Sloppy Zhang

I found this one to be interesting, awareness watching awareness: http://albigen.com/uarelove/awa_instructions.aspx Then there are lots of various other kinds of ways similar to that. You can pretty much just sit and watch your thoughts arise, see where they go, see where they come from, see how they dissipate. Once you become familiar with how your thoughts work, you learn to become aware of when your thoughts start running amok. Then just "let go" of those thoughts. I guess each person is different, but everyone will find their own way of "letting go", be it with a visualization or with something else. Anyway, once you figure out a method that works for you.... keep using that method until you have tamed the mind! Or something

And I'm in between I see how this may be a valid point... but then again, "enlightenment" isn't like any other commodity out there. You can look at a business college and see how many business executives it produces, you can look at a football training program and see how many top football athletes came from the program, etc.... but with enlightenment... I mean, where do you even begin? "Hi, our four year program produces over 300 enlightened beings, with an extra 200 going on to enlightenment after two years of supplemental training." I mean, it sounds like some people think enlightenment is some quantifiable commodity just like any other. I mean.... are we going to start quantifying the Buddha and Jesus? It all seems like a very "modern" and business/materialistic way of quantifying things. But if we are to go by this dude's point, I daresay Kunlun becomes one of the most legitimate out there, as you hear of a couple students getting Golden Dragon Body, but then we run into the age old issue of whether GDB is the same as enlightenment, so what is enlightenment, and back to the quantifying problem then we have all the saints from Christianity, so screw qigong and meditation, and let's all go to Church!

In my experience do it whenever you can. I think about it as like, those ancient greek ships. If the wind is to your back, put up the sails and glide. If the wind is not favorable you gotta pull up your sleeves and row. Both get you to where you want to go. One might be easier/harder, then again, rowing gives you a good workout I happen to like meditating around 1 and 3, especially outside during the spring time (like how it is right now ) I'm a warm weather person, and after the winter is over I enjoy being out in the sun and in nature, and I use that chance to meditate and "be one with the universe". Didn't know there was any rule to it. Any "rules" for "when" to do things have always seemed more like guidelines to me..... then again, I do this stuff alone and from books

Over 9000.

That was a good explanation. Very interesting. Thanks!

Dunno where you got that impression from. I for one am refraining from ejaculating so that I can use my reserved jing to become immortal. So no circle jerking for me But, on a more serious note, do whatever you want. This forum tends to go through phases, ups and downs. Sometimes a hot topic gets touched on and people talk about that, then it subsides. Someone else comes up, that becomes the new hot topic, and there you go. Given the open nature of this forum, you get all kinds of opinions, some qualified, some not so much. And some topics have been beaten to death *cough*kunlun*cough*, so the most qualified and experienced people don't even bother posting anymore (or have stopped posting altogether), which makes it seem even WORSE for a newcomer. So maybe you should give it some time, cruise through the old threads if none of the new ones catch your eye, or leave, and come back in a month or two. Or don't come back at all. Whatever suits you.

*raises hand*

Haha, that was funny, thanks for posting that pie guy Though, you might want to ask... what would happen if someone DID claim that people got enlightened? There are a few higher level Kunlun students that I've heard have achieved the Golden Dragon Body. But there are plenty of people out to discredit Kunlun. Then again, not everyone can come to a consensus as to what enlightenment actually IS. Realization of your true Buddha nature? Finding emptiness? Being connected with everything at once? Levitating away in a ball of light? If you don't claim to be enlightened, you're a fraud. If you do claim to be enlightened, you're ALSO a fraud.

Maybe Max means Wu Wei.

Well from what I can tell, liberation/unification with higher consciousness/whatever is also the goal of Bardon's system. He just takes you slowly from where most people are now (totally unaware of what's going on in their body and in their minds), and takes them up gradually, so they cultivate certain things, before they are finally able to reach that point. There are certainly ways in which you can get sidetracked, "get lost in power" as many would say. Bardon (and Rawn Clark, who also provides some good commentaries) says that there are natural safeguards in the system, that people with certain intents will only reach a certain point. Don't know if it always works out that way or not. There are plenty of other systems that discourage getting involved in any type of things that could get you "lost in power". That's certainly one approach, I'm not saying one way is better than the other. It just depends. Do you want to stop and "smell the flowers" even though you know perfectly well that the flowers aren't REALLY there, and the flowers could actually get you lost and off the path, and that if you want to get to where you want to go you have to give up the flowers eventually, or do you just want to run straight past the flowers through to the other side while ignoring all the beauty and what you might find there? You could make another metaphor like, you are driving at a high speed down the highway, do you want to stop and look at a billboard for Hooters, knowing perfectly well that it's just a sign, and risk a high speed collision? Anyone can come up with any number of metaphors to make whatever their path is sound the best. It's up to you really.

I started on step 1 just recently. Will be working on step two maybe in a week or two (I've got a lot of stuff going on in life right now, so I'm just practicing what I can). I think it's kind of neat, I read ahead, not to practice, but to get a general idea, and it seems like a very interesting system worth at least a try.

This is all very interesting sounding stuff.... But isn't this all just at the lowest level? Yin/Yang, isn't it all just still the whole duality and judgment concept that we (Daoist, Buddhist, whatever), are trying to get OUT of? Aren't we trying to NOT make these distinctions? If there is a distinction, won't they become known through practice and all that? I dunno, most of it's above my head anyway

Are you talking "precious metals" as in western alchemy? Or are you talking about "precious metals" as in the kinds you could sell and make good money?

If you have some kind of issue with mjjbecker, then you should probably take it up directly with them.... I really don't see how this thread helps anyone in any way whatsoever. And for the record, no, mjjbecker has never struck me as annoying. This is a forum, everyone has their opinions. Especially given the nature of this forum, it's easy for someone to get riled up but.... given the nature of this forum, it's obvious that people aren't always going to agree, and you should try and let it go. But given the nature of this forum.... things will continue

Thanks Stigweard

For spontaneous practices in general.... Spontaneous practices can be found in a lot of schools. Reading through B.K. Frantzis' book (the Great Stillness), he mentions spontaneous movements in the context of bagua. He says it happens, usually after years of practice, and can really give you a boost. So the thing that he points out there is the "years of practice." Not necessarily because it's a super high level technique reserved for dedicated students and not taught to the uninitiated... but because in those "years of practice" you've developed a very good base for handling energy in your body so that it won't mess you up. Some people are naturally open, clear, calm individuals that can handle energy. Others... not so much. So spontaneous practices after strong foundations? Good overall. Spontaneous practices from the get go? Depends on the person.

So let me preface this a bit. I've been practicing zen meditation for a couple years (introduced to it via karate), and I've been working on B.K. Frantzis' stuff for a couple months now. Yesterday I started working with chakras. My friend has extensive experience with it, so he gave me some pointers, so I sat down and started to work on the first chakra. I wouldn't say I fully opened it, but I did find notice of it, nudged it open just a teeny tiny bit, then closed down and backed off of meditation. The rest of the evening I watched tv and did some homework. Now, at about 2 or 3 am I woke up this morning, I was lying on my back, and.... well, it felt like dozens of fingers were tickling me/touching me lightly around my groin, pelvis, and upper leg area (I'd say about four or five sets of hands worth of fingers). At first I thought I was coming under attack by something. I've experienced what I would call a "mental attack" (or maybe it was just me freaking out) before, and I've repelled it, but before banishing this feeling I tried to perceive where it came from. I tried to trace the fingers to a hand, to an arm, to a body.... but I couldn't. There didn't really seem to be anything beyond a hand, or at least, the "feeling", of a hand. So then I wondered if it came from an internal source, maybe I opened a chakra in my sleep? But I didn't really feel anything internal happening (then again I'm a noob when it comes to serious energetic stuff, so who knows). Then I thought back to a couple months ago, I was reading reports of hauntings and stuff, and one family mentioned that the mother and niece had woken up at night to feel like they were being groped by invisible hands. I chuckled and thought, "wow, I'm being molested by ghosts...." The thing was, it didn't feel sexual or arousing in any way. It was just in that area. But then I thought, maybe I attracted something with what I had started to practice? I thought about rolling around and trying to shake it off, but I didn't want to wake my roommate. So I just kind of chilled, and after about two or three minutes it stopped. Then I went back to sleep because, well.... I have class today, and needed my rest. I talked to my chakra friend about this, but he didn't really know. He mentioned that sometimes at night he'd wake up and feel a tingling/burning sensation in some chakra areas, but not like what I experienced. It didn't feel like the root chakra area... to be honest, it felt kind of like the second chakra area, but I've never done any conscious work with that one. Anyway, I have no idea. Does anyone have any clues/insights? Thanks.

Depends. Are you a seasoned mountain climber? Are you athletic enough to make those jumps? Do you have the experience and the tools necessary to climb up solid rock faces? If you fall and break your leg, to do you know enough about first aid to survive and get down to the mountain? Are you alone, or are you with a friend? That friend can help you if you are hurt and can help climb solid rock faces, whereas if you were alone you would require the tour people to provide aid should you need it. Have you ever been on a mountain before? Do you want adventure, or do you just want to casually stroll and look at the scenery? Do you want to get to the top, or do you want to hear what the tour guide has to say about history? Is the local a good person, do you trust them? The local might be a con who will rob and kill you as soon as you get off the beaten path, just because they are local doesn't mean they are nice. So many factors Don't know if anyone's heard of the poem "The Road Not Taken", by Robert Frost, it's interesting, and suggests that maybe the unbeaten path is worth the shot. But there's no reason why you can't be smart enough and use your head. If you've going to have to jump across jagged rocks and climb sheer rock faces, where there's a casual path that leads to the same spot.... well again, what's your goal, and what are the factors involved? Sorry for not giving a straight answer Still it's an interesting thought, and everybody thinks about something a little similar, I think, when choosing their path to take. It's not to say you're "more spiritually macho" if you take the path that involves lots of exertions. Not saying you're a wimp for doing what everyone else is doing. So... yeah. It's easy to glorify one and demonize the other path, but try not to do that, especially because this isn't a game (I'm not speaking to you individually vortex, I'm saying this as a general statement)

Thanks for the perspective

Well, I finally got the book, so I can finally make some more educated comments Not for me. I'm sticking with B.K. Frantzis' method and zen meditation. Although I must give props to Kunlun because it did help me understand my practices on a deeper level. While people have had some crazy experiences with Kunlun, I think they may result naturally in any system, just after years of preparation. Max says he wants to skip all the years of this, which is a double edged sword. On the one hand you can get people to a higher level faster. On the other hand, people get to that higher level faster. In Frantzis' method, for example, you spend a long time focusing on breathing, relaxing, grounding, dissolving, all that stuff. In higher levels you do encounter spontaneous movements, "downloads" from the universe, learning things no physical human ever taught you. But when that happens, you have years of foundations down to help you. So Max said in the old days when this happened to people they were told to leave for seven years (or something), to "figure it all out." That would have worked better in the old days because those people would have had years of preparation in how to deal with stuff. The average modern person who goes to a seminar and has freaky stuff happening to them has less methods of dealing with that stress to their system because they don't have those years of study (this is a generalization! I'm not calling anybody here a spiritual wimp ) So, like, when I'm reading instructions that say "sit in a chair and relax", well when I read that I start to do the relaxation techniques and stuff taught by Frantzis, which a student of the old days would have known (or known a technique similar). When you teach that stuff to a modern student, "sit and relax" doesn't carry the same weight. I think taomeow said something along the lines of "how do modern people even know what 'natural' is anymore?" Modern people don't even have the background necessary to know what "relax" even is! Their idea of "relax" might involve a poor, collapsed posture with tense shoulders and a craned neck. My posture has gotten a lot better since studying Frantzis' method because I've become more aware of what my body is really doing. If I didn't have that, just hearing "sit and relax" wouldn't nearly get me to where I am now. SO, I definitely think that Kunlun may be presenting some advanced stuff. Which again I say is good and bad. It depends on the person and their level of exposure to stuff prior to Kunlun (so like Trunk mentioned knowing what to do when visited by an entity, as opposed to a new person who might freak out a lot more). And that's where I'm at with Kunlun. Not a BAD practice.... just, maybe not for everyone? All the paths lead up to the top of the mountain anyway, I like the path that I was on, and now I'm getting back on that path and I'm going to keep walking. Eventually we'll all reach the same place, so see you guys there

Am I missing something....

Again, not a Kunlun person (will read the book today though!!!) but one thing I found interesting is that similar practices are found in other schools. (so even though you didn't ask me, I would say that yes it is possible to derive all the benefits associated with Kunlun) I was reading B.K. Frantzis book "The Great Stillness", and he talked about spontaneous movement (as he experienced it through taoist meditation and baguazhang): "The circle walking method of bagua is said to have originally come from the Kunlun mountains of northern Tibet. This primary moving meditation method involves walking in a circle... As a bagua practitioner becomes more developed both internally and externally, he or she can experience instances of spontaneous movement. In bagua language this phenomenon is called "when the dragon comes out of its cave." Spontaneous movement can happen while you are walking the circle. You may spontaneously start discharging energy in very powerful ways, doing movements no one ever taught you. You can have psychic experience of all kinds. Until I met my teacher Liu Hung Chieh, I had never actually experienced spontaneous movement in the context of bagua zhang... The source of these incredibly rapid yet flowing movements is the release of a human being's internal consciousness. In this process, your energy starts mixing with the energy in the surroudning environment and you can tap into the primal energies that give rise to each individual's physical existence." He then goes on to make the comparison between yoga, talks about three types of spontaneous movement: earth energy flowing up, heaven energy flowing down, and then simultaneous rising/falling which results in a mix. The full excerpt of his spontaneous movement bit is actually available on google books preview, pages 69-72. So, even though Kunlun as taught by Max seems to be kind of... well everyone has lots of opinions, similar movements and teachings exist in other schools. The main difference being that with Frantzis' spontaneous movement, it only happens after years of bagua practice, usually lasts for a short amount of time, then never happens again. (on the sample video on the kunlunbliss website, Max says something similar, about people "facing the wall" for 20 years, experiencing a little bit of bliss, then losing it) I believe several people have posted that these methods in Kunlun were the "advanced practices", and that in the old days people were just left to figure it out on their own. Of course, in the old days they would have had years of prior cultivation and practice to fall back on. In Frantzis' methods you have the longevity breathing, dissolving methods, and movements to clear blockages, so when one gets to the spontaneous movement, it's not as much of a shock. So maybe that could explain some experiences. But I dunno, I'll come back with my personal opinion of Kunlun in a couple of days, after I've had the chance to try it out myself

You know there's a mental disorder where you worry about if you have a mental disorder.

The thing is, I don't think there IS a pure water/fire method. I myself have been working through Frantzis' energy gates book. On kind of an intellectual level, I like his idea of "ice to water to gas". But in practice, it seemed really.... I dunno, I could never get the right feeling or intention. But then I thought about science courses I took when I was a kid, talking about temperature, then you think about cooking and stuff, I thought about the process that transforms water to gas. You have to get HOT to transform water to gas. I mean, all along I've had this "cool" thought in my head (temperature wise), about the "water method", and how "fire method" type of "heat" is bad.... but then I was like, wait a minute, you gotta get pretty hot to change water into gas! Then stuff really started happening to me. That's just kind of a personal observation that I found in my training. It's pretty general, and specific to myself, so it's not of those things you won't really find in a book, but something you find from personal practice. HOWEVER, Michael Winn wrote an article about the Fire vs. Water "debate", and he does bring up a good point, that you do need fire to turn water to gas. Even thought Frantzis talks about not "forcing" things like the fire schools, you do have to center your intention on a blockage and "work through it"... though not in a "burn it" way, but in a "dissolve" it way. But even then, it kind of blurs the lines.