Sloppy Zhang

Read his post that I was responding to (which you are now responding to). Most of it was directed at me, and I'm just responding. As to his points to the general "internet generation", I'm mostly part of that very internet generation, so once again, his points DO apply to me. And as part of the generation that he's talking to, I'm just doing my part to attempt to dispel any myths, assumptions, and pointless stereotypes. As I've mentioned frequently in the other thread- same issues, different medium. You still gotta look pretty damn hard! Just because it doesn't look hard to you doesn't mean it isn't. One thing is clear from these threads, and that's many of the older generations only know about the young generations through stereotypical depictions, and NOT through personal experience. If they did have any experience, a significant portion of the things being said wouldn't be said, because they just aren't applicable. Please (and this is meant to all)- think about the assumptions you have going in, the things that you take for granted. Your position might make sense until you question the things that you are leaving unquestioned. Of course, there's no substitute for actually LIVING in the generation, and actually facing the problems that generation faces. So there's always going to be stuff you just don't quite get. And that's going to be the same for me (already started happening with my younger cousins). And in those situations, it's best to leave your assumptions at the door.

So we come full circle to the point that I'm making: EVERYONE is working. Everyone has to struggle and make sacrifices. Do you have a smart phone in your hand, or a shovel? Neither one makes you feel any more "entitled", you still have to bust your ass. 5ET assumes that just 'cause you can get stuff done instantly, that you expect to get rewards instantly. And that is just not the case. Anyone living in the modern world who actually has to keep a job will tell you that. If anything, people assume that since you can get stuff done more quickly, that you can handle MORE work. Same struggles, same effort. Different forms. Of course, 5ET cannot be bothered to learn this. The point I'm trying to make (for those willing to learn something new), is that you can't judge from the outside perspective. You can't just look and say, "hah, he doesn't have to dig ditches all day, his life is so care free! He's just complaining for no reason!" Completely disagree. All too often, I stumble across the right thing at the right time on the net. If you are open to it, you'll receive it. If you are closed to it, it will find someone else. Universal principles should not be slowed because of the internet.

Well schools (and jobs for people fresh out of schools) are ultra competitive these days. If you aren't the best in everything, someone else is. If you are lacking in one area, there is someone else who isn't. That person is going to get your internship, your job, you scholarship, etc. If they have one more activity, or related job/internship than you, they have an edge. Free time spent doing something for yourself could be time put towards doing something you can put on your resume. It's a very practical minded approach. My mother was kind of the same- except she wouldn't make me do work on Friday afternoons or Saturdays. Sunday after 12 noon, however, games and tv turned off and it was time to do school work again. Most of the "tiger mom" stuff applied to my mom as well (except she was white). Funnily enough, she has more in common with all the Asian parents than anybody else Asian moms love my mom. But even with all that work (which I myself consider quite impressive considering all the literal blood, sweat, and tears- yes, academic related issues make you bleed, sweat, and cry), I'm STILL only barely average in this day and age. From my mom's perspective, it's just getting me to the point where I compete. If I choose not to, and instead go off and do some low paying job that I can just barely support myself because I'd rather do something like meditate, that's fine, she doesn't care. But she wanted me to be able to make the CHOICE. To CHOOSE not to do that. Rather than be FORCED to do that because I don't have any other options. Paradoxically enough, though, to even get those options you kinda have to not want to do anything else, 'cause any deviation and it's all over. It's the modern life.

This to mean SCREAMS a lack of personal experience with the current culture, and with the internet in general. In yang there is yin, in yin there is yang, right? Or are we forgetting some basic taoist philosophy? The internet has allowed an EXPLOSION in creativity and swapping of right brain ideas. Right brain inspiration has spurred on the left brain to create ways to further books right brain capabilities! If you don't see this, you aren't paying attention! No, but significant portions of your original post were in response to things I've said, or paraphrases of things that I've said in other threads. However, I am a member of the generation that you are referring to. Perhaps it'd be good to, I dunno, actually get the perspective of someone on the inside, find out what's really going on, as opposed to what you think is going on? Of course, if I'm still on the ignored user's list, you aren't hearing any of this! +10000 You could find ways to connect with and understand the current generation. You could get rid of preconceived notions about how things "should" be and instead look at how things "are". From this, you could ask yourself, "how can I work with how things ARE?" rather than asking yourself, "how can I take how things are, make them as I think they should be, and then work from that?" Right now you're adding an extra step that is unnecessary, and which is ultimately doomed to fail in most cases. You're asking people to go against the grain before they even start to learn. How about you work with what they know, rather than make them into something else before you even start? Of course, since I'm blocked you won't hear these suggestions. And since you've taken your little break, you won't hear anything. I don't know what you hoped to convey by this little stunt buuuuuuuuut it's not very productive, and the type of "say what you want and then run and hide" is not a very mature or respectful way of handling such an important discussion. This wording, to me, seems to mean that you think one of the generation's challenges is learning how to be like the old generation. Your priorities are a little bit messed up. If anything the new generation's challenges are to learn how to adapt healthfully into the current life situations they face. And that's applicable to EVERY generation. As others have pointed out, we aren't the first "problem generation". "Unfiltered truth"? HA. Says the dude who blocked someone who is presented ideas which challenge his own! To bad you block users when they take the same stance! The nerve he hit, if you insist that he did hit a nerve, was the "arrogant assumptions and ignorance" nerve. Not only has he made many generalizations and assumptions (which I have rebutted), he has made it clear that he is NOT INTERESTED in any sort of mature discourse. He is not interested in hearing the other side of the story. He is not willing to hear out and even attempt to connect with other perspectives. This rigid, disconnected, isolated stance is not going to get ANYWHERE. I daresay it's the root cause of many problems in the world- everyone comes into a certain situation, thinks they know what the problem is, thinks they have the solution, and will talk past everybody (including the people who are the target audience!) until they get their way! Perhaps it would serve people to look beyond just the words being said, look at the behavior, the attitude, the structure, the word choices, and most of all, look at the ASSUMPTIONS that his argument is based upon!

It is rigid to call a brick wall a threat to public safety just because a couple of morons decide to bang their heads against it, while the vast majority of the populace throw bouncy balls against it. To repeat my earlier statement, people are going to see what they want to see, regardless of fact. Take a deep breath and a couple of steps back from yourself, and peruse some of the articles about Cognitive Bias. I'm not quite following your math..... Computer game overuse is more than 2 hours of screen time per day. If you take the average of that sample (keep in mind that it is a SAMPLE), and you find that the average time is 14 hours per week, that's about 2 hours per day, which is at the furthest extreme of just acceptable. Any more over that is over use. During school semester/work week (during summer)? None. I don't have a game console or tv where I live. Only time I even get a chance to play these days is if I go to where my parents live, which is where my brother lives, so that's where the console is.

I'm not saying there is. Let's take it from the top: 5ET says that internet's instant gratification means people don't want to do any hard work anymore. But VCraigP says it started with television. So if your lifestyle was full of tv or internet, then you don't really understand hard work, or at least, you have to make significant changes to get it. It's a huge lifestyle change, because your lifestyle doesn't conform with it. Of course, the implication is that the lifestyle prior to internet and tv WAS about hard work. That somehow those living in the earlier days were more attuned to what "real" work was, knew how you really progressed. Knew that you couldn't just instantly have whatever you wanted. But let's take it a step even further back- some argue that as soon as the division of labor made it so that people didn't have to grow their own food, and that you could transport it vast distances (using various means of transportation), and then purchase it on a whim at first by barter, and then by money, that people were already living a (at the time, anyway) "instant gratification lifestyle". So the people criticizing the internet and television had their own lifestyle criticized by previous generations (of course the gap between those two was much larger, as innovations of technologies seem to be happening at a faster rate these days, but maybe we're just full of ourselves). In any case, the earlier technological/lifestyle generation could say "if you aren't farming it or hunting it yourself, and just buying from a market, you don't know what real work is! You just live a life of instant gratification!" And then take it even further back, to Socrates reportedly criticizing written language- he'd say we live a life of instant gratification because rather than memorizing and researching a body of knowledge, you can just read it! What utter laziness! To the pre-internet generation, we aren't doing work. To the pre-tv generation, tv watchers weren't doing work. To the pre-market system, merchant customers weren't doing real work. To the pre-alphabet people, writers weren't doing real work. Yet each generation arguably worked pretty damn hard! The form was different, but the input amount of work was not. Hard work is still hard work, and can't be replaced. You just can't just hard work by form.

And people wonder why nobody understands each other? I'm disappointed by this lack of effort Um, if I were really interested in doing that, then wouldn't I prove it by NOT studying with teachers? I mean, you know, to prove you could figure it out on your own? Oh, that means I'd have to get rid of all my books, 'cause, you know, that is technically learning from teachers too. I guess it's never crossed your mind that, I dunno, I'd train with teachers if I could, but since I can't, use what I have? But I guess getting to know where someone else is coming from isn't of interest to you. Oh boy. Odd and sad to hear that discussing with people who have different viewpoints, and learning their positions, causes drama for you...

Faster than anybody I know. Most of what he said is rehashed from stuff he's said in other threads, just condensed into one post, so I've been mulling over his points for quite a while. Thanks for asking No I do not. In fact, up in that post, I mentioned that there comes a point where you must actually DO stuff. And given that things like meditation and martial arts are about personal development, that's something YOU have to put forward, and it's only stuff that you can do, and you can't share that. The best you can do is lead someone to figure it out on their own. Of course, to do that, you have to understand them. What I DO think can be shared is the knowledge about what a teacher teaches, what is most likely (but not guaranteed) to happen from that, and how successful other people learn and perform the method. So things like the relative fighting ability that you can get from a certain martial arts system. You can't just download martial skill from the internet- you've got to cultivate it yourself. However, you CAN see whether or not someone is an effective fighter based on their performance which, thanks to modern video technology, can be shared. Quite the opposite- it seems to me (and I can't know for sure!) that 5ET has become disconnected from the reality of the modern world. He expects his fantasy to play in reality, where students will humbly come before him just as he humbly went before his teachers. That they'll be thankful that such a teacher is so easily accessible and open, and that they'll do work exactly as he did it. If they don't look like they're doing what he did, then they're obviously doing it wrong. When he doesn't see this, he becomes frustrated and bemoans the degradation of our society and this forum! Then he intimates that many advanced people have "quietly left", which seems to mean that rather than changing with the modern times, and adapting to shifting currents, they would rather stay stuck, fixated, and rigidly adhere to whatever they think "should be" the reality. Quite the opposite of tao. But what do I know? I've never had an in person teacher to tell me what tao is. I believed somewhere you missed the point of my descriptions about modern society. Perhaps like 5ET, you thought they were somehow excuses. They are not. I am merely attempting to illustrate (which is ultimately impossible, because culture is something you really have to live) that living conditions are different. Therefore, learning modalities are going to be different. Problems are going to be approached in different ways. What was a concern one year may not be a concern 10 years ago. What was once a given is no longer a given. There is no superiority or inferiority. There is only change, those able to change with that change, those unwilling (or unable) to change with that change. Those who will learn and understand new things, or those who will shut them out and down completely. Okay? When I'm 10 years older, have a degree and (hopefully) a steady job which will give me enough funds to move, then I'll move to where teachers are too. Since people seem to have such a hard time understanding abstractions, let me give you a little personal information- I have less than $1000 in my personal account. Money goes right through me and to college/necessity expenses. I have no contacts out of my home state. Any extra I tuck away and don't spend (no going out on the town, no buying video games) unless I have to- and that usually means travel (I don't have a car) for work or (hopefully this summer!) internship. Right now I am tied down, and that is because of the commitment I've made to getting an education and cultivating a solid resume to get a job so that I'll be affluent enough to travel and get in live, personal contact with the people I want to learn from. In the mean time, that means getting whatever material I can get my hands on, and practicing what I can on my own (with help from TTB's of course )

I don't know how old you are, or when you went to college, or where you went to college, or what you majored in, or if you even went to college, or if you stayed in college, or how much you have kept up with the educational (and job) system since your day. Thanks to increased globalization of the market (which includes things like information technologies), colleges and well paying jobs are much harder to get into and much harder to maintain. One of my professors was talking about some research that she did showing that 30 years ago people could get jobs with just a high school diploma which present, comparable jobs require at least an undergraduate degree if not a college degree. And thanks to that same internet that you are griping about, people are EXPECTED to be ready to work ALL THE TIME. Now that smartphones are saturating the pockets of most people in college (who are assumed to have the money for them since they are in college), which allow you to check e-mail and network with people, you're expected to be on call all. the. time. And guess what? If you aren't, there's someone else who is and they are going to get the job or internship over you. Which brings us back to that all important word: change. Different lifestyles necessitate a change in learning and a change in need. Why would you take time out to attend a week/weekend seminar when you can learn the same information from a book, practice on your own, and then attend a seminar to get fine tuned and learn things you otherwise couldn't? Now you might look at this and go "blah blah blah, excuses, humph, do some real work!" And my response is this: it's not an excuse, it's an appraisal of the current social terrain. People have to navigate through different issues and concerns, and that social terrain is important to how people develop in the learning and decision making process. If you don't understand their perspective, you aren't going to understand how they think. And if you don't understand how they think, you're never going to understand (and most likely, never respect) why it is they do certain things. And I think that is happening right now with you- you don't understand why certain people are doing certain things. All you know is it's not how you did it, it's not how you think it should be done, and, well, you are judging it down. But I don't blame you for it. Because if you don't LIVE the culture (be part of that generation), then you aren't going to get it. The next best thing is studying it (which some people do), but that involves keeping up with news, movies, music, games, internet, pop culture in general, social constraints (things like school, jobs, etc) laws and law enforcement (at what age can you move independently, etc). And that's a LOT of work. What complicates things is that society, and culture, is rapidly changing at an increasing rate. Technology is developing faster and faster. Society is changing faster and faster. It's not "this is the era of the iPhone", it's more like, "this is the business quarter of the iPhone". Because by next quarter, something else will be there. By next week, something else will have changed. Even at 21 I have trouble understanding and connecting with my 8, 9, and 10 year old cousins. THEY are the ones who ALWAYS have the internet. My family was always slow to buy new things (saving money, you know how it goes). I didn't have the internet until middle school. Never had cable (till I moved out and it was provided in my dorm, sweet!). My mom just got cable a few months ago when she moved into her apartment and it was included in the rent (which she tried to remove but couldn't! It was assumed to be a necessity). I didn't have a phone until junior year of high school, and didn't have my own computer until college. Neither myself, nor anyone in my immediate family has a flat screen television. Even though my family was pretty slow to get onto stuff, there are a lot of people in my generation who mirror myself. People born in late 80's early to mid 90's. People who were born in late 90's, early 2000's, THEY are the ones who have always been "connected" (at least if they are middle class). And even I have trouble understanding them! But guess what? I TRY! And I don't make assumptions about them just because I think they live a different lifestyle than I did! Sounds to me like some people just complain that people aren't making the same choices they made, or aren't making the choices that, in their opinions, are the "right" choices.... Assumptions and understandings (which are very much a part of the culture) change with the culture, which changes all the time. I can understand when I'm being referenced (or maybe it's just my internet ego!) but you are taking things out of context! It's not about "getting a medal", it's about finding out who is legit and who is not legit. When I make comments about what I've gone through to sift through the crap, it's just that: it's taken lots of time and money to swim through a bunch of crap! I specifically talk about this when talking about how some teachers would rather clam up and not say anything about legitimate methods, though their purported goal is to reach as many people as possible. While the legit teacher crosses his arms because "bah, what are dem kids doing with their internets-ma-bob-thingy", the local charlatan is setting up websites and rolling books off the shelves, getting people to learn "the next big thing". So when people do a google search, who comes up? The fraud, or the legit guy? The legit guy ain't even on the net! And the legit guys complain about how nobody is interested in learning real systems, or people are buying into new age fluff. Guess what? The legit guys are SLOW! They aren't getting there fast enough! They don't realize that things have CHANGED, and they have not changed WITH the times! They are living "back in their day" when everyone else is "living in the present"! And in the present, people do a damn google search! If you don't like that, okay. Fine. Just stop complaining about it. [sarcasm]Nooooooo.... REALLY????[/sarcasm] You're a bit late to the party. Everyone sacrifices and adapts. They just do it in different ways. I have read theorists who argue that as soon as we invented cars and railways that our society lost its ability to survive under dire consequences, because food production was so far removed from the populace, and unless you know how to grow your own crops, hunt your own animals, and prepare everything accordingly, not to mention find the appropriate materials to build something from scratch, and learn the weather well enough to know when it was going to drastically changed....... well, let me put it this way: even the pre-internet people would likely have a hard time! Sounds to me like they've lost, and been unwilling to make a new, connection with the next generation. You just can't talk to new people the same way as you can the old people, and you can't expect new generations to behave with the same standards as older generations. It is just flat out unreasonable! Especially with culture and society changing faster and faster. It's impossible to keep up! But doesn't mean you should just quit because nobody is going to do it the way you would/did do it. It means you gotta pull your head out of the sand and realize that things change, and if you can't adapt, well, figure the rest out yourself. I find it sad that "real teachers" and "old timers" get frustrated and quit just because they can't learn to adapt to the changing social environments. Way to have a positive attitude.

Statements like this surprise me. I notice them a lot. To me, they reflect a resistance to change. Maybe it is off base for me to say so, but it's just what I'm noticing. Let me explain something about the "internet" generation- it's about independence. With the internet, you can find things out for yourself. If you are having a problem, you don't have to go down to a local whatever and pay for someone to fix it for you. Instead, you can look up a tutorial on how to do it yourself. Because so many people can come together for such a cheap price, ideas can be swapped freely and openly. You can cut straight through the bullshit- is a product or a procedure full of crap? Let us hear of your experiences! Get the story straight from the horse's mouth! Now as with all change, there are good and bad points to it. The good point is that practical knowledge and effective techniques can become widespread. You see this with open source software- the best people putting together the best packages. Something that was cheap or free doesn't have to be low quality, in fact, it could mean BETTER quality because users are making it because they WANT to, not because they have to, and if their product sucks, it won't be used. And you can see that many open source software rivals that of even professional software! Now some bad points are that doing it yourself can actually wind up harming you if you don't take the appropriate precautions, get all the information, and don't know when to ask for help. Now as for this example: Might I suggest that his financial situation actually WAS tight? And that he really only wanted enough to be able to learn on his own? Think about that for a bit- once you know how to do something, why would you need to keep paying for something? Most of my practices come from books or DVD, and I LOVE that. Why? It's a one time purchase. If I have problems, I either consult the text, or work it out on my own. I don't have to keep paying just so I can show up to a place to do stuff in front of someone else. Let me go do my thing, if I have a problem, I'll let you know. If I don't, well why not let me do that thing? Which brings me back to the topic of internet and communities, namely The Tao Bums! There are a lot of very high level people here who can really give you a lot of perspective on issues that you might be facing. It's fantastic. At least, I like it. I think you are confusing "internet generation" with "selfish" people in general, and I have to vehemently object to this! At my university, I see it when people from upper class families interact with the lower class workers- they look down on them, speak roughly on them, and get all pissed when the worker doesn't do things just right (and sometimes that includes being visible during the day!) It's not about the internet, it's about a fundamental lack of understanding and respect for the work of others, and that is independent of the internet. Now, to a certain extent, this is a valid point. There comes a point in time where you have "read the manual" enough times, you understand the theory, and now you have to do it. And that's just one learning style. Some people learn by doing, and picking up the theory as they go. Some people like to get a feel for the territory, have "talked it through" a couple of times before jumping in, and like to go slow. There is nothing wrong with that, it's just a different approach. The internet and other information technologies supports the style in which you research first and do later. And sometimes you can get to an extreme where you never actually do. But I must stress that it is an EXTREME. It's a different style, and if that's not you, so be it. Just don't look down on a different personality because it's not what you do. I don't have any experience with this bit, so I can't really comment on it.

None. Just books, DVD's, and personal experience. It's must be my sagacious wisdom! Well when you aren't from an affluent family, and have to work to support yourself to live and/or go to college to cultivate a career so you DO have money to travel around, well, gallivanting across the country (world?) just isn't always a possibility. I object to your word choice (bolded). Your attempts to trivialize my position do nothing to refute them. It's not a sense of entitlement- it's about educating yourself about the issues. Why would you spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars traveling in person to see if someone has got the goods, when some simple internet searches and surveys can tell you if they've done the deeds they claim? Why would you rely on unsubstantiated rumors of martial prowess, when there are terrorists in caves in the middle of Afghanistan who can figure out how to upload a video to youtube!? People don't, and shouldn't have to, go into things blind. It doesn't mean that people lose reverence for legitimate teachers and lineage, quite the opposite- once they know of a teacher's legitimacy, they can pursue their study and practice with no doubt in their minds! I don't appreciate the assumptions you are making. Job and college are taking up most of my time. Once I'm able to secure a job so that I can support myself and a living arrangement, I'm sure you can figure out how I'm going to spend my vacation time. Until I do that, it's get whatever money I can, and put that to college, and try to get a good job. 100's of dollars for travel and 100's of dollars for seminars is just not feasible for me right now, and hasn't been for most of my life. Sorry I'm not "doing enough" for you, but for people who can't hop on a plane or their car and travel cross country (or continent) to find a master of reputed skill, having access to the internet and books which can educate and inform about someone, as well as instruct in methods, is really, REALLY awesome, and it's the only way that some people have of verifying someone's legitimacy. And when you hear a bunch of people saying, "I've seen/done such-and-such, it was really awesome, but I can't put it on video, my energy will disrupt the recording, you have to see it irl, believe me, it's so amazing, science can't even explain it, but you know, I can't prove it, but it's beyond words, but seriously, I can knock people out while hardly touching them... but the gov't would abduct me if they found this out.....", then, uh, well, your BS detector starts to go off, because if their claims were true, it'd be really, really easy to prove, even via online, yet they aren't.... hmmm..... Open access to information and the ability to verify it through your own research on the internet has dramatically helped those who don't otherwise have the means to obtain information. There is now a balancing out of information, it's not so one sided that students go before a teacher and have absolutely no idea about anything before they seek instruction. I'm sure someone can (and will) counter with an empty cup parable, but why would you wait for someone else to remove a blindfold from you when you can just take it off yourself? “Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.” - Jack Handey Guess what, 5ET? I still have my shoes.....

When I was 13 I went and joined a karate school, because I thought "karate was karate". The teachers talked in a way that made it look like they knew karate (complete with the whole "bah, you can't learn to fight from books and video, you need a competent, real life instructor! Like me!". They dressed the part. They acted the part. Dojo had a nice atmosphere. They talked about the virtues and the tradition and blah blah blah....... but they never actually taught karate. Despite all of their self defense rhetoric, they never even thought something that actually WORKED. I didn't find this out until 16, after two years of dumping 5-6 nights a week training in, the best thing I got out of that was being in shape and having lots of bad habits. If I had done a little research (for instance, via the internet), I've have found out that the place wasn't exactly what they said it was, that the teacher wasn't exactly who he said he was, and that his tradition wasn't exactly as glorious as he said it was. Oh, and the karate wasn't exactly as they said it was either! I spent a lot of time and money to get something that wasn't what I wanted. I could have gotten better results cheaper working out somewhere else. I could have learned more effective moves cheaper someone else. We live in an age with options. You aren't just limited to your small town dojo anymore, and public library with whatever zen meditation books you can get. Of course, that also means that the frauds are better. That their rhetoric sounds just like the rhetoric coming out of legitimate teachers' mouth. So how do you separate the frauds from the real deal? SUBSTANCE! Which one has SUBSTANCE! And how do you gauge substance (without spending 2-5 years training with someone only to realize they were a fraud the whole time)? You look at them, their accomplishments, their skills, their lineage, their students, their students' skills, reviews, etc etc. While I appreciate and understand the message you are saying, you are being awfully generous in assuming inherent equality within all practices- you can legitimately waste your time and money, when a little bit of investigation would turn up whether that art is worth giving that amount of dedication to. Why would you dedicate your time to something which isn't going to respect that which is given? Don't assume people are nice. Don't assume all practices will give you rewards. Be careful about who you give your time and your money to. Do your research before starting a practice. There's a point in which intellectualizing will just lead you in circles, but until you get to that point, nothing wrong with researching. Not to put too fine a point on it, but things are a lot different. Not better or worse, just different But that's the opinion of a young 21 year old, I wasn't even around during the old days anyway

It's not inherently unconscious/subconscious- it's just many people are not consciously aware of when they do it, when others do it, etc etc. If you ask them to explain how they knew a girl was flirting with them, a lot of people couldn't do it. However, if you were to ask guys and girls who were seasoned at picking up girls or guys, I'm sure they'd be a lot more aware of it, because their lifestyle depends on their ability to do so. And like I said- it's not inherently "secretive" or "manipulative", because you are SUPPOSED TO KNOW THEM!!! If you don't know them, then you either 1) have not had enough social interaction 2) have a brain which has not developed in the areas which would help you pick up these cues, and getting diagnosed by a professional will help you figure this out. Non, it seems like you have a lot of issues and preconceived notions. It sounds like you've gotten into some trouble and been burned in the past because of the issue of social cues, and that, in turn, has fed a lot of your ideas which, in my humble opinion, are pretty extreme and far off the mark. Cut the bullshit about "well what if I don't want to live in this society" and "I know I'm right and everyone else is sick and perverted" blah blah blah- these thoughts are nowhere near the reality, and though in SOME sub-groups, may hold water, they are in NO WAY applicable to ALL women, ALL society, in any way, which you repeatedly seem to think there are. You need help. You need to change your life. What you've been doing is obviously not working. Well, I'm not saying that all women are like that. I've said this over and over again, but there are as many variation as there are women and men (sometimes more, as tastes and attitudes change!). As to your experience, well, I mentioned that in a past post as well- people don't like to admit it. Which is why Jeremy's little experience with "directness", as fun and entertaining as I'm sure it was, wasn't very productive. People don't LIKE being handled directly. They don't like to hear the truth, even if they are cognizant of it themselves (and sometimes they aren't). Everybody plays to society's expectations (well maybe not EVERYBODY, but a lot). Even if they know they are lying, even if they know everyone else is doing it, rarely do they ever speak to that- they play the role. In my experience, it's only AFTER you've been playing the game with someone that they start to open up. When the hot, popular girls open up about their insecurities, when they begin to open up about your hobbies like, say, qigong (after they've had plenty of time to study you and make sure it really DOES give positive benefits). So, yeah, telling a girl everything like that over coffee, not so good an idea. Telling a girl stuff like that piece by piece over several cups of coffee after several months of a serious relationship- I'm sure you could have a good dialogue about that. We are listening, but your problem isn't that there's a problem with society- your problem is that you've got a problem with society, and you don't seem to want to do anything about it, or yourself. You keep saying you don't want to be a part of the problem filled society, but at the same time you complain about how you're too yin, about how you are "forced" into certain roles by society (the celibate 25 year old), and about how it's not the kind of life you want to live, but at the same time you don't want to play by society's rules, but then get all sad cuz people judge you down for that. So, non: what do you want?

Nothing If you are insinuating that that's the path that Non is trying to live, I encourage you to examine his posts and behavior more clearly- he is clearly not at peace with himself, with his lifestyle, with the world at large, or with separating from it. I am merely trying to suggest ways in which he can reconcile his current self with the world, and who can help him with that, because what he's been doing has obviously not been working.

Well sometimes your body just moves. Think of it kind of like stretching. Get some movement and stimulation in certain muscles. Or I guess it might have been something like, "why is there so much semen in here? *squeeze*". That you were reading a spiritual book is just a coincidence. Or maybe you were thinking of how spiritual your retention practices are, you subconsciously put your awareness down there, and involuntarily squeezed. Nothing to worry about. These kinds of experiences like these are why I think most retention practices are pretty silly- it all comes out in the end.

don't feel pathetic, feel good, because you are so manly that you just can't contain yourself! But seriously, when you go through that type of arousal, the semen starts wanting to come out. Part of what causes ejaculation is during orgasm, certain muscle groups contract in such a way as to propel the semen out. If you are aroused but don't ejaculate then and there, the semen is ready to come out. And, throughout the day, if you engage the right muscles (deliberately or not) the semen is going to come out. This can happen during urination, exercise, stretching, taking a dump, walking, etc. You just got a bunch of semen, and it won't be contained!

So it's like, you masturbate, but don't ejaculate? Or it's like, you don't do any sort of stimulation?

Are you doing any sort of retention practice?

Well it all depends on your perspective, what's important to you, and your level of maturity and decision making process. The whole child development thing is a pretty complex issue, because people have different values- my uncles were all very physical and so my cousins always HAD to be outside or playing sports or something. When I'd go visit them, we'd all get kicked outside, because kids are supposed to be outside exploring. What usually wound up happening is that we'd sit on the low branches of a tree, and do nothing for 2-3 hours when we were allowed to come back inside. But my parents focused more on the educational side of things, less on the physicality, so on the weekends we could pretty much do what we wanted. Sometimes we'd just play video games. But sometimes we'd ride our bikes or scooters around the neighborhood. I got into tae kwon do and karate, so I would go to that as a kid- and part of the inspiration for that was all of the tv and video games I got to play, I wanted to be like a power ranger! So they can reinforce one another. Very interesting view indeed, but I think his opinion of "social games" is pretty limited. Not every game in which you team up with your friends is necessarily a social game. Think of first person shooters were you can team up with your friends and accomplish stuff. Now there are a few things that can only be unlocked with ungodly amounts of time and work- but those of that is aesthetic, and has no real gameplay effect, it's just a status symbol like, "hey, I got 20,000 kills on my player profile!" so if you ignore stuff like that, those types of games are pretty easy to pick up and put down. Now if you get into things like World of Warcraft, it's a slightly different story. While you get plenty of casual gamers on that, it's easy to get sucked into the uber competitiveness of the game, and have to dedicate lots of time to it, so for a game like that, this guy may certainly have a point. But that can hardly be attributed to all games, or even just the mainstream games. There's as much variation in games as there is in movie and book genres. I highly suggest to anyone interested in a different type of game, to check out "The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind". Great game. Non-linear, sandbox style role playing game. Massive world (takes place on a fairly large island). Dozens of towns, dozens of quests, hundreds of NPC's. Different ways to finish different quests. You don't have to do anything. You could just explore the world. Of course, you can "live" in the world, and it's quite easy to get sucked in there (and many people do!), but it really is quite excellent, and quite different from just your run of the mill "shoot everything in sight!" (though there are some parts like that).

Seriously though? Men have been contemplating the mysteries of women for centuries. Some women have joined in the fun purposefully, and played it to their advantage. Some women wonder why men are so thick that they just don't get that it's so appallingly obvious. And while some never manage to get into long term, fulfilling relationships, plenty of others have somehow found ways to connect significantly with others. You aren't. There are lots of other people who are in the same boat as you. Some of them get help and get something done about it. Some of them refuse to get help, and wallow in their own misery. People have been saying that for years.

Like I said, if you have to read it in a book, study it, and attempt to figure it out, you're doing it wrong. It happens naturally through social interaction. If it doesn't, it means you're either lacking in social interaction, or your brain is wired differently so that learning these things doesn't come as easily. If it's the former, you should get out more. If it's the latter, a professional can help you figure it out.

Some are like that. Some aren't.

You misunderstood what I meant by "shared". I said that these cues are not deception, because the idea is that if a girl is flirting with you, you're supposed to know that she's flirting, and flirt back. The meaning is not conveyed through the words. She's not lying to you, because you get her meaning. But the cues are not universal. Different people flirt differently. Some people don't flirt. Some people are rather serious with their words. So actions are not UNIVERSAL. In one instance, a certain action might be a social cue to mean something else. In another instance, it could be a quite literal message. And then some women just want an honest, no bullshit relationship. Yes, it's bs, because science is not telling you that they wall want to be dominated that's funny! But the same could be said for most people. They are just acting out social scripts, pre-made sets of behavior for how to behave in any given social situation. "Ah, I'm at work, I should behave as an employee does in this situation. Oh, now I'm at Church, better put on my religious self. Now I'm at the club, time to be the party person!"