Sloppy Zhang

Getting it all out can be a powerful form of letting go. As in, getting it all OUT of you. Ever write a letter to someone then not send it? Or, perhaps for us here, every write a post but then not post it? Sometimes you get to the end of a post, and realize there's no need to post what it is you are saying. The energy dissipated. The reason you felt a need to post was not to convey any particular meaning or response to someone, but to dissipate the energy you had stirring inside you.

Nice way of asking questions! I dunno, I kinda approach the subjects of energetics, meditation, spirituality, etc etc, in a skeptical way (even my own practices). There are a lot of cognitive biases out there. A lot of ways that you can fool yourself and others can fool you. If you show up to a teacher, fork over X amount of money, you are kind of already expecting to get something out of it. So if a teacher does something to/around you, you are naturally going to feel something (most likely). Is this a real effect? Or is it just you hoping to get some value from the money you spent? These are the types of questions I ask myself. I believe that if this stuff is real, it should be discoverable through your own effort. Someone had to discover it. Thousands of years ago, SOMEONE had to be the first person. Maybe they knew it naturally. Maybe it was revealed by a deity. Maybe something else. I dunno. But someone had to be the first, then someone had to be the second.... how did they do it? How did they convey the teachings? How did they experiment with this stuff? Were they any more or less human than us? They did it and they were just as human then as you are now. So I think the practices can (and should) be discovered as independently as possible. I think you should know as much about the pitfalls of the human consciousness as possible. HOWEVER, some traditions have been around for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. The things the human body can handle, go through, and be trained to do, are down to an exact science (such as yoga, qigong, etc). Things that a teacher from a legitimate lineage holds in their possession would most likely take you several lifetimes, unless (or even if) you were a genius, or were favored by some deity, or had a particular energy disposition. Experimenting with this stuff on your own could get you seriously messed up. Basically, feel out what sort of blend comes natural to you. Don't rely too much on teachers, but don't discount the knowledge and experience, as well as highly refined techniques, and words of caution, that they can pass on. Don't discount your own efforts, but don't get too egotistic thinking you can accomplish everything a thousand year old tradition did in a few short months/years. But don't rely too much on doctrine, and try to go where your own INDIVIDUAL practice takes you. Or, everything you've heard is all a bunch of lies told by people to justify a lifetime of sitting along in the wilderness.

Well I don't know of any specific hermit practices... HOWEVER, I can definitely see the benefits of a hermit lifestyle when it comes to practice. Once you get "in the groove", once you start cultivating a certain type of awareness, and if you take a taoist/energetic spin, once you start developing those energies, it feels really good to keep them running, to keep cultivating them 24/7. Sometimes even a long, say, two, three, or four hour session, even with closing down, makes you feel like you want to keep going. But you gotta get back to work, school, family, etc etc. Suddenly you get a bunch of stuff thrown at you that doesn't really aid with your practices, and you just gotta turn away. So maybe a hermit lifestyle lets you turn away from unwanted stuff, or perhaps worded better, lets you turn towards a different path. But I suppose it goes without saying that this kind of dedication is serious, and presumably one has done a lot of practices within society, and knows really well that this is a decision that is taken out of a positive drive (desire for betterment), rather than a negative one (I want to escape from X,Y, and Z). Because one I think could go very constructively, and one I think would reveal that the hermit lifestyle isn't for you.

Words cannot express how I feel from reading this post. I can't even begin to imagine going through that..... The only thing I'm thinking of that could be remotely extracted from this is the conditions of homosexual lovers and their status, and the lengths some decide to go through to hide their relationship, but that's still just pointing the finger, and in no way excuses such horrendous behavior. I'm going to stop talking now, but I just want to let you know that I saw what you read and.... I dunno what to say, just, I read what you wrote.

Interesting stuff!

Hm, forgiveness... yes, tough topic for me as well! Sometimes I wonder, if you had absolute power, and could get revenge, would you forgive? How much of forgiveness stems from the realization that revenge, or anger, is pointless? Because sometimes I think, "I hate that person, I want to beat the crap out of them!" But then I think, "someone will call the police, I'll get convicted of some kind of assault, people will think I have anger problems since I beat someone up over some words or actions, people will think I have a problem with authority of living with others, I'll have a criminal record and won't get a job, that person's friends/family will just retaliate against me or my friends or family, and an endless cycle of violence will ensue..... it's much better to forgive." But then I think, "what if I could get revenge on them, and no one would know? What if I could beat them up, or remove them from my life, and the lives of those I knew, without it ever being traced back to me- no risk for societal judgments, no impact on my career, no risk to those I care about.... if I could just make them... go away. If I could handle the problem, and no one would know but the person I hate." I wonder, how many people would say, "fuck forgiveness!" How many people forgive because they truly forgive the person, and how many people forgive because they are powerless to do anything BUT forgive?

Even Frantzis has been trying to get bagua into peoples' consciousness. Looking at the history of teachers he's studied with, he's had some great tai chi and xingyi teachers, but teaching in the west, tai chi was already really well known and popular. Xingyi was probably a lot less popular, but a lot more straight forward, and seems to be a bit more overtly martial. But there seemed to be a lack of knowledge about even the existence of Bagua, and Frantzis filled that in. Even these days, there aren't a lot of people out there who can teach a lot of the serious internal components of bagua- maybe they know some martial applications, maybe some walking meditations, but the whole package? Few and very far between, I think. In part, I think it was (and still is), a good marketing move- you got a system which can cater to the people who just want a good form of meditation, you can cater to the people who just want a bit of not too heavy impact exercise, and you can cater to the people who want to learn an internal martial art, all in one package! As far as the history, Frantzis is kind of right. I did a lot of research into the origins of Tai Chi, and seeing as how lots of the big names in tai chi can get traced back to the Chen village, it's fairly easy to see how the art developed in the Chen village. There are records of where the Chen family came from, as well as the martial arts they practiced (they were fairly well known fighters). Then you have guys later on down the line who go hide out in the Shaolin temple for a bit, exhange with friends and colleagues, and who learn some health principles from TCM. The art is then revised to conform to certain TCM mechanics, but it is still a fighting art. Several people in the Chen family had jobs guarding caravans. They kept their art indoors, but it was still a martial art. Yang Luchan goes and learns to fight. Then he goes to the capital and makes a career by fighting. He teaches his son, Yang Banhou, who is a serious fighter. And on down the line it goes. At least on the outside, it's a fighting martial art that sticks to principles that will help the body stay healthy, while at the same time producing lots of power, and being an effective fighting method overall. (note: there may be some in door meditative discipline that I don't know about, so no offense to any tai chi people). Now you can also say there are different traditions of tai chi, some tracing back to places that are not Chen village, which gets fairly interesting as you investigate why Yang Luchan's tai chi form looks so different than what he learned in Chen village, but you can counter with inner door teachings of the Yang family, stylistic differences between the different sons/grandsons, etc etc.... In any case, a martial art that has health components to it gets picked up and promoted by certain parties, there is a de-emphasis on actual fighting, and a bigger emphasis on how healthy you can be (and stay) while doing tai chi, and then that reinforces (and amplifies) a meditative aspect which may or may not have been there the whole time. Bagua is kind of interesting in that its history is different. Though certain aspects are mysterious, the circle walking in and of itself is a meditative practice (and daoist at that). From what I know, it was Dong Haichuan the martial artist which learned the circle walking meditation (and, I think, might have become a full taoist himself), and then adapted what he knew of martial arts to the circle walking to make a martial art. Now as he taught various people in different ways (and depending on who you ask, different amounts!), you got a lot of different descendant styles of bagua (Yin style, Cheng, Gao, etc etc). But tracing back, the origins of bagua were in meditation, and learning to get into and connect with and flow with different energies, which can be applied to combat (there's certainly energy flows in combat!), but isn't exclusive to combat. Tai chi can be seen differently in that it was always about fighting, then turned to meditation, but bagua was always about meditation, and later got turned to fighting (again, that's a very broad statement and might not apply everywhere, so please nobody take offense!) While I don't always agree with the pretty blunt way that Frantzis says that kind of stuff, from what I know of the history (and from what I shared just now, probably boring most people or causing them to skip over stuff!), there is some truth that rings out in the statements.

Thanks for the response

So.... what does the Kunlun practice consist of, then? I've got the book, which gives instructions on Kunlun with three levels- this is from Jenny Lamb, and is now out of the Kunlun? I know you said there's a new book supposedly coming out, but I'm just wondering, what does the actual Kunlun practice consist of?

My cousin was in the mall and looked somebody in the eye.... The man responded, "who the fuck are you looking at?" Then he and his two friends decided to start beating the crap out of my cousin until security arrived.

Keep it real.

Thanks! Neither would I, yet they got their style, and their name, established somehow. Yes! There are some very interesting videos of people like Kyuzo Mifune, who was a high level Judo practitioner, and some of his throws seem as effortless as the throws you'd see in aikido. And Silva is another great example of a modern day fighter. He drops his guard, dances around opponents, dodges, fights really effortlessly, but is able to be devastatingly strong at the same time. At the extreme of yang, there is yin?

Well, with all due respect, some of us DO want to get to know you, and it'd be great if you'd share

GREAT stuff!

And they were rather powerful thoughts, which, in my very humble opinion, merit a bit more expounding upon, for instance, how does one come about those thoughts? Who does one learn from in order to arrive at those thoughts? etc etc I've re-posted my own personal questions in the thread you started (the one titled mpway.... which isn't actually about mpway, but about you now the thread about you got deleted)

So... grabbed from another thread: So, what kind of chen taiji do you practice? You've mentioned a lot about the taoist path, your masters attaining tao, your master's masters attaining tao, how did they do that? Through chen taiji practice? What lineage? Did they attain it through something else? If so, what else?

I too find your posts interesting. Lots of insights, suggestions, and you've related a bit from your personal experience. People ARE interested in your posts- which is why they would like to know who you are, what you practice, where you got your knowledge from. You've made comments that your teacher (and their teachers) have truly attained the tao. Many would like to do so on this board, so it's no wonder that people keep asking questions about you! If you have been falsely accused of being someone you are not, that is regrettable. If you are someone who regularly acts under false pretenses, that is also regrettable. But the best way to find this out is with the truth. Just the facts. Who are you? Who did you learn from? Is this a known lineage? Something obscure? If you know about your master's masters, then there is some kind of lineage, is this documented? Where is it from? etc etc. It's not an interrogation, it's just that you've become a victim of your own wisdom you've piqued peoples' interests, and they want more!

I'm not trolling. I really do want to know who you are, and what you practice. You had a very strong opinion about something which coincided with 5ET debut of his book. I would very much like to know where someone can go to learn how to distinguish between what is "real" taoism, and what is "not real" taoism. Maybe 5ET's stuff is legit, maybe not. But how do we know if the people with the "real" taoism are holding out on us? I've got a lot of respect for 5ET, he's put a lot of effort into making the site, not to mention a book! He's showed a lot of dedication in pursing the path (from what I gather based on my interactions with him on the forum), and is doing everyone a great service by sharing with us what he's learned, and I really don't like how his thread has turned into this. However, a thread to figuring out who YOU are just doesn't seem to be working out. So, yeah, it sucks that we're having to discuss this here.... but you know, we wouldn't be having this discussion if you had just answered concisely about you and your teacher and your method the first time.... or the second time.... or the third time....

Mind sharing the name of this person? It's always good to know where to go if you want to study some real tai chi. Well back then Yang Chengfu and Yang Banhou were out there every day on the leitai establishing themselves, making a reputation, fighting and WINNING, given officially appointed positions, and the like. They took their skills right in the middle of where all the fighting was, and came out victorious. Where is the fighting nowadays? Leitai? War zones? MMA? How many tai chi people are fighting in those? The bullshido guys have found videos of sanshou people using moves that look like tai chi. Haven't heard much about tai chi in the military. Or MMA. Brazilian jujutsu made a name for itself in MMA. Combat brazilian jujutsu (complete with eye gouges, knives, and broken glass!) is now being taught in military combatives in the ground fighting section- why? Because it WORKS. Because Royce Gracie fought and DEFEATED numerous people who were BIGGER than him and who wanted to seriously put some hurt on him. Because even BEFORE UFC 1, the Gracie family had given out the Gracie challenge, and they were choking people out day in, day out, making a name for themselves, keeping their money, and making good on their word. What have the top styles of tai chi done? What have all the unnamed masters done for their art in recent times? What passes for combat science is what is there to research. Professional fighters, soldiers, schools, and other organizations are there to be tested. You watch a show like fight science, and you get guys like Bas Rutten being tested against some no-name guy who claims to practice ninjutsu. Bas is generating the force of a car crashing into your rib cage, the scientists are blown away, they don't believe the numbers and keep having to retest, then this no name ninjutsu guy is hitting the thing and barely making a dent. They're like, "yeah.... it's like you got punched in the chest." Then look back at Bas and are like, "holy fuck, the numbers look like a car!" Then all the ninjas come out of the internet wood work, "oh well that wasn't ninjutsu", "oh well that test was biased", "oh well that would never work in t3h streetz", "oh yeah, there are no rules in the real world." SAME THING goes on with IMA guys. Same thing. It's pathetic, really. The only people who are to blame for the decreasing quality of IMA these days, are the IMA teachers who are hiding in the corner. Sure, everyone has a right to lead a private life. You don't have to teach on your uber deadly skills if you don't want to. You don't have to step into the octagon, or go to a military combatives program, if you really don't want to. Just don't turn around and start complaining that no one is giving you a fair deal.

Really now? This seems to indicate that you know what is and isn't taoism... Again, this seems to indicate that you know what a real taoist system entails.... Here you seem to indicate that you know what the goal of taoism is, and what it's like once you get there... Again you outline general prerequisites and steps that one goes through on the path. Here you are elaborating more on what the path entails. You then say that it's possible to attain the tao, and if this person is your master, then one would assume you know who this person is, know how to get into contact with this person, and that this person is teaching you the specific method that this teacher, and this teacher's previous teachers, have used to attain the tao. And here you say there is a distinction between arts that will actually get you along the path, and those that will not. Here you elaborate on many mechanisms of magic/sorcery/etc vs. tao, so one might infer that you know the difference, that you know how to recognize them, and that you know of a true path to get to the tao. Now, I am asking if you would share this path. How do others find the true path so they are not lead astray? Can others find your master and also attain the true tao, and not get caught in such silliness that will just lead others astray? Please share, so that others may know of the true path as well! I have not sent any PM to anyone about this thread, or about you personally. I've seen a couple of your posts around, and you've made some fairly good points and have contributed to discussions in the past. Now I see you are commenting quite strongly in this thread, and am now curious about who you are, what methods you use, who your teachers are, and how you come to possess the knowledge and experience that you have conveyed. It's as simple as that.

Yes, but I'm not the one claiming that someone's way is not true taoism, that I know what true taoism entails, and that I have a teacher who has attained the tao. As a seeker myself, I am very interested in finding the true way. So it would be quite helpful if people further along the path than myself could help point me in the direction of a teacher who is an example of one who has attained the way.

I like to know who it is I'm talking to. You seem to have a lot of very strong opinions of who a taoist is, what a taoist system entails, the goal is, and what the final goal should look like. So I'd like to know where you got these impressions, and where someone else can go to learn them Because 5ET has been around for a while, I have come to value his advice and his experience, and I think it's nice that he's putting out info based on his own exploration and practice. He's been pretty up front with his website, and he's shared a lot of his practices in past threads. I feel like some people aren't taking the time to explore the site and actually look at the material for what it is, and are instead looking at the material for what they think it is. And that's not very cool. At least give it a try. At least give it a look. And if you have some standard for appraising whether or not something is taoist, and if you know someone who has attained the goal of the taoists, well, please share I've asked you twice, someone else has asked you once. 5ET has directed everyone to a nice website that they can read before they ask any further questions. Will you at least show us the same courtesy?

Yes-

fiveelementtao has put together a great, very extensive website. There are lots of links and sub-links, so maybe some pages aren't being seen? Check the side bar when you open a new page, and it display some sub-pages. fiveelementtao has been around a while, and has provided lots of help to lots of people, as well as, in general, giving great advice and insight. From what I know, he's pursued his path with great dedication and has a lot to show for it. I think the product he's putting out now has come about from a lot of work and experience. Maybe we don't all like the labels used and stuff, but I don't think that these products are things that will take you off the path. This all sounds rather interesting- who is your teacher?