Sloppy Zhang

I hope so! What if a girl roofies a guy?

I have no major issues with this post.

I think the "logic" behind it is they are both cowardly, disingenuous ways of bringing women into your life. Why roofie her? Why manipulate her? Why put on a false dom persona? Why don't you just be yourself? In my opinion it is.

A former boxer joined my karate school. And beat the shit out of me.

Why are you so mean to big words??

I don't know, do you believe in karma? There are a few relationships (personal and professional) that felt strongly "karmic" in nature. I got a lot of advice from a lot of people on what to do. But instead I just felt it out, and let it work itself out. A long time ago I read on some site (it was pretty new agey now that I think about it) that before incarnating each soul figures out what it wants to experience in life, and that's how your life is "decided" (or at least, that's your personality, circumstance, etc). So really... it's your own darn fault That was always somewhat comforting, that it was my decision to be in whatever situation I'm in (I just don't recall). So I learned to trust myself and just make the best of it.

Ironically, people have similar feelings about people running dom game My point isn't to argue we should or shouldn't roofie people. My point isn't to argue that we should or shouldn't run dom game. My point isn't to argue that we should or shouldn't change our behavior to pick up a partner (at least, in this post, and in the initial response to brian) (cuz I'm sure bax is gonna come in here and be like "lol u were saying something else earlier" cuz I was responding to other posts). If you say "don't change your behavior to meet someone you want to start a relationship with" and then in the same breath say "well yeah change your behavior around your 4 year old niece" or "yeah change your behavior in a job interview duh" and then, when I (or someone else) calls you out on it, and you say "no they're completely different," welllllllll My point IS: they aren't completely different. They're different points on the same spectrum. Where you move the slider on what is "acceptable" and "unacceptable" is determined by a lot of factors. Don't pretend like you have an issue with the spectrum. You've just decided that one aspect of that spectrum is okay, and the other is not.

I know. Doesn't mean we can't learn a lesson.

That was never my position. My position was that they are two separate points on the same spectrum. What is bizarre is people acting like they are on different spectra.

It will. They don't say "fake it til you make it" for nothing. I mean, as meditators/qigong people we should know that your physiology can affect mental behavior. And vice versa. Acting more confident will MAKE you more confident. Even if you aren't confident. Amazing.

You should be more confident.

No. I think they're UNintentionally misreading. That's for worse, and more disturbing. I already address it. Why? After 20 odd pages it's apparently people won't argue with what I'm saying. They'll argue with what they think I'm saying.

Sub clinical hybristophilia?

Worse, it's intellectually lazy, especially when I provided clear reasons for saying what I said. Instead, it's taken out of context and presented in a completely different context to create a meaning other than the intended one. [edit] Then, after presenting the false argument, they argue against it! So no one is really arguing with Sloppy Zhang... they are arguing with their mental projection of Sloppy Zhang...[/edit] It's not just Brian. It's almost everyone else in the thread. It's not even infuriating. It's just sad and depressing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum ^how most people in this thread have responded to all of my posts

Wow man, talk about reframing something to suit your own opinion Call it what you want man. You can call it "putting your best foot forward" or you can call it "being ashamed of the foot you don't want other people to see." Same act, different perspective. I have a lot of friends. And they talk to me about their girl problems. Because I'm one of the few tech guys who doesn't seem to have any problems getting into/maintaining relationships with women!

I'd say that they are. Both of them are manipulating the situation to get what you want. One of them is "okay" and one of them is "not okay." Should we tell people to stop buying girls drinks because it's exploitative of the situation and not genuine? She should want to talk to you regardless of whether you come bearing gifts. If not, she's not worth your time. Or so I can imagine that argument. I think it's exactly the right approach and it blows up the whole damn spectrum. Obviously it's a judgment call, and I don't disagree that it is not a meaningless one (meaning I agree it's an important call to make ) What I disagree with is people condemning one action while lauding another and claiming they are two separate things, when they are both on the same spectrum.

Of course there are exceptions. But really... I work in a tech company. All the sales/marketing people (with sports history or other history with women) no problems going out, having fun, getting laid, or being in long term relationships. Engineers/programmers? Predominantly single, no history of approaching/dating women. Socially awkward. A few of them are high energy and can get lots of dates- and then get friendzoned within weeks or it just doesn't "work out." Same in college. Same in high school. Call it a "stereotype" call it "immature" call it whatever you want. I'm just callin it like I see it. I've only been skimming the thread, so I don't recall when/where this alpha/beta distinction came from... Personally, I don't care what's alpha or beta. It's what works, and it's what the women like. There are going to be exceptions and everyone is different and blah blah. Yeah, plenty of people find that special someone and settle down with them and that works. But a lot more people don't. And I see it every day.

We never moved For me, the issue is (was?) about changing behavior, in ANY way, in your interactions with people. Personally, I don't believe "acting like a douchebag" to a girl (not necessarily "acting really mean") is what people should do. Does it work? Hell yeah. However, that's not fundamentally different than "acting more confident" around women to get them to "like you." Or "acting more flirty". There seems to be this view that "oh you should just be yourself and you'll find people." But why would you think that would work in a romantic interaction when all other human interaction is marked by modulations of behavior according to circumstance? Anything short of that is "playing games" or "being dishonest," according to some folks around here. Which is puzzling, because there appears to be no issue with modulating behavior in another other circumstance

That's because, in this instance, most of them "got it." If you talk to your buddies in the football team locker room about how to handle this girl you like, it's fairly reasonable you already have had girls approach you/had sex with you. It's fairly reasonable your friends are the same. That you all have lots of male/female friends. However, when you have a guy who's been in computer science school all his life, graduates at 22, never kissed a girl, never dated, never hangs out with girls, suddenly... how does he approach women? Why isn't he as good with women as other guys? That necessarily begs a bit more analysis and yes, "restructure," than the guys who already have most of the ingredients. How is this any different from any other life change? (dieting more, smoking less, drinking less, exercising more, drinking more green tea, going to sleep earlier, etc, even if you don't really "feel like it".

This "natural" process doesn't always happen, for a variety of reasons. A person might not be good at picking up social cues. More likely than not, they just weren't in a position to learn. I wrote before about athletes, and how athletes (especially in school) are SURROUNDED by girls (who actively pursue athletes). When you are pursued by girls constantly since elementary/middle school, when you continuously interact with girls, you, well, learn how to do it. Yeah, you gain "confidence," the self assuredness that girls want to talk to you. But you also learn how girls behave differently than boys, and how they develop into women differently than men. And you tailor your approach. You don't *think* about it, because it *just happens.* When asked "why are you so good with women?" they say "I don't know... just go for it." Meanwhile, if you have little mathlete junior who only hangs out with boys up until high school or college, guess what? He doesn't know how to talk to girls/women as naturally as the guy who's been surrounded by girls/women since he was 12. So he has to learn. That doesn't make him less genuine. It doesn't make him fake. For a while, it makes him mechanical. But learning new ways of communicating is always mechanical at first. Hell, qigong is mechanical until you learn it and really "feel" it. Then you let go and let the process do its thing.

Except it's not "just confidence." Women (and to a certain extent this does vary with age, social class, etc) process information and conversations differently. Some guys intuitively pick this up as they age and interact with more women. Others do not (because they don't interact with women, or they never pick up the social cues). I know plenty of guys with absolute confidence, they meet girls all the time, go on a lot of dates... and never make it past the second or third date, or always wind up getting "friendzoned" because they treat the girl like they treat anyone else. They don't realize that you gotta treat a girl a little different when you want to move into relationship territory.

Well, I'm sure that does happen. Not anything I do and I don't think that's anything I ever suggested What about selectively editing my resume? I wouldn't tell a girl upfront that I've been LARPing. She'd think that's lame and gross. (Well, I might, if I was doing so ironically and if it come up naturally in a humorous way in the conversation.) But, if I told her about it after 3 months of a relationship when she already knows and likes me, well that's very different. She might overlook it, think it's cute, or funny, or even join in (because she likes me otherwise). People always put their "best foot forward." I don't think it's inherently dishonest. When you interview for a job, you put one foot forward. When you meet a new friend, your other foot. When a new (potential) lover, you put the third foot forward.

Now we get into a slippery spectrum though! I dress up in a job interview and "put my best foot forward" so to speak because I want to get the job. After two years maybe I don't care if my boss sees a little scruff. Am I being disingenuous by cleaning up my image a bit so I can get a job? What If I notice that the football team seems to be popular with the men and the women at school and I want more friends? Maybe I try out for the football team. Is this disingenuous? Maybe I'm tired of being alone and no girls want to date me because I'm a boring nerd. So instead of hanging out with a nerd crowd, I join the running club so I can get in shape and meet more women. Is this also disingenuous? At what point does changing your life become disingenuous? This seems to me to be a very fluid spectrum, and it seems like the goal posts are rather arbitrarily being applied according to, well, according to whatever the hell criteria you want Only go so far on the spectrum, and you're okay, oops, you ticked over into the "bad" side of the spectrum, oh, you're such a bad person now! Hm. How about we cut the bullshit and realize it's the same fundamental action.

Then how is speaking differently to a woman you are interested in any different, and why should it be labelled as "fraudulent" as it has been so labelled by many people in this thread (including yourself)?