Sloppy Zhang

A picture is worth a thousand words. It might take a long time to explain a movement, but show a picture, even better, show a set of pictures as the movement progresses, and you've cut down about 3-5 thousand words that don't need to be said. Add in some general principles of movement that the student should be expected to maintain at all times, and you've suddenly described a rather complex movement in a format that can be put in a book. Maybe add an instructional DVD, and voila- complex movement delivered right to your doorstep. Is there are going to be a teacher there to nitpick every detail? Of course not (unless the teacher psychically observes you). But for a dedicated student with the passion and ability, they can do a lot with that movement. It's 2010. C'mon people. It's not like you gotta etch your qigong movements in a stone cave with a chisel. Any idiot with a camera can video tape themselves doing something stupid and put it on youtube in a matter of minutes. Surely a qigong/neigong teacher determined to teach people the "genuine technique" can at least make a 10 minute youtube vid that illustrates the final points.

All I see are the words "genitals" "blow" "mouth full" and "swallow"......... That said, I got very confused after the first couple of posts..... it was like some posts were deleted, 'cause I couldn't tell why people were saying what they were saying or what they were responding to!

I agree. Sorry if it came across otherwise in a previous post.

In the books I've read, B.K. Frantzis doesn't advocate doing reverse breathing until you're at a good point with regular breathing. I don't know if his position has changed/developed/refined in the time since his books have come out, and I've never met him personally (Pietro just got back from a three week session with him, so you might consider asking Pietro). However, I will say that in my experience reverse breathing does arise naturally from normal breathing. There are times when suddenly my body will start reverse breathing, even though my intention is to do regular belly breathing. When it happens, I just go with it, but I don't ever try to reverse breathe.

I don't know what to say to this I'm of the opinion that, 9 times out of 10, a finished series should just be left alone.

Well, I suggest you get the book "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" by B.K. Frantzis, because a good breathing technique (which he has called "Longevity Breathing") is explained really well there. Basically, the abdomen breathing is not the only thing that should be moving. Not only the front of your belly should expand, but also the sides of your belly, as well as the back of your belly. While you don't breathe from the front of the chest, having the lungs expand forward, you breathe from the upper back, having the lungs expand to the back, as well as breathing from the sides of your chest, as the lungs expand to the side of your chest. This is something that if you aren't used to, will take some practice. In an older book by William Walker Atkinson on yogic breathing, he does mention that there's a full type of breath in which everything, including the top of the chest (which he says most people breathe from to begin with, causing shallow breathing), expands. There have been some situations in which I get the sudden impulse to breathe from the front of my chest, as well as with everything else, and in those situations I do so, but I don't do it all the time, and I don't feel the need to do it all the time either. It's kinda like stretching- when you need to do it, it feels good, but there's no point in doing it all the time (at least for me, anyway). Furthermore, trying to breathe, or trying to lead the breath, will lead to strain. In my experience, if you LET the breath come in, the whole process becomes much easier. As you want to breathe, relax everything, and let the air come in naturally. Try to "follow" the breath, not "lead" it. The breath, and the energy within the breath, and the feeling of the breath, should lead. When this happens, you naturally let the energy and the awareness fall, and it naturally sinks to the dantien, and then as you exhale, naturally rises from the dantien and goes out. It's kinda tricky to explain, but basically, you want to let the process happen by itself. Because it will happen by itself. If you get out of the way and let it happen. In this way, you can maintain a relaxed state, not strain, get a good, strong, natural energy flow, and avoid all the problems with overdoing it.

Everyone and everything is (or at least, can be) a teacher, because everyone and everything contains lessons that can be learned. If you believe we're all part of something, or if you believe there is some unifying force which connects us all, or exists in all things, or if you think there is some natural way that the world works, then why do you need someone to tell you what it is? The truth should be self evident to anyone willing to look at the situation as it's happening. Free of delusions and propaganda and personal bias- just see what is. To this extent, it's important to still your mind, listen, and observe. Don't look at something and think you know what it is. Just look at something. Watch a bird fly. Watch the sun rise and set. Observe the changing of the seasons, and what things change with it. Observe human interactions. Observe your own body. Relax. Don't think, feel (Bruce Lee and Qui-Gon Jinn said that, so it must be true!) Travelling to China would be a serious waste of time and money, unless you speak Chinese, have some kind of contacts there, or if it was really your destiny (if you believe in that kinda stuff) to meet a master there. Maybe I'm wrong. There weren't a lot of good teachers in my area when I started, so I learned to become self reliant. I'm not averse to having a nice teacher who knows what they are talking about to show me the way. But there aren't a lot of people with both genuine knowledge, and the ability to genuinely pass it along.

Yes, he has done quite a bit. B.K. Frantzis mentions several times in his books that he doesn't want to put a lot of energy intensive stuff out there. But he does allude to certain practices. And of the stuff that he's alluded to, I've seen in Chia's works with the details on how to do it all there. So he definitely has brought a lot of good stuff, I think. People like to pull stuff out of context.

Three week course.... damn! Thanks for bringing back this bit of information. In my opinion, it stresses the need for a full system of cultivation. Sex cultivation can be good.... in the proper context, and done properly, supported by a healthy body with healthy energy circulation, and other proper practices. Interesting story (rumor?) about the little Taiwanese booklet.

Well, the thing about teachers is that they can correct your posture, tell you exactly how to do a technique, road signs to look out for so you know you're doing it right, danger signs to look for if you start doing it wrong, and they can recommend fixes for any problems you are having. When I started qigong, I wasn't in an area with too many great teachers. Once I got to college, I found that time + cost of travel + constant cost of classes was a bit too much for me. With a book/DVD, it's a one time payment that you make, and, if you do research and find good materials, that one book can last you a LONG time (if you really get in and try to master every little detail). On top of that, I believe that, if qigong really works the way it's supposed to, then it should work even if you are learning without a teacher- after all, we all have a human body. The originators of these qigong sets discovered them by listening to the body, stilling the mind, observing the way energy naturally flows, and then going along with that. Before someone realized there was the MCO, people weren't leading energy through it. Someone stilled their mind, and felt that their energy started to flow in a certain way. They felt energy pass through large and small energy centers of the body. They felt it flow through the meridians. And in some cases, they stuck needles in people to figure out what would happen (not recommended!) So basically, if you still the mind, listen, and let the energy go where it needs, rather than you trying to direct the energy, then you should be relatively safe, even on your own. Rather than making energy go somewhere, just notice where it goes. In some cases, you can pay special attention to where the energy is flowing, and gently ease the energy through there, but you should avoid trying to make the energy go there. I find that the methods B.K. Frantzis teaches go along with that philosophy. I've had some great successes just with what he teaches in the book. Still the mind, and listen. Feel (for extra lessons, see Star Wars ) But really. When you LET things happen, and you RELAX, a lot of good things happen, and a lot of problems associated with qigong can easily be avoided. And if you're studying on your own, you can make stead, but safe, progress.

(I know you said you're done, but I have some recommendations, if you just want those, skip down to it, I labeled it ) Well first of all, thanks for trying! Second of all, there are a number of common effects that can explain a few things (if you believe them). One of them is that some practices bring all your shit to the surface. This is one of the things kunlun is designed to do. There were a TON of Kunlun threads, and a LOT of them were 30-40+ pages. The one where Yoda shared his experiences was interesting. But there are a few people who came forward to give really good experiences. So, part of Kunlun in particular is it's designed to be FAST.... which can cut both ways if you aren't ready for it. So, I'd say you kinda got a bum deal by starting with Kunlun. Especially as a first go because.... well, as you can tell, experiences are extreme, both good and bad. And extreme isn't always what you want from the start. Another aspect is starting to get sick after doing the practice. This again, is because part of qigong is you getting to feel your body and the stuff that's inside. A lot of times, we are sick and we don't even know it. Kind of like if you're running through the woods, and get your arms and legs cut up by briers. You don't notice it when you're running, but when you cool down, and look at your body, you start to feel the stinging cuts all over. Qigong is about slowing down, and taking stock of things. So if you start to feel like shit, it may just be you've ALWAYS felt like this, but just didn't know it. Of course, if it persists for a while, do stop and get some professional to take a look (western medicine or TCM doctor), as well as not returning to the practices for a while. I don't know much about Spring Forest qigong, but some of the stuff seems pretty advanced- even for the introductory levels. A lot of people might disagree, but assuming you're an absolute beginner, it might just be a tad too much. Also, doing new things, like reverse breathing, might be strange because you aren't used to it. Falun Gong, also don't know much about- it's fairly controversial politically, but from what (little) I've read of the practices, they don't seem that bad. Okay, I know you said you'd stop.... but, I still have a few recommendations. RECOMMENDATIONS I highly suggest you get the book "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" by B.K. Frantzis. He teaches a very important "dissolving technique", which basically teaches you how to identify and get rid of blockages. Why is this important? Because if you start running energy through your body before it is clear, you are going to run into problems. This method teaches you some very important lessons, from body alignments, to important energy centers, to how to deal with problems BEFORE they arise. Also, it is geared to the COMPLETE BEGINNER. Frantzis keeps the information solid, the techniques useful, and the energy LOW. I think what happened is you started to get too much energy too fast. At first it felt good, but later caused problems because you didn't know how to handle it or weren't used to it. Frantzis' book will teach you how to manage it. For some good theory and background, as well as a few other exercises, get "Relaxing Into Your Being" and "The Great Stillness". If you want a form, "Dragon and Tiger Medical Qigong" is a great book, and he just came out with a DVD to run through the form. The only downside with Frantzis' material, is it's low impact, low energy, and completely geared towards the beginner (so if you've read up on the subject before hand, some of the stuff may sound a bit repetitive). HOWEVER, the things he taught are CRUCIAL exercises, and are, in my experience, UNIVERSAL. You may upgrade to a higher energy system once you get a hold of the basics, but when you have a problem, you will go back to those basics to help you fix it. (so stuff like microcosmic orbit is considered a more "advanced" skill, and reversed breathing isn't even touched until you can breathe normally for a good chunk of time, like, a 20 second breath, ten seconds in, ten seconds out, but relaxed the whole time.... and some people teach MCO and reverse breath from the start, so there's some perspective). Whatever you decide to do, I hope you have fun. I think you did a lot of things right- stopping when things felt wrong. That was smart.

I don't think "fuck" is a censored word. You might offend people, but if you're going to say "fuck", you could start by spelling it right! If you want to meditate on what you are, well, you could start by what type of being you are. Are you a human being? If so, you probably got here as a result of fucking, so you could at least pay it some respect! On a slightly more serious note (that's not to say you should disregard the valuable meditations on the act of procreation), trying to think it out is not going to get you anywhere, and probably WILL make you lose your mind. If you push this thought process, there reaches a point when the thoughts get so strong and so confusing, you either break down, or suddenly everything dissipates. At least, that's the case in my experience.

There's a difference between breaking for training and breaking for show. Using tricks to help breaking during training is only going to cheat yourself. Quality over flashiness is better. It helps you see where you are in various attributes, and what you need to work on to get better. That's all well and good. Breaking for show.... well that's when you get into a tricky area. Because the show break isn't meant for you. It's meant for other people. So there's pressure to make it cool and there's pressure to make sure it goes smoothly. You don't want to look like an idiot by failing a break in front of a bunch of people, which might make them not want to train your art (possibly under your instruction). And when that happens, most people are very tempted to cut corners. It's very easy to make a set up that is easy for you. It's easy to use some stage tricks. I remain skeptical of breaking for showmanship because of the different motivations and the other factors which come into the equation over various other forms of breaking.

I hate to rain on a very sexy thread.... actually, never mind. I'd make the thread even sexier by getting it wet There's a lot of trickery and tomfoolery that goes along with this breaking business. The stuff this guy was breaking was stuff that I broke in my karate class when I was 12. TWELVE. I remember it was for a belt test, and my teacher was like, "all right, time to break stuff". And I was like, "I can't do that!" I had very little leg strength. Barely any surface conditioning. And the thing was a freakin' cinder block slab. But it was set up in just the right way, that as long as I hit it and followed through, I'd break it. Easily. I thought I was awesome. Then my mom did the same thing at home then my dad explained how it all worked The point is, "selective board breaking"? Hm, I dunno. Especially the way that the second video was set up (I mean those blocks looked like they were barely on the support blocks). So, yeah, breaks are cool. Yeah, they're flashy. Yeah, it's a neat idea to channel your chi through stuff and hit only a certain target, while leaving the stuff around it unharmed. Is it going on in the video? Are there really people who can do it? Is there a simple trick behind it? Is it really qi power? Can people pull off a demonstration without making me suspicious of it within the first second? Questions, questions. I hope you all wet now. Even if it's just a little And now it's time for the rain cloud to depart, please continue with your parade!

I did, in fact, watch it. If I pulled out every line I thought was good, I'd be pulling out half the dialogue of the video (the other half was him gasping awe and going, "oh, amazing" "oh, wonderful" "oh, amazing" "ah, I don't even comprehend it" "ah, so simple" "ah, amazing".... but I guess that's standard commentary for stuff like this)

This thread needs a new title. Those blocks were looking kind of flat, and this is supposed to be a "sexy" thread.

Only when I've been assimilated by the borg (happened on two separate occasions.... don't ask), or when I've lost my mind (only happened once so far.... again, don't ask). But in general I have a(n) (un)healthy separation from my fellow human, animal, plant, and mineral kingdoms

Difficult to grasp indeed! Maybe let go instead? Ack, duality!

Well that's the thing though- the intent wasn't self mutilation or pain, it was rather, the exploration of sensation When I said "see how far I could go", it wasn't out of some intent to see how much pain I could stand. It was more like.... I was feeling an intense sensation, and I thought, "some people would consider this masochism.... wait.... I consider this masochism!" (I also make it a habit to avoid pain in general). But within the context of just exploring sensation, I wasn't near as far as I could go- I could still feel more. So I wasn't really thinking of it as pain. Anyway, I might just be turning into some depraved psycho but I'm a big believer in intent being a big factor. And as objectively masochistic as my actions sound, I assure you, it was an exploration of feeling and sensation, as well as awareness in general, not pain! But I did see how people could come to think of it as pleasurable. Pleasurable in the sense of a very, very intense experience.

Hmm, I hope not! I don't know who mentioned this (I want to say it was little1) but a while ago on this forum I remember someone saying that when they were a kid they would run their hands under hot and cold water simultaneously. In really really hot water and really really cold water, they mentioned that all their felt was "sensation". It was neither hot nor cold, just a really intense feeling. One day I was scratching my arm, and I was paying very close attention just to the feeling. I remembered that post I just described, and decided to try scratching harder and harder, paying attention just to he sensation. Eventually I was digging my nail into my skin, by this point I was just partly seeing how far I could go, and when I was just focusing on the feeling, it was just a very strong sensation. Felt kind of nice to feel something so strongly. Then I stopped and was like, "oh no, I'm turning into a masochist! What will marblehead think of me!" anyway, that made me reflect a little bit on various things. But the POINT is that now I'm the one taking the thread off topic, when that is the subject of some forum business!

Some people like pain.

Aren't "order" and "chaos" just another duality to transcend?

Is it really that the people in question think they are superior? Or is it that other people just can't stand to see someone who has powerful convictions and leave them alone? I just don't see what other people have against the members in question.

Good points on the business perspective, but another something to consider is that this is, well, the internet. Anonymity gives people bravery. It lets people say things they would never say in real life. It lets them act in ways they never would act in real life. More or less with immunity. A forum with lax moderation like this one (which I really love, btw) can cut both ways- it opens up a thread to start in one place, go through a variety of hills and valleys, leave no stone unturned, and arrive at the end, with everyone involved having learned a lot about a lot of things. I think there have been threads in the past that really dissected every term brought up and every question and viewpoint, and at the end, everyone walked away better for it. But then you have the problem that some threads get stuck on one point that repeat over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Honestly, in my opinion it just comes with the territory. Have a free forum, with the risk of lots of off topic discussions, or having a closely moderated forum, with discussions that get clipped just because they hit a few bumps. I'm a member of a few other forums that follow the latter approach. It really, really bugs me. Maybe I'm just anti authority. Or maybe it's because I think that, well, no man is an island, and neither is one topic. Especially on a spiritual discussion forum, spirituality, by its very nature, affects EVERYTHING. So even if you bring up a thread about a specific point, there are going to be tangential points that get brought up. If people are hung up on a tangential point that was brought up, and then discussion stops because it's "off topic", well.... who knows where that might have gone? It might have just been a kink that worked itself out, and could have gone on to something new. So the thread hits a rough patch, okay, move the discussion along, or stop posting. I dunno. People feel that certain members always come into a thread and derail it? I haven't seen that. What I HAVE seen, is that people go on attack mode as soon as a certain forum member makes a post. It is THEIR knee jerk responses, which are then responded to, which are then responded to, that cause a thread to derail. Comments like- "At it again?" "Didn't you say that in another thread?" "Why do you always have to stick your view into something?" If someone is a Christian, they are going to respond to a topic from a Christian point of view. It goes without saying that in every thread that asks a question, they are going to respond with the Christian point of view. So again, I don't think moderator action is really necessary. I think people need to take a step back, and look at what it is they are doing, and look at what it is they are posting. Are you posting a response to a person's comment within the context of the thread? Or are you bringing up someone's past history into the thread? Honestly, there are situations in which I agree with a person in one thread, and then in another thread disagree with them completely. I feel totally fine laughing at a person's post and saying, "totally!" in one thread, and then turning around and saying, "your point does not take into account....." Most of the thread derailing that I've seen, DON'T come from people responding to individual posts that gets it off topic, but in bringing in the past history of the person, as well as the occasional personal jab.

I personally don't feel that moderator action is necessary in this situation. Especially because of this: Conversations have ways of working themselves out. If action is taken to stem conversation, or which prevents people from posting stuff which others may feel is too "off topic", who knows what might wind up NOT being said? It takes two (or more) to make a thread go off topic. The problem is not the one person who interjects their opinion- the problem is that endless amounts of people feel the need to comment on that person's opinion. "You shouldn't post that here." "Why do you always bring up that topic?" "Why don't you just stop talking, we've heard this before" yadda yadda. Suddenly one person's opinion explodes into 20 posts commenting on that opinion- and that's 20 posts off topic. Perhaps everyone should be reminded that this is, uh, the internet. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone is going to post their opinion. It should be obvious by now that the people posting are posting their..... opinions. Maybe it's an off the cuff statement, or maybe it's backed up by 20 years of training and personal experience. But it still boils down to opinions. If you don't agree with that person's opinion, that's fine..... but do you really need to let the world know that you don't agree with that opinion? I don't think so. I feel this issue stems less from someone trying to insert their opinion (which we all do anyway), and more with a certain group of people who take objections with that opinion, and make it their mission to let the world (and the thread) know about it. Perhaps everyone should read and meditate upon this: http://xkcd.com/386/ Rather than excessively posting about someone's opinion which you disagree with, it might be more prudent to think about (and carry out the action of) letting the issue go.