Sloppy Zhang

His website has been redone. Neat layout, and some good information on some of the practices: http://www.energyarts.com/

Yes, well if someone drops a mountain on that up and coming virtuous magician, then all that cultivation goes to waste, hm? unless you believe in the type of reincarnation in which your spiritual progress and achievements roll over into your next life!

I'm sure there are those who would categorize it as such. "Wrong thing". According to who? Some people a long time ago who wrote it down? Some people a long time ago who were trying to get rich quick by forging copies of manuscripts that "sounded holy"? A dominant social class that wanted to keep other social classes in check? Egoic or not, it doesn't really bother me. It sounds very nice. And I've certainly had such "magic" happen. But I've also had such "magic" NOT happen. Is it because it wasn't meant to be? Why is it not meant to be? Who decides? Why do I, or why does anybody, have to live by something they aren't even aware of it going on? That sounds like taxation without representation, and America fought a war over that! I don't know about everyone else, but I'm American, and I don't want taxation without representation, and I don't want to keep being subjected to laws that I have no say or no knowledge of! I've also found (and heard it repeated very very often) that you get what you put in. And if you don't put in anything, then you don't get anything out And I for one want to get a lot out of life. Ego? I don't really care. So to that extent, I need to put a lot into life. But what do I put in? How do I do it? These are the things I'd like to find out.

Wow.... that's.... wow. Interesting indeed!

Don't mean to speak for -O-, but these kinds of things are how I interpret -O-'s point. Like, if you are painting a picture, and make the grass green. Then the teacher comes by and says, "no, your grass should be blue grey." And you go, "oh, well I thought it'd be green, but if you say it's blue grey, then I'll make it." And then you go around painting blue grey grass. And the whole reason you did it was because someone told you to. Sure, you can choose to "make love" to someone else's view. But that brings a level of awareness on your part of what you are doing- you see another view, and choose to follow along with it because of what YOU decide to do. There are people who have ideas IMPOSED on them, and follow along because of that imposition, and I think that's where the term "rape" came into play. But again, that's just my interpretation. That's how I see it as well.

Yeah, and being aware of and deconstructing those habits is, if anything, a good way to start lucid dreaming (if that's what you're into). If not, then it just helps you be more aware of what it is you are doing, and helps you make decisions because YOU want to, not because it's some habitual reaction to whatever is in front of you.

Thanks for the recommendation And I am still interesting in what you have to say regarding this: Again, it is a choice of how I want to spend my time, and if anyone has any valid criticisms or alternative suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.

goldisheavy hit a lot of good points. As a tip for lucid dreaming (if you're into that sort of thing, and don't do it naturally/spontaneously very often), monitoring your behavior in a dream is a great dream sign to take note of. A trick for lucid dreaming is "dream signs", so if you habitually act out of character in a dream, record that in a dream journal (or just keep a mental note). As you become more aware of it, the next time it happens in a dream, you can say, "why am I doing this? That's right, it's a dream sign. This is a dream!" Keeping awareness of your thoughts and actions is also something that one can cultivate through meditation, and carry it with you in all of your actions. So in that sense, each area helps the other one out. As for why? Well, try asking that question in a dream

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So your suggestion for siddhi learning is....?

Two years ago I came across B.K. Frantzis' "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body". Been doing that as a primary practice at least every other day since then. Interesting stuff. About a year ago I came across Franz Bardon's "Initiation Into Hermetics." That was a bit interesting because Bardon pretty much laid out on the table everything I had ever wanted in a system. I struggled for several months to get into it, but it just didn't seem to fit me, or I just didn't seem to fit it. Regardless, I tried to hammer it out for a year, and it didn't work. Kind of took a few steps back in my other practices before I finally decided to quit trying to force it. So I had to give up the thing that I had been searching for so long I continue with Frantzis' material primarily. I supplement with a few other things I'd rather not talk about. I will say that yes, I have had interesting things happen to me. On a near daily basis. It makes me quite happy with myself and quite confident in the direction my personal practice is going. However, if you were to ask me: "do you have anything that is objectively verifiable? Reliably repeatable?" I would have to answer no. If you were to ask me: "is there any logical reason for why you think your practices are going to give you what you want?" I would have to answer no. I fail at the standards that I have set out for my goals of my practice, as well as the standards I have set for others when it comes to the claims I make. Do I think I'll meet my standards one day? Hell yes. Do I know anything else? Hell no.

Hey -O-, nice to see you around! I really like your posts Good stories, and interesting thoughts. The only thing I have to say is that calling something a "metaphor" just to cover your tracks because you made claims about physical processes which are easily verifiable but you won't, or you can't, verify them for other people is.... well, it's sketchy at best. There are stories of people achieving rainbow body, and leaving behind just some finger nails or something. That is physical and that is verifiable. But since that's pretty rare, and you have to be there as it happens, well, I'm not holding my breath waiting for some explanation of it. But I remember hearing claims that Max could go into rainbow body at any time, but just chose to stay here. Stories of Kan seem to get more and more fantastic over time as well. One story has a coffee cup passing through his hand as he spontaneously experiences something in a coffee place. That seems pretty physically verifiable! Unless that's a metaphor too? See where I'm going? I'm not against metaphorical descriptions just.... be clear when you are using a metaphor. Otherwise.... well, it's just sketchy. Why not be up front about what you can and cannot do? About what can and cannot be done with the methods? Or what has and hasn't been experienced by practitioners of those methods?

But there are people who can coach your singing and teach you to play the guitar. Sure, depending on your natural level of skill it might be hard. But it can be done. There are sets of credentials that you can judge them by, and there are tried and true methods to learn to become a good singer.... or at least, better than you are singer. Everyone is up front about it. No one is hiding behind dogma. There's no secret to becoming a famous musician: practice, fail, practice, starve, practice, get side jobs, practice, fail, practice, fail....... WIN!

No, please do say something. Because it IS how I want to spend my time. If you have any valid criticisms, I'd like to hear them. You have given great advice in the past, and even in this thread, that I have really taken to heart. I am open to hearing what you have to say. I won't take offense. We are discussing ideas, not people.

There's some stuff I edited in after my initial posting, about standards for myself and others. Please give it some consideration before doing whatever it is you are doing.

No, the point is that I have not had an experience that I've had any way of verifying that it 1) did not occur solely within my own mind/imagination, and 2) was not created by a cognitive bias (such as the confirmation bias). It doesn't make me "feel like I'm on drugs". Rather, SOME of the effects are similar to the reported effects of various drugs. Which makes me even MORE determined to find something that is 1) externally verifiable 2) repeatable. Because if all I want to get is a shift in consciousness, expansion of awareness, and yadda yadda, I can do it a whole lot easier with drugs. And I don't know of any drugs around today that make people invisible, immortal, and give them other siddhi like abilities! So, I will do as I have always done: continue my practice. It is my life. However, I hold myself to a high standard. There's something I want, and I will not stop till I get it, and I am well aware of the means with which I can fool myself, so I am holding myself to a very high standard. I am also holding others to a high standard. If someone comes around making a claim which is 1) externally verifiable and 2) repeatable, I will ask them to demonstrate it. I am not asking anything from others that I would not ask of myself. If you want to keep your practices and achievements secret? Fine. Don't talk about them. That's your prerogative. If you're going to start running your mouth, posting pics, doing demos, expect to be held to the strictest standards possible. At least for me. Everyone else can believe what they want to believe. Let's just remember that there were university programs dedicated to studying how Uri Geller bent spoons because they took it at face value that what he was doing was what he said he was going.

Interesting.

It's because they didn't even bother with the "low level" stuff, and went straight to the "high level stuff." Transforming consciousness, cultivating virtue, yadda yadda. But if such a person were to meet a person with a gun determined to kill them.... well, I'm sure by "accepting" and yielding they'd be okay! It's not like a parlor trick like disappearing or controlling them with energy would be very helpful or appropriate.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand, I'm trying to be as clear as possible. I haven't done "insubstantial paths" for four years. It took me two years to find a path, now I've found it. I think I've made great progress, had some interesting experiences, but nothing so far that's objectively verifiable, and nothing that is in any way different than drug induced phenomena. Any logically thinking person would have moved on long ago. Heck, any logically thinking person with the experiences I've had would have stopped as soon as I started hearing the same old rhetoric. But I'm still at it. Why? I have a good feeling about it, even though I have no clear evidence that what I'm doing even leads to what I want- it's just the best thing that I've found so far that fits me. But my personal experiences do not change the overall climate of the spiritual community, and the shenanigans that occur on a daily basis!

Has it ever occurred to you, or anyone else, that the reason people quit is because there is not a systematic way for revealing to people a method of uncovering these abilities? Sure, you can say, "well that's not the point", but let's face it: many people ARE in it for the powers, the status, whatever. Sure, they might come to some realization along the way. Or they might not. But that's besides the point. Sure, you can say that each person is different, yadda yadda. But really, just think about it from that person's perspective. They year you, with one breath, say, "this practice can unlock your powers/potential." They say, "I am tired of being powerless, I want to be empowered!" So they practice the practice for such and such amount of time. Sometimes for days, sometimes weeks, sometimes months, sometimes years. They hear you say, "oh yeah, uncover, empower". But it's not working. So then they finally ask: "What's the deal? Why haven't I unlocked any of my powers?" And they hear you say, "oh, well that's not really what this is about. It's more about a change in consciousness. About becoming wise." It's like..... wow, well, you say that NOW. But you ALSO tell people it can unlock powers. But since there is no investigation of 1) the people who proclaim to have powers and are out in the public (so as not to bother people who want to keep their practices and powers private) and 2) the methods with which those people got those powers, and 3) how those methods can be applied to people, well, it fails. More Pie Guy talks about practices from a marketing perspective. Yeah, you can complain about commodification all you want, but think it through: you are pitching a practice as being able to give a certain thing, but you aren't investigating it, and nobody is getting the thing they signed up for the practice for. NO WONDER PEOPLE QUIT! It's not a mystery! It's not that their "selfish", it's not that their "blind", it's not that there is something wrong with them. It's that the product they are getting is not what they are told it was to begin with! OF COURSE they're going to find something else that DOES suit their goals!

I'm taking upper level astronomy classes as part of my science requirements at my university, and I am amazed at how often my professors make comments that are so analogous to spiritual traditions (such as taoism and buddhism). These are people who, as far as their research goes, are empiricists. They only make statements based on what phenomena have been observed, as well as what they think theoretically can be observed. And here they are saying the same things about life and the universe that you hear spiritual gurus saying! I always found it funny, not how people make dichotomies between "science" and "spirituality", "head people" vs. "heart people", but how they think these dichotomies mean that one group must have something the other group doesn't/can't have. If two people are trying to explore the world and learn through direct experience, to uncover the illusions of the world and try to find what's really there, aren't their goals the same? And if what they discover is really there, then shouldn't a scientist come to the same conclusion as a cultivator? That's what I think, and I smile every time I sit in class and hear my professor talk about what psychics experiments have done, and what theories have been found to have real correspondents!