Sloppy Zhang

Who do you have in mind for these living masters? Color me skeptical, but how many people, when they discover they have a treatable form of cancer, go seek out these people, proteges of these people, or members of some such tradition to get energetic healing? Color me skeptical, but for all the talk about mystical transcendence and being able to see into different realms and levels of existence, how many of them get divine aid to help find missing persons? Or have they transcended so much, they realize it's pointless to help? I'm a skeptical guy. As far as I am concerned, a whole lot of NOTHING has been produced by ANYONE which could actually get someone to stop and think. (for the rational skeptics out there). However, for most discussion purposes, I take two things as operating assumptions: 1) that this stuff is real, 2) there is a way for humans to do it. I don't tend to throw this around because it distracts from most conversation, and otherwise I'd just sit here saying "bah, humbug" and sounding like a dick the whole time (every time I've brought the subject of skepticism up even slightly, it has not been well received, here or elsewhere), but if you wanna open the can of worms, that's all right As for Mr. Crowley, I've heard conflicting things. I have heard that there was one instance in which he was levitating when lecturing to his students. And for some of their tests, they had to find a specific thing on the astral plane, come back, and describe it. Not only did their testimony have to match each others', it had to mach Crowley's. But whose to say with what scientific rigor those tests were administered. Then there's the whole binding satan attempt which supposedly failed and royally screwed him, but there are a lot of screwy things that went on in his life. As far as modern masters, there are two people on http://forums.vsociety.net/, with the usernames Prophecy and Veos, who are supposedly very advanced students of yoga and of Bardon's material. Back in the early days of that board, they would show up at in real life gatherings and perform stuff. Apparently won over a large following, and cemented their status as legitimate as far as the forum goes. But a lot of those same students left, rationalized away the feats, and ultimately turned on the teachers. So they focus on their core group of students, teach some intro courses online, and the like. They are both pretty nice and generally responsive through the forum, maybe for those who care they may agree to be met in real life once more. But IIH and western magick isn't really my thing, so I didn't really pursue the matter. Anyway...

You make a lot of video game analogies Not that that's a bad thing

First and foremost, you should practice what resonates with you. Trust me, a system (or ANYTHING) can make the "most sense" to study, but if it doesn't resonate with you, it ain't gonna happen, and you're just going to waste your time. Find something that you like, and stick with it, even if you don't know how it (or even "if") it will work out (see my sig for inspiration). And that practice should be complete, which, for me, has two primary components: helps you handle ALL aspects of life, and outlines a CLEAR set of steps for how to better yourself and reach some sort of ultimate goal (enlightenment, unity with universal consciousness, etc). Anyway, from a lot of research and reading and personal practice, I have come to a stunning conclusion- most of the paths have the same end goal. I'll take IIH as an example- it is awesomely straightforward, and very easily accessible, not to mention has en entire paradigm and backup theory thanks to a lot of other writers. The goal of IIH is union with the Godhead, all that good stuff which you'd get going through the chakras, culminating in than awesome realization of enlightenment. However, it is not one of those "sudden realization" or "insight" schools. It builds. And it does so by getting you familiar with and practicing with all of those energies that are in the physical (the four elements), mental, psychic, and spiritual realms. I mentioned in the "6th Element" thread how, in IIH system, these elements correspond to chakras, and working with them through the IIH can equate to a Kundalini awakening. Sure, when you are all enlightened, and fully united with the cosmos, it will all seem silly, all that word and study you did, because it will be so easy for you. But until you get to that point you're sitting there doing nothing! Literally, you're sitting there in a room facing a wall waiting for the bolt of lightening called enlightenment to come and get you. Maigicians think that is silly. When magicians want something, they go and get it. The course of a magician takes them through the full deck of the tarot, which represents The Fool's Journey (hint: the magician is the fool!) They start at the beginning, clueless, and come full circle! (Not unlike many a concept which has come out of eastern thoughts!) Wester magic focuses on ALL aspects of existence, high AND low. Some systems think that is pointless, that it is a trap and will keep you from realizing your true goal. If you think that, don't do magic. Western magic traditions feel there is value in learning the lower. Read through the IIH, get the feel for it, then read through "Opening The Dragon's Gate". I, for one, found many a striking similarity, though obviously each one is through their own cultural lens. Freeform made a post a long time ago about how some traditions "build up", and others take down. IIH builds up. Sometimes that is not for everybody. Furthermore, if you want to get into that whole "fire method" vs "water method distinction", IIH is a fire method (though keep in mind it IS well balanced and includes ALL elements and ALL aspects of life). Speaking once more to the whole cultural things- depends on the situation, depends on the situation, depends on the person. You can't just say "ah, you're a westerner, you must think this way, you should study this." In one of 5ET's videos about his revival of indigenous western tradition, he makes the point that western traditions have western cultural themes, symbolism, and messages, so culturally would be more relateable and easily understood conceptually, and I think that's a far better point, because honestly, a lot of eastern stuff is hidden behind cultural symbolism, languages, and implicit meaning. Not to mention fragmented and misunderstood enough as it is, then taken to the west in even smaller fragments by an even more distant audience. But sometimes you need to move OUT of your box for you to get it, and sometimes you need something that will tell it like it is in plain ol', easy to understand, ENGLISH! Western traditions give you a little bit of this, eastern traditions give you a little bit of something else. A complete tradition will have everything. A tradition that resonates with you will make you have more progress.

As for the masturbation thing, I prefer to put everything on one "sexual spectrum". Celibacy on one end, full blown sex on the other. In between you have many things- masturbation (solo), making yourself look attractive for the opposite sex, holding hands (in a romantic sense), kissing, caressing, masturbation (together), non intercourse sex acts (like oral sex), etc. ALL of these are expressing different aspects of sexuality. Each of these can EQUALLY be respected and disrespected, treated with care or abused. Having sex with a partner is not automatically "better" because you're with someone- if more people would just masturbate instead of using someone's body for a senseless release of sexual tension (let's not even get into the many NON-sexual reasons people partake in sex acts), the world would be a little better place. Humans are sexual. To deny that is to deny your humanity. To avoid masturbation because you think it is inferior to something else is to deny your status as a human. There are certainly many ways that masturbation can be abused, and lead to a state of non-health. But the same can be said for every other expression of sexuality, so to deny masturbation on those grounds would be to deny everything else, and that's not what either of us are trying to do. Masturbation can be a healthy way to explore and express your sexuality. When it is time to do it, don't be afraid. When it is not time to do it, it won't even cross your mind. But if you are so worried about it when the time IS right, and you try to push it out of your life, it WILL push back, intrude in other aspects of your life, and make you a very unhappy person. And btw, I remember the post where someone mentioned the whole bit about animals only masturbating when in captivity, and in periods of intense stress and stuff like that. And all I have to say is 1) those are animals 2) those are extenuating circumstances 3) those are extenuating circumstances for animals I've been around various forums where the talk of masturbation started, and a lot of people started swapping stories about discovering masturbation as children. So, I dunno, to me that just screams "natural occurrence". It's only AFTER they grow older that so many sociological and psychological overtones get draped over a natural discovery of their body. But that's just me.

I'm going to break this up into two posts to make it easier to read, and hopefully make it easier for you to think it over. Well see I don't think either of those things are healthy or constructive- retaining just because you can't get sex, and not masturbating because you think it'd be pathetic. The energy from retaining should be put TOWARDS something constructive. Not just saved up because you've got nothing better to do. Start an exercise regiment (strongly recommend this one). Start playing and instrument. Learn a foreign language. Do SOMETHING which you can spend your energy on. Otherwise you are just building up energy with no outlet, and when it reaches a critical mass, it will go to wherever your focus is on- and if your focus is on sex (even you are trying do avoid SEX- did you see the big keyword there?) then guess what you are going to do? Mmhmm, you guessed it. And if you manage to suppress even THAT, you are in for a really weird, very uncomfortable, very unhappy state. As an aside here, I am talking about celibacy WITHOUT arousal- as in, you aren't getting aroused, reaching climax, but not going past that point to save the energy. If you aren't doing it as part of a larger system (and even if you ARE) it can be very dangerous and throw you off even MORE. I do not recommend doing it.

Is this the Cameron who went to Korea? Or am I thinking of someone else.....?

For me it all has to do with naturalness. There are times, during intense work, exercise, or cultivation, in which sexual thoughts and urges, physical or mental, just don't occur. In that case, there is no point or desire to engage in sexual activity. Just do what you do. And during times when you're really ready to go, going with it can lead to some very positive, healthy releases- much more so than trying to hold it all in because of this or that. My experiences with strong spiritual, and even mundane, motivating factors have give me a glimpse into how one can live an extended celibate lifestyle. But in those instances, there is a drive towards some goal- spiritual growth, financial success, increased physical ability, etc. Those things happen and celibacy FOLLOWS. There is always some goal. The objective is NOT "hey, I'm going to be celibate!" instead it's "hey, I have a goal" and sex just never enters the picture. And those factors have to be so strong that they dominate all of your life- to the point where you just don't think about other stuff, like sex. I feel like many people join orders, such as those that impose celibacy, for reasons other than having some goal, and in doing so must then conform to some dogmatic codes, and in the process start on an unnatural path that, if it were up to them, they would never have even done. Celibacy as it happens naturally- healthy, and rarely, if ever, involves elaborate practices to make sure you stay celibate. Celibacy as dictated by some rule- usually leads to the opposite of health, and is a path generally undertaken for a variety of reasons, usually because of a deep seated issue the individual is not facing. So Non- why are you trying to be celibate? If you aren't trying to engage in sex, and don't want to engage in frivolous sexual activity (you told me that in a past thread), why are you always so focused on sex? Celibacy is supposed to take sex out of the picture (though as I said above, successful celibacy happens AFTER you quit thinking of sex), but in your case, your attempts at celibacy make you more attuned to it.

I've heard that one of the ways they check men who have erectile dysfunction to see if the root cause is physiological or mental is to see if they have morning wood- because that's pretty natural, and a sure fire way to see if you can even physically do it. But if you get erections throughout the day (which IS normal and HEALTHY), then you know that you can physically do it- so it's not a problem there. My guess is that you've gotten to the point where you subconsciously try to suppress it as soon as you start to wake up, so by the time you are awake, you aren't up anymore (couldn't resist!!! ) In general though, I echo what has already been said here- your obsession with these topics which you are sharing now and have shared in the past do not seem like they are leading you to a healthy and happy place. Please think very carefully about where you are and where you are going, and why you are going or want to go to that place.

Well first off, every forum I've been a member of has had threads like this. Older members looking back at "the good old days", and saying nowadays don't hold a candle to them. Then you've got to consider the fact that you yourself might have grown and changed. I remember there was this lecturer that I had listened to once, and I thought this guy was so sharp and insightful. I spent the next year reading, living, practicing, talking to people about a whole number of topics, and when I went back to hear this guy's lecture, it was the most shallow and pedantic thing I had ever heard! There are times when you may need to hang around the forums, and there are times when you may need to go do something else. But I will say that I can thing of a couple colorful characters that aren't around anymore, and a few threads that probably wouldn't last too long these days.

According to this post I'm looking forward to hearing something as well! I too find that neat stuff comes up in association with Maoshan, and would like to hear some more that anybody has to say on the topic

Looking at my own development, it seems to have followed the archetypal images and meanings of the chakras. So I'd say trying to start from the middle or the end is like trying to build a window first when trying to build a house- you just can't do it unless you have walls and a floor (at the very least). It's not like you are necessarily TRYING to do any one thing, it's just that by the time you reach the point where you are able to put in a window, you've already got what you need to do it. But the chakra archetypes are just one way of looking at a progression (and looking at it in these ways are very subjective to begin with), there are also things like The Fools' Journey from the tarot. I've heard a variety of reasons, I dunno what to make of them. Someone should probably ask someone from a Hindu or a yoga tradition.

It was a good try though

I'll take a stab and say he's talking about "The 5th Element", but I could be wrong because the numbering is off. Furthermore, I believe marblehead just related to you the Chinese five elements (phases). There is a thread about relating them. They've got a bit of a different structure than the western/Indian ones. Anyway, the chakras and their elemental correspondences from what I recall from Hermetics (probably wrong, here) Earth element - root chakra - it grounds you and connects you to the earth, how you let go of stuff as well Water element - sacral chakra - sexual energies. 'Nuff said. Fire element - solar plexus (or stomach, however you want to view it) - provides energy for the entire system Wind element - heart chakra - don't recall explanataion Void - throat - you speak through a void??? (but not really????) Spirit/connection with those types of energies - third eye - because third eye is your psychic stuff Entire Universe - crown chakra - it's how you are connected As I said, my memory and knowledge of this stuff is shaky. Ask on the magick forums on http://forums.vsociety.net/, a lot of experienced and knowledgeable people over there who can fill you in on the Hermetic perspective. Basically, through the magick paradigm, as you work with the elements you work with their corresponding chakras, and as you master the elements (in ALL of their areas of influence: physically, energetically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually) so too do you master each chakra. So it's basically a form of kundalini awakening leading up to the point where you fully integrate with the cosmic consciousness through the crown. But that's if you're interested in the Hermetics. And as an aside, I would shy away from trying to correspond the dantiens and the chakras. I tried early on when I started (just as I tried to make western/Chinese elemental correspondences), and I'll just say let separate things be separate things. I actually think the dantiens ARE separate. And it becomes more apparent as you wander into some confusing back and forths because the lower dantien is associated with fueling the body, okay, that's the solar plexus chakra. But wait, the lower dantien is associated with water. Okay, that's sacral. But the sacral chakra is about sex, is the lower dantien about that too? But the lower dantien is the lower burner, that's fire, so we're back to the solar plexus chakra!!! If anything, I'd say the kanda correlates to the lower dantien more than the chakras. I first found out about it in this thread: Subtle body anatomy (I link directly to the post that mentions it, but the whole thread is nice) But as fiveelementtao said in the element correspondences thread, you should be relying on practice, not theory. Trust me, if you try to think it all out, it won't make sense. But if you find a practice and paradigm that you like, and you PRACTICE it, then what works for you is going to be what is best for you, in which case all the theory in the world will mean nothing. And if you want to nail the theory down BEFORE you practice something seriously, you'll wind up never practicing. You don't gain knowledge and confidence in something in order for you to practice it. You gain knowledge and confidence in something BECAUSE you practice it.

I agree! Great stuff all around!

Yang Jwing-Ming has some interesting explanations for what the dantiens physically and where to find them. He says they are where a ton of nerves and receptors are, that generate a ton of bio-electricity and life. So, the brain jumps out as one. The heart\chest region. And then the digestive track. A BUNCH of stuff going on that generates energy. The thing about the lower dantien is that it is also the physical center of gravity, so it'd make sense that there would be some "stuff", both energetically and physically there. There is also a "real" and a "false" dantien. The "real" one being inside your body, the center, there energy can actually be stored and worked with. The "false" one, if I recall correctly, was a point somewhere below the navel, most often associated with acupuncture (which is why it became so easily mistaken for the actual one, because more people read and passed around acupuncture books than they did working with their own body), that energy could pass through (like the microcosmic orbit) but not be used to store energy. But that's just what I recall from one or two of his books (a lot of them reprint info, so I'm sure this info is in a couple of them).

Okay, so all of this sounds interesting, EXCEPT, it means that X-Men are not possible. And if your theory cannot explain the existence of X-Men, well, you need to go back to the drawing board. FACT: X-Men are mutants FACT: Mutants have mutations Therefore: X-Men have mutations. If you do not have mutations, you do not have X-Men, and that is just not possible. Explain to me how X-Men exist, if not for mutations, THEN I'll believe you.

Yes, a separate practice thread is better, after all, it seemed like this thread was more about general discussion. Though I don't see how anything in this thread amounts to side discussion or thread derailment after this line in the OP: All that happened is a couple people took up that offer...

That's basically what he said. I crossed out the rest because, uh, he's not you, and would have nothing to prompt the crossed out statements..... If you want to say that anyone being asked to back up a claim puts you on the defensive, sure. Just keep in mind that EVERYONE is in that position whenever they make a claim. It's kind of how the process works.... He didn't ask for proof, he asked for verification, which to me, as a student, sounds like a 3rd party source which says the same things you are saying, and again, that's a fairly standard process EVERYONE goes through when they make a claim. No one is going after you. Then again, maybe he thought this: Or this: So was merely just trying to get the point across in a direct way. But I don't mean to speak for anyone. Like you, I'm just calling it like I see it, and how I see it, the posts were interested in getting involved, but before jumping right in, wanted to wet their feet with some third party sources. Now, I'm sure a lot of people would be very interested in hearing this part:

I completely agree. And I recall numerous posts of his in which he has expressed his personal sentiments, as well as the times he has taken a hiatus from the forum. But instead of simply stating "I'm not interested in discussing this, take it or leave it", we get: Which, to me, seems a bit much, especially given the tone of the initial inquiries, which, for those who don't recall, went a little like this: And: I have trouble seeing the passive aggressiveness and slander... But maybe that's just me.

There is no need to be defensive. It does not reflect well. If all you have is personal experiences, that is fine. Just say what you do have and don't apologize for what you don't have. But don't make it seem like members of TTB are on a personal vendetta to discredit you. Everyone, and I'm sure Seth felt this way too when he asked, which is probably why he said what he said (though I don't mean to speak for anyone), hates to be the "skeptic", the one who says "hey can we verify this please?" Sure, it breaks up the flow, but a bit of healthy skepticism keeps everyone honest, and as long as something is genuine, there is nothing to fear from a little inquiry. Dishonest assault with loaded, unprovable questions is another matter, but that's not what's gone on here, at least none that I can see. Anyway...... Shangqing Taoism Shang-Ch'ing And Maoshan With a preview right here where you can search it for "shang-ch'ing".

I think this is important too. These days, a lot of stuff tends to carry over and invade your life. My dad, for the longest time, would dodge work calls when he was at home on the weekends and in the evenings. And then one day his boss bought him a phone and was like, "never turn this phone off, and if it rings, answer it." So even if someone accomplishes something, it's like you're never done, even if it's just for one evening. And sure, most people probably know that there is always gonna be more work, but it's nice to at least have a little perception that, you know, you're done.

They're teaching this in management classes, now. only a matter of time until "the man" learns to exploit this for his evil, greedy ends!

Thinking on it some more, the thing that happens when you love something/have an aptitude with it, is that practice isn't just "practice", but it is also "play". That gives you the freedom to explore, try new things, and get some insight into aspects that someone else, who's just trying to memorize through mere repetition, isn't going to get, which lets them get the insight that aridus mentioned: And it also increases the quality of practice, which Otis mentions. But again, it's not to say that one much have a natural aptitude or talent in order to be successful. I'm just trying to find the quality that people who I would consider "geniuses" to have, what makes them succeed and come out on top even if someone else has put in the same hours of practice and study.

Well that's all well and good assuming you want to get all mystical. But all it means, if someone is popular, is that they have public support (for however long amount of time). And again, that doesn't say ANYTHING about the person the people support. They could be brilliant or stupid. Sinner or saint. And it changes. There was a sentiment put forward in the film Gladiator, where a character says, "remember, the mob is fickle". There's no telling why someone one day is a nobody, then the next is at the height of popularity, but then gets cast down to being a nobody (think William Hung). Then you've got people who, thanks to the backing of large media corporations, have their products inundate the market, and are "popular" by default. And your unnameable "x factor" sounds great, until you look at people who have no talent, and don't actually do ANYTHING, like Paris Hilton, who is just "there", meanwhile you've got artists who starved to death in life, but we think of them today as great. If their work had so much attraction, had so much attractive power, then why didn't it get them any fame and success when they were alive??? Because the mob is fickle. Because there is no telling when and why people will find something cool. Which is why business spend tons of money each year trying to predict the next big trends, and catch it before it happens, and why businesses lose tons of money each year because their bets failed. But they keep trying because when it works, it pays off BIG. The thing is, you see the successes, but don't see the failures. So it APPEARS that some "x factor" is drawing people in, when really, you have no way of knowing what vicissitudes of fate pushed something onto the stage, or shoved it off.

I believe immortal was referring to the "western element" paradigm of "earth, water, fire, wind (void)". As to the question the OP..... This bugged me a lot too in the past, and I got to a point where I found an answer that I liked, and then I..... forgot! So I did enough research and practice until I got to the point where I found a satisfactory answer, and then quit apparently stopped caring. So a satisfactory answer is out there (I know that if I were you reading this post of mine, I would NOT have been satisfied ) But you should also probably know that it's highly doubtful you'll care once you find an answer If I recall what it was that made me satisfied, I'll post it.