Sloppy Zhang

That sounds wonderful. But not a lot that could be proven, and not a lot that you could claim is exclusive to Kunlun, or even of meditation/energy practices in general (athletes and divers breathe differently as well). Not to take away anyone's accomplishments. I'm just trying to point out that if you're pitching a system that is supposed to be an earth shattering big deal.... well, earth shattering results would be neat. So now we come full circle to the anecdotal evidence not being much good when trying to offer evidence. And a lot of people have gone back and deleted posts. Statements like this sadden me, because all too often (and I feel like now is one of those cases), it usually goes something like, "I don't like to talk about my experiences... okay, well if you push me, I'll say amazing things happen, you disappear, your clothes get removed, you don't have to eat, your breathing gets better, psychic vision opens up, and you are in a constant state of bliss... oh, prove it? Well you know, I don't like to talk about my practices." People are, too often, all too willing to talk when you aren't asking for some evidence. As soon as you ask them to back up what they say, closed go the lips. I never specific any length of time. I am questioning whether these feats can be accomplished AT ALL. Is there any person AT ALL that can do those things and actually have them verified? Getting to the point where you can do that could take 90 seconds or 90 years. 90 lifetimes, even. It's not about how long you get there, it's where "there" even exists to get to! That's nice. So there is someone, at least one, who's done it? Did that someone have students? Did they have at least one student to do it? It's like, if I ask if someone can run a marathon, and people just respond, "well it takes a lot of training." and I ask, "okay, but can someone run a marathon?" and people just say, "don't expect someone to be able to do it after one weekend of training." That doesn't answer the question. Again: it's not about the length of time, it's whether what we're considering is even possible, and of the people who can supposedly do it, what evidence do we have that they can actually do it? Apparently Max won't go to a hospital because his body is so super it'd be confiscated to be used for researched purposes. The other sketchy thing is that if you take down an MRI, not only do you quell any random haters trash talking it, you also prevent legitimate third party sources from reviewing the MRI and actually seeing if it means what Max and company says it means. That's the nasty thing about censorship. I, for one, think it's odd that a bunch of people who are so at peace with themselves would take down valuable information just because people start "blabbering nonsense". Seems far more prudent to keep it open, and let the FACTS speak for themselves, as in, "this is legitimately saying what we say that it says, and it's been verified by so-and-so". Well that depends if you can turn into it at will (as in, "you're ready any time" as I have heard described towards Max), or if it just randomly happens, and in either case, if you can keep coming back and sticking around (as I would imagine to be the case with the Golden Dragon Body, as I've heard it described on these forums). If it's the latter case, well, whoever sees it sees it. But again, if you could stick around, you could go around showing your shiny new body to people. You know, like, "hey, take a picture of me", "oh look, the photo is all white!" and go up to some scientists, and they're all like, "whoa, your body is all photons! High energy ones too! How are they maintaining their structure? Wow, how did you do that?" And if you can do it at well, well, go down to your friendly neighborhood research laboratory, get yourself all set up with stuff to take your pulse, measure brain waves, monitor the types of waves that are around at the time, then -POOF- now you're light, and everyone's sitting there going "wtf??" And then you pop back with your golden dragon body, and say, "lololololololol"

The history and lineage has been debated in a lot of threads, names dropped, history poured over. I believe that Ralis has taken part in lots of those discussions, so I think he is well aware of the facts. As I asked in another post: what do you mean by efficacy? What's the threshold? Feeling good? Bliss? Feeling more open minded? Being at peace? Not only are these incredibly subjective and hard to verify, it's also difficult to point to the origin of those feelings. Did you start to feel that way because you practiced Kunlun, or because you quit hanging out with your deadbeat friends so that you could practice, and as a result feel less bogged down? Not to mention that a bit of weed and some masturbation could make you feel pretty damn relaxed and chill. Compare this to turning invisible, transcending this world, and then coming back as an immortal in your Golden Dragon Body. It'd be pretty easy to verify, not subjective, and if you shared the method, could be verified by other practitioners. Anecdotal evidence doesn't really help.... I mean, there's a unicorn outside my window. I vow for the veracity of the statement. How much does this help? (will come back to the unicorn below) Lol, well if you want to get down to it, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claims. If someone claims they have a system that can lead to immortality or enlightenment or liberation or whatnot, things outside the normal realm of human experience, it really is on them to provide evidence. Otherwise people would have to go everywhere to personally validate everything they hear which is beyond normal expectation. Each person would have to come to visit me personally, to see where the unicorn is. It could have flown away, and they'd have to see what's the deal with me, if I was trustworthy, or find some other evidence. Now compare this to if I actually went out and gathered up all the evidence for there being a unicorn, and put it out there. People could just look at the evidence and it'd be there. Now not having proof doesn't automatically invalidate a claim. But it is kind of sketchy for someone to be saying lots of things, making lots of claims (including things about himself which could easily be proven), and then not ever backing them up, or having someone else back them up. I mean, just think of me coming up with some explanations to cover for the fact that there's no way I can prove it, and then charging money for people to come and get trained to see a unicorn..... Well before the cash starts flowing in, I'm going to let you all know that I deliberately misled you for the purpose of argument. There is no unicorn, and there never was. You've got to weigh new information with what you already know. Photo manipulation techniques are rather commonplace, and easy to do with a bit of training. Seeing as how you don't see people disappearing in real life, and how there aren't any accurate reports of humans dematerializing that are from verified sources, well, perhaps we should look at Occam's razor, and not unnecessarily add extra elements to the situation. Until we are presented with evidence which rules out other conclusions, it is much more likely that photo manipulation techniques (which are quite well known and established) were used rather than someone turning invisible (which is an extraneous factor, that is not a part of the set of most human experiences, and would have to be added and confirmed for us to believe that). Again, we compare what we see now to what we've seen in the past. Overzealous students have certainly got up to some things that turned out to not quite be the way they seemed..... If you were going to call them "displays of powers", then you'd have to actually verify that they were, in fact, powers. So far all we can say are "displays". Displays of what? Displays of powers? Displays of human suggestibility? Displays of photo editing skills? We need to verify.

Exaggerating someone's position (kinda like to make a strawman argument) is not particularly helpful towards finding a solution, nor is it respectful. I don't think most reasonable people would make the claim that a system needs to be 100%, that a teacher must be infallible, or that they don't have any responsibility for what they practice and who they train with. But it's a two way street. Students put in lots of time and money in order to afford events, travel to events, and take time out of their day in order to practice, despite the fact that for the most part, there are very few things that will come about it (you'd probably get more direct benefits learning a foreign language to advance in your job than you'd get meditating all day- because let's face it, there are plenty of ways besides meditation to relax, calm down, and psycho analyze yourself). Those students trust their teachers to be honest. They trust their teachers to know what they are talking about, to help them on the path, and to be able to point things out to them when stuff goes wrong, or when the student can do things better. It's not outside of reason to your teacher to be reasonably competent in their field, and to be able to prove it. There are plenty of boxing coaches who are much better coaches than boxers. If the guy can't show evidence of his own track record, it'd sure be nice if he could show some evidence of past successful students before I hand over my money and get into a serious training regiment. There is nothing unreasonable about asking the same for spiritual teachers. I don't think many people go to a teacher expecting them to disappear or levitate- it's not within the bounds of experience, so probably not within their expectation. Now if a teacher starts saying they can disappear or levitate for a long time, keeps on saying this is a result of the practice (even if it's not the goal), well, you'd think that SOMEWHERE down the line SOMEONE would DO it. That it'd happen. That people outside a small circle of die-hard believers would see it. And when you don't, and when you hear a lot of convenient excuses for why it doesn't happen.... well, it doesn't really inspire confidence. And someone could feel as right as rain, and as happy as can be after a practice, but it doesn't go vary far in substantiating any of the claims about levitation, invisibility, or stuff like that (which in some cases, are made very seriously, and are meant to be taken seriously). You can talk all you want about how it's not about powers, but about inner peace and wisdom.... well, guess what? The word "powers" are being dropped. If you say, "it's not about powers. It's about wisdom, healing, and enlightenment. Powers are a side effect." You pretty much just said that SOMEWHERE down the line, powers manifest. Okay, so WHERE ARE THEY? That's the kind of thing that gets people to raise an eyebrow, to inquire, and, after years of unanswered questions and unsubstantiated claims, become quite disbelieving towards. Mocking their position doesn't help.

Well, it's titled "Mormon lessons...." so let's not forget to include that important little piece of context. Now see here's the funny thing that happens so much- men seem to think women think a certain way, so they act a certain way. Conversely, women think that men think a certain way, so they act a certain way. What's funny is that all too often, this is pitched and reaffirmed by members of the same sex (guys reinforce the thoughts of other guys, rather than asking women, women reinforce the thoughts of other women, rather than asking men). So you wind up with the two sexes actually looking past each other at some fictional "reality". The reality doesn't even have to be something enjoyable like a fantasy, it could be some ignorance misconception about how the other sex thinks. I just remember I was in a class focusing on how people are sexualized through the media, some girl had brought in a bunch of women's magazines, and was reading stuff that women were suggesting for how to "get a man". And all the men in the class were like, "uh.... most of this stuff sounds made up. Guys really don't care one way or the other about some of that stuff." But women are told (mostly by other women!) that men DO think in a certain way, so they should buy such-and-such product, such-and-such fashion, and whatnot. So it's all messed up one way or the other. And now for some humor!

Well I'd be interesting in seeing what's there to see. What I do seem to recall is the changing story regarding exactly what Max learned from/taught to Jenny Lamb, where who spontaneous movement fits into it. Different people will tell differently about who contributed what, how much, and where it all came from. It's all very interesting.

Yes, but at the same time, you don't get very far by saying, "I know because I just know and you can't prove me wrong." Over the years we have developed a lot of methods and means by which we can come to learn and teach various things. These methods and means have come about because most of us don't have the penchant for reading peoples' minds, to suddenly know stuff without being told, and things like that. Some of these systems have been called various things throughout the times, like logic, and rationality. We come to be able to prove things through debate, offering evidence for our position, and things of that sort. It's the social norm, a convention which we all (or at least, most of us) know and take part in pretty much every day in our lives. One can recognize it as a convention. One can choose not to take part in the convention. But that doesn't mean that the convention is without value, or that we should look down on that convention or hold up some other means of convention as the "better" one, simply because we either can't/won't succeed by working within that convention.

There's a lot of fluidity when it comes to wordplay. Different people define "skeptic" differently depending on how they want to use it. The definition I most often associate with skepticism is: Looking at the facts and withholding a judgment until all of the facts are carefully reviewed. The arrival of new facts means appraising the situation once more, had a judgment already been reached in the past. It is just as dangerous to blindly believe as it is to blindly disbelieve.

From what I've read in a couple other traditions, spontaneous movement is a recognized component of cultivation. Nothing inherently bad about it.

Yes, especially when all it would take to settle the matter is some reliable verification of the claims After that, if anyone asks, or brings the topic up again, you can send them some FACTS not fiction. It's too bad that I can't think of a successful model in which this has worked.... oh, that's right, I can. Head over to the bullshido forums, go to the traditional martial arts section, and start bashing tai chi. If you aren't flamed out of there for being an idiot, someone may be kind enough to point you to the past threads in which they've investigated tai chi practitioners who actually train it to be used in fights, as well as post links to videos showing clear applications of tai chi moves in sanshou. It used to be people thought it was just some dance, then some people proved them wrong, and now anybody who comes in there thinking otherwise is quickly shown the FACTS not fiction. None of this "well it worked for me, just believe me" or, "it'll only work if you believe it'll work", or something like that.

Hmm.... I dunno how much I buy that. Perhaps in a limited setting, I'll agree with you. You know, like if it's me discussing with friends. In a more formal setting, yeah, even if you swear that "you saw it with your own eyes", I don't think anyone can deny that that boils pretty much down to hearsay evidence. A forum is tricky. There are informal elements and there are more formal elements. There are certainly members here who have displayed a bit of rationality, credibility, honesty, and reliability. But at the same time, there are a lot of people here, and it's hard to know someone well enough on a forum to make that kind of decision in a broader context. Serial killers hide very well in real life, who's to say how well a serial liar can hide out on the internet? To that extent, when discussing something major, like, say, I dunno, Kunlun, people who are supposedly enlightened, people who supposedly have some kind of spiritual abilities...... you know, the stuff that contradicts not only significant portions of personal experience, but also scientific inquiry.... well, I'd prefer to stick to verifiable facts, rather than someone who I know kinda well but also not so kinda well from the internet who says, "no, seriously, you can trust me." No offense to anybody. I like most everyone here but..... well, don't blame someone for adding a grain of salt here or there. [edit] And as an aside, as someone who is not involved with kunlun (I did buy the book, but passed it off to a friend), but who nevertheless has followed it with great interest, I don't see anything too particularly inflammatory about any of taotongue's posts. I'm quite.... surprised? at the degree and types of responses from some of the people here who have reacted to it...

Yes but see that's the problem- you can put as many givens as you like, those givens are poorly, if ever, defined. What is the requisite level of training? What are the benchmarks? Feeling happy? Being in bliss for at least 2 hours? Having healed a certain number of peoples' cancer? Having a coffee cup fall through your disappearing arm? Who are the people who are energetically open enough? I'm sure there are a few you could think of. Now how do they get that way? How do you know that they are that way? If they can heal, let's see them heal. If coffee cups have trouble staying in their hand, well then let's see that. My point, and the point I think many skeptics keep trying to make, is that things like this are quite easily provable. It's quite easy to move stories like this from "hearsay" into "verified fact". So.... why don't we? There are lots of reasons excuses for why they can't/don't (world is not ready, power lines are a bother, etc etc)..... but, well, it just seems silly. There are people out there marketing their system and relaying stories about Golden Dragon Body and other types of craziness, yet the only people who are willing to step forward in support of that system (who aren't marketing the system) don't really have any ways of verifying any of that, and only talk about feel good, amorphous concepts. Now that's not to say that those things aren't good. But let's hold people to their word here: if someone says they can manifest some high energy, super rare thing, and still come back to our plane of existence, let's see that. Because that's well beyond our normal scope of experiences and scientific knowledge, there would need to be some evidence before that to be believed. And if you can't/won't actually demonstrate, well, at the VERY least you can understand how and why people will treat that claim skeptically given the evidence at their disposal. At the most, you could refrain from making claims like that part of your marketing strategy, it smacks of dishonesty and exploitation at the very worst, and at the very best, misdirection.

I have a pet theory- if it's real, then it's real. If you do it right, then it happens. Sounds a bit circular? Here's an easy one- gravity. We don't really know how or why it works. We just know that it does. If I approach dropping a bowling ball with skepticism, it's pretty damn likely that that bowling ball is going to drop. A lot of scientific studies and personal experience have confirmed this. Now sometimes a scientific inquiry will refute something that one predicts due to their experiences (like objects with different masses falling with the same speeds, you may not think so at first, but that's due to some of the conditions of most peoples' personal experiences). Now my theory is that energy and spiritual phenomena should work the same way. If it is legitimately real, then as long as you go through the process properly, even if you are skeptical, then it should work. The proof of the pudding, as they say, should be in the eating! The practice should make you a believer- you shouldn't have to be a believer in order for the practice to work. That is the EXACT sort of rhetoric that I am talking about- the kind that shuts down questions and dissent from the ranks. Because if you ask questions, it implies you are a bad student and not gonna get anywhere. And that is just not cool. On top of that, I haven't seen any of the believers able to back up any of their words with actions. Just more rhetoric about how you should be more open minded, about how powers and abilities aren't the goal, about how you feel really nice and la la la.... Once again, there are claims being made which, if true, could easily be verifiable. How about we verify them? What is there to lose? What, people would actually believer you BEFORE handing over their time and money to a practice? Yikes, how unreasonable! [/sarcasm]

Well it has to do with respecting, and then understanding the other person's position. I'm all for humor, I'm all for laughs. Laughing and humor is a great way to lighten the mood, and keep people from getting bogged down. But there reaches a point where it becomes unnecessary. Where you can look at something seriously, and not get bogged down. And I think that that's REALLY the point. But who am I the teacher of? Nobody, so there you have it. The point is, I see this a lot in threads with the purpose of investigating various people who purport to have various "powers". The skeptic group says, "I'm not sure this is true because of A, B, and C." The believer group responds, "oh, haha, you just don't understand, A is really this, B is their personality, and C is part of the teaching style, it's all in good fun, hahaha!" And the skeptic responds, "well A isn't really this, because that is contradicted by this past statement, B should have no bearing on the facts of the situation, and C has not actually produced the rumored effect, unless you can prove otherwise." And the believers respond, "well now your head is just in the sand! You're just a hater! Boo on the hater!" It's like... it just seems that the believer side routinely fails to fundamentally even ACKNOWLEDGE the argument. They talk past the points, and just throw out whatever rhetoric they have at their disposal (in the case of Max, you could refer to the whole "coyote" thing). And when you do that, you aren't ever going to get anywhere, because if you don't properly acknowledge the other position, it leads to a lack of respect, which leads to a breakdown in communication, and it leads to a bunch of threads talking about the same topic. You'd think that "The Max Christensen Facts Not Fiction Thread" would have more.... well, FACTS. What are the FACTS. Not the rhetoric, not the personal beliefs, not the feelings. What are the FACTS? I don't think those have really properly been addressed.

But at the same time, if you make light of serious subjects, well, that's no good either!

Well see now we run into what "legitimacy" means, and what "results" means. Because there's the legitimacy of "I learned from so-and-so, who learned from so-and-so, this is my lineage", and then there's the "my shit gets results". And then there is "results". What are results? We hear stories of the Golden Dragon Body, people disappearing in coffee shops, Max being able to cross over any time, and with the Golden Dragon Body you can come back, but for some reason Max doesn't want to cross over because of..... I dunno, powerlines? I seem to remember there being a power line issue at some seminar that got brought up in one of the old threads. In any case, there have been threads that have investigated the first kind of legitimacy. Finding his teachers, cross checking dates, looking at old photographs. I don't know what the results of those were. Then there have been threads about the other type of legitimacy, the "does it get results?" and "what are the results", these also run in circles because, well, no one has really defined results. Perhaps it's just me and my skeptic mindset, but when I hear someone say that Max and/or Kan can disappear, or manifest the Gold Dragon Body at will, and then I hear someone say, "the practice works", that to me says, "here's another person who can disappear/manifest the GDB". But if all that person has to show for it is an openness to the universe, good feelings, bliss states and all that..... well, I'm sure a lot of people can get to that same place with a couple ounces of pot and a bit of masturbation. That's a far cry from disappearing and the whole Golden Dragon Body, huh? Now you're free to make the claim that wild stories of powers and abilities didn't draw you in, that those aren't what you're seeking, that they aren't what you've experienced, that those aren't your goal or aren't the ultimate goal. Okay, that's fine.... but that doesn't negate the fact that wild claims HAVE been made, that they CONTRADICT not only many a person's personal experience, but also the accumulated experience of scientific experimentation across centuries. The only similarity that some of these claims have with anything that is present in most of our lives is.... well.... fiction. The drama comes from the frequent marketing of oranges, but if you ask anybody to produce an orange, the most they produce is an apple. And they're like, "where's the orange?" and the only response they get is, "an apple a day keeps the doctor away, what's not to like about that?" It's like, you said you had an orange, give the people a fucking orange! And don't complain when they try to find out where the heck their orange is!

You are speaking like someone who is on the inside. Perhaps you should reposition yourself, and try to see the world through the eyes of someone who isn't a firm believer, and who treats with skepticism claims that significantly differ from the realm of common and scientific experience and knowledge. A variety of tales have circulated about Max, his abilities, the abilities of his students, and the abilities granted by his system. A variety of tales have been circulated about his teachers and his tradition. One of the ways that con artists and scammers make their money is by creating the illusion of legitimacy- they get all the trappings, they tell all the tales, but don't offer anything of substance- and they don't HAVE to, because people buy their shit because it SEEMS right. The difference between a fraud and a legitimate person, is that the legitimate person was there when they said they were, their teachers were who they say they were, and the story "checks out". A lot of investigative threads have been made over the past to look into Max and the Kunlun story. Because for some people, their time and money are precious, and perhaps (if they are like me), have been the recipients of fraud first hand, and the reason they were taken for a ride is because they bought into the whole "mystique" of spiritual masters- they have all the answers, don't talk to you straight, and if you ask too many questions, it means you aren't devoting the right amounts of time to their practice, which is exactly what you need right now- if you really NEEDED to know the answers, you'd have them. Now once more I'll ask you to remove yourself from your current mindset and consider this: Perhaps the reason so many threads of this nature keep being made is not because people just have their heads in the sand and/or want to question and ridicule a legitimate public teacher, but it's because said public teacher has not yet provided anything which is grounds for legitimacy, and that the questions which you insist either have been answered, or don't matter in the first place, actually have NOT been answered, or actually DO matter for someone who does not follow the leap first/consider life + money options later.

Non, you think too much. Seriously. Look at your past posts, see the back and forth, the this and that, the what about this scenario, what about that scenario. You ever find yourself drawn to one conclusion, then more thought leads to another conclusion, then thought leads you back to the first? Yeah, it's a very LITERAL sign that you are thinking in circles. Get out more. Get some physical work done. Walk, jog, run, do some push ups, jumping jacks, squats, crunches, get some dumbells (10-20 lbs), workout with those. DO stuff. Stop thinking about it. DO it. You are thinking yourself into a hole, and the only way to get out of a hole is to actively climb out. Changing up your lifestyle routine will give you a change in perspective. You'll be able to see stuff happening, rather than thinking in elaborate hypothetical situations. I mean, I'd sit here and throw some more thoughts your way, and if it were anybody else I probably would, but you've been at this for a long time. It's obvious it's not working. So you gotta change it up.

It's amazing that there's a place with such a high density of quality people and experienced practitioners.

I bet a few people around here will get a few chuckles out of the attached image...

Yes, well, a great number of people have said how they would never end up on their back, and yet they did. If there's anything that the UFC and similar groups have proven consistently, is that the best defense against someone trying to take you down is to have a good ground game yourself. I keep referring to him, but Anderson "the Spider" Silva is almost impossible to take down. Why? He's so good on the ground himself, he knows the techniques so well, that he can be where he wants when he wants, and sometimes that on his feet, sometimes it's on the ground. Well if your purpose of training in a dojo is learning to fight on the street, then perhaps you should rethink your methods for training. At least with traditional styles, the dojo was only supposed to be a stepping stone to real life. Of course, as time went on, dojos became increasingly separated from the concerns of real life. Anyway.... I think you're mixing two different aspects of a post- you said you'd like to fight an MMAist. I'm saying that the average MMAist trains ridiculously well, even at an average level. The average traditional martial artist, not so much. The average internal martial artist, not so much. So unless you are above average in whatever it is you do, or cross train in some type of MMA like style, well.... maybe you should just elaborate on what you meant by that and why you'd think you'd win. Fighting spirit does not make up for a lack of training, conditioning, or skill. You could have a burning passion to fight, and a fearless gaze as you opponent stands above you, stomping the shit out of your face until you lose consciousness. Yes, which is why I said depending on how far you take it, you could have skills comparable to a wrestler, so a tai chi person on that level could grapple effectively with a BJJ guy, depending on some other things (like if it ever went to the ground). You don't gotta be like that. BJJ offers techniques and perspective of an area that many people don't even really acknowledge. There's a reason humility has, for so long, gone hand in hand with the martial arts- because if you're so full of yourself that you look down on something because you don't think it has value compared to your tradition, you just might very well be digging your own grave. Cast aside your pride, and take an honest look at what you're looking at- do you stand to gain something valuable? Xingyiquan presents an easy way to teach some basic stand up techniques. No fancy footwork. No fancy techniques. There is value to that (though I doubt that many, if any, of those soldiers have trained it to a level of some of the past masters, and I bet more than a few rely on muscles and conditioning just as much as any MMAist). It lacks a bit when it comes to mobility and versatility when looking at things like what happens if you're on uneven terrain, if you don't start out from a standing combat position, and things of that nature. It's not always what you train, but how you train it. Many of the internal martial arts have good theories, and solid techniques. Unfortunately, many of the internal martial arts practitioners do not train in such a way as to actually increase FIGHTING ability to the extent that even amateur MMAists do. MMAists learn a technique, workout, increase their stamina, then FIGHT. Full contact, completely resisting opponent. They cross train with different styles and teachers so they can close up any gaps in their game- a stand up fighter will go and train with the best wrestlers they can find, to learn how to beat the best. You just don't see that type of training in the average internal martial arts. You might learn a few applications, but rarely train them full speed because you don't want to "hurt anybody". Rarely do you see many cross training, because "they're so rooted a takedown just wouldn't work". Though I won't go so far to say that all styles are created equal and it's just a matter of training (because I do believe some styles inherently teach less than effective, efficient, and practical methods, while others do), I will say that level of training does make a big amount of difference. Find someone who actually trains a traditional martial art to the extent that the average MMAist does, and pair him with a sub-par, only-doing-it-cuz-its-popular BJJ guy, and the traditional martial artist would win. Pair some of the high level days of old with some of the guys now, and they might not do too badly..... but who in the world is putting the kind of training into their traditional martial art (both in training and in application), as some of the top professional and amateur MMAists these days? I would venture to say not many.

Well, Non, what it is you want to do? Perhaps you should do a practice which supports what you want to do....

Not only expertise, but experience, and ability to read the situation. A fight may go on in a crowd of people- are they friends of the person you're fighting, or just people whipping out their camera phone to post it on youtube later on? Will they jump on you if you start to win? I've been in a fight where someone rushed in at me, head down, just swinging. I put him in a guillotine choke, laid down on my back, and choked him out in seconds. I rolled him off and walked away, his friends all rushed to see if he was okay, and by the time they realized they might want to stop me, I was gone. Obviously in another situation that might not have worked, but I correctly read the situation, their friends thought he had the advantage, they weren't going to step in to help, and when they probably thought about it, I was gone. And what strength is that? People who train for MMA, even at an amateur level, are top notch athletes. Not only do they train for strength, but also flexibility and explosive power. They learn to take hits as well as to dish them out. Though a few of them start out with a few techniques they know really well, as they get more experienced their repertoire expands and they learn counters upon counters. Even if you have superior technical skills, someone who can just outlast you in terms of endurance, or beat you to the punch, would win. Even in a street fight. Even if the guy has a knife. The attributes that MMAists, and most professional athletes train, physically and psychologically, is just better than most training you'd find in a karate studio, or traditional chinese marts class, or in an internal martial arts class. Not many people train as hard as those guys do. I don't think that people realize that, at least in the Gracie schools, there are different types of training. They certainly have training which is geared towards the ring, but they also have training for street encounters and real life self defense. Let's not forget that when they issued the Gracie challenge, it was no holds barred- people could even try their famous groin shots if they thought it would work, and, well, it didn't. Well how effective do you think his bengquan would be from his back? Well depending on the types of push hands you look at and get into, and depending on how much of a stickler you are to the rules, some tai chi almost looks like wrestling. But see the thing about BJJ is it's not just wrestling- it's GROUNDFIGHTING as well. And to my knowledge, not a lot of CMA's taught how to fight on the GROUND. 1, because it was dirty and that's what dogs and young children did, not adults. 2, because any arts from the battlefield didn't focus too much on that, because, well, on a battlefield you'd probably get trampled, or the guy on top of you could get speared through the back. Which sounds all badass and everything, but if you aren't fighting on a battlefield, but instead in the street, or a bar, well who's going to spear your opponent in the back when they take you down? Well Dong Hai Chuan could just jump 20 feet above someone and avoid the fight altogether, so there ya go. I read a story somewhere that Sun Lu Tang accepted a challenge from a Japanese wrestler, Sun Lu Tang was on the ground and let the wrestler try to lock one of his arms, but Sun Lu Tang used tai chi applications to prevent it from being locked. Neat sort of parlor trick/challenge, how well does this apply in the fight? So in my opinion, same category as Yang Luchan- could conceivably go either way, depending on how well the tai chi people could use yielding to get out of stuff, and generate power, all from the ground.

Because, in the opinion of this as yet unenlightened forum poster, if you have not realized enlightenment, if you have not actually liberated yourself, if you have not cultivated the ever present awareness of things, and you kill yourself, all you're doing is just waiting to be reincarnated. Kill yourself and you're back in the same place, and, most likely, it'll take you at least another lifetime to even get back to where you were at in terms of even knowing about a path. So quit thinking about offing yourself. It's not a shortcut to enlightenment, success, or liberation from suffering.

Because every violent person you meet with have a gun and since you'll be so powerless anyway, there's obviously no point in learning how to fight at all. Because the person who did that totally died. No absolutes in fighting. If you can end a fight in seconds by going to the ground, and you know that it's safe to do, don't stand around for a minute and a half trying to duke it out just cuz you're trying to "never, never ever" go to ground on the street.

Don't get bogged down by semantics. And by the way, Non, I hope you caught sight of this post: There you go, a guy with a yin quality who has a girl with some yang quality.