and you are permitted to make any claims you like and say and think whatever you like. I hate physical violence and I do not recommend it under any preventable circumstances. Is that wrong of me since I am also a martial artist?

 

Peace

Stiggie... You are taking this way too personally. I am getting the feeling you are not reading my posts thoroughly. go back and re-read my posts again without the defense. I am making no claims of any kind. Nor do I oppose anything you are trying to do. In fact I have encouraged you to please disprove this stuff. ( if that is what you want to do)

 

Stiggie, Because this was your thread, I peaked inside and wanted to chime in because I like and respect you and you have always struck me as a levelheaded, objective person. If this were one of the thousand other nonsense threads about this stuff, I would have ignored it. I didn't come in here to bash you. I am honestly sharing my experience with you. Do with it what you like...

 

I mean exactly what I say and I will say it again. Based on my personal experience....If what you want to do is personally experience this phenomena and then be able to replicate it, IN MY EXPERIENCE, you will have much better results if you simply go and try to learn it with an open mind and have fun. IN MY EXPERIENCE, if you try and "prove" it, you most likely will not be able to get any real scientific proof that will be universally recognized as proof. If on the off chance you find a real practicioner who is willing to allow you to put them in your lab experiments and on the off chance they have any abilities, you will be frustrated with the results. Unless they are only exhibiting tendon strength and calling it FaJin, then you will easily be able to disprove it as anything other than good body mechanics and the laws of physics. I predict (if they are for real) that conclusive proof will evade you. In the end, you will only have your personal experience and you will not be able to prove it. If you try and prove it and you are able to have a personal experience, your mindset of trying to prove it will prohibit you from being able to replicate it. That is my experience. I mentioned the right brain, left brain thing because when I was training, while I was able to experience the phenomena passively while analyzing it, I was unable to replicate the phenomena unless I was deep in my right brain.

 

I also didn't say you were 'full of anger," I said that your desire to challenge people is based in anger. I get angry with people that I feel are frauds too. I am furious with the Tea party. Anger has it's place. I am not judging anger. If you feel these people are ruining the reputation of Tai Chi, then you are justified in your anger and you should do something about it.. But if you want to learn it... it will not help you learn energy strikes... That is just my experience.

 

You can get offended if you want but as someone on this board I actually respect, and assuming you really want to understand this phenomena, then I am sharing what I know. Seriously, dude, take it or leave it... It still seems to me that you have an intense personal agenda with alot of emotions attached to it. Otherwise, I think If you were really honestly just curious to discover for yourself one way or another about this you wouldn't put so much effort into all this experiment stuff. You would just go out and try and learn it. If you were firm in your disbelief you would just let it go.

 

I never said there was anything wrong with your question either. I am not advertising myself in this regard. I no longer practice Fa Qi and I don't teach it. I don't care if I ever experience it again in this life. so I have no personal stake in this at all and therefore I do not feel the need to cowtow to your demand that I answer your question. I don't care about the existence or non-existence of these abilities. You do. Ask someone who has the need to prove something. I don't.

 

I very much take exception to your insinuations here Mike. Continue that line of accusation and I can assure you that our discussion here will become very much less civil.

 

Wow! what insinuations? What do you think I have insinuated that has you ready to become so uncivil???

 

You are doing exactly what these other chaps have done when I directed my straight-forward question to them ... they tried to establish that there must be something wrong with the person asking. In their case they assumed that I must be some sort of rookie noob who doesn't have the necessary experience or correct training.

I am not saying anything of the kind. I have merely shared with you that FROM MY EXPERIENCE as someone who has trained in this kind of thing for many years, that you will not make any headway with the analytical approach... That is all. You can argue from now until forever about the need for left brain this and that. And I will agree with you most of the time except in this instance and only based on my experiences, (If what you say is true and what you want is to either prove or disprove this phenomenom so you can either learn it or forget about it) I predict that your approach will not work for you. That is all. I may be wrong and will promptly and happily apologize after your search if I am...

 

And in terms of your lethal combat test being the only legitimate laboratory. I wonder if you have really thought this through. If that is the case then every single clip on the web, including yours, are fake and phony. Because not a single one of them are shown in lethal combat scenarios.

You and I are in 100% agreement here. Everything ever put on video ( including my old stuff that I heartily regret and would take down if I could) is total nonsense because it does not show what would happen in life and death combat scenario. This is what I have been saying. I am with you fully on this point. But you want to paint me as your adversary as someone arguing for proving the existence of this stuff. I am not. It means NOTHING. PLEASE disprove it. Whether it is real or not... It's worthless in the game of life and a distraction to real spiritual growth.

 

And have you applied your "skills" in lethal combat Mike where someone was trying to end your life?? I am willing to lay odds that you haven't, in that case you only have your blind faith that your skills are real. Are you willing to risk your life on something that you have no tested proof of being effective Mike?

Nope. Have you applied your skills in lethal combat? Do you still think they would work based on your training? What makes me different than you? I have proved my fighting skills in real life to my satisfaction regardless of whether they are "spiritual" abilities or not. They worked damn good against some pretty mean folks. I was not thinking about the supernaturalness of them and that is my point. I am trying to say that... whatever these Qi oriented skills are or not is irrelevant. Qi is a force just like any other. I may have a different experience of it than you in terms of Martial arts, but I don't consider Qi phenomena to be anything other than another force of nature like muscles or wind or electricity. Lou ferrigno would look like a god to 1st century pygmies. While we are on the subject, since you are putting these demnstrators on the podium and demand that they be willing to prove their powers in combat, then it is only fair that you also be prepared to test them yourself in combat. Are you willing to do that? Or are you only willing to put them under your microscope according to your parameters? That standard goes both ways...

 

Stig, I have no animosity toward you. I am sorry to have offended you, I meant none... I wish you luck in your experiments...

Look at the last posted video and you will see what, for the moment, I am focusing on. Now would you call this Fa Jin or Fa Qi in your books?

I'm not sure what "books" you mean. I haven't nor would I write any books about this stuff. No. it is not Fa Qi at all. Fa Qi involves violent strikes. Looking at it, it would look no different than a slap or a punch. In the case of Fa Qi, the only person who knows the difference in terms of energy is the guy getting hit.

 

So if we brought it all back to me, I am wanting clarity on this whole issue of fajin i.e. the fajin that these chaps are carrying on with. On a purely selfish level I am wanting to decide if that sort of training is something I want to engage in, but if it truly is just all BS, and nothing has convinced me otherwise thus far, then I will just keep on my merry way with my current training.

 

Then don't waste your time. Save your money. First let me say that Fa Jin is no big deal. It is just tendon flexibility combined with proper structure and techinque. If you are a true Tai Ji player and you have been taught how to stretch the tendons and increase Qi through your form, you can reproduce what is on the video posted earlier. In fact you could learn to do it in one day. I think what you are trying to prove is this "empty force" nonsense, not fa Jing. The guy in the video is moving and would not pass your test. He is just moving very, very slightly. watch again, you will see. This other guy has a book and teaches seminars. You can practice fa jing all day on others. Why not go see him and tell us what you think? I would love to hear about his classes.

 

Fa Qi will look just like Ali's phantom punch and people are still debating that whole thing just from a Western boxing perspective. So forget about proving Fa Qi. Listen, Stig. You are smart guy, how can you not see that this the whole idea of "proving" this stuff is ludicrous.

 

IME, and IMO, You are at cross purposes with yourself here. If you want to see if this is something you want to learn then, go learn it and find out if you like it or not. Speaking from experience in learning this stuff and watching others try to do so, if one comes into this type of training with a "prove it to me attitude" they are operating from the left brain. at best they will experience it, but will not be able to replicate it. One must be able to tap into the right brain and have fun. You can't have fun if you are simultaneously trying to demand objective proof. That is an angry defense mechanism behavior that has it's place. But it won't help you learn. Try learning a musical instrument while being angry and "testing" the existence of music. As long as you are actively trying to to figure it out and "test" it with the left brain, you will probably not be able to replicate the technique. So as someone who has gone down this road before, I say, make up your mind: do you want to test it or do you want to learn it? If you think that you will be able to test it to your satisfaction and then turn around and learn it, you will have to accomplish a huge feat of mental gymnastics to switch mindsets. I have never seen anyone who thinks they can figure this stuff out be able to replicate it. You may be different. The best way to test it is to get hit. Then decide what you think.

 

On a less selfish level I certainly would like to see some clarity out in the Taiji world around this. People are getting ripped off and suckered in daily and the whole mess really does give this fine tradition the smell of last weeks underwear.

I am of the opinion that this is your real motive here. I can sense the anger. and it is understandable. I am in agreement with you that those who show this stuff off are mostly frauds and should be exposed. And if so, then go disprove it and take back Tai Ji for what it should be. You will be successful. Then you can go back to your training and promote Taiji as you like. As I said earlier, even if you are very respectful, IME, the anger you carry with you concerning the issue will weigh you down and you will not be able to replicate the technique. IME, On a physical level, the anger will get your energy trapped in your deltoid muscles and prevent you from releasing the Qi through the tendons from the earth and you will be forced to use your own physical muscle power instead. In terms of proof, I think that you are mistaken if you think that any "proof" one way or other will change anyone's opinions. Those that want to believe will do so regardless and those who don't want to believe never will do so no matter how much "proof" you bring.

 

So instead of all the ambiguousness and misinformation, I would just like to have some simple clarity that everyone can enjoy. And just me, or anyone for that matter, saying "Hey guys I felt it and it works" is simply not good enough.

Sorry, but IME, that is the best you are going to get. You will only be able to prove or disprove it for yourself. The nature of the energy involved requires this. Again, I am talking from experience here. The only sure thing is that you will disprove it if that is what you want. If it is real, IME, you will never be able to prove it.

 

Which brings me back to the question, can anyone please show this stuff in full contact combat or in a scientific environment? If you can't then this sort of fajin is at best just a pointless waste of time.

(please note that the followng response is only hypothetical I am in no way promoting violence) Yes. Hypothetically speaking only... One would need to pick a fight with someone who has this ability and is prepared to end your life. if one could find them one must also be prepared to also kill them. If one were trying to kill them, they wouldn't care about the camera. If their life and yours is not at risk, the camera is a factor that will alter your findings... Guaranteed! A real fight is the only true test. That is what this stuff was designed for, not for exhibition. IMO, any "controlled environment" is BS because there is no real threat and that includes demo matches, cage matches, etc.... The only real laboratory is a real fight where you are in a fight with someone determined to end your life. Anything else is meaningless. Are we talking martial sports or martial arts? Martial ARTS is about killing. Tai Ji was originally designed as a killing art. The health benefits were a side effect. I think you already know this.

 

Excuse my directness Mike, but could you pass the test in the OP with your skills?? If not, why not?

Thanks for the honesty. So, now we get to it. You are challenging me? There is the anger again. I haven't indicated that I am at all interested in proving this stuff. In fact I have stated that I want you to disprove it if that is your real motive which I feel it is. I believe the whole idea is a distraction. I have already said that even if hypothetically it does exist, it means nothing at all. I have already stated that I don't agree with the whole idea of showboating any kinds of abilities martial or otherwise. I have stated that I believe it to be counterproductive on a spiritual basis. You know this. Why would I want to prove anything? How does that benefit me? Assuming I had these abilities, I would be injuring my own spirit simply by trying to gain your approval. So, why do you want to provoke me into having to "prove" myself by stating whether or not I can do this? You have now made me your adversary and I like you. You are the one who needs to prove or disprove this not I. So, I decline to answer as is my right since I have no stake in this discussion one way or the other. Honestly is there any answer that I could give that you would respect? I wouldn't. I already stated that IME, any teacher who would allow themself to be forced into proving themself to satisfy another's idle curiosity is very insecure and should not be teaching. IME, if you find a teacher who has these abilities and is willing to allow you to force them into proving themselves, they are dangerous and destructive people and should be avoided...

 

 

 

Listen, Stig. I mean what I say. I am only sharing these suggestions because I have experience as one who has spent a lot of time learning in an environment where Fa Qi was taught. I am only sharing from my experience what will best help you if you truly want to learn it. I am not arguing for it one way or the other. I am not trying to promote it. I am suggesting that you decide one way or the other what you want. So you want to honestly seek this out to learn it? Or are you angry and skeptical and want to disprove it. Because IME, having trained in these kinds of environments for many years, If you want to learn it, drop the whole ego driven "prove it to me" attitude because the technique will run away from you just like stillness of mind will run away from a skeptical meditator who wants to "prove" the Tao.

 

IMHO, I still don't think you have investigated what your real motives and personal issues here are. I could be wrong, but I suspect that there is anger and fear. And as a Taoist, you know where those emotions will take you.

 

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you well and look forward to your findings...

 

my .02

Forgive me. I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if I repeat something that has already been dealt with..

First off there is huge misunderstanding out there about what "Fa Jing" is.

 

There are at least four different types of energy strikes. (that I am aware of)

Fa Li (muscle strength)

Fa Jing (tendon strength)

Fa Qi (energy strength)

Fa Shen (Spirit Strikes)

 

The first kind can be done by any trained martial artist. Can be deadly but not that uncommon.

 

The second kind is what most people think is energy strikes. It is actually using the tendons to deliver energy blows. It is extremely effective and Qi energy is part of it, but it is useless without good body mechanics and grounding. If someone's posture is off, the technique won't work or they will only hurt themselves as Qi can rebound back on the person. I am willing to bet the guy in the video (assuming it is for real) is using tendon power not Qi power. (I could be wrong) It is very effective and can only be done by someone who has worked to loosen the tendons and knows how to send Qi out the hands through tendons.

 

The third kind is more powerful and more rare. But there is a misunderstanding about it also. demonstrations of Fa Qi look completely staged and ridiculous unless you are the one receiving it. I and my former teacher have tried to demonstrate Fa Qi on video and it always looked ridiculous. This is because people are expecting the recipient to fly backwards. If someone has true Fa Qi ability, the recipient will not move backwards but will fall (or most often) slump forward. What you see is the attacker striking the person or even slapping the person, you may hear a loud crack and the recipient falls forward. It looks really fake until you feel it for yourself. If you strike a heavy bag with Fa Qi, you may hear a slap but the bag will not move. If the bag moves, then it is not true Fa Qi. This is the kind of stuff that is most lethal in terms of Dim mak.

The fourth kind is the real type of energy strike that does not need one to touch the opponent and is very rare. I have only have very limited experience with this so I cannot intelligently comment on it.

 

So, Stig... I'm a little confused as to what your motive is. Do you want to learn Fa jing methods? Or do you need someone to prove it to you so you can then go and learn it? Do you want to disprove it? What is the real motive here? I know enough about you to know that you understand the value of a teacher and of humility in seeking to learn. But if someone recommends that you seek to verify these abilities by seeking out teachers who can teach this, you seem to say that means that you must give out all your money to frauds. I don't think demanding that this be proven to you before you are willing to seek out a teacher will get you very far. Any teacher who needs their ego stroked and succumbs to demands of proof is not someone I would recommend learning from. IME, Energy strikes cannot be mastered by someone with a heavy or materialistic mindset. I have seen it over and over again. The attitude of "prove it to me and I will let you teach me" will weigh you down and trap you in your left brain. Some things need to be approached with awe and respect. That has nothing to do with the teacher it is about the student. Also, IME, most people who demand "proof" are coming from a place of anger. And that anger will prohibit them understanding how to implement the technique. If you are serious about learning this, you will need to know this.

 

 

So, Stiggie, I applaud your determination to discover the truth about these things... if they are something you really want to learn, but the little I have read here in regards to your attitude in demanding proof about something that should rightfully be a spiritual attainment is ( I think) misguided understanding of the technique If you are seeking to disprove this stuff, hey... Look no further. There is mountains of evidence that can easily statistically disprove it's existence. If that is your motive, then just accept that it is not real and move on with your life. If this stuff is real, it is pure fluff and has no real worth in MA or Spirituality. Otherwise if you stay in the middle here You may just make yourself miserable. I have seen this happen too. People who are doubtful but want to be persuaded. Even if they DO experience it, after a day or two, their minds try to explain it away. If they can't either resolve their doubts or accept them, they end up obsessed with it on a physical level and it destroys their other training. I have seen this happen too. Perhaps the lesson is that teachers should have more humility and not post videos of this kind of stuff on the internet. It only seems to make others angry and cynical and foster spiritual insecurity...

my .02...With respect,

Mike

fiveelementtao, simplicity rules,

 

Wow, you people are great.

So Tara and other deities were mixed with Buddhism while Buddhism was still in India, and then the already-mixed Buddhism came into Tibet? Is that the right order of events? It's an interesting topic.

 

Hmm, I'm not quite sure if Tara was absorbed into buddhism in India first or tibet. I suspect that she wasn't absorbed into Indian buddhism at all. Tibetan buddhism is unique in that it it is very tantric (by tantric, I mean esoteric Hindu magic) Tara is BIG in tantric hinduism. She is one of the TEN manifestations of Parvati/Durga. wait..I'm getting ahead of myself...let me back up.

 

According to my sources, orthodox Buddhism was first introduced into Tibet in the 8th century. It was received well by the Ruling classes but as you can imagine, the indigenous Bon-Po shamans did not take kindly to their ancestral path being overtaken by a foreign religion. So, as the story goes, the Bon -Po shamans began launching magical attacks against Buddhists and Buddhist missionaries these attacks lasted for a hundred years. Orhtodox Buddhism was not powerful enough to combat the magic of the shamans. So, the ruling buddhists called in spiritual mercenaries from India to combat the Black magic of the shamans... Enter Padmasambhava, the founder of Tantric Buddhism in Tibet... Bear in mind that Buddhism in India can be considered as a sect of Hinduism. Indian Hindus have incorporated buddha into Hinduism and they consider Buddha to be one of the ten incarnations of Visnhu. So, a Hindu could worship Buddha without becoming an orthodox Buddhists.

 

Anyway, my point is that Padmasambhava was a buddhist who incorporated traditional Indian magic into his religion...Vedic and Tantric Hinduism into his religion which included Vedic rituals, mantras and spells. In order to combat the Bon-Po shamans, Padmasambhava used Indian Tantric Rituals, mantras and spells to defeat the indigenous gods of Tibet and then he masterfully "converted" these "demons" into buddhist protection spirits. So, today in Tibet, you have a combination of Buddhism, Tantric Hinduism, Vedic ritual AND converted tibetan deities who now act as "Protectors" of buddhism in Tibet. It was a brilliant strategy!

GIH is absolutely correct. Tara was imported into Tibetan buddhism, but she was not an indigenous Tibetan deity. She was a hindu goddess. She is one of the ten Mahavidyas (Great Wisdoms). Her Moola (Base) mantra is the one you shared. Tara means "star" in sanskrit. According to Vedic knowledge (which predates both Hinduism and Buddhism), She is the Shakti of Brihaspati (Lord of Prayers) who is an aspect of Brahma. He is the teacher of the gods and is the master of mantra and ritual ceremony. He is connected to the planet Jupiter. After marrying Brihaspati, Tara was seduced by the Moon and she left Brihaspati for the moon but was given back to Brihaspati later.

 

Tara represents the aspect of Divine intelligence that first learns the "rules" of spirituality and then "rebels" to learn unorthodox secrets and then brings that secret knowledge back to orthodox understanding. Tara is an aspect of Saraswati, the wife of Brahma. She is the master of the Word and of Mantra. She is the deepest aspect of Wisdom.

 

Tibetan buddhists have their roots in Tantric hinduism. It was tantric hinduism that was used to defeat the indigenous Tibetan gods and "convert" them to buddhism. This is why Tibetan buddhism is so rooted in magic and tantra as opposed to say, the "Ch'aan (Zen) buddhists.

 

Many of the Tibetan buddhist deities are actually tantric hindu gods renamed as buddhas.

 

I know some of the buddhists here will want to argue this point but the history is pretty clear that Tantric buddhism has it's roots in Tantric Hinduism.

Hi Shen,

It is not uncommon for people to need less sleep as the energy levels increase. In My experience, this indicates a shift in energy. But, it is also my experience that as your body adjusts to the energy, it will normalize.

But, it is a good sign that you are raising your vibrational level. As always, if it is too intense, you can back off on training. I have also found that a regular routine, will also balance things out as your body gets used to the new routine.

Thanks for the update,

Mike

 

Update on my training in level 1, finally got around to doing some full on training a couple days ago and I must say this energy has helped me immensely on getting through my day and I have a question, is it normal for this practice to shave hours off of ones sleep?

 

Warmest Regards,

 

Shen

As I understand it, from your post, you are considering suicide to reduce or eliminate your pain. Yes? So, the only real question is, Will committing suicide reduce your pain or not?..

 

The most logical and practical argument for not killing oneself for me comes from the school of thought that says that we all made the choice to incarnate as humans before we were born and we chose our life circumstances in order to learn and grow.

 

According to this school of thought, if we commit suicide, then we are sabotaging the lessons that we chose to learn and therefore, we will have to come back and learn the same lessons again only in harsher conditions.

 

If this is true, then suicide will not reduce our pain but instead increase it next time around.

 

So, I say, be selfish and think it through logically, "Am I absolutely sure that suicide will reduce my pain?" If you cannot say "Yes" to that question, then it seems the logical thing to do would be to seek to learn the lessons and grow from them otherwise, you may be making it much harder for yourself next time around.

 

There are of course many other reasons not to commit suicide, but in your current state of mind, you might find them to be cheesy or guilt motivated.

 

And even if we do experience pain in life, there are people who seem genuinely happy. So, I think a better use of energy is to ask why others are happy and what do they do differently than me?

Hi Matt,

I am assuming that you are being serious.

If so, you should know that the "curse" thing is a typical scam that fake psychics drop onto potential victims. Money and relationships are problems for everybody. Don't buy into it. The next thing they do is want you to give them some cash so they can do a ritual. Then they keep asking for more money to relieve the curses. People have lost thousands on that scam.

The only curses we have are the ones we put on ourselves. The best thing you can do to relieve any life challenges is just work to be a conscious person and fearlessly face your issues. IME, another good remedy is to see a vedic astrologer and find out some good mantras or meditations to appease any planetary issues. But whatever you do don't go back to that psychic...

peace,

Mike

 

 

I was at a metaphysical expo today, and told by a psychic that I have a curse on me in regards to money and relationships. There actually are two areas of my life that have been problematic for a long time. So what I am wondering is how to remove any such curses?

There is more than one type of belief in reincarnation. I am of the belief that doctrines are things we should use to help us live happier lives. So, be creative and allow yourself to believe what helps you enjoy life the most. I am of the unorthodox belief that the challenges in our lives are thing we have CHOSEN to experience. I see earthly life as a school. I agree that if challenges are some kind of punishment, that it feels very cruel to me. But, if this life is more like a video game where while we are in the game it feels really intense, but as soon as our last guy is killed, we say, "that was fun! let's go again." That gives me a sense of empowerment. Many of the orthodox doctrines of reincarnation feel like punishment to me so I do not adopt them. I prefer to adopt beliefs that I find to be pro-active in helping me in life rather than explanations that simply give me some kind of intellectual safety but may tend to limit me into a reality I don't like so much.

 

For me the belief in reincarnation is not something I worship. I do not know if it is true. I believe it is. But even if it isn't, I am searching for ways that I can empower myself as much as possible in order to be as happy and successful as I can be.

 

For me believing that everything in my life is a choice that I made before coming into this virtual reality game called human life gives me mindset that seeks to enjoy and benefit from everything I experience. And it has helped me work through challenges much faster than before. I don't think the guilt trip is very helpful. IMO and IME.

 

my .02

Never mind..

(sigh)

K

I get it that your parents shoved their opinion down your throat and blamed you for everything. I also get it that I remind you of them in how I share my opinions. But I am not blaming you for what you have lived through. I am sharing what has worked for me.

 

It is frustrating to me as I read your posts that it seems that any time someones suggests to you (especially me) that you are responsible for everything in your life that you can only hear it as blame or criticism and spend your energy defending yourself and intellectually arguing against what you "do and don't believe in" instead of focusing on the merits of what people are saying.

 

I think Manitou is explaining the concept very well and in a very compassionate way, so perhaps I should give the floor to her.

 

So, I will retire from this thread. Good luck...