Sloppy Zhang

Trunk has linked to several threads in which the nagas and people affected by said nagas were discussed over and over again. It's in one of the larger Kunlun threads (not very helpful, I know). But I do remember the discussion, Trunk isn't making stuff up. If it has that's a good sign, it means we're finally talking about something meaningful, something people care about. If all we did was nod and agree, or smile and say, "I disagree, but whatever", chances are good that 1) we'd be very superficial and 2) we'd be fooling ourselves. At least that's how I see it It looked to me like it was charging up energy in a dragonball z type fashion...... What I am much more interested in about Kunlun is how it develops the person- not what entities it attracts. The fliers all say things like "rapid re-enlightenment", "awakening dormant abilities", and "working with guides" (not jut seeing scary nagas ) If Kunlun really empowered people, opened spiritual eyes, and took them to the next level so quickly, well then, I'd like to hear about stuff OTHER than snakes.... Like, I dunno, mind reading tell the snakes to go away with your awakened dormant potential from your "junk" DNA and move on with your life.

B.K. Frantzis has some excellent books out. "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body", "Relaxing Into Your Being", and "The Great Stillness" (a second volume after relaxing into your being) teach excellent fundamental exercises that will get you in tune with your body, get you feeling energy, and really form an excellent foundation for anything you want to do. For better or worse, Frantzis has explicitly said that he's not putting any "higher level" or "energy intensive" practices in book form, so to learn that from him you'll either have to go to a seminar or find some of his higher level students certified to teach. But if you have the fundamentals down, and look around, you should be able to figure out for yourself what you can and cannot handle, and who is good for teaching what.

That sounds pretty cool, maybe we should make it the name of our Tao Bum Pai lineage Sssshhhhhh

I personally get particular vibes from a Kunlun thread every once in a while. When I first saw Max's picture when someone posted it in a thread, all the hair of my body stood up, there was definitely an energy sensation. And now that I'm at the moment paying particular attention to cultivating my ability to feel, I'm starting to get stronger and more consistent vibes from certain kunlun threads, or certain posts related to kunlun (I also get vibes from other posts, certain websites, and things)... But the point is, I think you CAN be influenced "just by thinking about Kunlun" (or anything else for that matter). Then again, you can also "trick" yourself into believing whatever you want, and if you think Kunlun does something to you (maybe negatively), you may increase the intensity of whatever is actually happening, if anything at all. I remember an old thread in which someone said that just reading the Kunlun book is a type of "transmission" that gets you closer to that energy lineage.

I pretty had a similar experience that you had, and kind of view Wong Kiew Kit in the same category as Yang Jwing Ming. For a beginner, the books are great. I have a few friends that bought some of his (Wong Kiew Kit's) books as an introduction to martial arts, or an introduction to certain types of meditation/qigong, to get the history, a little modern background, and some moves (and they are very good at doing that). It's not that Wong Kiew Kit's stuff is inherently bad or without substance. I just branched out and found other guys that were more my style, provided methods that vibed with me more, and overall I felt could sustain me in the long term. I honestly don't know much about him personally, his lineage, or stuff like that. If one has misgivings about him, then in my opinion find someone else who gives you everything that you need. Some people get into Wong Kiew Kit's stuff and stick with it, I didn't. Then again, I never trained with him personally or been to a class of his or anyone affiliated with him, it was mostly stuff I checked out from his books, I didn't feel the need to pursue what he taught in person. Maybe someone who has trained with him personally would have a much different opinion

I second this.

Pinch yourself. Or take up some qigong. B.K. Frantzis has a lot of good books, and one of the things he emphasizes when doing circle walking meditation is to focus on your feet. I'm just like you, I have a lot of stuff going on in my head, all the time. Thoughts, plans for future, reflections on the past, a song I like (let's just say I have no need for an iPod with the way my mind cycles through songs). Any type of method or technique that draws my attention lower- to my dantien, place where I pinch myself, to my feet- allows my consciousness do go down (out of my head), and out (spreading to my whole body). When I can do that, I am "present".

Well for an introduction to lucid dreaming www.ld4all.com is a great website, and has a rather extensive forum where you can read about other peoples' experiences and get some thoughts and ideas for your own dreams/OBE's. I haven't really tried to experiment much with OBE's, mostly because I am trying to get a good handle on lucid dreaming first, being in control over my own mind, and other things of that sort. You know, fixing myself on this plane before screwing around on another one I will say though that there reaches a point in which outside help doesn't, well, help. At least, not any outside help that I've been able to find (then again, I'm one of those poor pathetic souls that think you can find good teachings for free on the net so maybe a lineage teacher will have some better techniques) For example, there are a lot of methods, or I guess you could say "tricks" to help you get lucid. And those are all well and good. But the most profound lucid dreams I've had were when I just "popped" into lucidity. Suddenly everything was all there. I guess going along with what Ya Mu has been saying, I pulled myself together (or I was pulled together), and was able to be lucid. No lucid dreaming "techniques" or "methods" involved. To that extent, I have really felt that my meditation practices as well as my lucid dreaming practices have really come together. It's all about awareness, and things like that. At least, that's my working theory for now Anyway, that was a rambling post..... if you are just getting into lucid dreaming, use the methods on that site as a foothold to create your own methods.

Dreams are awesome. A lot of different theories, traditional interpretations, and other interesting study and research on dreams. Some people say that it's nothing more than your brain firing randomly in your sleep, which accounts for the jumbled and (seemingly?) random nature of dreams. Others in that same vein say it's your mind processing information after it "wakes up" but before your body wakes, or that it is your subconscious processing information/screwing around. Others say your mind or astral self wanders around and meets whatever happens to be in the local area, and maybe even meets with things from further away. And then there are all kinds of methods of lucid dreaming or initiating out of body experiences from lucid dreams, which let you do some pretty neat things. I personally think that it depends on the person, depends on the dream, and depends on the situation. I've found all of the above to hold for me, and not one theory (that I've heard of, at least) works across the board.

So lately in my practice I've been really focusing on staying "connected", with other people, with the environment, the "universe" in general, and trying to tune into "the flow", I guess you could say, of things. But in doing so I've started to realize how separate I have my myself through my life, and I'm starting to realize how "separate" we all make ourselves in general. But it's kind of a double edged sword, because now that I'm feeling connected to more and more things, I'm also picking up on strange new feelings and energies. It's not that it's disturbing necessarily, it's just.... well new, and a lot of it feels very foreign and strange. I guess another way of thinking about it is my sense of "personal space" is changing, in that I am starting to feel more things from further away, so my "personal bubble" is shifting around. Anyway, I was just wondering what advice any of you had with dealing with new energies and feelings such as these. What helps or has helped you or others in getting through this stage?

There are some instances when I breathe, and I feel like stuff is "filling up", then a couple minutes later as I relax more, I "lose" that feeling. I think that in some instances, our search for "energy" and "moving energy" can actually cause some tension, mental and physical. If you are doing a practice that is about relaxing, eventually you get to a point where you have relaxed and let go of that physical sensation. But then you/your ego wants that energy feeling so bad, it tries to get it, but your body is relaxed, and you have to fight against the whole thing so you can get your energy "back", even though you are really taking a step backwards. So if you are doing dantien breathing, for example, just breathe into the dantien and relax. If you feel energy, great. If you don't, well don't flip out. For all you know that is the natural state and the "energy state" is unnatural. Or your body is doing its own thing as a result of the practice. Which is good, especially when you are just getting into the groove of things. Most of us are very disconnected from our bodies, and we have to get used to being more connected- we start experiencing sensations that are totally natural and probably always happened but we ignored for a long time. In short, don't worry about it.

Read my edited post, I included what I initially planned to write, but erased at the last minute, if you want to see some emotions and ideas that arise first. There's not much more that I can say. I have said the same things in other threads in the past. I can't do much more. All I can say is that, I've been involved in martial arts nearly my entire life. I have met some great people along the way, very skilled and awesome, trustworthy, and honorable people one could ever hope to meet... but I have been the victim of any number of martial arts frauds, and I have been put out thousands of dollars to afford schools and traveling to schools so that I could find, and learn from, the "real deal". The kind of stuff you are saying is the same thing those frauds say. In the end, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. Martial arts masters of old routinely proved their metal. You cannot imagine how surprised I was when I compared what some of my martial arts instructors said to what some of the founders and top students of those arts said. There is no comparison. You have to fight. Period. If you don't fight, you are kidding yourself, and worse, you are fooling others. There is no honor or integrity in that AT ALL.

The second I wrote that I knew you were going to say that (no offense, but that's the kind of cut and paste response I've seen everywhere from all kinds of, no offense, frauds), and that's not the message I wanted to convey, which is why I immediately changed my answer. Honestly, your answer wants to make me puke. That type of answer is what is used as an excuse for everything under the sun. "Do you spar?" "No because we want to keep the honor and integrity of these killing techniques." "Do you compete?" "No because we want to keep the honor and integrity of these real techniques." Yang Luchan competed, his son, Yang Banhou competed. The Chens traveled all over the place and competed. Research any number of internal martial arts masters, they ALL participated in REAL fights, on the "street" or in the "ring", in PUBLIC matches that were viewed by MANY against real challengers who could actually test their skills (as opposed to a bunch of out of shape students who don't know what they are doing) Do you think that they had less honor and integrity than a bunch of fat, out of shape people going around spouting that nonsense? Again, let me reiterate that I have the utmost respect for martial arts and the martial artists who practice them.... but it is a sad fact that statements such as your have brought DIShonor to the martial arts, and have compromised their integrity. Earlier you talked about a doughnut maker and an archer, and how they can't compete because they believe two different things. Well an MMAist believes he can fight and competes and so his fighting techniques have integrity. An IMAist also believes he can fight, so should be able to match the same standard, NO EXCUSES.

Why not?

Just because I have "graduated from my ego" doesn't mean I can't compete in a fighting competition. Just because I don't have anything to prove doesn't mean I can't be there. If I had the level of development that many masters claim to have and could do some of the things those stories say some of those masters could do, I'd step into the ring, face the guy, deflect his attack, stand in the middle of the ring, with my guard down (that way he will keep attacking and the fight wouldn't be stopped because neither of us were doing anything), and keep deflecting his attacks. I'd use my rooting power to prevent being taken down. If it looks like I'll be hit, I'll use direct qi to that area so when he hits he will hurt his hand a bit (but not break it). I'd do that for 3-5 rounds, then proceed to be declared the winner because I controlled a dominant position in the ring for the entire time. Then everyone will know of my style, and people would study it and practice it for years to come... And that story is pretty much how every traditional martial art (including the internal martial arts), came to prominence.

What I have seen is that there is refined movement at higher levels of external arts- so that it becomes just as subtle as any internal martial arts. There are very old judo guys, for example, that throw young guys like it's nothing. The young guys can't take 'em down, and when the young guy says, "screw it, I'm just gonna plow through this guy, I don't need to only use the techniques I've been taught here" (and you can see that expression in the way they move), the old guy sends them flying. People slam aikido and about how it is lame, but I've seen judo guys use aikido like moves against resisting opponents who are 30-40 years younger and weigh nearly 100 lbs more. There are boxers, even old retired boxers, that don't even need to block punches, they just use footwork and body positioning that looks eerily like bagua. So, you know, it really makes you wonder. Well, it at least makes me wonder. Which is also why I'd really like some IMAists to step up. Because, you know, the external arts can develop some pretty amazing skills, and if the IMAists can top even that, well.....

Again I ask: so why don't they? Yeah, there are guys who do that on video, then get the crap beat out of them. And, of course, they come up with all manner of explanations for WHY, usually along the lines of: "Well when a student wants healing they deliberately open themselves up, but when you fight someone they are not going to be open, so you have to put in more energy to make them stop, which can hurt them so instead I just got punched in the face." Sticking with the "qi energy model", I have my own theory: Qi follows intent, and MMAists and other high level external martial artists, even if they don't believe in qi, per se, have put a lot of time and effort into working out and getting strong. They have very developed willpower. So when they want to put someone down, they focus all of that into putting you down, and all the qi goes behind it. Which means an IMA master has to match that with their own "qi", and then do even better. Of course, I could be completely wrong. A high level IMA master can be so far beyond any external MAist......... but if that's the case, again, I ask, why don't they fight? If all they are going to do is bounce them away, block it with their large qi belly, or neutralize all their attacks, or redirect the force so the person defeats themselves, why don't they do it? If their tactics would the the same (or highly similar), whether they are in a "ring" or on the "streets", why don't they step into the right? Who cares if it's a padded fist instead of a normal one, who cares if there isn't broken glass on the ground or 5 other people waiting in the shadows to stab you in the back the moment you execute a takedown? A high level IMAist would never do something so stupid as going to the ground anyway.... Let's also not forget the old Chinese saying that Yang Jwing Ming puts in all of his books, "external arts flow from external to internal, internal arts flow from internal to external", so a high level teacher from either one is going to be teaching the same stuff......

You CAN forgive yourself. DO forgive yourself. You ARE worthy of the teachings. EVERYONE has a beast inside, EVERYONE has to deal with the "dark side" of themselves at one time or another. Some people have more "public" "dark sides" than other people, and some people just never take the time to face their worse half. The fact that you 1) have these problems and 2) are thinking about these problems are GOOD SIGNS. It means you are on the right track. The fact that you've come across something hard to do means that it is very important, not something that can be taken lightly, and will likely have a much greater impact on your life than you realize at the moment. Also, as has already been said, you can talk yourself into or out of anything. You can take what I just said and twist it to be something negative, you can twist it to mean all sorts of horrible things that aren't going to get you anywhere, and will only make you feel worse. Or you can take what I said and use it to your benefit, to meet the challenge and surpass it. You can do it, you are a strong person, you just have to do it

So why don't they? (choose however many that apply, when asked to provide your own answer, use the blank space provided) a) Because they don't practice martial arts to prove they are better than everyone else b ) Because the ring is not "real life" c) Because they don't want the publicity and would rather practice in secret, keeping the teachings to a few students of proven moral character d) Because the modern world couldn't handle the shock of having everything they believed about martial arts pulled out from under them e) An original answer that you provide that hasn't been said a million times I'm sorry.... but WHAT? What part of "invites them to join in and contribute" makes you NOT like that? If you are a fighter, claim to know how to fight, and claim to be TEACHING how to fight (and possibly save yourself or someone else's life), you should be able TO FIGHT. Again, all the classic martial arts masters, internal or external, PROVED they had the goods. Xingyi, Taichi, Bagua, ALL of these guys got up either in the ring or on the leitai and PROVED they could fight. In some instances they beat the shit out of the guy. In some situations they bounced them gently away, or put them down with a minimal amount of pain. If a high level guy is really so "high level", it shouldn't matter what the rules are, and someone who has cultivated that "martial virtue" wouldn't be killing someone in the ring even if they had to. Not every fight goes to the ground (in MMA or in real life). Part of having a really good stand up game is knowing how to NOT be taken down. Watch some of Anderson Silva's fights. Yes, he's a great ground fighter in his own right, but in fights when he wants to stand and use muay thai, after guys start taking hits they try to take Silva down, and it's nearly impossible to do, and even if they do it he stands back up very quickly. Plenty of "stand up" fighters go into UFC and get taken down and have the shit beat out of them. And part of being a good fighter is being able to judge the situation. Just because you take someone down doesn't mean you are going to land on broken glass and get hit in the back with a baseball bat by his 16 friends..... I've taken guys down on the "street", and I've been taken down on the "street", and proceeded to choke them out accordingly, rather than flail about like some of the "stand up fighters" that laugh at MMA.

I would be very interested to see a "real" internal martial arts master go up against an MMA fighter. Oh, wait, that's right, it's the MMA fighter who has to find the "real" master and see it for himself..... "outside" the ring and "without the rules"..... No offense, but if you are just going to hit someone with your belly, does it matter if it's in a ring or on the street? And as a disclaimer, I have the utmost respect for high level martial artists, no matter what their background. I've been involved in martial arts nearly my entire life... but I find that you really need to be able to laugh at yourself, and seriously, some of the things that come up in martial arts discussion are..... laughable....

How is a belief useful? What criteria does a "useful" belief have? Under what circumstances are beliefs discarded? If truths are beliefs that are tested and found to be fact, and beliefs can be discarded, can "facts" be discarded as well? Perhaps the source of many peoples' problems and worries stems from their beliefs- possibly beliefs that, over time, they have found to be "true" and they cannot discard. Your maya may vary indeed. Haven't watched the videos (yet) but just wanted to throw some stuff out there for thoughts.

Agreed. I know, understand, and agree with everything you've said

Not everyone who doesn't act like James Randi has good gongfu.... Our manure pile isn't made of pieces of grain......

It could be argued they are two sides of the same coin..... or two faces of an object with many different sides to it. Again, you have to separate the more serious members from the teenagers with complexes (and in some cases adults with complexes...) I suggest you join the bullshido forum, read through the old threads, talk to some members, find out who is who. There was a thread not too long ago in which some guy was offering Brazilian Jujutsu correspondence learning DVD's to attain a black belt in gracie jujutsu in a couple of months. Sufficed to say, the forum nearly imploded, all the members were all over that. Chinese internal martial arts have also been the subject of a lot of research. There are old threads in which dozens, if not hundreds of videos have been compiled showing tai chi, bagua, and xingyi techniques being used in sanshou competitions. Every once in a while a new member will show up and attempt to trash IMA, and all the members will quickly flame him out of there. Their demeanor is a bit abrasive, but at heart they are good guys, and their motives are positive. For me at least, just because something isn't physical, and just because we can't seem to understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. HOWEVER, while I disagree with people like James Randi, and while I disagree with some (or a lot, depending on the situation) of what bullshido does, still, in the middle of everything they have a good point: you have to be able to experience it SOMEHOW. And, there is a distinction between saying, "you have to experience" and "I can make you experience it". Bullshido, by and large, doesn't care if it's something "you have to experience yourself". It's like having a dream. How do you prove to someone what dream you had last night? You can't really (well, maybe you can.... ) but in general, you just have to believe in the other person. The difference is when someone comes along and says, "my qi power can drop a 250 lb professional MMAist because they haven't developed the qi that I have." In that situation that person should back up their claims. ESPECIALLY if 1) they are charging (sometimes exorbitant amounts of) money, and 2) if they are teaching people who are acting under the assumption that these techniques will protect them from a life and death situation. That's when the bullshido fangs REALLY come out, when people start making claims. And if you aren't going to put up, shut up. People like Yang Luchan said his soft style of martial arts could defeat any adversary. And he got up on the leitai and proved it. He didn't sit there saying, "well my techniques would be too deadly to demonstrate on people." His son, Yang Banhou, was a little less nice, but still proved what he could do. Chen Fake didn't say stuff like, "well I can't use my full power against you because you could die", no, he used his soft power to defeat people without hurting them. I believe in qi, yes. I believe it is possible for qi to overwhelm someone to save your life. Do I believe people when they say that they can do it? I have to see it. Most demonstrations I have seen from "qi guys" have been quite pathetic compared to other styles of fighting. A few promising people failed to show at the last minute for whatever reason. Only a handful of people have really proven they have the goods. And if you can do it and are willing to do it to someone, there is no reason why you can't video tape it and put it on youtube. If you want to stay anonymous or keep your training for a select few students, stop bragging about it! Because if you make claims without backing it up, that's what it is, bragging, and trying to hype your school. Sorry if that seemed like a rant, I was writing it with the nicest possible intentions and the biggest smile while thinking of unicorns and fluffy bunnies And no that wasn't sarcasm Keep it real!

Bullshido is just like the Tao Bums. Yes, you heard that right, bullshido is just like the taobums. They have an overarching goal- to get REAL martial arts. Just like we here want real spirituality (and also real martial arts from time to time). There are many really good MAists on bullshido, who really care what they do, really know their shit, have done their homework, have trained with many teachers, have read many books, studied the history, and have been around the block many many times. Just like here, there are many accomplished practitioners who know what they are talking about. Bullshido has a certain atmosphere that attracts people who just like the "image" of bullshido. They want to be a bullshido bully, so will go around calling bullshit on things without doing the appropriate amount of work. They like to pretend they know what they are talking about, but really don't. Just like here. You have to separate the bullshido image, the common bullshido bully, and the dedicated bullshido member, just like you have to do with the taobums. And, just like with martial arts or spirituality, you have to keep a discerning mind. Just because many of us here study things that are not physical doesn't mean we have to throw all critical thinking out the window. Just like if a martial artist says he could be 20 MMA guys in a ring needs to prove it, someone who says they have attained some such powers or enlightenment should also be able to show some sort of proof of his accomplishment (even if it be in the way he or she acts on a day to day basis with other people). If they come up with some hundreds of reasons why they can't show how awesome their system is, well then their claims need to be taken with at least a little, you know, caution. And that's really the only thing bullshido is about (once you separate the bullshido from the bullshit), finding good instruction and the true "path", the true "tao", just like us here And for the record, I've seen the taobums listed several times throughout the months/years on various bullshido threads, many bullshido members have seen this site and are aware of our existence, we are far from a "sanctuary", but most of them don't care, they don't think a lot of this stuff exists, and know better than to come to a site dedicated to it to flame.. Of course, if any of us think we have a way to prove our stuff, then the bullshido guys will listen, after all: Quoted from the linked thread.