Sloppy Zhang

I'm not too familiar with yoga. But I am familiar with Franz Bardon's "Initiation Into Hermetics", and I am told (and from what research I've done on my own seems to corroborate this) that IIH and yoga are very similar, and that Bardon's method of develop is very close to the yogic path of development. That said.... There is a step in IIH when the student learns to transfer his/her consciousness into other things. At first it starts with inanimate objects, where you perceive yourself as and see the world from the viewpoint of the object in question. Then you move up to animals, then to people. In this way, the aspirant can "get into the mind" of someone else. Basically, you can learn everything about that person. So from the viewpoint of a teacher (and Bardon makes this point as well in his work), a teacher can transfer his/her mind into the mind of the student. So you could see exactly where the student is in terms of progression, what the student needs to work on, and what to say to the student and how to say it so that the student can understand what needs to be understood. There's another step where the student learns to identify and transfer his/her consciousness into the very center of an object. It starts with finding your own center, then you find the center of other things. Basically, yes. Assuming true development, that is. So I don't think it's fair to say "every yoga teacher" can do this. Rather, it's perhaps more appropriate and correct to say "every yoga teacher who has developed correctly" should be able to do it. That's my guess though, as I haven't encountered anyone who has actually been able to do this for me. Though you hear stories of them out there.

"Only dead fish go with the flow." - Sarah Palin

Yeah I've actually used the info I got from Vaj's posts on Buddhism in a couple of philosophy classes/clubs/conversations to help clear up some finer points that another person was attempting to make..... so, props for spreading some info.

How do you explain that part? I've never been good at explaining it, so I just don't even bother anymore Thanks for sharing your thoughts, though!

While I personally agree with the whole "same goal, different paths" thing, I've never had a Christian tell me they think the goal is the same. From the Christian point of view, if your goal aint God, Jesus, or something like that, your goal aint the true goal, and you're opening yourself up to sin and damnation. Even if you're a great guy and doing it the right way and have compassion and things like that..... Maybe I'm just talking to the wrong people. As regrettable as I find it, I don't even really discuss meditation with Christians anymore. It's not because arguments start, it's because the conversation can barely get off the ground. There's just nothing to compare.

Thanks for all that I'll let you know if I can drum up some interest from anyone willing and able to do some tests.

Personally, I do believe it's possible to cure cancer, to cure HIV/AIDS, to mend broken limbs, to develop "psychic" abilities. I think there is great potential in energy work and energy healing. But at the same time, I try to remain as objective and impartial when looking at a situation. And I have a large bias to overcome. So, I don't really mind when I hear people say, "oh well it's probably possible to do X, Y, and Z." That's neat. But when people say, "I've done X,Y, and Z", that's when, IMHO, the game changes. That's when we start getting into the realm of things that are provable. And that's also kinda getting into the subject matter of the "New Age bullies" thread. Because there ARE people suffering from cancer, or HIV/AIDS. There are innocent people wounded by street violence or wars, and have trouble getting the modern medicine cures. Then someone comes along and says, rather nonchalantly "oh well there's a cure for HIV/AIDS", "oh yeah, I can cure cancer, I know a couple people who do it all the time." It's like, stop.... time for you to start putting up those kind of skills. Proving them, and then teaching them. Because that kind of stuffy can really, really do a LOT of good to a LOT of people. And if you aren't going to go to whatever lengths is necessary to bring this to the world, if you're going to list off a bunch of conditions under which you will demonstrate your abilities, if you're going to come up with a bunch of excuses as to why you couldn't perform in a certain situation..... you should just stop talking. (this wasn't directed at any particular forum member, rather, at the general shenanigans that are allowed to go on in the spiritual/alternative medicine community)

I didn't reject you! I like you too! I was feeling kinda awkward, because I haven't seen you talk about what it is you do, but you talk about doing it all the time out in the open. I've already sent e-mails to a couple of people that I know. But it's the middle of summer break, I have no idea where they are. I'm not a science major and I'm not buddy-buddy with any professors that I feel comfortable enough sending anyone an e-mail about someone of whose methods I barely know. But I know plenty of people who are connected, and I'm in the process of contacting them (two e-mails have already gone out). So, it's going to take some time. No offense to you Hundun, but you gotta understand...... from the perspective of the greater world, people from your field aren't the most credible Seriously, you are not the first person who has gone around making grandiose claims, then when asked to perform says, "yeah well if you pay for everything." From a broke-ass college student like myself, any time you're asking someone else to pay for you is asking for the royal treatment And I'm glad to hear you don't mind motel 6 and chinese food! And as long as we're swapping friendly explanations of what irks us, stuff like this: Irks me the most. Because for years I've spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours bending over backwards, trying to get in contact with teachers that supposedly had "oh-so-great" skills that could only be demonstrated "in person".... but then it got around to show time, they fell flat on their face! All while giving off some reasons for why my disbelief in them was disrupting the qi flow. MY DISBELIEF? After all I've done to make it to them? That's kinda when it dawned on me that I had it backwards the whole time. I was taking peoples' word for it that they could do what they said they could do, and losing money out of my own pocket trying to accommodate them, when they were really not doing anything. So, sorry if I meet some of your claims with skepticism. But from past experience, most of the things you are saying are also things that many frauds have said to cover their own tracks! Not to say you aren't a fraud but..... gotta be careful, ya know?

Okay? Chillax man I don't know who you are, if you have some school or clinic, or what you do/how you teach. If you've advertised before, sorry I missed it. There are a lot of people who have "dedicated their lives" to doing stuff every day. That doesn't necessarily legitimize their work, though. I remember as a kid there was some study that showed that covering your mouth with your shoulder/upper arm when you cough is better than covering with your hand. So there was a lot of work done trying to promote this (I was in elementary school at the time, so I remember all the teachers going on and on about it). There are still a lot of people I see who cover their mouth with their hands when they cough..... but if you look at any resources for how to prevent the spread of germs (which came out a lot in the past year), they all mention how you SHOULDN'T cover your mouth with your hands. And then scientists discovered this new microscopic sea life living in the ice of antarctica, where scientists thought life like that couldn't live in those conditions... but it was. I mean.... who the fuck cares? But it was all over the news a couple of months ago So..... I dunno. Maybe there's some government conspiracy that's trying to hide AIDS cures and the discovery of qi and telekinetic abilities. But..... from what I've seen, really helpful stuff gets spread really fast, and even pointless stuff gets its 15 second nod on the evening news. And I'll say this straight up: Why does everyone with a claim expect the world to cater to them even though they've shown no proof of anything? I hardly have the cash to fly MYSELF out to places, let alone fly and ACCOMMODATE some random person from the internet (okay, you aren't really random ) just because he claims to be able to do some amazing stuff. Yeah. Anyone can make claims. The burden of proof is on the person making the claims. I don't understand why everyone is so unwilling to demonstrate their skills unless they are given a royal treatment, even though they haven't really done anything (not to diminish what you do every day...) Because, look, there are quacks all over the place doing stupid things, saying they can heal people, charging thousands of dollars for these bogus treatments, and then being all like, "yeah I've dedicated my life to this, I wouldn't have done it if it didn't work!" Okay.... right. Well it's cool that you've posted some links! Once I get back to university in the fall, I'll start asking around and see who's willing to do any experiments or tests with this kind of stuff. And I'll see what I can do about your travel and accommodations. Just don't get your hopes up too high!

Most of these involve people who decide to help people....... The reason these outlets exist is because someone decided they weren't just going to sit back their whole lives, and instead decided to do something...

There was an experiment someone did to test Therapeutic Touch a little while ago. She had the practitioner sit behind a screen, put their right and left hand through different slots. The tester, on the other side, would put one of their hands either over the right or the left hand of the therapeutic touch practitioner's, and ask which hand it was over (because the therapeutic touch people claimed they could sense the energy field of humans). Sufficed to say, they didn't score very well. [quote[Also, I really don't care about 'proving' anything, if you want to find evidence you can find it, there are huge amounts of it. If instead you look for proof that it doesn't exist you will find that Yes, the "huge amounts of evidence" out there have really convinced us that this stuff exists, because it's common knowledge!

There are a lot of problems with Randi. Anyone with some critical thinking skills and good reading comprehension can figure that out. But Randi is NOT the only one out there investigating this stuff. He is also NOT the first one to offer a monetary prize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_for_evidence_of_the_paranormal) There are people all up and down the paranormal/spiritual/occult/metaphysical/parapsychology field, and have been for decades, and no one seems to come up with anything.........

All of these sound like excuses to sit back and let other people suffer. This stuff seriously sounds like it's straight out of the new age bullies thread

So where's Neo flying around kicking ass? Or wait, do agents come and stop him? Oh, but Neo can beat the agents so...... Right, well, even the ones who "have it" aren't doing anything with it. I tried skateboarding for a year and a half. I was outside daily (it was probably one of the few outdoor activities I really liked) practicing. I could never even figure out how to ollie (one of the most basic tricks). I didn't have it I guess.... but the people who did have it, were out doing it. There's a lot of good talk about "having it" and "needing to be mature" and understanding the "right context". Okay. That's nice..... so... where is it? It's not just Randi, a lot of people are out there trying to find evidence of these phenomena.... and not getting very far along with it. I'm a university student right now. There are people all over the place looking for things to research, looking for ways to improve on what we already know. There are lots of people at all kinds of universities that would love to see you mend a broken arm in 3 days. Heck, there are some professors out there that are given more money than they know what to do with for research, and more than willing to publish their findings. I'm not out to try and discredit anyone's system, or anyone's experience. Maybe some people have it and some people don't. I don't know. But I DO know is that when claims, like the claims you've just made, are put out there..... well, they can, and I think should be, verified. Especially if you've got some HIV/AIDS cure, some cancer cure, or something else like that. I dunno. It's a "put up or shut up" situation for me. I think the spiritual community is given a lot of leeway in a lot of its claims because most of the claims are unverifiable. "Be at peace with yourself", "be connected with the world". It's like.... okay, that's pretty subjective. If it makes you feel good, do it. Okay, no big deal. But "cure aids" and "mend a broken arm in 3 days"? Okay, hold on now..... this stuff is verifiable. And you (or someone else) would make a very big splash if this stuff were brought to the public.

..... which is why we can't stop to cure HIV/AIDS with our magic healing siddhis? I'm pretty sure I could help someone who is trying to commit suicide, even if they don't want me to help them.... So I should pussy out and run away from any "extra" challenges? Have you read through the New Age Bullies thread?

Er.... what's wrong with wanting siddhis? Maybe I'd like to see the future so I could tell when someone is about to get killed in a car crash..... Maybe I'd like the ability to heal so we could overcome incurable diseases like HIV/AIDS in a cost effective way.... Maybe I'd like the ability to teleport so I don't contribute to the destruction of our planet....... Yeah, it would be great if I just had these powers. The world would be changed forever, and people would have a new and greater understanding of the human potential. So if you have a method for how to develop these, please share it. If you can already do them, please participate in a scientific study that will be submitted for peer review, and please stick around for the full process (don't just do it a couple of times then bail.... that will leave scientists with "inconclusive" results) Better than sitting in a cave all day getting high off of clenching your asshole and giving yourself blue balls (okay, that last sentence was a joke, I got mucho respect for the people who can go through long bouts of spiritual practice..... but a little help on the mundane would be nice too! ) Err, right, well, when you have to move a couch up to your third floor apartment, or remove a piano from a second floor room, having muscles, or having a guy who has muscle, is very helpful so.......

There are lots of people, including the scientific community, that would highly disagree in saying that there is "no progress" in developing these things. In fact, if anyone could positively nail down the existence of these abilities in a scientific setting, it would go a long way in developing our understanding of 1) human potential and 2) the true nature of the universe. In fact, I'd say that a big reason why people "lose faith" and don't continue on the path, is that they don't see anything, despite all their efforts. Just sayin'. Enlightenment and stuff is nice and all... but so is precognition and clairvoyance. 360 degree vision would really help in driving too I bet. A lot of good could be done with this kind of stuff.

I'm not currently Christian, but I was raised Christian and I do have a lot of Christian friends, that being said.... A common criticism made by Christians towards meditation in general, is they have the thought that if you clear your mind, and open yourself up during meditation, you are at risk for negative spirits to enter. So, drawing from my experiences from a Catholic background, at least, making comparisons to meditation really only go so far as contemplative meditations/mantra repetition meditations. So contemplating on God, Jesus, or some Holy thing would be one thing. Repetitions of prayer like the Hail Mary prayer are also common. But in my time, at least, I didn't experience much practice, teaching, or even mention of prayers that had anything to do with clearing the mind or things like that- because again, a prevalent concern was that as soon as you "empty your mind" a demon was going to jump you! As well there was the teaching that humans had the inclination to sin, and if it weren't for the mind stepping in to control base urges, a body left to its own devices would reduce itself to sinful pleasures of all kinds. So most any "stirring" from within, especially after having a clear mind, was usually labeled as something not very pure. Maybe I just got stuck in a fear mongering section of Catholicism, maybe other teachings are elsewhere, but I have had many of these concerns brought to my attention from my Christian friends from many denominations. There's even some Bible passage that they quote to me (don't remember what it is) about not trusting your own instincts/emotions/intuition/thoughts (forget the exact wording) because as a human, you have a powerful instinct to sin, so following those instincts will only lead to sin. Not to say I'm not glad that stuff like this is popping up in Christianity, but in my experience, it's not a practice that's held in too high of regard (which I personally find rather unfortunate)

Ya gotta let this go, mewtwo, I've been telling you this for a long time! All you can do is say what you are going to say. All you can do is put the offer on the table. In the end, they are going to believe who they want to believe. As much as I don't agree with some of the stuff Wan says/does, he also gets people through the door. You gotta trust that they are going to make it further in and work towards something genuine. As for siddhis- I believe they are possible, I believe one can attain them. Despite some of the experiences I've had, I can't absolutely say I've seen anyone/met anyone who has, and of all the people who have claimed they've had them.... well, I'll just say that I haven't met anyone willing to demonstrate them. Siddhis are, have been, and probably will continue to be, a big marketing tool for both legitimate and illegitimate methods. One of the things you've gotta do is be aware of the situation. Say what you gotta say. But when you sense that the conversation is becoming circular, or like you're just running on a treadmill, stop. Because by that point, it's clear that what you are saying isn't getting through to the person. So just tell them, "I've said all I could say, take it or leave it." Then walk away. As for new people.... well, if you keep going through the same process with each new person, no one is going to get anywhere. Point them in the direction. Give them some key points. Say, "for more info, look at my old posts.... at this website...." etc etc.

This is a very, very good article. I encourage everyone to read this and really think about it!

In that case, again, just try to find some way to strengthen your focus/willpower, that way when doing a mantra designed to accomplish a certain goal, you are thinking only of your goal. Also, Vaj gave some good advice. There are a lot of factors that go into making things happen. As tragic as a housefire is, there are many causes of them, ranging from the bad (you stuck a bunch of paper into a toaster and put it next to some curtains), to the good (you lit a bunch of candles to set a romantic mood for you and your partner). And don't forget to be aware of confirmation bias: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias When you have all of your attention directed at something, it's very easy to get caught up in the tunnel vision and be blind to all of the other possible options that could have gone into the situation.

Franz Bardon, in his book Initiation Into Hermetics goes into this a bit. Basically, what's important for magical work, and to that extent, some kind of mantra repetition work, is focus. You've got to develop a point where you are focused completely and totally on your goal, and nothing else (positive or negative). Because if you've got extra thoughts floating around in your mind as you do a mantra, it could weaken the effects you are trying to produce, or even put effects you don't want in there (good or bad). So from this point of view, the prerequisite to mantra/magic work is focus. Before you do some kind of mantra/magic work, do something that helps clear your body and mind of extra influences (externally coming from others, and internally coming from yourself). If you don't feel like you have a focused mind yet, stop doing this stuff entirely until you feel like you can.

Here's the funny thing about dreams- What you THINK you know about dreams influences what those dreams become. So if you think something specific is going to happen in those dreams, it will. Because your mind can easily create that. To a certain extent, this is true in life. My main purpose, and I think one of the main purposes of true spiritual cultivation, is getting away from what you think will happen, and getting away from the stuff your mind is manifesting, and looking at what is actually happening. Once you do THAT, dreams become real interesting, real fast. And when you do that with life, so does life!

Well ld4all.com is a great place to start learning lucid dreaming techniques. The forum has a lot of good tips, info, and suggestions for things you can try. The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep is a very good book that I picked up after it was brought up in a discussion here a little while ago. Very good book and has techniques to integrate with the chakras as well as some meditation exercises- it pretty much teaches you how to integrate lucid dreaming into whatever work you are presently doing.