Sloppy Zhang

"Okay.... okay... whatever, I give up. I just thought it was a nice tree." "But the seeker's ignorance must be destroyed with the machine gun of truth."

Is it a "sleepiness", or is it a feeling of, "I don't really care"? Because I reached a point where, when facing a lot of social situations, I just.... didn't care. I started to think, "where is this getting me?" "Don't I have things I'd rather be doing?" It was a re-prioritization of my life, as well as an increased awareness of how draining useless activities really are. I still have great conversations with people, I still like to go out and have fun, it's just, I do it when I feel like it's the right thing to do, and when I want to do it, rather than doing it because of some social convention, or because it's what I used to do.

Initiation Into Hermetics was actually written by Franz Bardon (who may or may not have been a reincarnation or had knowledge from further back). It's a good method, there are lots of great resources online (such as commentaries, discussion boards, etc) for it online. Worked with it, and other methods of western magic (such as stuff from the Golden Dawn, a bit of Crowley's stuff) for a little over a year. It's not for me. Looking for something of a more taoist flavor Nice overview of general magic mechanics.

I seem to recall reading some story that was posted a long while ago, I guess it's just one of those things that get passed around. Anyway, some guy goes to a zen school, because he wants to do meditation and stuff, and he sits with a teacher, who instructs him. The teacher tells him to sit in stillness, and just be aware without focusing on any one thing. The guy does this and several minutes go by, and the guy is all like, "nothing happened." And the teacher goes, "wow, you are great master already." If you want a practice with "results", you are going to need a practice that is geared towards those "results." What "results" are you looking for? Magic powers? Trippy visions? Physical immortality? Sudden insight into the nature of the universe?

I'd like to start this thread from a couple of conversations that have popped up over the Golden Dragon Body thread. I'd really like to discuss this topic, and since a lot more could be said on this topic that isn't directly related to Kunlun, I figured it'd be good for its own thread Basically: is there anything that is "real", or "true"? There are lots of examples of things that "depend" on something else. Is there a point where we can get to where we can successfully say something is "true"? Posts that inspired this topic:

Dr. Yang's categories are pretty helpful to get a general overview, but it's a lot more complicated than that. B.K. Frantzis teaches what he has called "Longevity Breathing", which is a kind of normal/buddhist belly breathing. On the inhale, the front and sides of your belly expand, your lower back expands, as well as your upper back and the side of the ribs. The front of the chest does not expand, and on the exhale, everything returns. For Frantzis' methods, he does not teach reverse breathing until a mastery over regular breathing is had. There are general time bench marks for how many seconds an inhale/exhale should take before you consider yourself able to capably do it before learning reverse breathing, but in my experience, once you reach a certain point your body starts reverse breathing in some situations on its own. There are times when, during practice, I fully intent to do "regular" breathing, and then suddenly I reverse breathe for a while, then go back to normal. Dr. Yang does expand on his categories in a few of his books, and lists a few situations in which you might breathe reverse or normal depending on the situation (whether consciously or instinctively), so you might just wait, or maybe think about the type of things you want to do, but again, in my experience, it does happen naturally as a result of your practice. To get more familiar with Frantzis' method, pick up a copy of "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body." There's a lot more than just the breathing in there, and it's all highly useful.

I see, thanks for the suggestions

Mantak Chia's got a lot of material. Any specifics? Microcosmic orbit? Iron shirt? Fusion of five elements?

I remember that post as well

Who knows? Timing is important. Sometimes a book comes out, and no one pays attention to it. Five years later, the book is all the rage. Five years after that, no one cares. Sometimes you meet the love of your life, but things just don't seem to work out. You meet five years later, and everything goes perfect. I think that if you look at enough things, you'll see that timing is quite important. But what influences timing? Energy? Mental attitudes? You'd have to be able to accurately perceive those in order to say whether "the timing is right." Can the people teaching these methods perceive to that degree? Who knows. Is it based off some astrology thing? Maybe. But stars and planets move all the time, even a lot of charts used for modern astrology are outdated. So depending on what you are looking at, we may have been in the age of Aquarius for a long time, or we might not get there for a long time! Now if you're at the level where you can feel how everything in the universe affects things on earth, then you'd know.... but who is at the point? You? The people teaching the method?

I see what you're saying, and do agree.... to a certain extent.

How is that any different from anything else though? We teach chemistry in college, then people go off and teach terrorists how to make bombs with stuff you can buy at Wal-Mart. We teach martial arts to kids, who turn around and use it to bully other kids. We produce guns that people can obtain to kill people for no reason. Are we going to shut all of those people down because they have a potential for harm? I don't think so, because the same progress that can lead to harm can (and has) lead to great good. Everything I've seen that while psychics and stuff might be consulted, their main usage seems to be in cold cases and things like that. Basically, a last ditch effort in cases when they don't have anything else to go on. I saw an episode of the Tyra Banks show where she had a bunch of "psychic kids" up there. Also a guest was Allison Dubois, whose life has been "adapted" in a way to the television show "Medium." Anyway, at the end they picked a bunch of random people out the crowd for the kids and Allison to "read". Generic stuff. They'd look at a middle aged person and go, "it feels like you have a child....." It's like because there's NO way you'd be able to know that! I don't know. But it's how stuff gets treated all the time (especially around here). Just peruse through some old threads on siddhis, psychic powers, paranormal abilities, qi powered super martial arts, etc etc. No, not think of me as "a president." But see me as the CURRENT president. As in, I'd walk into a room and make everyone think I was Obama. Then I'd give some speech and everyone would be like, "wow, it was totally Obama." Then it's like, in reality, Obama was on the other side of the planet. But thousands of people would be like, "no, I saw him, for real he was there!". THAT kind of illusion.

Well it's "low level" like, "extra stuff", "distractions", "not the real path" etc etc etc. Pretty much, "serious practitioners" don't pay attention to stuff like that. I think it'd still be pretty significant if I can make an entire crowd of people think I was the president for however long I wanted.

Maybe they actually care about getting teachings that actually work out to people? I find it funny that many people overlook really "low level" spiritual feats- stuff like clairvoyance, telekinesis, illusions and things like that. They say stuff like, "oh yeah, I could easily do that, but then decided to turn on to real stuff, like awareness and things like that." It's like.... you could go a LONG way into exploring the nature and capabilities of humans if you explored and shared those "low level" things. Again, it is infuriating and incredibly sad to see people say stuff like, "yeah, I could use clairvoyance to find people, but I'm not going to. What's the point other than money and selfish fame? I'd rather focus on real stuff." When you have people like Natalie Holloway who still can't be found, alive or dead.

freeform discussed some pretty good situations in which even something that is dedicated to seeking an "impartial" truth (like science) can still be molded and shaped by outside influences, personal agendas, and things of that sort: And taomeow related an interesting story that suggests that what's happening might really depend on who's looking (and also provided the title for the thread ):

But then one can respond that it all depends on who is eating. Some people have super high metabolisms and can eat a whole bunch of horrible food, but stay super skinny. Some people eat one piece of pizza and it goes straight to their belly! Some smoke and drink heavily in their early years, and live till their 80's or 90's, while others carry on the same behavior and suffer from massive organ failure in their 20's! I'm not saying I necessarily agree. But I see where the argument comes from. If this is the case, there are some pretty large implications that should be explored.

Interesting stuff, z00se! What did you learn/how did you practice to be able to get to this point?

I completely agree with all this as well I do remember this story Now all of what's been brought up is very good.... but where does it leave us? If everything depends on who's looking, and if every process is subject to alternate agendas which aim to create reality.... then we're left with nothing really said for any shared sense of reality. A "real" teaching can be just as "real/fake" as a "fake" teaching. A practice that "hurts" you can be just as "effective/ineffective" as a practice that "helps" you. Don't know how I feel about that one. There is just some stuff that does not work. There are just some people who are not what they say they are. You could go out on a limb and say, "well the stuff that doesn't work teach you how NOT to do something", but that's pushing it, and when you get into points like that.... well, if nothing is real anyway, what's the point?

Ever occur to you that I can't afford a seminar BECAUSE of college? Guess not. Which is why, if I'm going to set aside an extra couple hundred dollars, I'm going to make sure it's a damn good seminar, that the teacher is legit, and the teachings I'm going to receive are legit. If it's something I can do at home with a book, I'd rather do that (and I do!). I've taken chances time and again, "blindly believing" thinking I'd make real progress if I was a "good student", shut up, chopped wood, and carried water. And that didn't get me anything but a sore back and a lot of extra firewood! You get what you put into it. If you aren't willing to investigate and ask questions, you are going to get nothing but a bunch of lies into your face! BULLSHIT! It's BECAUSE I am passionate about exploring these things that I am looking at them so critically! It angers and saddens me that so many frauds are able to go around scot free because NOBODY is held to any standard. A "real" teacher and a "fraud" can stand shoulder to shoulder, pronounce their teachings, and no one would have any way of knowing which one is real and which one is fake because NO ONE is actually DOING anything! Let's get some results and put the fakes out for good! As the saying goes, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." And there are a whole lot of "good" men out there doing a whole lot of NOTHING! And charging you out the wazoo for it! I don't think you realize how EVERYONE in ANY field has to subject themselves to the SAME scientific criticisms. I have a physics professor who does not accept the global warming caused by CO2 emissions model that has been put out. There's just not enough evidence for him to accept that particular model. He's considered a crackpot! Do you know how much sleep he loses at night? NONE! I suppose he's a more spiritually realized person, as he's realized how stupid it is to be obsessed with something as fleeting as reputation? There's also a story of Frodo Baggins and the War of the Ring. They made a couple good movies about it too. Now all he has to do is "believe" in front of a skeptical audience that is monitoring the conditions of the experiment, and he'd be *chuckle* golden!

All I'm saying is that, in the search for something that is actually true/working/effective/whatever you want to call it, just saying, "oh well, anything's possible!" doesn't actually get you anywhere. As ralis put it earlier, some people just want to cut through the crap. I want to cut through the crap. There are a BUNCH of teachers out there teaching stuff that does. not. work. and they come up with all these excuses for why they can't legitimize their claims, yet are still expecting you to bow and scrape and hand over your money. Then you got people teaching stuff which they claim works, and has worked for them. But don't really do anything to actually legitimize the claim, and instead comes up with reason upon reason for why they can't show anything to anybody. These SEEM a bit more legitimate than the obvious fakes, but there's nothing REALLY there to REALLY put them over the edge. They just have their credentials in order, and may or may not act the part. And they still ask for various forms of your money. Then you got other people saying that the previous person's practice does work, that they've experienced it, but don't do anything to legitimize the claim. These people may be experiencing something, but they come up for all these reasons for why they can't prove it, even if their claims are easily verifiable through the means a non-cultivated person has at their disposal. These people might also just be delusional and following someone because they want to feel accepted, but since they are following the pattern and not trying to legitimize their claim, we'll never know! They claim it really really does work, if only you'd just try it out for yourself. And then you got people like myself. Who've been taken for a ride so many times. Thought, "I'll just give it a go, and be open minded!" Had my wallet taken, but thought, "ah, karma, I'm paying the price for real teachings!" Got nothing. Taken for more rides. Got nothing. Sometimes got hurt. Then had weird shit happen to him. Was excited for a bit. Then sees the potheads over in the corner that have had that feeling this whole time. So, how does someone in my (and no doubt, many others') situation get out? By doing the same thing? By really believing all the nice people who really said it works, and really believed it works? Sorry, Scotty. Again, you're a nice guy. But it's like..... you gotta come up with something better than that. You can call it negativity. I call it experience. What separates real teachers from fake teachers? NOTHING. Their pitch is identical. Their behaviors are identical. All that has to happen is ONE real teacher step forward, and set the standard. If the fakes can't abide by that standard, then they are obviously fakes. Just like every other aspect of life. The fakes will fail, the real deals will act.

Who said I'd quit caring? I'd be satisfied to know it's been verified. That doesn't mean I would stop trying to do it myself! I know that people are capable of producing great art. If I want to draw, does knowledge of that put me any closer? Know! It still requires lots of work. But it's good to know 1) what my goal is and 2) the steps I need to get there. It's also possible that I have a pink unicorn next to me telling me everything about you. But I'm not going to verify any of this info with you, because it told me not to. Besides, it would freak you out. But you can get your own pink unicorn that will tell you all kinds of cool stuff (what it tells you is up to you, though!). Then you'd know it's real. This pink unicorn will also tell you the secrets of life empowerment and enlightenment. But only if you're meant to have it. Come to my seminar! It's gonna be next month. Just pay me $300 through paypal, and I'll reserve you a spot. No, really, it's real....... No guarantee though. Sometimes it just doesn't work for people. That's just karma. But sometimes people who smoke marijuana see this pink unicorn, and it tells them stuff. But that's not the real pink unicorn. It's just a fake. A shortcut that the ego wants to grasp and hold on to. Don't take short cuts. They will get you nowhere. The point is, leaving the possibility open gets us NOWHERE practically.

From what I recall of the story (which is nothing but word of mouth that I recall from a significantly older post in one of the older Kunlun threads) it was just his hand (at that time, anyway). But it is still a reasonable question. If you start to disappear, what about your clothing?

I'd be satisfied knowing that it's been verified. You should share with the rest of us, and with the scientific community. If you're a senior in college, you should go down to a department like psychology, or physics, or statics, and do it. If the moral intelligence of the energy is up for it

It's called the peer review process. It allows us to hold other people responsible, and prevents them from making outrageous claims with no foundation. Before it becomes accepted in science, it will necessarily have to go through many, many, many studies. You'd have to verify it. Otherwise it could be your own delusions. Medical studies should be published somewhere. What is the name of this doctor? What was this doctor's specialty? Was it a medical doctor qualified enough to make an accurate judgment? Would that doctor put the full support of his or her career behind that statement, or was it an in passing, off the cuff remark? Just like in my car example, I'm not going to buy a car unless I know that the car is going to give me what I need. Seminars + travel = LOTS of money. As a current college student, I have lots of costs just to do what I'm doing right now. If I were to add the cost of something else, I'd have to make sure it was good BEFORE I put out hundreds of dollars on it. If I wanted to do something more extreme, such as dropping my college education entirely to bet my life on supposed "genuine teachings", then I'd need to have an even better prospect (as in, be completely convinced that what I'm going after is 1) possible and 2) I can do it).

I see. yeah I'm not very optimistic. But you never know. Sometimes it gets the wheels turning in other peoples' minds, and before you know it, revolution!