Sloppy Zhang

Well, I think there are a lot of different levels and manifestations of it. You can get all metaphysical and say, "well it's all inherently empty, you have to discard everything that you identify with because it's not really you" and whatever, and I guess that's all well and good. But if you're living in the modern world, then you've got experiences (like school), you have responsibilities (like work), you have connections (friends and families). Though you may be think/believe that these things aren't really you, you interact with them in some capacity on a daily basis (unless you're already enlightened, perhaps). So in that sense, it makes more sense to work WITH the forces going on in your life, rather than against. If you feel you must change something, adjust it slowly, I would say (unless you've just got that mega willpower gung ho attitude and have the willpower necessary to follow through). So then find something that embodies those desires, and you won't have any problems finding passion in doing something. Your little internal dwarves will be hard at work already. Serious introspection. Being able to look at yourself honestly. All right, sounds good in theory, but that is no guarantee it will solve the problem you've put forward in this thread: how do you find motivation for something you don't like? If the little dwarves aren't working for something, even if you want to put faith in a temporary purpose, it aint gonna happen. If you think it might work, give it a shot.

I'm a college student in a liberal arts school. As part of my "liberal arts" education, I have to take a bunch of classes and jump through a bunch of hoops by taking classes and programs that I have no interest in, and which are frankly quite stupid, just so I can graduate with the degree and get into programs which I AM interested in, so this issue is at the forefront of my life, and I have come to understand many of the motivations that people like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg must have had when they "dropped out" (perhaps instead of saying "dropping out" of college, we should say "stepping up" into a world changing career). I've been at this school thing for a while- just to get into a good college these days you have to jump through so many hoops, and then to go from college to good internship, more hoops, from internship to job, more hoops- so I've lost motivation. At one point I thought, "I really am a bum". But that's looking at it from the perspective of people who want you to act a certain way. Just because you do not have motivation for something that doesn't get you going doesn't make you a bum. But if you're in a college atmosphere and you don't have the motivation for college, other people will think you're a bum. I know plenty of people here to study medicine, business, chemistry, etc. They have equated working hard in class with being successful. Someone who doesn't work hard in class to get the grades, someone who doesn't go to all the right clubs and do all the right internships is a bum. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you should change your inner passions/dwarves/motivations/whatever into doing stuff you don't want to do! Not only will you most likely fail, you'll do it much more poorly than someone who's actually there because they WANT to be there, you won't succeed, you'll probably revert back, and not only will you be in the same place, you'll be depressed and sad that you've failed and are back to square one- all the while having no idea for the reason why you failed! Which is why I think that introspection and really finding who you are is REALLY important- not just to being all happy and healthy (which are important), but tangibly in getting money and having a successful career. Someone who becomes a musician just because they want to have an excuse to get high and bang some groupies is never going to be as successful as someone who is in it for the music, to really share their passion for music, and in the process get a lot of weed and groupies. Perhaps the reason so many people fail in careers which sound successful, or succeed in ones that don't sound successful, is because some people have a passion and drive that makes them accomplish things effortlessly and naturally (wu wei?) while others struggle against the grain just to get to the starting point! So, again: Don't try and change your passion/dwarves/whatever! I don't see good things happening. Instead, find out what the source of your passion is, where it comes from, and what it's going towards. This will involve some detachment and non-judgment. Because if you start thinking, "well that will just lead me to be a bum" or "I won't get a career in that" or "I won't have many friends if I do that" then you're already getting off track. Well that's a bit of extreme example. It's really a conversation onto itself (and I'm sure one that's probably been had on this forum, I don't recall because I generally don't participate in these things). Basically, we live in a society in which just killing people is not okay. Now maybe killing people is inherently unnatural or maybe we're all just naturally psychopaths, I don't know, but rather than looking at the surface (in this example, "killing children"), you should go deeper and find the motivating factor, where does this passion come from? What about it do you like? Don't look at the thing, look at the things behind the thing. Find other things you can do which share the same motivating forces behind the thing. That's why it's important to find the motivating factor behind the thing, and not just look at the thing itself. If you don't, then you just jump from one thing to another to another and though you say you're "following your passions" you are really just sabotaging yourself at each step.

Robert Bruce has a solid system, and has had a lot of really great information and practices out for a long time. And in terms of marketing, this has killed him. Why? He has nowhere to go. He has already laid out an extensive practice to develop your energy body, astral project, and things of that sort which, if you just practice it diligently, would lead you to uncover many new things and answer a lot of questions on YOUR OWN. Which means that people have very little incentive to buy any of his new products, which probably explains some of the sketchy things he's been doing/saying- it's the only way he can scrape together money. I was interested to see what his new program would have to offer, so I signed up on the mailing list. But when the info for new new stuff came out, I unsubscribed. Why? It's nothing that either 1) isn't already out there, or 2) stuff you couldn't figure out yourself if you actually practiced his method for long enough to be competently skilled in it. And the tricks he's trying to pull (or perhaps the tricks those around him are trying to pull) sully the good nature of the practices he's already put out there, and I really believe what's out there is good quality. Sucky business model (get all your best products out for cheap), but good for getting info out to people. I feel like many of these products are aimed at people who want to be a part of something, but don't actually practice. Because if they did, they'd realize that their practice gives them everything they need! There's no need to spend $10,000 on a seminar- better to spend 100 solid hours doing his practices (which you can acquire for anything from completely free to around $30) to get something real, something that would answer your own questions. The expensive stuff is for people who aren't capable of working on their own. At least, that's how I see it. I'm sure his marketing strategy will tell people like me I'm wrong and that it's all new material that hasn't ever been seen before....

I highly suggest B.K. Frantzis' book "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body". An excellent book, packed with information on both taoist theory, but also on a very awesome set of practices which actually embody that theory. Those practices, if your goal is to truly master them, will be with you for a very long time, kick start the overall process, and prepare you for advanced meditations and practices which you might find from other people. If you're in the mood, his other two books, "Relaxing Into Your Being" and "The Great Stillness" are also AWESOME. They contain a lot more theory than practice, but the theory they contain is VERY helpful in understanding the overall goals of his tradition of taoism, and gives you the context with which you can understand other things overall. The practices that he gives you are also very simple and straightforward as well. After that, practice practice practice practice practice practice practice.

Well don't take this the wrong way, or use this as an excuse to wreck your life, but maybe the reason you can't find any internal motivation, why you can't get the dwarves to do what you want them to do, is because what you want them to do isn't what you really want to do/should be doing, and what "you want to do" is really what you think you "should" do based on what you've been told by society, parents, friends, superiors, and even yourself. Look back up on my post, the people I've seen that I consider to be true "geniuses" didn't have to convince their internal dwarves to do anything- the internal dwarves were always at work, were always rearing to go. The geniuses that I've known have more problems STOPPING than they do starting. They have the kind of mindset where they're hard and work and go, "okay, lunch time." then don't stop what they're doing for two and a half hours. Then they finally stop, make themselves a sandwich, and it sits there uneaten for another two hours as they do more work. Maybe you aren't where you want to be and you aren't doing what you want to do. It's a competitive job market, so working/studying is important, but there still manage to be successful college dropouts in relatively recent years. They didn't stop going to school because they couldn't hack it, they stopped going because rather than helping them, their academic career was getting in the way of their busy internal dwarves- so they cut the crap and did what they wanted to full time, and became quite successful. Of course, this kind of passion is natural. It's something that arises on its own. Sufficed to say, if you have to question it, then it probably isn't the type of passion that I'd recommend dropping out of college (or any type of education or place of current employment) for.

Finally! Somebody gets it!!! Congratulations, rex!

Some things mix, some don't. Some do the same thing in different ways, so doing both would be like chasing the two proverbial rabbits- you won't catch either one. Other methods focus on one thing, so picking another method will help compliment it. But that's only really applicable when dealing with a very narrowly focused art, or an incomplete art. Many complete arts/established traditions have methods of treating almost all aspects of cultivation. So feel out what methods seem most applicable and usable by you. If you're thinking of picking something up/combining it with something else, try it out for a while and see how it feels. Follow the Star Wars quote: "trust your feelings". If something feels right, run with it. If not, drop it.

Hopefully they would have read enough to understand a bit about the context in which the comments were made, and not just be like, "zomg f-bomb, obviously that person has nothing intelligent to add to the conversation!" If they can't comprehend the context, then I'd say they have bigger problems! I dunno if it's fair to compare TTB's to other forums, because just as easily as you can find forums which would get half of the members of TTB's banned, you can find just as many (if not more?) forums where gratuitous (and oftentimes unnecessary, bordering on unintelligible) swearing is par for the course sooooooo..... Yeah. Would they speak enough english to know what's going on?

I am very glad to hear that!

Ah, hmm, interesting topic, don't know on which side I'd fall on! In general, I agree with you, ralis, that censorship is a slippery slope. We're on a forum where spirituality is taken quite seriously (while many people just consider it one more box to fill out on a survey form), so to that extent, emotions can run high. And sometimes when speaking from the heart, censorship be damned, who cares if you step on someone's toes? Honest messages like that should be looked at for where they are coming from, and not to be compared to a checklist of "no no" words. On the other hand..... We do live in a society in which words have meaning, and in which some people consider words to be very important, and a reflection on the outside of what you contain on the inside. And certain words in conjunction with other words (such as an expletive in conjunction with an established and generally well respected religious/spiritual group) can be quite offensive to other peoples' sensibilities, and they could take it as a huge sign of disrespect, even if the message does come from the heart (though they may be likely to say that what's in the heart isn't very good if all the comes out is the f-bomb ) And I think that we should be courteous to others and keep their opinions in mind when we say things so...... I dunno. Balance is good in theory, tracking the intent of people can be good, but also hard to do, especially if a bias or stereotype sets in..... As for the players involved, goldisheavy can say some pretty iconoclastic things, and those can be offensive, but I think he gives some rather excellent insights if you take a step back, don't get so hung up on what you absolutely know to be right, and just look at the meaning behind what he's trying to say. Gerard seems to be a pretty nice, dedicated guy (and always comes up with lots of pictures!) but does seem to be a bit of a stickler to the rules, and for upholding the legitimacy of varying traditions. Which can cut both ways, because there are a lot of people in this world who have a lot to teach but.... eh, well it can conflict with the "free spirit" of the internet, and internet forums (didn't he also make a list of people who were contributing to the downward spiral of TTB? I believe I was on that list.... ) Ralis, you seem to be a pretty nice, yet iconoclastic guy yourself As to 1984, I'm sorry to say this but...... well it always comes up on the internet, and for me it's gotten to a point where seemingly no one reads any other books (this mostly has to do with forums populated with a teenage audience.....) it's like, they read 1984 in high school, then they stopped reading! (it's about when I stopped reading in high school, 1984 was a cool book, and every book after that was laaaaaaaaame....) unfortunately everybody references it and it just gets old.... maybe we can find another book that talks about a society controlled entirely by the government? Hmm.... So what it comes down to is- this is the internet, people are going to disagree, toes are going to get stepped on, everyone's going to get into one huge old fight, some people are going to come out REALLY not liking someone else, and..... yeah. People will keep swearing. People will keep asking for censorship. Some are going to be censored. Some aren't. I don't want to encourage any apathy, lest TTB becomes the new 1984 but.... eh, it happens? Though I do lean towards less censorship than more.

I look at people who are really good at something, like artists. The artists I've known, the ones who were REALLY good, pretty much geniuses, did art ALL. THE. TIME. You give them two minutes of free time to kill? Boom, they just sketched themselves sitting there sketching themselves. Though it's considered a very hard profession to get into, I've known people who were able to take off right away, getting lots of high quality art out to a lot of people and making a relatively good living. To an outside observer, they are living a high stress life in which they must do art all the time to meet the needs of clients and the deadline. While this is true to a certain extent, from the perspective of the artist, they are just doing what they are doing. What would be inhuman effort to someone else is, for them, quite natural. So when you've found that thing that you do, when you have found YOU, and are YOU 24/7, then, well, it's not "stress" to you, but it may be to someone else. Now for some people finding "you" is easy, for others, well, that's quite the ordeal!

What 5ET said. The sage does not expect that others use his criteria as their own.~Lao Tzu (just one nicely worded translation I've come across) Sometimes a compliment is just a compliment. Sometimes it is a tool to feed the ego. Sometimes other people are using it like that. Who are you to step in and destroy their world? Don't remove people from the matrix unless they are ready Let them give themselves a pat on the back, wish them well, and move on. Otherwise you are going to start a painful, uphill battle with very little chance of success. When they are ready, they'll realize what's going on. But it's something THEY have to do. At the very least, if you're determined to lead someone to some awakening, you could find a much better jumping off point than a compliment

I would say cultivate a little bit of everything! A successful cultivator should be healthy and happy on many levels- physical, mental, spiritual, energetic, emotional, etc etc. For instance, let's look at your stereotypical high school "jock"- physically healthy ("cultivated"), which has allowed him to cultivate some self confidence (emotional). All his exercise has cultivated his body, and I'm sure he's taken nutrition into account, so he'd be vibrant with a great deal of healthy energy. This overall creates an atmosphere of, well, health. Women, and people in general, are attracted to this type of guy. They make friends more easily, they stand out in job interviews, etc etc. He might have some emotional problems, mental conditioning and experiences which make him unstable in certain aspects, sometimes that causes a problem, but sometimes that doesn't. Compare this to your sterotypical "nerd" (cultivator?)- they don't regularly exercise, and may be unhealthy. They might not eat the best foods. This could lead to self confidence issues, which prevents them from having the confidence necessary to even face their own life honestly- let alone other people. This can lead to stagnation on an energetic level, and makes you less vibrant. Women, and other people in general, are less attracted to this. So now we hop on over to the "ideal" cultivator (for example, look at a master yogi!)- they have a healthy body because of regular exercise, which is reinforced by a healthy energy body cultivated through energetic practices. Their practice of stilling the mind gives them a solid foundation with which to work, and they can examine their emotions and thoughts as they arise. They can work to recognize, and break free of, socially ingrained mental habits- they won't just act out whatever mental trauma goes on in their lives. They can see how other people act, and relate- they know that it's not always the person acting badly, they are just doing what they have repetitively been trained to do by society and/or themselves. To that end, they are compassionate, and work to relate to people. They forgive, and are kind. Everyone is attracted to this type of person, though this person doesn't seek it. Why? Because they are healthy on ALL levels. They aren't the jock who looks good on the outside, but might be unstable on the inside. They aren't the nerd who is physically frail and has self esteem issues. I would also add that, in a spiritual sense, seeking, and knowing, your "true self" (or being on the track to) is very good, and leads into that self confidence. You also, when with other people, look towards and try to find their true selves. When you talk to them, you talk TO them, WITH them, and never AT them. A lot of people like this. Some don't, because it is very "real", and some people don't like "real". But you don't get stuck on it- you realize why they are acting that way, wish them the best, and then move on. Cultivate while you work. Be aware of everything that is happening, how it is affecting you, who you are, etc. You can do this anywhere. People expect things of you at ALL stages of life. I, for one, started at 16, and you just gotta recognize society for what it is, and how it operates. I'm 21 now, and people still expect the same things from you. A little older, they may expect you to have a steady job, a wife, later on, some kids, etc. If you don't have those, then you better have a reason- you became really successful and busy, you went through some serious problem that required hospitalization/treatment, or something like that. So you're going to have to face the problem one way or another. Now, or later. Things won't magically get better when you're older. They'll have new forms, but will be the same problems. The important thing is not having sex and saying, "well I'm okay being alone, because at least I had sex" (this sounds like a justification to anyone criticizing long term celibacy, for example, which, as I've said before, gets you nowhere). The important thing is realizing why you felt the need to do it. Some people have lots of casual relationships, and only after the fact realize, "there was no need to have them, it was just some type of conditioning I was acting out", so they stop. Some people realize before having sex, "I don't just want sex, I want to share a meaningful experience with someone I care about", so don't have sex until that time. Sometime that happens soon, sometimes later. Maybe even not at all. The point is, don't get fixated on it. You'll only wind up sabotaging your efforts. If you feel like you gotta have sex to really be successful, then you're stomping out any success that could happen long before you have sex. But seriously, the whole, "I'm okay with being alone because I've had a sexual experience" just reeks of seeking some sort of validation. It should be examined, and realized for what it is.

Did you make this yourself? It's rather interesting and pretty impressive! A few combinations missing, though, but worth some thought!

I've seen it in a couple places that job availability is one factor for a lot of people taking to the streets (as in, they aren't part of the dominant political group, so don't get preferential job handouts- if they had jobs, they wouldn't have a problem). Not to diminish any movement or anything but.... yeah. New players, old game.

I thought it was just so people could masturbate/have sex all the want, but still be able to claim to be following a legitimate spiritual practice...

*puts on Christian hat* The meek don't inherit the earth from other people, by their own authority. They inherit it from God. *takes off Christian hat*

That's assuming you subscribe to the theory that the only measure of "success" is how many mates you get. Which means that if you're a guy able to impregnate a gal, and you're a gal who's able to bear children, and you aren't already making babies, then you're behind the curve. That's not the only measure of success. It's not the only system of belief out there. You don't have to subscribe to it. It's one belief put forward out of MANY. It seems like you keep focusing on it because it supports your own conclusions. Cognitive bias. You need to figure out what you want. Do you want to be spiritual? Do you want to cultivate? Because it sounds to me like you just want people to approve of your actions. And it almost seems like you are using being spiritual as an excuse for why you don't have sex, because you know, you just don't fit into what's going on in the world, because you're just so spiritual, you just don't have sex willy nilly, but oh noes, people are judging you because you don't have sex. Right, well, if you feel like people are judging you for not having sex at 25, go have sex. Right now. Just hook up casually with someone. Use protection and everything, and just get it out of the way. Then you won't be a virgin anymore. But wait. That's not a guarantee that it'll fix anything! You hook up with someone once, twice, a couple of people, a couple of times. So you're a fairly experienced stud. Okay. What are your hobbies? Cultivation? Okay, plenty of people who will judge you for that (it's boring, it's lame, it doesn't get you any money), then you'll be alienated and shunned by people, and you'll get back to square one. What's the problem? You keep seeking external validation! And when you do that, you will NEVER win. Because there are ALWAYS going to be people who will judge you. You might live in a place where not having sex by 25 is lame. So you go and have sex. And then you're normal. Then you move to a place where most of the people you know didn't have sex until they were married, they find out you did it beforehand, and you're not married, and oh noes! You're back to being an outcast. Except you can't go out and then "not have sex" and then fix it, so this time you're REALLY up the creek without a paddle. So what do you do? STOP SEEKING EXTERNAL VALIDATION! Happy, successful people have self confidence in who they are and what they do. Ever hear the phrase "own it"? It means owning who you are, what you do, how you do it, and not giving a crap about what other people think. 25 year old virgin? OWN IT! Cultivator? OWN IT! Be who you are, be comfortable with who you are, and show people that it doesn't slow you down, and their judgments about you don't slow you down. It doesn't bother you, why should it bother them? If you seem bothered, if you seem like their judgments are somehow hurting you, then that bothers people and makes them less likely to rely on you. If you can't even support yourself, how can you support others? Show confidence, and people will open up to you. And hey, if they don't? WHO CARES! Well aside from the fact that that wouldn't treat the symptoms, and it'd be more like escapism, maybe that would be good for you, maybe you should go do that. How about you just learn to relate to people? Make friendships that aren't built on "have you had sex?" "Hi, how's it going?" "Hey, good, I'm non. By the way, before we become friends, I just want you to know I'm a 25 year old virgin." "....." Yeah, maybe try to hit up some other topics of conversation. And look, if you can't, well, go where you can. Change your life to suit who you are, and that includes changing your friends. If you can't do that, maybe you should work on it. Or maybe you should just devote yourself somewhere else- a job, skill, cultivation, that will allow you to go to a place where you CAN be in an environment that meshes better with your goals. And maybe that is a buddhist temple. One thing is for sure though: SUICIDE ISN'T GOING TO FIX THIS! It is going to be hard. It is going to be uncomfortable. But only you can fix this. But that's part of the cultivation process. So if you aim to be a serious cultivator, you're on the right track.

Well you may already know that you are enlightened, but do you know that you are enlightened? I think some of the wording you used, "lifetimes of refinement" is key. You've got to make that realization a realization. And to do that, you gotta work at it. This might be a bad analogy, but here goes: if you're a human that has full use of their faculties, you can already run. You might be able to run for quite some time. Can you run a marathon? Can you run across a continent? You are already a runner. You are already where you want to be. But you still have a lot of work to do to get to where you want to be.

I, for one, don't mind tackling larger issues, or finding a larger issue lurking behind a smaller issue.... But from what I've seen, Non is not handling this realization in a positive way. Rather than saying, "wow, this is nothing but the workings of an evolutionary mechanism, how does this impact my life" or "I understand why other people are acting this way", and then doing something POSITIVE with life, it's turned into "wow, life is pointless and stupid, there's no hope for anybody, I realize what's really going on, but because of that people hate me for it, I'm borderline suicidal over this realization". There are certainly positive ways that you can use these revelations of the illusive, nihilistic nature of things. Like, say, to have compassion for people, to stop judging them (because you realize the source of their behavior and thought process), to find ways to relate to them so that you can help them get out of the pit they've stuck themselves in. To bring OTHERS to the same realization, and even if they don't get to the same place, to at least help them be at peace with where they are at. But I just don't see that happening, sorry if I've missed it, Non.

Once again, for old time's sake.... You can be masculine without being a jerk. You can be confident without putting other people down. You can be successful without being violent. There are many varieties of people out there, men and women, and they all have unique tastes and preferences. Where people are at in their lives also make a big difference. I'm in college right now, a lot of girls AREN'T looking for relationships- they use their looks to get guys to buy stuff for them and take them out places, as simple as that. They may be in a relationship with someone, but it's not like they actually care and are just using the guy, and they'll flirt with anyone if they think they can get something out of it. The guy is using the girl to get the status of having a girlfriend that looks a certain way, or he's just thrilled that he gets to grab/have sex with some girl. Conversely, there are people who don't get into relationships unless it's going to be a serious relationship. It's greatly surprised me how many people I've met who, the first thing they do when they graduate, is marry the person they've been dating for the past three years of college! In the words of Qui Gon Jinn from Star Wars Episode I, "your focus determines your reality". If you only focus on the people who use and abuse the opposite sex, then you are going to think that the world is only full of lying, cheating, stealing brutes. If you focus on the positive aspects, you'll see the positive aspects. Now if you take a step back and widen your gaze, you'll see there isn't just ONE characteristic that you can generalize to a HUGE portion of the population. Once again- if you want to open up to us about what experiences you've gone through that makes you think this way, I'm sure several of us here would like to give it a read, and I'm sure a few will comment on it. Otherwise though, you should seek a professional who you can trust to work through the issues, because this internet medium doesn't seem to be working.

Non, have you sought a professional who you can sit down with and talk about your past experiences and where you're drawing all of these conclusions from? Unless you care to open up to us about what exact experiences you've gone through that lead you to this conclusion?

I would argue that males become "dominant", by exhibiting desirable traits more than any other male. These traits manifest differently over the course of time. There have certainly been eras, and there are certainly locations in the present world, in which violence equates to dominance success. Where the more violent you are, the more successful you are. The more money you get. The more food you can provide. The bigger house you can acquire. The more you can take care of a woman and a family. So to a woman seeking a long term partner that can ensure some measure of security, well that would be a good choice. But there have been (and I would say that if you lived in a developed country, this is the case for you) in which being violent can actually set you back a great deal. Someone who is intelligent and calm would have an edge. Look at Mark Zuckerberg. Would you say he's violent? But I would say he has quite effectively established a "dominance" over the other males in the world. Did he do this by being violent? No, he did it by being smart (and perhaps a bit Machiavellian, but that too is intelligent in a way). Though I don't keep up with his personal life, I doubt Mr. Zuckerberg has any problem "getting" women. And if he decided to be "violent", and just punch all of his competitors, I don't think he'd get very far! But you should also keep in mind that everyone has their own preferences. Even in times of peace, some women want a guy who can established a certain degree of raw, physical strength. Some women find that repulsive, and want a guy who will play by the rules of society. Some guys like hot, air headed women. Some guys prefer a woman who has a superior intellect and with whom they can interact as equals. Some guys like to be dominated by women, so it all depends on who you are. No hard and fast rules, I'd say.

And once the tiger gets hungry, that cow is finished!

This forum has a lot of knowledgeable people in the subject area: http://forums.vsociety.net/ And as an aside, I do believe you can edit the title of your posts, so you don't need to go through the trouble of making new threads in the future