Sloppy Zhang

That's why I ASKED you. I asked you if you could, and you said NO. So I said: why don't you? And you responded: because in tested conditions, you wouldn't be relaxed, and then you couldn't do it. And I said, that's too bad. Maybe if you (or someone else) could do it under tested conditions, we'd actually get this accepted as legitimate science, instead of being thought of as idiots by everybody else. No need to be defensive or angry. I just think that if you can do it yourself, you shouldn't stop there, and should strive to get it proved. You know, to rule out cognitive bias and such.

If people were upfront and honest about the things they could do, and if people would actually hold each other accountable for their words, there wouldn't be the mess that there is today. I've been on forums where people were like, "oh yeah, when I was a kid I could use telekinesis and move the dishes around my kitchen with my mind, and organize them without having to lift a finger!" and all the responses were, "wow, that's really cool!" "wow, I really want to get to that level!" It's like..... someone is sitting there breaking everything we know about physics, and nobody seems to, you know, take a second thought? People can believe what they want to believe. But, when someone says something that can easily be verified physically, I am going to ask them about it, because I would want someone to hold me accountable if I ever made such a claim. I have been duped by frauds and I have seen other people duped by frauds, and the reason frauds are allowed to exist so easily in the spiritual community is because no one is holding anyone accountable. I am not saying Robert Bruce or alwayson are frauds. I am not saying that there is no value in meditation or anything like that. But alwayson made a statement (which I have highlighted and quoted repeatedly) which seemed to indicate that he could do something that could easily be verified. And I am calling for some specification on that particular statement. But alwayson's behavior does not inspire much confidence, and he seems to be using the same playbook that many other people use when they try to back out of what they said. People tend to be fast and loose with their descriptions of spiritual feats, especially in forums. People can exaggerate and puff their chest and talk about all sorts of experiences, and nobody tends to question the veracity of the claims..... but I am, because I find that the claim contradicts much of what is known today about the world (after thousands of years and billions of dollars in research, not to mention how many lifetimes were dedicated to the pursuit), and I feel that it is an insult to those who have come before to let people run around and make wild claims which contradict such work, with nothing done about it. Not to mention the many aids to humanity such skills can provide.

........ Wow...... Kind of like how they are going after wikileaks because the actions that wikileaks has taken are capable of causing massive damage or loss of life. Translation: they'll do it whenever they want and however they want for whatever reason they want. This kinda reminds me about the whole, declaration of war thing, and how troops can be deployed even without a declaration of war, but there must be continuous approval to keep troops in combat zones. But once troops are already there, it's not like people are going to pull support just because they don't agree with them being there, which leads me to believe that once the internet gets "shut down" (if when they do it), it'll take a lot of work to get it back up...... This is not cool

I am going by what YOU said, which is: This kind of thing I do all the time. You notice something in another room, and yeah its like that in real life. I took this to mean exactly what you said: you see something in an OBE in another room, and then you can physically verify it. If you meant something else by those words, please clarify. Because right now, it seems that you talked bigger than you really are, and for once in your life, someone is holding you accountable for the things you say. My philosophy when it comes to practice is this: KEEP IT REAL Be honest with yourself about what you can and can't do, and what your practice does and does not give you. The spiritual community is pretty slack when it comes to this, and as a result, lots of frauds are allowed to go around saying whatever they want and charging people out the wazoo for their teachings, when there is absolutely no proof that anything that they say is correct- even when such proof can easily be gotten if they can do what they say they can do. more pie guy has made this comparison many times in many threads, and I will make it again because it is very apt- whenever people go out to buy a product, they look at consumer reviews- does the product accomplish what it says it can accomplish? If it doesn't, they don't buy it. They use their brains and think about whether investing their time and money is a good idea. But for some reason, that same process is thrown completely out the window in spiritual circles! Because a good student "doesn't ask questions", because a good student, "proves it to himself", because "wanting proof is the ego wanting to hold you back", and because you have people like Alfred E running around insulting anybody who DOES ask questions! It's time to cut the crap- and start holding people accountable for the words that they let come out of their mouth.

"Relaxing Into Your Being" - B.K. Frantzis "The Great Stillness" - B.K. Frantzis "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" - B.K. Frantzis For an astounding mix of theory, philosophy, and practices to embody that philosophy.

Person 1 is separated from Person 2. Person 3 comes up with a random picture, and gives it to Person 2 after everyone is separated. Person 1 in OBE goes into room that Person 2 is in, observes the picture that Person 2 has, then comes back. Person 1 tells what he or she saw to person 4. Person 4 then goes and verifies it with the observer, person 5, and the data is recorded to see if the match is good. (or if you are doing this at home, just get a friend in another room to draw a picture, or write large number on a big piece of paper very clearly, or have a very unique object, which you do not know about beforehand, and verify it- of course, the more people you have and the more checks you have, the more you can eliminate the possibility that someone got hints before the OBE). This experiment is done repeatedly, and over the course of many trials is compared to how statistically probable it is that Person 1 could receive the information. Other people do the experiment with someone who can have OBE's. New experiments are set up to protect against bias or flaws in the experiment design. With this set up, you can prove that someone can obtain information using non-physical (as we understand it) means.

You do realize that I quoted the very post in which you made the claim, right? I'll do it again, please read: This kind of thing I do all the time. You notice something in another room, and yeah its like that in real life.

Yes you did This kind of thing I do all the time. You notice something in another room, and yeah its like that in real life. That is, by very definition, subjective I see this attitude a lot, and find it falls somewhere on the spectrum between amusing and ridiculous. Testing something out, and having it verified by external sources, is a good way of finding out whether what you think is going on is actually going on. I don't know how familiar you are with cognitive bias, but there are LOTS of ways the human mind can trick itself into believe what it wants to believe, regardless of reality. Again, if you want to talk about other realms or planes of existence, different modes of looking at the world, that's one thing, and can't really be verified objectively. In which case, you can believe whatever you want, you can prove it to yourself in whatever way you want. However, claims that frequently surround OBE's and psychic abilities, such as the ability to receive accurate information about something else which can be verified by objective third parties, can easily be verified in a manner befitting the current scientific method. And if anyone expects those claims to carry any sort of legitimacy, they should be verified. That those who claim to be able to do stuff only insult or belittle those asking for objective testing is sketchy, to say the least. Again, it's your prerogative to have a private life, but just remember, the burden of proof lies with the party making the claims. Don't turn it around and blame the audience, because that doesn't help your case at all.

Auras? No. Clairvoyant visions? Yes, yes you can. Well, as long as they are visions of things that correspond to the physical reality that most of us happen to share at the moment. Subjective energy experiences, heaven realms, bliss realms, visions of deities- can't be proven. Using non physical (as the term is presently defined) means of receiving information? (clairvoyance, OBE's to travel to other rooms and look at information, communicating with others in an OBE state and comparing notes)- that IS provable. You can match up your findings with that of the shared physical reality most of us inhabit, and verify what's taking place. [edit]I, at least, have absolutely no problems with subjective experiences. People can believe whatever they want. They can believe they went to some alternate dimension and met with all kinds of great beings and did all sorts of things. Good for you. But when people start making claims that they can do things which can be objectively verified, and that they can do them repeatedly? Well you just stepped out of the realm of subjectivity and belief, and have now entered the realm in which factual observation can determine the veracity of those claims. And if you want those claims to be in any way treated with any sort of legitimacy, they must be proven, just like everything else. Of course, it's your prerogative to not prove them, and just do whatever you want.... but we're talking about how claims are legitimized within the society that we live in now. And if you want people to believe you, believe what you're doing, and accept as a reality the other modes of human perception and the other realms beyond what our five senses give us..... you gotta put something up!

Perhaps your psychic predictions should be put to better use. Like making money. Or if that's not your deal, just helping mankind by proving to the world that such things are possible.

And I'm trying to make the point that even conditioned, professional athletes rely on their ability to relax in order to perform effectively. Even if they are in a giant stadium full of opposing fans who hate them and want them to eat dirt every pass, an NFL quarterback can still perform. If he tenses up, gets cramped, is short on the passes, he gets booted and replaced with someone who can perform. So it's painful to see supporters of OBE's and psychic phenomena say, "well I can't perform in front of people or in a test because I have to be relaxed or it won't work." It's like, uh... how about you have some self confidence? How about you practice consistently and test yourself rigorously enough to know that what you're doing is real, and that you are going to do it regardless of whether there are people around, and regardless of whether they want you to fail! If you (generic you, not you specifically) can't do that, maybe they should either train, or find someone else who can. Because as of now, despite the nice words (even of Mr. Bruce), I haven't seen anybody step forward to actually prove that anything they say they are doing is actually happening. For all the talk of communicating with friends across the globe, visiting places they've never been, walking around their house and listening in on other peoples' conversations, you'd think SOMEONE would have verified this, and you'd think SOMEONE, at least ONE PERSON would have said, "hey, I can make a big change with this!" So far all you ever hear someone say is, "I can do it, so I've proven it to myself, maybe you should prove it to yourself too one day!"

Because everyone who can OBE can do so as often as an NFL quarterback can throw a successful touchdown pass? If that's the case, why have no OBEers collected any money? At least NFL quarterbacks can perform in front of an audience, even a hostile one!

Great stuff!

What you said then: vs. What you say now: Then: vs. now: Soooooo.... yeah, that's where I'm getting it. It'd be nice to come across someone like that.

About damn time! I'm sick of waiting around for 2012.

How would you describe the art that you described, which used qi to easily debilitate someone even with a few glancing blows? Internal because it was developed in China? That is a lot different than some of the other internal martial arts, which, while they talk about being able to generate a lot of power very easily, don't mention much about shocking people in the ways you did.

You can read a bit about the origins of the classification of Wudang chuan and Neijia, as well as shaolion chuan other "external" arts on their respective pages. Basically, they were general classifications and in no way were the arts in those classifications set in stone. One person may cite only tai chi, bagua, and xingyi in "internal" arts. Others include arts like bajiquan, which have internal and external components. Though "shaolin" arts are typically considered "external" arts, even shaolin has meditative and energetic aspects, so the line gets blurry even then. Some people prefer classifying according to an art's origins (as with shaolin and wudang), but a bit of research shows that arts sprung up all over the place- some arts, like tai chi, despite the legendary origin stories, cannot be traced (reliably) through history to wudang at all (in fact, Chen tai chi can be traced to the SHAOLIN TEMPLE!!!) As with many labels, it seems their use was based on how convenient they were to the author at the time. Even within the styles, varying levels of mysticism and capability are applied to the internal and "qi" aspects. Many people say that it is just high levels of sensitivity, relaxation, and coordination. I have heard a story of a member of the Yang family who had a bird perched on his finger, and the bird could not take off, because the man's sensitivity was so precise that he'd lower his finger just enough that the bird could not push off. I've seen it retold in a different manner hundreds of times: that he used his qi to paralyze the bird. As much as I'd like to believe in the qi aspect, the high level of sensitivity just makes more sense with observations. Now you've got various other arts, like those 5ET described. They attribute a higher level of mysticism and power to the aspects of qi, and talk about being able to affect people by them. This leads into stuff like Mo Pai, qi blasters, empty force, and other things. Are they "internal"? Not in the sense that, at the time of internal arts definitions, they weren't popular. But with even a bit of research you see that the names were pretty much reflective of the author's opinions, and just happened to catch on, and through the years arts have debated over how much ground the terms cover. IN SUMMATION: Labels are stupid, and even members of the same aren't can't always agree what they are, or rank priorities differently. I believe arts need to prove themselves. If you can paralyze well trained, experienced MMAists with qi, that shit needs to be proven. If you aren't willing to prove it, you know, that's your prerogative. So pass people on to someone else. If you aren't, again, that's your prerogative. Everyone has a right to privacy..... Just.... don't go around telling your experiences that are so much more fantastic than everything else that's out there, and then turn it around on the people who are asking questions and giving them a hard time.

Actually, yes, it is. If you aren't relaxed, you tire yourself out very quickly. If you aren't relaxed, you won't be able to perform certain acts which involve extending, or having smooth movements, as well as without. Go join a training program for tennis, basketball, boxing, golfing, swimming, running, etc (it can even be a group class!) with any halfway decent trainer, and you will hear the same thing over and over: RELAX! It's the key to bringing out your body's full potential, and it's the key to making sure you carry out the technique (whatever it is) with maximum efficiency. A tense, jerky movement will not go as well. And from what I recall of Robert Bruce's writing, he says that just like falling asleep, you can OBE while not completely relaxed. It's just that relaxing really helps smooth out the process. The way Robert Bruce relays it, OBE sounds like any other skill. So it'd be nice to hear from someone who's been developing it for a while and can reliably demonstrate it.

5ET's description included qi transferring, qi attacking aspects, and things like that. A lot more than just those three go into the category if we go by 5ET's definition, and seeing as how his stories were what got this ball rolling, I'd say that's most likely what sykkelpump is referring to. As for me, I am including qi arts (including the qi transferal and qi "blasting") in my usage of the terms, to differentiate them from styles like MMA. In fact, depending on who you are asking, even those three internals do not include "magic" stuff like qi transferring attacks, but are instead highly developed martial arts that make use of the body's fully coordinated, relaxed body power. It is really amazing, because there ARE groups out there who are willing to do demos. Props to them for actually stepping up and willing to put their skills and name on the line. It's just too bad that they mostly wind up like these guys: Not even close to how 5ET performed. And seeing as how we only get stuff like the yellow bamboo guys, It's no wonder people don't have a high acceptance for qi based martial arts, whether you believe you can shock people with it or not. ESPECIALLY when someone says that a qi transferring attack can incapacitated an MMA guy, as 5ET relates.

Hey, I already posted that! Find

Not if you've practiced.... Professional athletes are under stress all the time, but they managed to stay relaxed enough to perform their skill. When I hear people say they can do something repeatably, that to me says they have reached a point where they have practiced enough that they have control over when they can do it, and they have trained under a variety of conditions and can still pull through, on top of having tested it themselves and verifying it to a reliable amount. If that does not describe you, that's okay, it'd just be nice if there would be someone like that who could step up.

Practice? Learn to relax under different scenarios? I mean, don't take this the wrong way, but saying like, "yeah, I can be psychic whenever I want on a daily basis, I just can't have anyone around, and I have to be alone in my room, and relaxed, and you can't test me or ask me questions about anything, because I just won't be relaxed" isn't.... you know.... very convincing.

Y'know.... that doesn't help your case, nor does it help out anyone who is looking for legitimate styles that can do what you (and others) say they can do. Especially with people like running around... I'm not trying to be a dick or goad you into some kind of confrontation... this is an honest question. There are a ton of IMAists who are full of FAIL. As a practitioner of something real, who is a real person you would recommend? If someone was looking to find a REAL practitioner/instructor, who would you recommend?

You know you can make a lot of money with that, right? Ever think about it? Improve our understanding of the human abilities? Test it under scientific procedures?

Hm, a bit contrary to other sources, but we'll run with this- Even with that, you could set something up in another room, have someone write something or have something that is unique, that you have no knowledge of. Then in OBE you could move to that room, collect the information, then return. Ever tried this?