Sloppy Zhang

Here's a video that I came across a while ago: And it's kinda the stuff I'm talking about. You see a lot of people doing the traditional training methods (heavy emphasis on standing), but you also see them working with modern training equipment (heavy bags, boxing gloves), and then (at the end) you see them sparring against resisting opponents. So, yeah, I'm all for traditional arts. Just don't get so absorbed in what is "tradition" and what is "not tradition" that you forget to actually make sure that what you're doing WORKS.

I too have been in the market for a bagua book recently! I've come across this one on Wang Shujin's bagua: http://www.amazon.com/Bagua-Linked-Palms-Shujin-Wang/dp/1583942645/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1289781251&sr=8-1 Kent Howard, one of the translators, has a really good youtube page where he performs demonstrations of some techniques: http://www.youtube.com/user/baguaman8 If you aren't afraid to get spend a little more, there are some Yin Style Baguazhang DVD sets out that teach various aspects of the Yin style system, which feature both Xie Peiqi and He Jinbao performing them. Only four forms out of the total eight have been released on DVD, but I've talked to some of the people who have purchased them, and they seem to be fairly extensive and comprehensive not only in the instruction of the form, but in standing exercises, practice drills for each of the techniques, and applications. You can find them here: http://traditionalstudies.org/Store/YSB_8_Animals.html He Jinbao says to start study with the Lion form. http://www.maguibagua.net/ Has basic instruction for stuff. They have e-books which are only a few dollars, and which they say is basically the text of the website, but with better pictures, diagrams, and a few more explanations on a couple of techniques. This is Ma Gui's style of Yin style bagua.

Yeah, it's not too hard to find examples on youtube of various techniques. That's how I learned the chen style tai chi form (got a book on it later though). But knowing the underlying aspects is a big deal as well. Though I could find the form, I didn't really know what I was doing until I learned the material in "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" and other material from B.K. Frantzis. Though I'll go back and check again, the only instruction on what to do with the hands in "Relaxing Into Your Being" is when he teaches straight line walking, and says to have them like you do in standing posture. Once I started to practice circle walking, my arms/hands started to feel a need to do something as well after a while. And while I can look up palm changes easily enough and copy them, I'd like to know at least a bit about their underlying aspects before I start to practice it. Pietro, when you get to a point where you can share, I'd look forward to it

Also, in "Relaxing Into Your Being" he gives instructions for circle walking, but doesn't mention positions for arms/hands. What hand/arm positions would he recommend for someone who is circle walking, though hasn't learned or who isn't at the time working with any palm changes?

I do not think that science and religion are inherently oppositional, but people make them out to be that way. If the goal of science is to figure out what's going on in the universe, figure out how things happen, and why, and things of that nature, then that does not conflict with the goal of spirituality. If there is a God, universal cosmic force, or some other thing, then somewhere along the line, I believe it should be discovered by science, because the goal of science is to learn about such things. So in the end, I personally think they are going to the same place. As part of the requirements for my college, I have to take upper level science classes, and I have taken upper level astronomy courses for that requirement. It's amazing how many things we learn about that coincide with things like daoist cosmological views. It's amazing how many times I hear my professor say things that you'd hear a spiritual teacher say. It's just that people like to make such a big deal of "thinking vs. feeling", "rational thought vs. intuitive thought", and on and on and on and on. About how one is better, how one will get you something better, and on and on. Humans are not one dimensional, and neither is the universe that we live in! But people like to fight. People like to be "better" than someone else. "Scientists" like to look at "mystics" and say, "hah, there's no logical reason for why they believe the crap they believe!" and "mystics" look at "scientists" and say, "hah, they do not yet realize that their logic is not suitable to encompass everything that goes on in the universe, and their reliance on logic will cripple their ability to truly see!"

Thanks for the explanation!

There's some interesting psi research stuff out there. However, from most of what I've seen, it seems to be done by analyzing large groups of people. So most of the time, on an individual level, there isn't much more outside regular chance that's occurring, but when you consider how often and how many people are doing "just a bit more" than what chance would allow, it seems like something is happening a bit more massively. Of course, skeptics can and do argue (and I figure, rightly so) that a lot can be said for the manipulation of numbers and how you present the data. But there are lots of good counter arguments for the supporters and why the calculations are all valid. I believe that it is possible. However, that's exactly why I remain skeptical, because it's VERY easy to WANT to believe something so much, that you see it even when it isn't there. Attached is an interesting set of articles I came across a while ago. The first is a meta-analysis showing how psi effects can be present. The second is a response to the first article from a skeptical viewpoint that is critical of the firs one's findings, and the third section is a response to that response, addressing those criticisms. psi scientific article.pdf

Hey Sean, if you're still compiling the questions and waiting to send them, I'd second this, and also add if he has plans to release individual DVD's or books on the material in smaller segments. Hundreds of dollars at a time might be too much for some people to drop on a product at a time, but stuff in the $35-$75 range might be a bit more accessible.

Sounds interesting. What do you mean by "takes up slack as they push"? Are you following their force until they are extended, then pushing back, or pushing back into whatever slack they have? Or something else? Interesting. I don't want to say that people who make these videos are deliberately trying to misrepresent themselves or their skills (though it may be the case in some situations for some people). Some people generally believe in the things they are doing. That said, not a lot of people are willing to go through the rigorous testing needed to be done before they know for sure whether whatever they are practicing is, well, is able to do what they think it can do. And for a lot of people, they'll never need a system that can do that. So it can get complicated and depends.

I dunno. I'm sure it's quite complicated and varies from case to case.

I'm going to say something pretty radical here. Now it's not to say that things like focusing on getting work done and all is not a good thing, because it is. Leading a stable life can lead to a really content, full, pretty pleasant feeling. But since everyone's going to tell you that anyway, I'm going to suggest something a bit more.... out there.... Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the things you are doing, the things that "fantasy" "distracts" you from, are not really the best things you should be doing? I say this because when you really get into something, time flies. You aren't looking for excuses to take breaks. Sometimes you forget to eat or sleep. And it's not even really a conscious decision. Sometimes you'll, say, make a sandwich, but then get re-absorbed in whatever it is you were doing, and then before you know it three hours have gone by and you've still got an uneaten sandwich on the counter! You are just really absorbed in the activity. The stuff that gets produced as a result of that activity are really high quality. Now, there are ways that you can train/make yourself have this kind of focus for other things. But I'm suggesting that maybe you ALREADY know what it is you should be doing and how you should be spending your time, but you're trying to fit somewhere else. B.K. Frantzis has a pretty good blog here. He's recently made a few posts titled "for the love of the game or ego?" He raises some interesting questions. He also relates a story that he's told a bit, about how, when he was younger, around 19, people would be amazed that he was doing 6 hours of really slow, really exacting qigong exercises. He says that he didn't ever set out to do a 6 hour practice. Rather, it was just minute by minute, second by second, that he kept making tiny micro changes, completely absorbed in the process, and before he knew it, 6 hours went by. Maybe you should try to find that.

What's wrong with having your head in the clouds? As long as your feet are on the ground

If you knew anything about real internal martial arts, you'd know that touching a master like that is like getting tazed each time! These people get off easy, since they are already open to the energy, he doesn't have to exert for them to feel it. But if it was against a determined attacker, he'd have to pump them full of so much electricity that they'd probably die before they felt it. which is why this intense master will never be in the UFC or any other "sport", because his skills are just too deadly, no one would comprehend it, and UFC would never make any money. [/sarcasm] *ahem* Of the little yiquan stuff I've actually seen, most of it is pretty grounded in reality- I've seen yiquan guys training against boxing jabs, working with heavy bags, and generally addressing things that occur quite frequently in modern fighting, but that you don't see a lot of in traditional martial arts. Big emphasis, from what little I know, on standing practice, in other words, the fundamentals, basics of the basics, which is good. A lot of people get caught up in techniques and forms that when push comes to shove, they don't have the ability to actually DO any of it to someone who isn't their student. Don't know what this video was trying to show. Qi development perhaps? Probably not anything that was supposed to be taken as "you can do this to someone who grabs you", probably more like, "look at what happens when you've practiced for a long time and someone sensitive touches you." Still, as always, I advocate a more scientific approach to investigating these phenomena and abilities of teachers/masters. Because unless there's some hard studies done about these guys, they just make for some.... uh.... entertaining? videos.

I hope there is not an archiving system which is based around, or prioritizes, highly voted posts. Some unpopular posts might have some great truths to them, but just got voted down because it's not popular. Another good post could also get lost in the abyss simply because people read it, thought, "wow, great post!" then didn't comment and didn't (or forgot) to vote, simply because they felt the job was done and they moved on.

I agree that this place isn't heavily moderated! Which, to be honest, is very refreshing. But for me, it's more about how it could be (ab)used by the users. Sure, anything is open for abuse. I think TTB is one of the best communities around, all things considered. But it's gotten pretty ugly in the past. While moderator action only happens in pretty extreme cases, there's a lot that goes on which DOESN'T get (or in my opinion, require) moderator action. HOWEVER, I think this system would be open to the abuse during those types of situations, which normally would blow over, but now might be exacerbated because there's a literal gauge for what's going on with the post outside of the post's content. If that makes any sense...

But if some people never use it, won't the same people just not vote to begin with y'know, voter apathy and all?

My concern has been less of moderator action with regards to these things, but the action taken upon other members. A bit more specifically, I think it can open up an avenue for people to gang up on another member. So, say a bunch of people decided, "hey, this person is a troll" or "this person is just advertising" or "this person just doesn't understand the true nature" or something like that, then they all just minus the comments. And then, since we can all see the numbers, that same group of people can say, "well look at that, I guess nobody liked/agreed with what you said/are saying, maybe you should just go away and...." and yadda yadda, something like that. Basically, it could take the focus away from the content of the post itself, and be more like, "well nobody likes it, so obviously you don't have anything of value to say". Don't know if your average day at thetaobums would produce such a scenario, but I think a few threads/situations/people have gotten to a point where such a scenario could be a possibility.

Well he's referenced as an "urban hermit" of some sort, because while he did live in Beijing, he didn't really make contact with a lot of people, and didn't teach any students other than two or three (BKF, Bai Hua, and I seem to recall reading somewhere that he taught a relative of someone he knew from the bagua school he was in, but that may have just been Bai Hua, as the running story that you hear is that he only taught two). As an aside, the book, "The Whirling Circles of Baguazhang" has an interesting little bit at the front about who taught whom and from where. They do a very good job about connecting the dots with martial arts teachers/students, at least, some of it gets very complicated, especially when cross generation people start teaching people from other lineages, and so-and-so is so-and-so's martial uncle/cousin/brother yadda yadda. Not much on the spiritual lineage tracing, but I seem to recall it's from this book that my recollection of a third student comes from. Anyway, Liu Hung Chieh and BKF appear in that little segment, which I'm sure can be found on google books still, for anyone wanting to check it out. I agree with the rest about verifying a lineage I know many people just want to find "a practice that works", and don't really care about lineage. And that's fine. But sometimes you DO want a lineage, and in those instances, you gotta do the research. And people claiming a certain lineage, you gotta back it up! But I've never really felt comfortable saying, and maybe it's because I don't read it too often, "BKF's lineage". I think that in the books he mostly refers to his stuff as "the water tradition of daoism". I'm not sure how much BKF really fashions himself, if at all, an "inheritor", I don't know how much, if any at all, he's really changed the material/structure of the system (though I know he has, in many cases, distilled some of his vast experiences into a few forms that are highly effective and representative of certain principles). From what I've gathered from the writings, when his main teacher passed away, BKF wasn't really ready to start teaching the "serious" stuff (meditation, advanced qigong, advanced bagua and advanced tai chi) and mostly stuck with the basics, and it took him a while to kinda grow into teaching more of the serious stuff. But that may be my oversight and skewed interpretation!

A lot of people have said a lot of things about celibacy. I highly suggest you go back and search through some of the old threads. Not to sound too hippie-ish, but a lot of things Taoist fall under the "do things naturally" category. But "what's natural" depends on a whole lot of things. What's natural for one person might not be natural for another. Rather than following something dogmatically, or rather than following something you think might be the best for you, or following something because that's what you want to be true, you should do a practice that involves listening to your body, and doing whatever practices fit your body at that time (I say it that way because that may change over time, or with other circumstances). Trying to work it all out, trying to know what's with a bunch of different systems, or something of that sort, is going to leave you incredibly focused on the issue, and, in the worst case scenario, get your mired in the very problem that you hoped to avoid. Don't be afraid to do something you've never done before if it truly feels better, and don't be afraid to stop doing what you've always done if it truly feels wrong.

But see that's the thing though- even perception of who/what is considered a "troll" is subject to opinion. Someone could be raising valid, though unpopular points, and be considered a "troll" equally with someone who is legitimately just dicking around, and be considered a "troll" equally with someone who is just not eloquent enough to get their thoughts across completely. Any type of user rating/ranking system is open for abuse stemming from someone's opinion about the poster, rather than about the quality of the posts themselves. Even brilliant posters don't always post the next holy book, and even unpopular posters can hit the nail on the head in a topic. Best to just have everyone read the post how they want, free of any sort of plus/minus. In my humble opinion.

Hmm, yeah, I found the introduction of the rating system to be a bit silly. Doesn't really seem to be part of the "spirit" of this forum? At least in my very humble opinion. That said, I haven't really seen it used that widely. I've given a few positive points to people right after I commented on how much I liked their posts. I've only seen one negative one given, and I think that was by someone who explicitly said, "see it was me who gave you that negative point". Maybe I'm not paying much attention. Popularity has never really been in my interest on TTB. It'd be nice if I got a couple thumbs up, but I'm not really looking for it. I'd like to think I wouldn't care if I got negative points, but you never know I recognize people by their names and the consistent quality of their posts, not the number associated with them. I figure that in general, it'll have as much of an impact as the users give it. I for one am not paying it much mind. That said, perhaps this might be better suited to be moved to a different section of the forum? Or perhaps it won't get as much attention there. To be honest, I don't visit many other parts of the forum besides this one too frequently, despite there being some good stuff in other parts!

I don't know if you've seen this before, but "Initiation Into Hermetics" puts the exercise you are doing in the step I mental category. It's certainly useful in the way that Bardon's method works, and the later ways in which he deals with subconscious, habits of conscious, etc etc. For me, personally, that's not the way I liked to go about doing things, and for me, I came across the things that taomeow and de_paradise have already brought up. It was pretty easy for me to get focused, and for a while, I reaped great benefit from it- I noticed that I could work long hours and be completely focused on just doing my work (whereas before my mind would wander and I'd procrastinate). I realized that I could fall asleep in about two seconds after lying down because I was completely focused on sleep (whereas before it took me about an hour to fall asleep). Yet I still noticed, from other practices I had done which got me into the habit of observing these things, that I was still pretty tense. And as taomeow already put it, it's like a cat watching mice- if the cat is around, the mice aren't going to come out. But in my opinion, even if you have a cat, you still have the mice! As much as I like a cute little mouse, if I want to get one out of my house, I'll lay a mouse trap. The REAL test is when you leave a bunch of traps around and no mice show up!

Lotta people saying a lot of stuff:

Well please let us know when you compile them and send them off! I'd really like to know how he'd respond to some of these! A few of us here, including myself, have practiced/practice his methods but have not had a chance to meet/talk with him in person (though there are a few people here who have done a great job of helping us along with Frantzis' material!), and it'd be great to hear his responses to some of these questions!