Sloppy Zhang

I'm a big fan of B.K. Frantzis' book "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body". Very comprehensive exercises that you can integrate from beginner to expert level.

I'm not really down on my Fu style, but is this the Fu style that we're talking about, starting with Fu Zhen Song? By "precursor", you mean "comes first in training", not "came first historically", right? This all seems to come from Fu Zhen Song, who seems to have created Liang Yi Quan. In which case, it seems that this is a training order specific to the Fu style to slowly build up the practitioner, and get their body trained to various levels of intensity in movement, so that way they don't injure themselves by practicing. So they've got Tai Chi, which is pretty relaxed and straight forward. Liang Yi takes this, and builds up some more twisting movement and some more action, and then it culminates in Bagua, which probably puts the most stress on the body, and might be damaging to the body if not trained correctly (and in Fu style, they may build up the body by doing Liang Yi and Tai Chi, but in other styles, for instance, the mixed Xingyi and Bagua styles, they may build up the body by doing Xingyi, and in styles mixed with Tai Chi, they'll build up the body using Tai Chi, and in pure Bagua styles, they'll have their own unique training methods!) But please understand, if I am correct in reading from the right sources, this is a training method specific to the Fu style, and is not necessarily the way that the founder, Fu Zhen Song learned. Fu Zhen Song probably took what he knew and made a training program which he thought was best for beginning students to go from beginner to advanced with the least risk of harming their bodies. Fu Zhen Song didn't learn it this way. He seems to have come up with it after the fact based on what he thought would be most effective for beginners to build upon. Other martial arts lineages have different ways of training the body in preparation for correct practice. If you've already got a practice and already got a lineage, and are already seeing results, there is no need to drop all of that and restart based on the training method of someone else. You've obviously got your own training method from your own style to build up the body, learn to walk correctly, etc etc etc. The Fu style has their own method to build up the body, move correctly, etc. The Yin style Bagua has their own method. Xingyiquan has their own method. Xingyiquan that is mixed with Bagua has their own methods (which may differ from the pure Xingyi schools). Chen tai chi has their own methods, which may differ from the Yang and the Wu styles. If you've got a teacher teaching you how your lineage does things, and you're getting results, it'd be silly to start over right from ground zero just because someone from another lineage does their progression a bit differently.

"Confirm"? Hmm... "confirm". Well, if your threshold for "confirmation" is that you read on an internet forum someone saying "trust me, I've seen this happen, I know it's real", then IIH is your best bet, if you want to try and do it yourself. That I know of, anyway. There are probably other options, but none so accessible and easily laid out as IIH. You could try and go for something more exotic, but then you're talking hundreds-thousands of dollars and hundreds-thousands of hours penetrating some foreign culture and forging personal relationships in the hope that they'll decode their mysticism.

I dunno, I came from a working household. Dad didn't get back 'till 8 or 9 at night, mom didn't get back till 6 or 7 at night. Mom made dinner because she got home first, and if she waited around for dad to get home, no one would be eating dinner (including her and the three kids). Of course, whenever the vision struck her for how the plants in the yard had to be moved, it was dad (and me and my brother ) doing the grunt work The takeaway from my parents was that it's got to be an equal and mutually agreed upon division of labor. So, yeah, they were doing "stereotypical" things, but they didn't consider their work to be stereotypical, because the breakdown was always even and they worked it out. So I guess I'm less offended by the things being done, and care more about how things got to be the way they are. So if the aspiring Bardonite does have a wife cooking dinner, it better be equal and fair all the way around Yeah, a lot of the exercises in his book do start out with a five minute marker, or one or two minutes, and then you're supposed to build up. Really, the going is pretty slow, but it's to build a foundation.

Here's what I have gathered from B.K. Frantzis' writings... The circle walking meditations and qigong work of Bagua were what they have been doing in Taoist monasteries for thousands of years. If you were to climb up a mountain and be accepted into the monastery, after they'd tested your mettle in whether you could handle the training, and whether you could basically physically do the movements involved, they'd start teaching you how to walk, how to hold static arm postures, and then proceed to teach you the single palm change, which was pretty much the basis of the meditation that they did in the monastic tradition. At this point, let me mention the different schools of Bagua (at least connected to B.K. Frantzis). No one really knows where Dong Haichuan learned his circle walking. He always said he just learned it from two monks in the mountains. He combined it with what he knew of martial arts, and started teaching. When he taught, he only really taught students who were already great martial artists (Yin Fu in Luohan Chuan, Cheng Ting Hua in Chinese wrestling, etc). He'd adapt circle walking to their styles, and help them come up with different techniques. This is where most of the Bagua schools around today are coming off of- the students of Dong Haichuan. Frantzis' last teacher, Liu Hung Chieh, studied some of these bagua methods (studying with the Cheng family directly, if I recall correctly, but since at that time everybody was training with everybody, he also trained with one of the Ma people in the Yin style- but back in those days, the "styles" hadn't really coalesced into what they are today). But he also, after studying Buddhism, went to a Taoist monastery to learn Taoism, and there he learned their circle walking meditation method. Liu Hung Chieh was convinced that this circle walking method, or at least one very similar to it, was what Dong Haichuan originally learned, and which he started to implement martially. Of course, this walking method wasn't for martial arts per se. It had highly advanced qigong cultivation, which, yes, could translate into martial strength. But really it was about giving you a foothold into meditation. Frantzis really likes Bagua, and thinks it is the most sophisticated of the internal martial arts, involving spirals and twists and dynamic motion that is just not found in Tai Chi and Xingyi (not to say that the other two don't do what they do really well, he just maintains that Bagua goes places that they don't even start to touch on). When Frantzis says that Bagua is the only "pure Taoist" art, he's referring to the monastic tradition of the Bagua circle walking, which predates Tai Chi and Xingyi by hundreds, if not a thousand years. The martial bagua traditions had varying degrees of Shaolin influence, and retained or lost varying degrees of their original Taoist meditation influence. Some practitioners didn't care, and just wanted martial power. Now it should be mentioned that other arts can be adapted to have the higher level meditations. Liu Hung Chieh did that with the Wu style Tai Chi that he learned with the founder of the Wu style and his family. They actually went and paired it with specific meditations to produce meditative effects similar to pure taoist arts. But not all Tai Chi styles are like that. Not to get too much of a tangent, but Tai Chi history is pretty interesting as well. The main line of it coming from the Chen village had it as a mix of various Shaolin arts. Basically, for 7 or so generations the Chens were known as great fighters. One of the Chens was involved in a losing military/political battle, and sought refuge at the Shaolin temple. There he met with people and learned some Chinese medicine, and decided to adapt his art in such a way as to be in line with the health principles, but at the same time generate power. So at least from that angle, it was never meditative at all, per se. It was just trying to get the best bang for your buck without screwing up your body. Now there are one or two figures in the Chen family history that some say are responsible for injecting a Taoist/meditative/Wudang/whatever influence. I haven't researched much about that, or where the non Chen village Tai Chi arts came from. But that's a huge tangent... Basically, the training order heavily depends on what lineage you are coming from, and what that lineage teaches. I have no idea about the lineage that you are training from or where this guy is training from. It may very well be that the way they teach it, their Tai Chi teaches stuff that they later incorporate into how they do Bagua. And it may work wonderfully for them. But as far as I can tell, historically, Bagua has always been on its own and doing its own thing. It can be physically more challenging than other internal arts, so from that perspective, you may need to get used to moving a certain way in other arts before tackling bagua. But if you can handle bagua and are getting results (!) then don't feel pressure to do something some other way. Sources: All of Frantzis' writings that are publicly available, including the material on his website, The Whirling Circles of Baguazhang by Frank Allen (the intro gives a very great breakdown of how all the Bagua lineages got their start, who was cross training with who before the styles got more or less hammered out, and where Liu Hung Chieh was at that time), random internet sites concerning Tai Chi I magically discovered by internet coincidence, and various forum posts from forums I've perused about the subject (because, you know, before I get involved in something, I like to do a background check, check the lineage, and see if they are who they say they are, and what exactly that means).

That'd be great, if, after ten years, you want your smart phone to become your enlightened phone

Those who don't live by the sword also die by the sword. And plenty who wield swords die happy of old age in their beds surrounded by loved ones. Guess the world is just fucked up like that. Yeah, um, this is a perfect example of the mental gymnastics that people have to go through to convince themselves that they are happy and content when they are clearly powerless and destitute. Of course, reality is a cold slap in the face, so most people would much prefer to spin it in such a way that they have all the power. You know, rather than admitting that they are repeatedly violated up the behind by an authority that they hate and despise. But if you flip it around so that YOU are the one in power of the one doing the violating... well, you aren't really being violated, are you? Except you're still a slave fucked up the ass at the whim of others. I said something to this effect in another thread- don't feed me shit and expect me to like it. Don't feed me shit and expect me to think that just because it's the only food I've ever had, that somehow it makes it good. Don't feed me shit and tell me to just "accept it", because there isn't any other option, and then tell me that eating that shit somehow empowers me. And don't say all of that while the shit that I'm eating is coming from someone who doesn't have to eat shit, and who is in fact living a great and wonderful shit free existence, while forcing me to eat their shit. Not my cup of shit. But whatever. You can be spiritual without having to carry on eating shit.

Who said he didn't make the dinner Love the assumptions people have about what I wrote I figured people would focus on certain things, so when I wrote that part I wrote them a certain way... but damn, people are pretty fixated on it But seriously, though: Initiation Into Hermetics was published in 1956, and then published in English in 1962 (Bardon died in 1958). So Bardon is writing for that timeframe/culture. When he talks about spending about 20 minutes on the exercises daily, he's making them so they fit into that kind of "routine".

As the story goes, he was a highly evolved and accomplished teacher who was, by the will of divine providence, placed on this earth to reveal to the human world the first four books of the tarot (the first being represented by The Mage tarot card- Initiation Into Hermetics, the foundation of magical practice, which, by the end of the training, will have provided the initiate mastery over the four basic elements on the physical, astral, and mental spheres... three books of his were published- Initiation Into Hermetics, The Practice of Magical Evocation, and the Key to the True Kabbalah... the fourth one was being worked on, but the recorded tapes of him speaking were confiscated when he was taken by the Russians). We only really have highlights of Bardon's life, and not a whole lot in between. It's not clear exactly how he came by his impressive skills. Some maintain that he really was a higher spirit incarnated. Others maintain he was just a really brilliant guy who studied lots of occult methods of the time, and then condensed them into one single training manual. No matter where each accounts say he learned from, they all agree that he was a practical working magician, and that he was able to show feats not only of a magically adept nature, but also of a very spiritual and compassionate nature. An interesting article on some of these subjects and more is written here. My dear Apech, who ever said that nothing happened between those two points? For someone reading between the lines, there's quite a big space in there for all kinds of things to go down

Let's define some terms before this gets crazy.... When I, sloppy zhang, say things like "seeking power" and "what's wrong with power(s)", I'm referring to things like siddhis. Feats of masters of energetics. Fireballs, flying, psychic powers, invincible physical form, yadda yadda yadda yadda. Abilities whose nature may stretch or outright defy our modern scientific view of what should be possible for a human. So in that sense, you can gain much knowledge and wisdom and internal cultivation personal "power" by sitting and meditating all day, but if someone were to kick down your front door and stab you, you'd be "powerless" to do anything, or at least, you'd have no better shot than the average human being in your position. In that sense, you can also have much "power" and, yes, be emotionally/spiritually/personally crippled by a whole shitstorm of personal psychological/emotional traumas and issues. I don't think power (as in, siddhis/abilities/etc) are mutually exclusive to knowledge/wisdom. I don't think that seeking them is an indicator of any inherent internal/personal issues. No, seeking them won't make you a more cultivated individual. But by the same token, seeking them won't lessen your cultivation.

And yet, at a certain point, you've got to actually have something. I feel, at least around these parts, many many many practices build up the knowledge/wisdom. But where the rubber meets the road... mmmm, different story. Some got it but won't show, some won't show because they don't got. It reminds me of my McDojo karate school. They taught all the forms, got all "mystical" and everything with chi... but then, when in actual sparring practice, they just used watered down kickboxing! One day an actual kickboxer came in and cleaned the whole place out. He wasn't stronger or faster than the other blackbelts there. He just actually did kickboxing. To him, everyone else was just a cheap imitation with worse technique! Forget the fact that the kickboxer was a dick, and the teachers of the school were basically good people just trying to make their way in the world. But for all the "knowledge"/"wisdom" they may have held, even though they may be "using what they had", in the face of someone who had a better power developing practice, they failed. It seems to me like a lot of teachers treat people who are looking for "power" as immature thrill seekers. But I think there are quite a number like Cat Pillar. They've been around the knowledge/wisdom track, and are thinking "okay, great... how do I DO it." I'll use another example from my karate days (damn, what a formative time ) One of the teachers was going "okay, this is how we don't fight in karate", then he shows a bunch of moves that are basically dirty boxing. I look at all the blackbelts leaning in, wide eyed. And the teacher goes "but you all know all that, that ain't smart." And one of the black belts went "hey, I don't know that, show us some more of that." I mean, that actually looked like fighting. But the teacher said "no, that's not how smart people fight. In karate, we fight smart, from a long range." Yeah, then the kickboxer pretty much dirty boxed his way through all the black belts who just learned how to fight "smart". Riiiiiight. Sufficed to say, I left that karate school, and that's what got me into more reality based/MMA training. The point is, there's a time for philosophy. There's a time for knowledge. And there's a time for getting the muscle to back it up. In my opinion, a legitimate lineage has both. People who are all about power are scary and they can be pretty unstable and they can be dangerous and unnerving to be around. They'll teach you some scary effective shit... but it's a fine line between staying long enough to learn the next cool thing, and staying so long they decide to trying the next cool thing on YOU. People who are about the knowledge and wisdom at the expense of power, I think, are living in denial. It's a dogma that they repeat to themselves over and over again until they believe it. But I've seen many people, some who have spent quite a long time in those "knowledge" paths, actually seek out some kind of dangerous "power" paths because they are looking for the "muscle" to back up their words. I think Cat Pillar is one of those people. You get on a knowledge/wisdom track, and then you go "well hold on... WHY aren't I looking for powers again?"

Uh oh, do I need to break out my thesis on Anakin Skywalker? Them's mighty big words, to say things like "you should just learn not to value those things you might lose". Especially when people have friends, parents, siblings, children, etc around. If you found out your kid had an incurable illness, and then heard that there was some "power" out there that could cure it, well then what? What if you HAD that power? What if someone you knew had that power, but wouldn't use it? Or wouldn't teach it? Or would teach it? Or would use it? I see nothing wrong with trying to get power to protect. "Fear". What a buzzword. So much meaning and associated content attached to the word "fear". When you say someone has "fear", you are saying they are weak. They may be in denial. Can't cope with reality. Looking for an escape. And excuse. Is that it though? What's the use of fear? It reminds you to be cautious. It reminds you to know of your limitations. Plan ahead. Map out all of the exits. Know the terrain. It motivates you to grow. So when you are afraid, what are you going to do- Train yourself to not care anymore so when you lose something, you don't care? That ain't hard to do. Numb yourself down enough, you could have your wife and kids raped and murdered before your very eyes and you wouldn't bat and eyelash- if you were even aware that that's what was going on. If you can't be bothered to work yourself into that state unaided, there are plenty of drugs which can help you get there. Then what? What does that do? There is power to prevent that from happening. There is power to retaliate. There is power to proactively stop. What are you going to chose? To what end? Why? Why not? So many ways it can go.

Yes, come to the dark side! Bwahahahahahahahaha! But no, really, I find it an interesting question. I've always been on the lookout for power. I got into spirituality just because I wanted magic powers to impress the ladies other things happened, cultivation helped other things, other things impressed the ladies, yadda yadda, but I still am looking for power and stuff. I find it poses very interesting questions. If you could truly do things with no strings attached.... would you do those things? We have so many limits, physical laws and social laws which bind us. Social conditioning which tells us "don't do this or something bad will happen to you". But if you had the power to get away with that... WOULD you? You could only know if you had the power to do so! I'll give you an anecdote from when I was playing with the powers of manifestation- I was at the grocery store and wanted a certain bag of chips. All out. Damn. I decided to try manifesting a bag of chips. So I'm walking through the store. Going to get some laundry detergent- well what do I see? A bag of the chips that I wanted surrounded by various other items. It seems like somebody got to that point, decided they didn't want those items, and just left them on the shelf. I got there before one of the workers could put it in its right place. So here's the question: did I control anybody?. SOMEONE had to put that bag of chips there. SOMEONE had to have decided they didn't want it. But here's the mind blowing thing about it- that event very well could have happened before I even arrived to find the chips were out, before I even intended for that bag of chips to exist. Crazy. Freaked me out. That and some other events made me decide that I wouldn't get involved in any of that unless I could control every aspect of the energy going into a situation, because I'm really not all for manipulating anyone or anything like that. To date, the best system I have found and one which teaches control and professes to get you to that level is Bardon's "Initiation Into Hermetics". From the other thread, it seems you're familiar with that. Maybe you should give it another look Anyway, the whole power thing... eh, if you are in it for the wrong reasons, you aren't going to go through all the training it takes to get the power that you want (at least, the right way). So that in and of itself is a sort of a safeguard. I see it as a tool. There are good people and bad people out there. Good mystics and evil sorcerers. All that stuff that exists in all of those stories. If there are bad sorcerers out there, it means it's not about being good or bad to have power, right? It means the determining factor lies elsewhere.

Twenty is an exaggeration. 10 years is the usual approximation to get you to step 8. Steps 9 and 10 are full on freaking uniting with the cosmic universal god consciousness, resolving everything about your being past, present, and future, and basically becoming a deity unto your own self (in the sense that you bind with universal consciousness/god/whatever you want to call it). Enlightenment in the fullest sense. On top of that, the 10 year estimation is for the average person with a job and family life, someone who spends about 20-40 minutes on the exercises a day. Basically, working man comes home from work, greets the wife, plays with the kids, eats dinner, tucks the kids in at night, he sits in his comfy chair, reads the paper for a bit, maybe a book, relaxes, leans back, does some meditations for 20-40 minutes, gets up, then gets into bed with the wife, then back to sleep for work the next day. On weekends or holidays, throw in an extra 20-40 as he reclines in the sun or by the fire. THAT'S the framework. Do that every day, and in 10 years, you'll have something. Just doing an hour a day is more than twice Bardon's suggestion. Of course, keep in mind the old zen story- the harder you work, the farther off you'll get Slow and steady wins the race. And in the long run, chances are that the person who takes it 20-40 mins is going to progress faster than someone who tries to do it for 1-2 hrs at a time, burns out, quits, tries again, burns out, quits, etc etc etc etc.

What do you mean? It's still called "covering your ass" You really can't.... most of the time(?) There was one girl I knew in high school. She was pretty sharp and self aware, but her boyfriend was a dick. Across many of our conversations about philosophy and society, etc etc, she started to get what other people were doing, calling them out on asshole-ery, and one day had an epiphany that her boyfriend wasn't worth the effort, broke up with him, and totally changed her dating pattern through college. But she's the only person I know of personally who's done it. I guess other people do it, you hear about them. But I've only met one in real life. You mean like "it will get you laid" and "it will get you stuff" in a more general sense? I've got a nice theory stemming from traumatic childhood experience that, modern society devoid of natural predators for assholes only serve to create more assholes. This is a bit of a tangent but... what the hell I was bullied by kids much smaller than me as a kid. No amount of "proper channels" helped one bit. I socked the kid nice and hard, and never had any problems. Concurrently, the bully never bullied anyone else, and grew up to be quite a fine young man! But being an asshole gets you laid. Being an asshole gets you the job. Being an asshole gets you to the front of the line. Because really, what's going to happen? In "polite society" it ain't like someone is going to hit you/beat the crap out of you/kill you. And even if someone tries that, oh, you call the cops and tell them some dude freaked out on you for cutting in line. Since when is it against the law to be an asshole? So being an asshole is protected by law, there are plenty of very attractive women who'll be very open sexually for you due to your asshole-ery (to which many falsely label as "confidence", though you do have to be pretty damn confident in a certain sense to be an asshole), and you'll quite frequently get the job by being an asshole (again, by people, usually assholes themselves, attributing that to your "confidence"). Want a better society? Introduce natural predators for assholes Because, really, there isn't that big of a downside to being a total dick.

Nope. But it ain't about being PC, is it? It's about telling it like it is. It might not be nice to hear, but a LOT of chicks go for douchebags/jerks/assholes. Yes, even the "nice girls", the girls who say "I hate guys like that" and "I'd never date someone like that", well guess what? They would, and they do. And if you ask them about it, they'll give you a million reasons like: "well he was just like that that one time" "well he was just having a bad day" "well he's not like that to me" "well we aren't really 'dating'" "I'm going to break up with him anyway, so I don't care" "I just date him because his dad can get me a job" "I just date him to get into nice clubs" blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Never underestimate the ability of the human mind to rationalize a situation to make itself look good. Standard disclaimers about posts apply. I'm only speaking from my experiences, which is only about 22 years. Only really talking about girls between 14 and 24, non-cultivating and in general very attractive.

This.

Muthafucka just spit in the fuckin' mall! (1:13) One of two things can happen- 1) He impresses some chick because of how much he just doesn't care 2) He seriously pisses off some guys who beat the shit out of him Seeing as how this isn't a video of him getting the tar pounded out of him, some chick off camera was secretly impressed

You are assuming that this person learning on their own is not actively going out and engaging in fights, working out techniques and discovering principles on their own.

Um, if he says that, then it means even more that it's just his opinions. And readers are left to determine for themselves if they find Scotty a credible source, and how much weight they should give to his views. You need to deal with your issues/demons surrounding the internet and (warning: sneaky rhetorical trick of making the other guy look bad by aligning me with the side of freedom and truth...) free speech and the unimpeded flow of knowledge, facts, and fiction. Yes. It's called you can find every view under the sun. You can find what supports you and what challenges you. It is the ultimate act of responsibility: to believe or not believe what you read on the internet. Do you stop and believe what you see? Do you research it? Do you follow up with other sources? That is a very heavy responsibility that is put on the reader. Some people can't handle that. Some people get crushed by the burden. Right. Because in real life when someone is being a narcissistic prick we.... wait, what DO we do in real life? There are laws against punching people for being narcissistic pricks. So......... what are you trying to say? Yeah they would. "I heard of this new teacher called Max." "I heard he took techniques from Jenny Lamb without crediting her." "No way, I trained with him in a seminar, he wouldn't do that." "He would, I saw his hard drives." "Take that back!" "No, I saw it!" *punch* What exactly are you fantasizing about in your mind's eye, 5ET, of this glorious face to face conversation? Because it would go down exactly as it went down here. Minus the punching. Maybe that's it? Maybe you feel like you lack intellectually in a debate mode, but you feel that in real life your "warrior's spirit" would come across and scare away all the narcissistic asswipes before their wipe could ever meet ass? I really don't know, I'm just brainstorming whatever is coming to mind. Witch can make people have wet dreams from a distance. Since you know Scotty so well, maybe you should learn how to do it from her, and cause him to lose all of his jing or something? Again, what exact is the scenario going on in your mind right now? That you would overwhelm pathetic weaklings with your warrior's aura irl? But since they are safe from your menacing presence, they have a false sense of confidence? Because, you know, I don't know if you've ever had any real life encounters with insufferable fucktards. But I have. And they have a supreme amount of confidence from this thing called "the law", which says if you hit them first, you can be charged for assault. Which gives them a loooooooot of leeway to say whatever unverified opinion they want to shit out of their mouth at the time. Maybe you have a thunder wizard technique to make them crap their pants if they are within 15 feet of you and can maintain eye contact for at least 3 seconds. If you do, I would love to learn that. Because that would be an AMAZING skill to have. If not, then you are romanticizing this "face to face" conversation in your mind, potentially to make up for your failings in your ability to deal with online conversations. In which case, that's an issue that I think you should look into. Perhaps ask yourself why you are manifesting failed internet communiques, and figure out how you can manifest positive ones?

Can everyone +1 this post?

You've also set up anyone who disagrees with you to look like a total asshole who thinks it's okay to gang up on a kid and call them a bastard But I'm going to highlight something you said: As a warrior one should practice discernment. People who are involved in life or death situations on a regular basis know that talk is cheap. A warrior must be able to discern if someone is a talker, or if that person poses a serious threat. Reacting seriously to a non-serious threat can be just as bad (if not worse) than not reacting seriously to a serious threat. If your lineage is what you say it is, then it is not a child, it is not a baby. It is a set of universal principles which have existed across all cultures from ancient to modern times. It is a set of time honored practices which are guaranteed to produce results when undertaken through the proper training. Maybe I didn't get the memo, but last I checked internet gossip didn't have much impact on universal energetic principles. And last I checked, "warriors" couldn't care less if someone shit talked. But maybe we have different definitions of "warriors". Again, gossip and rumors have about as much impact as you let them have. Gossip and rumors have existed about as long as humans have. People with the goods tend to still be fairly well off. You can find DOZENS of "unverified personal accounts" of Steve Jobs and his asshole-ery, signed and sealed by people who knew him and worked with him, but people STILL worshiped Steve Jobs, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone looked up at the sky, saw a shooting star, and proclaimed to the entire internet that it was Steve Jobs ascending to the realm of the gods () And he's a glorified computer geek. I'm sure a warrior can do much better.

Copied from other thread: When he said "you" does he mean "you" as in "mike (knows as fiveelementtao on ttb's)?". Just as long as we're being all legalistic here, I figure we shouldn't leave any potentially ambiguous pronouns unassigned. How I read it may not be how it was intended to be conveyed. I'm afraid not. I know you said that the whole "logic" "tit for tat" game wasn't your deal, but you can't have it both ways. You can't claim to not relate to people in that manner, and then turn around and try to play mister lawyer. Unless you are willing to provide the specific communications which lead you to your conclusion, it is wholly unreasonable (based on the singular quote you have provided here) to read all that you seem to be trying to read into it. The quotation you provided says two things: 1) That Scotty does not speak on Max's behalf 2) That you, Mike (knows as fiveelementtao on TTB's) did not take any method from Max You may take whatever message you want to out of that. You've got the context and everything on your end. But understand that from the other person's perspective, they don't have that context. You might wave this quote around as "100% sure" of something or another, but don't be surprised if you don't convince other people that your quote extends as far as you think/want it to. This goes back to the comment I left you in the other thread, about taking your own shoes off for a moment, and maybe walking in someone else's (the person you're talking to, a prospective student with less/no experience, etc). Yes and no (depending on exactly what choice of words you want to use this is what happens when you open the pandora's box of legalistic posturing ) A well practiced and well educated person is reasonably able to make general observations. For instance: I have no knowledge of Red Phoenix. From what I understand, it's always been one of those "must be done in person" things. I've never gone to a seminar and gotten the transmission. I have no desire for the transmission. I've got my own thing. I let other people have their own thing. Now other people, say, for instance, Scotty, do know Red Phoenix. So if they see another practice somewhere, it is perfectly reasonably that they can say "hmm, that looks like Red Phoenix! Interesting. This is what I have done with Red Phoenix, it seems to me like that is what's going on here, though it must be said that I am not doing this practice, but that is what I would put forward." Maybe I missed something (in which case, it'd be nice to point out where it was that it happened...) but it doesn't seem to me like anyone has gone around making any set in stone claims. They've just put forward what they've seen through the lens of their practice and experience. And they've been pretty upfront about there being room for their being mistaken.

When he said "you" does he mean "you" as in "mike (knows as fiveelementtao on ttb's)?". Just as long as we're being all legalistic here, I figure we shouldn't leave any potentially ambiguous pronouns unassigned. How I read it may not be how it was intended to be conveyed. I'm afraid not. I know you said that the whole "logic" "tit for tat" game wasn't your deal, but you can't have it both ways. You can't claim to not relate to people in that manner, and then turn around and try to play mister lawyer. Unless you are willing to provide the specific communications which lead you to your conclusion, it is wholly unreasonable (based on the singular quote you have provided here) to read all that you seem to be trying to read into it. The quotation you provided says two things: 1) That Scotty does not speak on Max's behalf 2) That you, Mike (knows as fiveelementtao on TTB's) did not take any method from Max You may take whatever message you want to out of that. You've got the context and everything on your end. But understand that from the other person's perspective, they don't have that context. You might wave this quote around as "100% sure" of something or another, but don't be surprised if you don't convince other people that your quote extends as far as you think/want it to. This goes back to the comment I left you in the other thread, about taking your own shoes off for a moment, and maybe walking in someone else's (the person you're talking to, a prospective student with less/no experience, etc). Yes and no (depending on exactly what choice of words you want to use this is what happens when you open the pandora's box of legalistic posturing ) A well practiced and well educated person is reasonably able to make general observations. For instance: I have no knowledge of Red Phoenix. From what I understand, it's always been one of those "must be done in person" things. I've never gone to a seminar and gotten the transmission. I have no desire for the transmission. I've got my own thing. I let other people have their own thing. Now other people, say, for instance, Scotty, do know Red Phoenix. So if they see another practice somewhere, it is perfectly reasonably that they can say "hmm, that looks like Red Phoenix! Interesting. This is what I have done with Red Phoenix, it seems to me like that is what's going on here, though it must be said that I am not doing this practice, but that is what I would put forward." Maybe I missed something (in which case, it'd be nice to point out where it was that it happened...) but it doesn't seem to me like anyone has gone around making any set in stone claims. They've just put forward what they've seen through the lens of their practice and experience. And they've been pretty upfront about there being room for their being mistaken.

Looks like everybody really is kung fu fighting!