Sloppy Zhang

Nothing I've said in this thread has even come close to the lengths you describe. The fact that you think so means you've got bigger problems. Other people routinely post longer posts on this forum. Other people routinely respond to longer posts. And even in this thread a couple of people have produced some sizeable chunks of texts. Don't blame someone else just because you can't be bothered to read something that can't fit in a gif caption. (and btw, that "over analysis" has been made before about empty force, by others and myself. It isn't new. Not that you'd know anyway, since you wouldn't have read it then either)

I don't think that's what they mean by the "empty" in "empty force".

That gif sure does explain a lot.

It's always easier if you know how. Here's the cliff notes version- this whole conversation happened because you did not read. If you actually review my first post, I carefully qualified each of my statements so that anyone with a shred of reading capability could comprehend that I was talking about the trends of the average training for the average school for the average person in the average city. Of course, when I pointed it out to you, you acted as if it had never been said in the thread before. When, in fact, it had. So, stop blaming others for your shortcomings and confusions. And learn how to read. Haha.

Same. Ain't nothin' wrong with junk food and horny chicks.

See, that wasn't so hard, was it? Could have just said it straight the first time. When the conversation becomes progressively more defined. "What's the deal with empty force? How come people who don't believe it aren't affected? Why do these MMA guys overcome empty force?" are all incredibly broad questions involving incredibly broad topics. Until it is narrowed, you only really have a choice to speak generally. So say someone comes in and says "hey should I get a tattoo? I dunno what tattoo I'd want, but should I get one?" I somehow doubt that there would be throngs of people saying "yes!" I'm sure the prevailing response (as I've seen in the past) is "as of now, no, but let me ask you a few things like what you like, where you want to get it, etc". The first response is an overall, generalized response, but it shifts as the parameters of the conversation shift (for instance, "I know what I want", "I've consulted an artist" etc etc, in which the answer becomes a "yes, go ahead"). It would be a mistake to extrapolate their initial response to such a vague query to the entire subject of tattoos. Now I've been in a lot of discussions involving the martial arts, and I've seen many more. And I know how whiny people get over stuff like "but you said karate only does point sparring, but in my dojo we do free sparring" and "but you said wing chun doesn't have a ground game, but my sifu taught us takedown defenses". So I am very careful about putting the proper qualifiers. And reviewing my post, it is obvious that I was discussing general trends based on what you were most likely to see in your average location of training. Now if you choose to extrapolate those clearly qualified statements, that is no fault of mine. If you choose to extrapolate and then respond with "bull" because somewhere out there there are people training IMA just as seriously as people who are professional MMAists, that is no fault of mine (and on the subject of there being intense IMAists, I have, and will continue to, agree). If you choose to extrapolate and then come to the conclusion that I don't know what I am talking about because you knew some MMAist whose cardio wasn't as good as even a non-fighter, that is also no fault of mine (and on the subject of "I know someone who....", I know and have trained with a variety of people as well, so I can pick out anyone from my past history to prove whatever point I decide I'm making that day). But perhaps you thought my post resembled a "novel" too much for you to take care in your reading and analysis, and so you glossed over the many times I carefully qualified my points, which of course subsequently indicated their "general" nature (which I later clarified again and you treated it as some stunning new revelation about how to interpret my post). And if that is the case, I must again float the suggestion of "learn how to read", because nothing I have produced in this thread (even including this post) even remotely resembles a novel.

If I did, then I wouldn't have said "no, I don't" as many times as I have. And as I have said- if you speak generally, there are going to be generalizations, and there will be exceptions to every rule, and exceptions that prove the rule, and everything in between and beyond. If you have a problem with something or seek clarification, it would greatly help to point out what specifically you have issue with so that both parties can zero in on a more specific detail, rather than slinging around equally general and vague responses which don't seem to be based on whatever critique you have and which leave the other party guessing as to what you meant. I read it, but you've crossed streams in the conversation, and aren't answering the question that I was referring to. You: Display your points with detail. Me: If you speak about things in general, you are going to have generalizations. You: But where does it end? Me: What do you mean by that? You: You know what I mean. Me: No, I don't. You: Yes, you do. So add detail. Me: But if you speak generally about something (especially a broad topic like martial arts), you won't know what to add the detail about, hence when speaking generally, you have generalizations. You: Yes, but where does it end? Me: I still don't know what you mean by that question. You: Yes you do. I've said it before you just didn't read. So what do you mean by "where does it end"? I assume by "it" you mean "the generalizations". But I don't know for certain. See this is exactly what I mean when I suggested that it'd be swell of you to actually be specific about what you take issue with or what you are referring to. Because I'm sitting here guessing, and you're leaving responses and I don't even know what you're referring to. Which is ironic, because you're the one telling me to add detail! Haha.

How do you get to the 5th dimension again?

Don't fight the flow of the Tao, it's unnatural (said in the thread about making the testicles go back up there)

Yup. Maybe not a literal mountain. But finding some place to get away. I never really got along with the "sex centric" cultivation things. I don't like to think of it as "stop having sex to save your energy", but I rather think of it as "save your energy, and as a byproduct of that, you naturally lose the desire/impulse for sex". Not what I'm in for So maybe you should be talking to someone else about this I think we have different goals. All I know is that it's mentioned here and there. Usually in conjunction with martial arts techniques. B.K. Frantzis mentioned it a few times. He says in one of his books that Wang Shujin knew how could do it. When Frantzis asked Wang if he would teach, Wang pretty much said "no way". Basically, it was risky enough as it was, and at the time Frantzis was going back and forth between Taiwan and Japan, and generally juggling school and practice and stuff like that at the time. So Wang did not feel comfortable teaching someone the skill unless he could monitor him 24/7. As far as the testicle retraction for conserving energy for cultivation, I'm not sure. I don't know of anyone who talks about it, but then again, it's not something I'm interested in, so I don't really research it. Frantzis might know about it, but I don't think he talks about stuff like that except to students who have advanced to the appropriate level. And that thing would be pretty advanced. Well you never know. I don't know how old you are. But there have been more than a few people who come to this forum interested in sex techniques, or stuff related to the sexual energy. They want to preserve their energy and whatnot. They say they aren't interested in sex. Then they notice they stop getting boners and they start freaking out. They start to worry if they've lost something. So then they start jackin' off and generally freaking out. It's one thing to talk about it when you are healthy and don't have problems. It's another to realize that you really don't have it. I think that may be one reason that, in some traditions, people weren't really taught the serious stuff until they were older and had raised their own kids to adulthood. That way the person knows how the world is, they've gotten it all out of their system, and they are for sure ready to move on.

And drinking, and getting into stupid conversations, and wasting your time doing stupid stuff, and being around stupid people, getting caught up in things that waste your time and consume all of your focus and energy. Basically, living in the modern world. It's why, if you can't deal with it, many people leave to work alone. Then they come back when they have learned how to deal with what comes up and learn how to not get caught up in stupid stuff. Of course, you don't HAVE to leave. But some people feel the need to. So it's not just blowing your load or having sex that dissipates your vitality. Anyway. The testicles are on the outside of the body because the temperature of the sperm needs to be regulated. Can't be too hot or too cold. Inside the body is too hot. In, say, a hot shower, they'll hang low to get away from the body and escape the body heat. In the cold, they will cling to the body to get extra body heat. So shoving your testicles up into your body and keeping them up there for too long could heat them up too much, kill off the sperm and... yeah, pretty much that. Also, the pulling your testicles into your body is a pretty specific skill. Even when doing it properly, it is dangerous. Even highly trained people wouldn't risk it unless being supervised by a master. If you don't need to do it, you probably shouldn't. Plus, if you're shoving them up there unnecessarily, you could get them stuck up there. I've heard they can even get stuck up there even if you HAVE learned the right method. Then you're in the doctor's office explaining to them, no, your testicles HAVE dropped, but you wanted to shove them up there to preserve your vitality. But guess what? You're losing a lot more now that you're stressing out that your balls are stuck up in there, your sperm are dead, and you aren't getting a boner and are now worrying how you will ever use your mad taoist love making skills to get laid.

No, actually, I don't. Have you considered writing longer posts so you could elucidate your point more completely? Because this: Applies much more to statements like "bull" and "you obviously don't know what you're talking about but I'm not going to point out what exactly you said that leads me to believe that and I'm not going to expound on my own knowledge and connect it to how I drew the conclusion that you don't know what you're talking about".

Sure about that? I'd hate for someone to have to read a "novel" length response just to make sure I get in all the appropriate details. You complained about my first post in this thread already. Imagine how long it'd have been if I had put in all the exceptions, disclaimers, and acknowledged whatever counter cases I could think of just so I could cover the bases to make you (or someone like you) happy. Cover everything- post is too long. Don't cover everything- people think you don't know what you're talking about. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Yeah, what do you mean by that? If you talk about things in general, you are going to make generalizations.

Pretty much this. As for being a face in the crowd with Liping, I think that is right. But if you really want to learn from that tradition, then I think it'd be worth it to learn some of the practices. Of course, all the responsibility will be on you to learn them and practices and do them on your own. If it's worth it to you then it will be worth it.

Not quite sure what you mean.

Most definitely. I certainly wonder how much stuff people have researched, how much they have just heard, and how much they have chalked up to artistic inspiration.

I thought the point would have been known without saying. Guess not. When I first started posting I would always put disclaimers like "I know that not every IMAist is like this, but...." and "now course you could find someone who isn't like this", but it got to a point where it was said so often that, you know, people got the message without it having to be said. And I generally read that into any post anybody makes when talking about large swaths of people, institutions, governments, movements, etc etc etc. Any time you speak about something generally you are going to make generalizations, and you are going to find examples within those populations that run counter to the generalized statement. I thought it made some nice symmetry with the end of your post.

I'd hardly call a handful of sentences and one whole paragraph a novel. Next time you can be more specific about what exactly you have issue with so I can clarify at once, rather than your leaving ambiguous and possibly insulting statements of "bull" and "you don't know what you're talking about", to which I then have to send out a shotgun shot of potential responses, thus increasing the length of the post with which someone (in this case, you) will invariably have some kind of further issue. And I'm sure learning to read a little won't kill you, and might even prove to be a useful life skill. haha

I've found it interesting that even if someone has a general idea of "energy", but they seek to create some fictional "system", they can get surprisingly close to principles from qigong and stuff like that. I dunno, I at least found that to be a rather interesting case. But no, haven't seen the movie. Already spent my rationed out movie money But I do want to see it.

As a great rhetor once spake: See how utterly unhelpful such a response is? Unless you actually back up what you are saying with some kind of references, it's hard to tell if your statement is based on some rationale, or if it is just a random, knee-jerk response. I never said there aren't. Of course there are. Of course I am. Everybody does. That's how we can function and communicate without being so bogged down in exceptions and caveats and disclaimers that we would cease to function! Am I to take it that your refutation of my point is that "well there are some guys out there for whom that doesn't apply"? Well I'd agree with you! Of course there are IMA guys out there who train as hard and as intensely as external guys. I'm sure there are some IMA guys who train harder. And some who train less. Exactly my point. If they practiced, say, under some realistic conditions, such as a non-compliant partner in a full contact setting, you'd know pretty damn well if you could throw someone around with your chi or not. My point is that, on your average walk down your street in your average city with your average population, you are more likely to find an external school training practically than you are likely to find an internal school training the same, let alone an empty force school. And yes, with an average it means there are going to be people on both sides. Which means you and I can both find examples of whatever types of people we want, and still accuse the other person of not knowing what they are talking about, because we know someone who isn't like what the other person is putting forward. No, I do not.

While I don't profess to be an expert on either one, I've seen enough that makes me think that neither one are teaching the most complete mixture of stuff around (at least from my POV), but that does not take away from some of the things they do have which might work. A diamond covered in mud is still a diamond. Anyway, a variety of healing sounds can be found in and are used by many different traditions. If you feel that something is working, keep doing it. Pay attention to your body, stop if something starts to feel wrong, and be wary of adopting something that starts to throw off your system too much. But if you like what you've got, don't let detractors make you stop if it is working for you.

How so? I'm not generalizing them as health nuts (though people who do well in amateur circuits, want to go up to the pro level, and those in the pro levels do have to take care of their bodies, and most do a pretty damn good job of that, even if it is only in training camps, which last for months at a time). I am saying that the average person who trains MMA, even at an amateur level, is most likely getting healthier than the average tai chi or qigong practitioner. I am making this based on how I KNOW MMAists train (based on those I know and have trained with), and based on how I KNOW tai chi and qigong people train (based on those I know and those who I have visited, as none live near me, though I did take a look at their training schedules). In a fight, you'd have person A, who routinely ups their heart rate, trains to develop muscle, and practices overcoming the mental and physical challenges of having to deal with someone trying to knock them out or submit them, fighting person B, who probably does little to up their heart rate, and most likely trains against a mostly compliant and only semi-resistant partner in very narrow fighting situations, such as not fighting on the ground or in the clinch. So yes, I am betting that person A will defeat person B, and I am saying that person A most likely has more chi, healthier chi, and a stronger intent than person B. So please explain to me how any of that is "bull". Of course, this is all assuming the veracity of the chi paradigm. I thought that was pretty clear from the way I was outlining the dynamics, but I guess not. If you don't believe in chi, then it's just one person who is doing something that doesn't exist as he is getting beat up. So, yeah, if you don't believe in the chi paradigm, you don't have to respond.

It's normal.

So think of it this way... Your intent moves your chi, and you use that chi to move the other person, right? So that chi has to go through your body, across the "empty" space, then to the other person, and have enough impact to affect their physical body. So to do that, you have to have a REALLY damn good intent. You also have to have REALLY strong chi. There are a lot of ways to cultivate intent, and a lot of ways to cultivate strong chi. But for the sake of comparing these masters to, say, an MMA fighter, I'll use some specific ones. You can cultivate intent by overcoming hardships. Keeping your eye on the prize, and never stopping until you get it. So in your MMA workouts you get to the end and you keep going. Someone is punching your face in, they are a better fighter than you, your body is screaming in pain, and you fight back. You fight until someone is pouring a bucket of water on your head and you're waking up. You finally win, and you feel like it's worth it. Compare that to how many qigong people train. Not that many do it to that extent for as long as even amateur MMAists go. 25-45 minutes? An hour every other day? Even amateur fighters struggling to make ends meet can get a DAILY workout regiment, at least an couple of hours every day (wake up and run before work, for instance), etc. So in the intent category, on average, no comparison. How do you get strong chi? Taking care of your body and getting things to flow. Many MMAists, even amateurs, have really healthy bodies. They have to have them. They are flexible yet strong. They eat right and they stay away from stuff that hurts their bodies. Their body is their meal ticket. Good workout + good nutrition + strong intent = lots of clear, strong moving chi. Compare this to the "chi bellies" that many qigong people have. I've seen some people leave comments on aikido videos on youtube saying "it's actually better to be fat, because then you are harder to throw". Right, so then we come to the contest- the chi guy has to project chi in such a way that it overcomes the physicality and the chi of the MMAist. Meanwhile, the MMAist, who already has a lot of strong chi and intent, is using their intent AND their physical body. So who do you REALLY think is going to win? Now there are serious internal martial artists and qigong people who cultivate in the same levels and intensity that MMAists train. But those people usually don't put up videos showing them beating up MMAists. So, you know.