Sloppy Zhang

The Chen style of Tai Chi was primarily made by a guy named Chen Wangting. Now there is some speculation and stories about a guy named Jiang Fa (I'm pretty sure that's what his name was), who's martial art background may have had some taoist internal focuses to it, but in any case, Chen Wangting and Jiang Fa were friends. Now, Chen Wangting was a soldier, so he was naturally familiar with martial arts schools taught in the military. The Chen family in the Chen village also practiced a few other Shaolin forms. Chen village is a short distance away from the Shaolin temple. It's also said that Chen Wangting was hiding in the Shaolin temple at one point as a refugee from some military people (some higher ups did some takeover, and even though he wasn't directly involved, he WAS a soldier from an older regime so... gotta lay low). Anyway, if you look at forms such as Taizu Long Boxing, you can see movements that look similar. If you look at forms like Little Red Fist, you can see similarities between Chen style forms, and even some Yang style forms. It would not surprise me that although Chen Wangting was good at martial arts, as he got older he probably wanted something that he could continue to do. Tone down emphasis on "brute strength" and raw speed, focus more on efficient movements, meeting with the opponent, leading them into the void and then striking them at a vulnerable point. I'm sure he also taught it so that even people who weren't soldiers (like the villagers) could still be able to handle opponents that were bigger. Though it is funny that Yang Luchan and pretty much most of the subsequent styles mention some kind of Daoist monastery practice, which means there is either more to the picture of Jiang Fa, perhaps there's more to the picture of the origins of Chen style (though Yang didn't learn from Wangtin, he learned from a later generation guy). Some have hinted that it was Yang Luchan's teacher that was a "rebel" from the "standard" Chen taiji and taught his own version. Then it's also been said that Yang Luchan was the one that did some outside training away from the Chen family (he had kungfu experience before learning Chen taiji). But then others have said it was Yang Luchan who changed it for teaching the outsiders. Anyway, oral traditions from masters lead to one story, written record and eyewitness accounts lead to another, so I'm sure the truth lies in between each account, perhaps mixing a little bit of both. In any case, the martial origins of Tai Chi are obvious. It was designed as an effective martial art. It used daoist philosophy to determine its strategies, but as scholars and martial artists will tell you, taiji is not the only art with "daoist" or "taiji" concepts. Full body power, relaxation, efficiency of movement, yielding to the opponent... these things are everywhere. But as has been mentioned, it was tai chi that was hijacked by the hippy jedi wannabes

Taiji was developed for combat. The creator was a soldier with combat experience. The Chen family used it to defend themselves and their homes, some of them used it in bodyguard duties. It was meant to be an affective form of combat. Efficiency of movement to generate power and using softness to lead a stiff opponent to his own destruction. NOW with the soft power, the efficiency, and the control of your opponent, YOU are empowered to decide what to do with them. And as minkus pointed out, that involves some moral responsibility on your part. If they come charging at you, you can "lead them into nothingness" then snap their arm. OR You can "lead them into nothingness" and just push them over. THAT is not really the art, as it allows both help and harm, it is the practitioner, and it goes into martial philosophy and things like that. Do you spare an opponent and hope they learn a lesson and grow, or do you eliminate the threat that came to eliminate you? Regardless, taiji is a very effective tool or weapon, and as always it depends on the user. Use your fajin to snap someone's joint or deliver a full body punch, or just use your softness and bounce them away.

Hmm, interesting. Normally when I meditate and my posture gets better (sitting up) I find myself moving from diaphragmatic breathing to reverse breathing, but then if I ease my shoulders down a bit or if I am sitting in a chair or going throughout my normal day, I go back to "normal" everyday breathiing... Okay, last question (thanks for being patient here guys): I heard that touching the tongue to the roof of your mouth connects the two channels at the top, what do you have to do to connect the channels at the bottom? I've heard a few people say somewhere that you should squeeze the muscles in the lower area to connect the channels as you exhale, so that the downward flowing energy doesn't flow out of the lower chakra, I've heard others say you should squeeze the muscles to get the energy going up, I've heard you should squeeze as it is going down and as it is going up, and all kinds of variations and stuff.... So what's the deal on connecting the channels at the bottom? And with the tongue, I've heard that the further back on your palette the better, is that true as well?

But see that's the thing though, from the conservative Christian point of view, if you really believe in God and accept him then you WOULDN'T continue your practice. The fact that you say you bow to God and continue your practice means that 1) the "God" you bow down to is not really the God of the Bible of *insert your Christian denomination* or 2) you are a liar. That's the point of view you are contending with. Oh, one other thing, a lot of people base their opinions on poorly done research, for example, some think that when you do qigong you summon up the devil, as opposed to learning to use the qi in your body. Anyway, whatever your chosen scenario, if you go up to them and explain what qigong is, they will respond, "no that is not qigong, qigong is devil worship." and you respond with, "no I practice qigong here is what qigong is." They WILL respond with, "no that is NOT qigong you are a liar and are trying to mislead people with your false teachings. Qigong is of satan." (again the above example can be used by replacing qigong with whatever else you want, the point is, if you try and explain what a topic really is, if it contradicts what they believe something to be, YOU are the liar). I'm not trying to bash anyone, but that is how it is.

Depends on how they read it... To make people happy, or to add something to their meal. Or it could be something else depending on the person Oh please, I would never imply either one of those.... or would I? The main thing that your wine analogy reminded me of was that scene in Fearless where Jet Li is talking about different types of tea and different types of martial arts. Tea exists as its own thing and it's really pointless to compare different types of tea. If the tea does what it is supposed to do then that's good. If a martial art does what it's supposed to do than that's good. If wine does what it is supposed to do then that is good. If you drink wine to get drunk and you get drunk, well there ya go. If you drink wine to savor the flavor and you savor the flavor, that's good. If you take martial arts to defend yourself and you can defend yourself, then that's good. The overall point though is that different people will be behind different things for different reasons, different types of MA, tea, wine, etc. You can't tell someone that they are right or wrong, because they each go to the thing that suits them. To you they are wrong (or perhaps just "less correct") and to them you are wrong/less correct. And again, as YMWong quoted, you're not going to get anywhere by debating the person about it

Yes but no matter your personal preference or your profession, each of the types of wine do their job

Yeah, I've seen sites and arguments like this before. At least some people try to do research, there are plenty of people out there that just go right into how qi is satanic devil energy and... yeah, it just gets messy. Yeah, it's rough when it gets political like that... "we are the only path to God/Salvation and all others are demonic".... yeah... but when you think about it it means that a LOT of people are going to be disappointed when they die And as for the points about powerful practices can be dangerous for someone who's not a grounded individual, totally agree. Yes, I guess it is in part the teacher's responsibility to make sure the student doesn't get over their head... but I also think it is in part the student's responsibility to realize, "hey, this isn't a game, this is serious cultivation." Be serious about it. Learn the risks. Learn the proper exercises. Do them the right way. Don't do anything you aren't ready for, if you have doubts about something... stop, give it time, maybe come back when you have matured a bit. And um... yeah. Generally be smart about it.

I don't remember the author that said this, but there is a quote by someone (kinda famous I think) who said that the best thing that people can do is speak from their own experience on what they know to be right at the time. Take some of the martial arts discussions that go on in this forum. The MMA people who have had experience in MMA know that it works, maybe they got into a street fight or saw a street fight and know it to be effective. However, there are TMA guys (myself included) who have done the same: either used it in a "real fight" or have seen it used in a real fight, as well as knowing people who have done so. So who's right? Both groups are right in accordance with their own experience. You aren't going to convince someone otherwise because they have the experience that proves their point. They saw a TMA "black belt" get beat up, or they saw some BJJ "master" get stomped out. Both people have what they need to make a judgment, so both are right... but both are wrong because the other person has experiences that are contrary to theirs That's where what YMWong quoted comes into play But as far as day to day scenarios, when you meet someone, the easiest way to end a conflict (or avoid it altogether) is to... not conflict with them. If there is no enemy there is no fight. When you recognize that they are right according to their own reasons, and you aren't going to change it, then you can accept it and both of you can move on with your lives

I see, thanks Now, when breathing, does one use normal breathing (inhale, stomach goes out, exhale, stomach goes in) or the reverse abdominal breathing? (inhale stomach in, exhale stomach out) I don't want to seem too nit picky... but I'd like to try and get it right while I'm just starting out

Hey, thanks for that link One question though, in the section where it talks about doing the microcosmic orbit in one breath, it says to let let the energy flow up on the exhale and down on the inhale... I thought that you brought the energy up on the inhale and let it go down on the exhale... but I might be mistaken Yeah, I'm not discarding the exercises I'm already doing, I'm just looking to add another dimension on top of the stuff I am already working on.

Thanks for the links pranaman and unconditional. orb, I like the zen meditation too, and it's not like I want to stop but... I dunno, I feel like I'm sounding like one of the "the grass is greener over there, really!" type of people, but I'd like to try and incorporate more energy/qi work. The exercises in the links look really good, and I'm definitely going to give them a try, but I'd also like to find something with a bit more Taoist lean to it, as it would fit in a little bit more with what I'm already doing, so I can build off of that. Does anyone know any beginner level taoist exercises? The microcosmic orbit is taoist, isn't it? Would that be okay to start with, or is there like, a pre-microcosmic orbit meditation? (sorry for the lame questions )

One guy I met said that he had a friend, and the reason she got out of the mainstream karate studios and went to more traditionalist kung fu schools is because some guy tried to mug her as she came down the stairs, and she went into spar mode. She hit the guy two or three times... but pulled at the last minute. He tried to grab her and drag her down, but that's when she readjusted and elbowed him hard in the face a few times before running away and calling the cops. But you always hear stories of this. I experienced it a bit myself after I stopped going to a mainstream karate dojo that I had been at for years. I really had to get over the reflex to just... not punch with full force.

If I recall correctly the wikipedia article on him mentioned a brief training in Wu style of Tai Chi, so that may have played into some of his later JKD concepts. But the majority of his foundation in martial arts came from Wing Chun, but he never finished the WC curriculum. He went back to his master to try and learn the rest, but was refused. So the basis of his JKD was WC, and he promoted lots of WC drills, but the upper level drills and exercises were his own creation. Obviously WC based, but obviously NOT WC. Which can be good or bad, there are lots of Wing Chun people who don't like Lee, but... yeah, moving on.... He studied a lot, studied human anatomy and pretty much any martial art that he could come in contact with, and he drew on a lot of those philosophies for his martial arts and stuff. There were some philosophical aspects to his stuff, but he distinctly says in a few of his books that when in a life or death situation philosophy aint gonna kick the guy's ass so.... take what you will from that.

Well as I just posed in the full lotus thread, I've gotten into the full lotus pose just a little while ago, and each day I'm working on it and getting more comfortable in it. I'm starting to get to the point where I can do some meditation in it, and some interesting stuff happened to me today.... I was sitting with my eyes half closed and just meditating, getting my mind clear... then poof, suddenly everything got bright! Like in my field of vision was my bed and a chair, but they were dim because my eyes were half closed, then got really bright, so at first I was like, yay. Because I've been reading a few places about flashing lights and stuff when you activate the third eye chakra and stuff, then I got really happy and tried to hold it and see where it went... then my knees started to hurt and my head started to throb (right behind my eyes actually), that's when I realized something..... When your eyes are focused on something stationary for a long time, it stops putting them in your vision, like, they blank out, because they aren't moving and adding new information, so your mind kind of forgets them, but if you move your eyes they come back to normal... so yeah when I moved my eyes everything went back to normal.... yeah not as exciting as I originally thought Also, tai chi introduced me to reverse breathing (stomach expands when you breathe out, ya know), so after the "almost third eye" fiasco I went back to just normal meditation. You hear different views on what different people think is the way to breathe, normal vs. reverse, I practice both depending on what I'm doing. So anyway I started out with normal breathing in sitting meditation. Then I started focusing on my dan tien and drawing the breath to the dan tien on my inhale, and I noticed that, when doing normal breathing, the air would go in, but if I kept inhaling I'd end up drawing in my stomach and taking in more air, then exhaling and it would turn into reverse breathing... which was neat. So, I guess that was partly to share, and partly to ask if anyone else's vision has gone kinda crazy during meditation, but for a not-as-super-as-you-might-have-hoped reason.

I guess. I've been meditating for a while now, but nothing too exciting ever really happens.... I think that was the most exciting but even then it's not that exciting

I used to not be able to do full lotus at all. I started to do some stretches and stuff like that, then one day I slipped into it.... then about 3 seconds later was unfolding myself I'm working up every day though, I'm up to about 2 or 3 mins. I'm trying to do some mini meditations in lotus position now that it's at least there for a couple mins, regulating breath and trying to relax even further, which helps prolong the time in the pose, yadda yadda. It's cool

Don't underestimate the power of personal reflection and contemplation. Yes, practice the basics... but as you practice think of the theory. I had some personal revelations as I was thinking about the theory of taiji, did one or two moves just for the heck of it... then realized WHY. I was like, "haha, it makes so much sense!" I got so happy, and that pushed me to actually start looking at things MORE in depth. So sometimes it's not about acquiring new stuff as it is looking into the nooks and crannies of what you already have. And I will say that in a perfect world the teacher will tell you everything you need to know in order to advance. Maybe your teacher has done that and you just didn't get it, or maybe your teacher is just a bad teacher and hasn't done that, I don't know your teacher and I don't want to judge, but whatever the case is, the art itself is deep enough that someone willing to uncover it will find it, at least in my experience.

It's not just about YOU using them, but it's about the other guy using them, and you planning ahead. If you normally train with things off limits, then when you get into a "real" fight you start to think, "okay, now this isn't a ring, what can I do, what can he do..." you have to think about thinking about what he's going to do. When you train with the "anything goes" mindset, you train in being aware of what he could have in his pocket, or what he is standing next to, or where you are standing. If you have to think about the extra stuff, that's added time that detracts from where your attention SHOULD be (the fight and other things going around), and slows reaction time. It might not slow it a lot. A good athlete may be able to make up for it... but you know, when your balls are on the line (literally!) do you really want to risk it? In 95-99% of the encounters you will have (and some people NEVER get into fights, so the chances of being in an encounter are low to begin with), do you really want to risk that being the 1% time that something comes out of nowhere and you get crippled/killed? I do not want to risk it. If you think it isn't such a big deal... well I guess that it's your decision to make.

Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi talks about this quite a bit. A sniper dozens of feet away is going to kill you as soon as he gets you in his sights. The guy aiming to stab you as you go up a flight of stairs is going to stab you in the back. The guy who rigs your car to explode as soon as you turn the ignition is going to kill you as soon as you start your car up. You can't really train to handle these situations... well, you can't physically defend against them anyway. As for adrenaline dumps and stuff... I guess it comes from experience and training. If you have been in fights before and have the experience, on the street in the ring or whatever, then you are less likely to get as lost as someone who hasn't. I have my thoughts on the effectiveness of ring MMA on the street, but it DOES give experience in being in a situation. Now as long as the person stays AWARE of where they are (awareness is always a must anyway), then he/she can definitely use their MMA training to handle it, not getting too caught up in things, not worrying, knowing what they can/can't do, knowing how to respond to changes in the body, etc. Now, you can acquire this same skill by NOT training in MMA. A link was already posted to some koryu training. Someone who's had a rough life also knows how to deal with this. And wudangquan, as you pointed out, there are some people who by their very nature/cultivation may be able to handle themselves... read: MAY. So, eh, you know, there are a lot of factors involved.

Obviously it's a plot of the illuminati. All part of the plan for world domination and the enslavement and death of the human race: http://www.endgamethemovie.com/ (a freaked out person sent me that link an hour before I even saw this thread... coincidence?)

That was an awesome article. Seriously orb, you should read it. That kind of traditional training is what traditional martial arts are really about. REALLY real. I was bored today and browsing through youtube and found this vid: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=0BxUmNOyeCw Pretty short vid, starts off with some guys trying to pull a prank, but it ends up in a fight. It's pretty obvious that the guy with his head down keeps trying to attempt a takedown. The problem? The guy he's trying to take down has his back to a wall, there's nowhere to take him down! You can see for yourself how the video ends.... I'm not saying that BJJ is bad. I'm not saying that there is some invincible art. PEOPLE, however, get into a false sense of security that their techniques work. The military thinks that teaching gracie jujutsu will be good because it is proven to be effective... but here we have a trained marine that can't put it to use when a joke escalates. People get so sucked up in style and all this stuff, they miss the forest because of the trees. They are so preoccupied with "I know BJJ' or "I know Wing Chun" that they miss the obvious. It's like intelligent people with no common sense

I wasn't here a year ago, I can't really compare.... Though the major threads when I came here involved that guy who was advertising his own system, I think his name was Li Jiong? It was a super long thread about stuff way over my head, I didn't pay much attention to it... Other then that there seem to be a lot of threads about semen retention and abstinence... which was cool I guess because that's kind of the point where I was, getting more serious about self cultivation and the like. All in all though it's pretty good. I've looked through a lot of past discussions and there have been some really good ones, I really like this forum and I'm glad I joined

How do I get a girlfriend? How do I get money? Or more importantly: how do I get a really rich girlfriend? But on a serious note... um... how do I get immortality? How do I get super powers? How do I get a rich girlfriend? How can I become a master of my own body and spirit?

How do I integrate my interest in cultivation with my study at the university level and later on in my career. Sometimes I feel like I'm branching off in so many directions. I have the things I am interested in, the things "society" "wants" me to do, the things I have to do for said society, the things I do for myself, etc etc... it just builds up, I want to try and line them all up, but they're totally different things

I used to be a very... um... active person... but recently stopped, working on the retention thing. It's hard for a while, immediately after you stop. I'd say a week or two after it is the hardest thing, but I guess what makes it harder is when you keep thinking about it. You really can't just change your physical habits, you have to change your mental habits as well. You've got to realize what base desire is and how it really doesn't even fulfill a purpose. Love between who people is a good thing (IMHO), lusting after someone for mere physical satisfaction really doesn't get you anywhere and doesn't elevate you above the status of... well... an animal I guess. If you change your physical patterns, but not your thoughts, you will revert back. Once you change your thought pattern, even if you try to physically do it, you won't be going anywhere and you'll eventually stop. You pretty much just have to ask yourself what you really want, where you want to be on your journey, how far you want to progress and whatnot.