Sloppy Zhang

So one thing he talks about in the lecture is using the Bagua symbol to heal or otherwise do things (magical things, maybe?) The only book of Daoist sorcery I've come across was really more about writing fu then praying to some deity to direct energy, rather than directing energy in a more direct sense, so I'm not too up on how Daoist sorcery/magic works. He mentions that to do stuff you need to use the post heaven sequence of the Bagua. Does anyone know why that is? I found the symbols that he taught to be rather interesting, has anyone done anything similar to that? And on the subject face reading: eh, still not really buying it completely, but again, I have yet to meet a genuine face reader, so the jury is still out on that one!

Something picked out from the beginning that caught my attention: The problem is not inherent in the practice. It's in the attitude of the people taking up the practice. They are taking it up because "oooh, it's yoga, look at me, I'm so spiritual" they don't know why the yoga rules say to do what, they are just following. They are more concerned with "oooh, yoga tells me to do this and that" than they are with "my body wants to do this other stuff." Yoga especially has an attitude of "your body is probably not going to like this, but that's because you've been living a decadent, dirty life for most of your existence, you must transcend that" and it's really easy to get carried away with that attitude. It's one of the reasons why I think when you get into more intense practices, you either need a really good teacher, or you need very good body awareness (something I think most Daoist practices cultivate, the ability to listen to yourself more so than listening to someone else). Because when stuff starts to go wrong, when you adopt a diet that is throwing you off balance, your body is going to give warning signs. If you do not recognize these warning signs, a teacher will. And if you don't have a teacher and start doing these practices for years, and then step up the game, doing 4+ hours of "improper for your body" practice, you are going to get messed up. It's sorta like celibacy in Catholicism- a lot of people are calling for it to be optional because it's obviously not working. But it's not celibacy that's not working, it's the people. I have a really good friend who is currently working to become a priest. I worry about him because, well, he comes from a very strict Catholic family. When we were in high school together, he played all kinds of video games under his parents' nose, because they thought video games were evil. I personally feel that he got pushed into it. Hopefully he turns out okay, but really it's the same kind of thing. But I will say that not all practices (even "extreme" ones) are bad. For example, in yoga and related arts there is the idea of not breathing, because thoughts are attached to breath, so if you really want to achieve a thoughtless state, then obviously you won't be breathing. I thought the idea was pretty ridiculous, and much preferred the Daoist breathing techniques that B.K. Frantzis taught which was, uh, keep breathing! Your body needs breath to live, right? But one day when I got into a really deep meditation, I realized I wasn't breathing for some seconds. It happens every once in a while. Maybe I'm breathing so deep I'm just super oxygenated and don't need to inhale/exhale as often? Maybe I really am getting to a thoughtless state? I dunno, but it made me realize that there might be something to the more "crazy" practices. However, it's my personal opinion, coming from a Daoist perspective, that those things arise naturally. I've stopped eating some food not because I've adopted some recommended Daoist diet, but after eating certain foods I'd feel like crap. And I'd think, "I've been eating this my whole life, and only just now become aware of these negative effects!" So I'd say the first and most important aspect is LISTENING TO YOUR BODY. That way you aren't just following some prescribed yogic practice, not adopting some crazy diet, and not doing practices that could be harmful while you are blind to their effects. Of course, if you have a master guru teaching you, the guru will probably tell you to do stuff that is healthy for you, because the guru can listen in directly to your body and figure what's good/bad. I think this person was very wise to sit in silence and let the person come to a conclusion on what to do themselves- really gets them in touch with THEMSELVES rather than some rules.

Hey, I've been wanting to get into Dao Yin/ Tao Yin for a little while now. What are some good resources you know of to learn? Preferably some really good books on the subject, but I'd like to hear anything you guys got.

Yup, that's exactly what I'm looking for Thanks for the resources.

Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, if you look at the framework for, say, shotokan, it's technically all there: kihon, kata, kumite. Kihon- learn the basics of how to punch and kick, how to move the body, how to move the opponent's body, such as understanding the center of gravity and throws, joint manipulations, where bones and ligaments want so go and where they don't want to go. Pretty much, how to hurt your enemies and how to heal yourself and friends. Kata- forms, including single and two (or more) drills. Basically, the kihon in action. He go here, you move there. He does this, you do that. Pretty much, how to put the anatomy of your kihon into practice. Kumite- free fighting, taking what you have and making it WORK against a live, resisting opponent who wants to not only stop you, but punch your own face in. And this is where things fall apart. You got people who know where joints don't want to go, you got people who know that if someone grabs you you can turn it into a lock or a throw, but you aren't quite sure how to do it while at the same time make it look like what you're doing is, well, whatever it is you're doing. I think there are a few main factors.... 1) People just don't know. Take karate, for example. A lot of Americans learned Karate in Okinawa when they were with the military. A few stayed for a long time, but think about most of them- they rotate into Japan, learn some kihon and kata, maybe, MAYBE some kumite, then rotate back to the states. "Join John's Karate- Secret Martial Arts of the Orient!" John's sensei took down 5 guys at once, John's sensei taught him kihon and John's sensei taught him kata, but he didn't stay long enough to learn how to actually use it, but it must look something like the kihon and kata.... So some guy walks in and throws some boxing hooks and John's all like, "nah that won't work, that's not what my sensei in Okinawa taught...." So a guy with fragmented knowledge teaches some other guy, who probably sticks around just long enough to open his own school, then he leaves and opens his own school, a fragment of a fragment. So by the third generation (if you can call it that, it's not even a full generation) encompassing what, 10 years at best? You already have a horribly watered down art... 2) Marketing- if it looks like boxing when you fight, more people are probably going to take up boxing 3) Safety- not a lot of people actually want to get hit or learn to fight, so the more they can learn without actually getting hurt, the better, so nobody really pressure tests their stuff 4) Unwillingness to learn- once John opens up his school, what motivation does he have to actually put what he knows to the test? He just throws on some red, white, and blue pants and shouts BOW TO YOUR SENSEI! Scares everybody with the muscles he got while in the military, and everyone just assumes he knows what's going on. A large part of ALL traditional arts was ACTUAL COMBAT. Between students of your school, and people outside the school. You know what it looks like when you practice in front of a mirror. You know what it looks like when running through the drill with your buddy. Now what does it look like when you want to use it? A lot of it comes from the teacher's experience, I think. "When I was a young man I fought a boxer, here's a trick I developed" or "I fought this Tae Kwon Do guy who could surprise attack you from far out of range, this is what you need to watch out for" combined with you and your buddies thinking, "what if someone did this? How would I react by applying the principles of this system?" In my experience, the most versatile systems are very fluid, and look very similar to lots of other systems. But that's just because they are working with the human body. There are a few styles out there which are pretty specialized- they have a certain method of striking, or a certain stance, and all of their techniques stem from that strike or stance- those have less fluidity in terms of what you can do (because when applying the principles of your system to an attack you haven't seen before, you don't have many options). That's a good one too. The trick not to hurting your fingers is that you aren't looking to grab/seize the opponent's leg, it really is like a hook- you have to put your hand a little bit under it, and then lift up. In my case, I just held my hand there and the kick practically falls right into it..... but it's not like I rely on the technique often, so take my advice with a salt mine

Yeah, feet are good to ground energy out. The way B.K. Frantzis teaches in his books, you should end your practice by dissolving the feet (basically relaxing and letting energy drop, exactly what you were doing) and even better, try to feel as far below your feet as you can, and try to dissolve that through. You want the energy to go down the body, like a waterfall of heavenly energy coming in and cleansing you. Of course, close by drawing energy to the dantien and letting it come to rest there. Like Trunk said, balance. You don't want to get up and/or start moving around so much immediately after practice, so it's best to center yourself during closing, then return to your "normal life"

Yes, but you should at least have ways to defend against all types of punches. If you only have one good punch defense, and your defense against every other punch is, "well obviously if they are punching like that they are untrained so you have nothing to fear" well then.... uh........ live close to a hospital Yeah, there is one thing that has stuck with me. One of our "kick defense" drills involved the person throwing a straight kick at us, and you step slightly off to the side into a cat stance, and with your outside hand (the arm that is closest to the leg) you make a little hook (palm up, thumb faces the back, your pinky is towards them) and you "hook" their leg. Honestly it felt like one of the more ridiculous techniques we learned, but was "kung fu"-y enough to make people go "oooh" and "aaaa" Well one day I was having a sparring match with my tae kwon do friend, and he was pushing me back and he threw a front kick to push me back harder, and I just sank into a cat stance, his foot sailed through open air and I hooked it. Then we both froze because neither of us believed that was going to work and we laughed It's really hard to battle your instinct to get away from danger, to dodge but remain close enough to your opponent to catch their attack- unless it's drilled into you somehow, then you do it without even realizing it So gotta admit, McDojos get some props when they get 1 out of 10,000 moves right.

This. But before we can decide what is true through experience, we have to have SOME experience. And to do that, we have to have some kind of method to test. That will never happen as long as people are like, "that's not what you should be doing", "you are doing and wrong and will never get it" "I won't tell you because you just wouldn't understand even if I told you" etc etc etc.

Came across this song by chance at a time when I really needed it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY96-ueYHec I think it saved me.

I finally got around to watching the series. If you have a netflix account, you can watch all of it through their streaming feature- they have the entire series. All in all, excellent show! Nice insights, nice story, nice fights, nice character development. I loved the series! Don't plan on watching the film.... why bother? The series itself is done and is, in my humble opinion, perfect as it is. There's no need to watch a film version. Really wish there were more available series like this when I was a kid. Various media depictions (mostly manga) really helped me get interested in certain paths of spirituality, or at least do some research and give them a look, even if I didn't go down them. Hopefully a lot of people (younger people) could watch this series and come away a little bit more inspired. I recommend everyone who hasn't seen it to see it, and if you have kids, see if they're interested in watching it too

Yeah, my first experience of that was at a karate school, we were doing two man drills where you punch while stepping into a forward stance with the same leg as the punch. I was talking to the guy next to me when I realized it was my turn, so I stepped forward and punched.... but I stepped with my left and punched with my right. My partner was like "sensei, what do I do?" And my sensei shook his head and said, "how about we try throwing CORRECT punches? Hm?" I was still pretty young back then, but I was smart enough to know that if my gut reaction was to throw an "improper punch" even after a bit of training, I knew someone with KNOW training wasn't going to throw a proper punch. Oooooh the dojos and dojos.

I've seen worse in real life. At least he didn't pull out the line, "you're not punching correctly. For my technique to work, you need to punch me, but correctly" ..........

So does this mean the thread is finished? Sources and everything, great job vortex.

There is a lot of assumptions going on in this thread. It's not always the case that people say things because they want others to think that they are right... Sometimes people say stuff because they know they are wrong and hoping someone comes in and corrects them. They, for whatever reason, do not admit they do not know. Maybe because they don't know that they don't know. Maybe because they are afraid to admit they don't know. Maybe because they are too prideful to admit they don't know. The reasons could be many or few, but the fact is: they want to learn, and they want someone to instruct them. But if the only people capable of instruction just look at the surface and say, "your cup is full, there's no way I can teach you"..... well, that's a loss Plus there are more people that can be taught than the ones posting on this board- who knows how many people read these threads that you don't know about. I like to think of those people when posting too.

It seemed to me that gold put a lot of thought into his original post into asking some serious questions. At first the discussion started out pretty good, but then..... I hate to become a hypocrite and start pointing fingers, but you, Tao99, were the first to point out that the "Tao" should not be passed on to people who are hoarders of knowledge, pontificates, and all other sorts of various things. Rather than respectfully answering the questions and helping someone to "turn the lights on", you explained all the reasons not only for why someone doesn't know what the truth is, but you then explained all the reasons for why you WOULDN'T help them out. All mixed in with some personal insults, something that can be perceived as a threat, as well as various other knee-jerk reactions. That's not very constructive, in my humble opinion. If you don't intend on helping, your lack of posts in a thread is enough. The fact that you post so much about how you aren't going to help.... well, I can't help what conclusions a variety of readers are going to make! And on THAT note, my time as a hypocrite is drawing to a close! I don't think I need to point out anything for the sake of the readers of this thread- they will draw their own conclusions. At first I wanted to abstain from not supporting the conversations in this thread myself, but I just thought I should give a friendly wave towards you and let you know that not everyone is appreciating the way that certain elements in this conversation have unfolded. But perhaps that's just the nature of this thread Aaaaaaaand with that, I will also abstain from conversation unless I have something meaningful to post!

I for one DO think it's a sincere question. A lot of people are acting like gold has some ulterior motive, or is pontificating, or doesn't know what's what. I think it is genuine. However, if he DID have an ulterior motive, perhaps to stir up trouble, to hit people where they are vulnerable, to expose insecurities and fears that bring out peoples' irrational sides- then he succeeded in catching a whole lot of people. But I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying that it was sincere.

I think you should go ahead and make videos. Put them on youtube. I'll subscribe. I bet a lot of people on here would subscribe just to support getting the message out. They don't necessarily have to agree with the message, heck, I might not support what your message says, but I do support people who are willing to go out there and try and genuinely help people. Tao99 is glad that he didn't have the internet when he started, but personally I think that the internet lets messages reach to people who normally wouldn't have that message reached to them. If it weren't for the internet a whole lot of people wouldn't know that "Mike's Karate-Do" is a McDojo that has no real lineage of actual karate, doesn't teach you how to fight, and is a waste of time and money- they would spend years learning it the hard way, maybe at the risk of their own personal injury. But now they get to find out about so many other different things in the world. Yes, there is more interference. But that's only natural. Stronger message, stronger interference. If they were in some small town in the middle of nowhere they might have less interference, sure, but there's no guarantee that they'd even receive a message in their lifetime. So, yeah, the internet cuts both ways (strongly, both ways). But I'd say it's a good thing.

But everyone has flaws. If you are always waiting for the perfect person to pass it on to and always finding flaws in someone and reasons why not to teach them.... then aren't you...... uh..... hoarding..... knowledge........ maaaaaaaayyyyyybbbbeeeeee???? *braces for impact*

Plenty of people are able and willing to believe. In fact, plenty of people out there WANT to believe. I've got plenty of friends who are science majors at the university level, people who are studying to become doctors, very skeptical, mind oriented people. I talk to them about energy stuff, psychic phenomena, and their eyes light up and they talk about all the possibilities. The problem is no one is supplying! There is a HUGE demand for this stuff. People are starting to realize that living in your head SUCKS and gets you NOWHERE. It leaves you disconnected from your family, from yourself, and from life in general. The only suppliers out there are either hiding behind the curtain of "oh well this is just so uber that you just wouldn't believe me even if I showed you" or "my skillz are 2 dedlee" or they are showing their skills on people who are honestly..... well, let's just say that they already seem to be drinking the cool-aid If you can fly, FLY, fly in front of people, fly to work, fly everywhere. Let people see that you can fly, and they WILL believe. (fly can be taken as a metaphor for something else that's amazing or an actual skill)

Maybe you can help a fellow find the light switch? Gold's thread was posed as a question- not a declaration. A question that stemmed from his understanding and trying to reconcile it with stuff that other people shared. He also made it pretty clear that he wanted other people to respond so we could all get a bit of understanding for what we believe and why- he presented his understanding, and invited others to share theirs. As someone who doesn't get all the finer points of Daoism, I am also curious about what others have to say- but instead the people responding are doing so with finger pointing and vague declarations about destiny and people seeing what they want to see and gogo dancers. Everyone reading this thread is left to shrug and not know what's going on. But maybe that's our destiny! Maybe gold has some ulterior motive in making this post. I'm going to give gold the benefit of the doubt. And maybe he did have an ulterior motive. If so, a whole bunch of people just walked into it.

I think it's funny how people go around proclaiming what tao is, others who go around proclaiming that they are wrong (which implies that they know what the right tao is), occasionally revealing it, and occasionally just saying, "well if you were really in the know then you'd just know that I'm right." When really all we can speak for is our own experience. Why can't we just trust in the validity of another person's experience? Maybe they are lying, and they are just an internet daoist (no real practice)- in which case, why don't we humor them, they already have enough issues most likely, and there's no need to drag them out into the street and beat them over it. If you think/know that someone is full of hot air, why do you feel the need to call them out publicly on it? Why not help them understand in a constructive manner rather than trying to put them down? Look to your own self before looking to others, or something like that. Set your own house in order or some such saying. Then again, maybe they are telling the truth, and they really have had experiences that make them say something, in which case we should probably be listening. Neither of those options involve finger pointing. Which, by the way, calls to mind that we should NOT be looking at the finger

Yeah, a forum solely about technique and practical discussion would be nice. A lot of people come in saying, "I'm having trouble doing this?" or "how can I do that?" And then out of 20 responses, 10 of them will be, "that's not what you should be doing", 5 of them will be "doing that is stupid", 4 of them will be, "you're doing it wrong and you'll never get it" and 1 of them will be actually helpful.* *These are approximations based on my observations Sticking to technique and experiences of technique would be nice, where you can share without worrying that a philosophical wormhole will collapse upon itself as you realize that you don't actually exist But I still love this forum!

Trust me, I'm even lower than that No, really, I am

I find all of your posts to be very interesting, and the insights you give on the matter shine light from a completely different angle, providing a more whole picture. I don't know why so many people have taken your posts so negatively in the past. And, frankly, I'm surprised this discussion hasn't come up sooner (maybe it has and I just haven't been paying enough attention!) because frankly, I had the same questions as you after I read the three that you are referencing.