daoseeker

Hi YM, do you have the second book on cultivation from WLP as PDF? His autobiography is translated already in western languages and quite widespread (even though Mr. Cleary's translation is a mess....). If so, I will send you by mail my mail adress. Many thanks in advance!

check out http://hi.baidu.com/fu_hui/album/item/9f21...bdb0d078601b073 if you wanna see some pictures and other random related stuff of Wang Liping

Confucianism lays the ethical and moral foundation of personal, family and societies' life. It emphasizes the wordly life and order with no approach towards the afterlife. Buddhism is seen in China as the way of spiritual salvation and liberation of the earthly life in suffering. It emphasizes the efforts towards the afterlife. Daoism is combining both, living a harmonious earthly life in accordance with nature and also pushing forward towards an afterlife, however it might be according to the individual view. A more humorous picture to get on it is the famous painting of the three "Vinegar Tasters", Buddha, Confucius and Laozi. Confucius makes a sour face, Buddha a bitter one, and only Laozi is smiling. That is pretty much displaying the "Three teachings" of China and how it is seen by the Chinese people. Confucian thinking is based on the opinion that the society is in disorder if you don't push it into an order by rules to obey. Buddhism has the foundational theory that life is suffering. Daoism only takes it as it is and follows the way of nature.

great post to dive into... and maybe get lost I would like to hear from our Chinese friends what they have to say about the etymology of "DAO" generally, since that is the root of what we are discussing here. I studied Chinese, also Classical Chinese on an academic level. I once translated 16th chapter of Daodejing with the motivation to get it's spiritual essence transferred into German. Believe me, it took more than 3 months to really grasp it's meaning and etymology, by getting rid of sterotypes and pre-conditioned words and associations in my mind. Finally, when I check Amazon to see the 10.867,56 translations of Daodejing by all kinds of "give-it-a-try" western guys.... uuahh! I have a calligraphy of "Daofa ziran" from a monk of Baxiangong in Xi'an in my living room - wonderful, powerful calligraphy, and I have found the meaning deep in my heart over years of practice and a bit by my academic education. But honestly, I can still not express it in German or English. (P.S.: it's funny to see western people diving into the etymology of a translated word, such as "Way" instead of "Dao" and then further interpretating "Way" to explain daoist principles.... hahaha ... that's totally off, sorry)

I know of prescriptions for the ordained - and even in daoist monasteries it's quite detailed for reasons of spiritual hygiene and moment-to-moment awareness in any type of activity. And this is also valuable for practicing alone, e.g. wearing clean clothes, neutral colors like black or dark blue or grey, having a tidy and clean meditation environment with elements you pay respect to etc. but for energetic health you could as well cover and keep warm yourself with a blue blanket.... I think that's not really the reason. Another thing to say: A Daoist robe or jacket is nothing else than common Chinese cloth of old times. The daoist of older times was identified by his hairstyle, hat, stockings and some other equipment. There is not much difference to the cloth of common people....

hahaha - Oh, I like that discussion so much.... The time I seriously practiced Zen, I got a Chinese Ch'an buddhist robe as a gift from the abbot of Xingshansi in Xi'an. I actually only had it on twice along with a non-blessed tourist Mala at Carneval since everybody knew I am the China guy... Out of respect for those who "left their home" I have never been wearing it during buddhist retreats or so. But I also got a daoist common blue jacket from my daoist monk brother at Xi'an's Baxiangong. He said as a "sujia dizi" (disciple who is staying home/does not leave the family) I should wear it for practice. And that's how I use it to remind myself of discipline, lineage, masters - also identifying myself and my practice to gain more seriousness. What do you think? I don't like disrespect to those who leave their homes, I don't like those who pretend... but I would not see an offense by wearing robes in private to identify with serious practice and link oneself to the tradition and lineage

Hi Sirius, I have plenty of highest grade Longjing (dragonwell) and Wuyi green tea. Where are you? I am right now at the airport on my way to Shanghai and Longhushan later on. Anything particular you want that I could bring along....

I just checked the website.. frankly speaking another guy coming up with a big "Secret" kind of stuff. In the introduction and the interview he is in fact talking about Bodhidharma and the Shaolin monastery, and that nobody has ever been authorised in the west (except him of course) to teach that style of that secret lineage, which was taught until cultural revolution etc. etc. etc. to be honest, I don't know whether this guy is legitimated to teach anything, or wether such a thing called Hsin Tao (in Pinyin transcription Xindao - Way of the heart, or Dao of the mind) as a lineage or orthodox practice ever existed. BUT: The way to promote it picking "Secrets" and lineages and all that stuff, and then in fact coming up with that Shaolin story, which hundreds of thousands of Zen or other practioners can easily identify as the Bodhidharma story... that's easy ignorant, impertinent or just silly..... (Sorry for all the harsh words, but evolution in that field of life leads to fantastic things like the taobums, but there are still some prehistoric artefacts like this guy out there...)

Thanks for the advice, you are wright indeed! But I buy my tea IN China, as well as all TCM herbs directly from the farmers on a herb market in Shangai (at the edge of famous Yu Garden). There you can get e.g. the natural, raw Jiaogulan to make tea (which is sold in the west called "Immortal's herb" or similiar) for only a few bucks PER POUND..... Anybody from Germany wants me to bring along something?

apart from Diabetes (you should really see a doctor to get it checked) it might be a spleen-stomach defiency. That disgnosis leads to constant thirst. But the more you drink the more dampness you cause in that spleen system which leads to more thirst. The same defiency leads to a lack of utilisation of food, which along with heavy training leads to even more hunger.... Check out a TCM practioner. If the case, cure with following dietary advice: 1. no chilled drinks, especially not before eating or after exercises 2. no raw, greasy or chilled food 3. not too much sugar of any type (but first check the Diabetes) 4. have some hot water with some slices of fresh ginger first every morning and in the evening Apart from that there are of course much more TCM prescriptions, but mostly it can be much better with the above advices.

I haven't done any kind of muscle building ab exercises for a century but still have a six-pack. I have been doing some yoga and Qigong warm-ups every morning since the past 15 years, including the 2nd and 5th of the "5 Tibetans". That'll work out your abdomen and build muscles, but at the same time, by deep abdominal breathing in the relaxation phase, keeps your diaphragm soft and prevents tension in this area. In my opinion, all exercises are of no good for the Dantian and Qi development, if it leads to tension of any kind in that region in particular. Breath deeply!

Froggie, frankly speaking that "Wu-Yi" tea is nothing else than plain Chinese green tea from the Wuyi mountains. By accident I just recently got big amounts as a present from a Chinese client, it's still in my trunk... I prefer to buy my green tea directly from the farmers in China to get the highest quality of green tea. Green tea is in fact aiding digestion, but it also cools out the spleen-stomach system, if drunk heavily, or if your stomach is in a weak condition generally. It can cause some problems and keeps your mind awake for ages (not the body), if you drink it constantly during the day. You better try Jiaogulan tea for a daily drink, having the effects of Ginseng, but not cooling out the stomach or having too much tannins... Or just stick to the most classical Chinese dietary advice and the best-ever drink...: hot water!

finding the time is also my biggest issue for the Zhanzhuang practice.... just one more suggestion: read the book from B.K. Frantzis "Opening the Energy Gates of your body". His practice of "Dissolving" while doing Zhanzhuang is a fantastic way to relax, open up blockades and find a deep relaxation in the wright posture. It will increase your energy quite amazingly and - well - change your life! As somebody said before: Zhanzhuang is changing lifetime habits to tuning in into nature and natural body and energy structures. Keep standing

just some basic replies on that topic and discussion: 1. it is true that some results of energy work unfold naturally without that particular practices, e.g. when you just practice Zazen or Zuowang (sitting and forgetting) for a long time. I experienced that myself a big portion. Your Dantian can fill up naturally over time when you do quiet sitting the right way, and Qi is just "overflowing" into the channels or even into the microcosmic orbit (that happened to me) 2. I consider that natural "Qi-gathering" even the secret of many initial steps of Daoist inner alchemy, e.g. when the classics talk about the utmost emptiness when a "Yang spark" is occuring and Qi starts to rise... (as far as my understanding and practice has reached). I believe and have been taught in China that many initial practices of Neidan are just covering quiet meditation practices in the beginning. 3. The Daoist way, particularly the Quanzhen/Longmen approach is dual cultivation named Xing and Ming - I would translate as "Inner nature" and "Life". Most of present Daoist monks interprete this as dual cultivation of energy work/mind cultivation OR moving practice/sitting practice. Or you could simply say one part is practising arts like Taichi or Qigong as body/energy work (and daily labour...), another part is meditation as a mind cultivation e.g. Zuowang or Zazen-like ways. And that's not theory! That's how they live and structure their daily life in general. If you say "+", there will be a "-" also.... the truth is in between, the truth is non-differentiating!

I practiced Zhanzhuang from the Yiquan tradition and never really knew how to improve... Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt book helped a lot for working on the outer and inner structure. But the real breakthrough came from a weekend course with Bruce about Neigong and following up with his book. I could do standing and dissolving for 15 min after a month of training and would practice Bagua circle walking afterwards for 30 min. The double effect of Zhanzhuang and afterwards practicing basic training of Bagua or Taichi is breathtaking! I consider the dissolving practice in general the most useful tool for every basic training of Neigong or martial arts - also as a precondition of non-moving energy practice. My Bagua circle walking would squeeze and spiral Qi through all parts of my body after the standing and dissolving training - much more powerful than before. I would even sweat at my toes and smell like a bump after a while...... it's a treasure indeed!

During many years of regular Zazen practice I saw several people mentally crashing down in a bust of tears or similiar - which could be a good sign from a certain Zen point of view.... But many - including me - also get severe headaches over years of practicing a meditation method like Zazen. It's just about all the accumulated energy... When you don't know how to keep it in your dantian or how to lead it to there - it can cause many serious problems. What helped was a line from the autobiograhpy of Great Zen master Hakuin who had the same problem. A Daoist (!) helped him by giving the advice to visualize a chunk of butter on his head's top melting down his face and body..... It really helped! (It's quite similiar to the Water method of Bruce Kumar Frantzis of "melting" blockages!) But in other words: If you do Healing Dao or similiar training of Microcosmic Orbit, a Zen practioner would not have such problems, or at least he would feel what is wrong I practiced the small heavenly circle by a method from a German physician, who studied Qigong in the 70s already. Her method was to start at the tongue and visualize Qi running down to Dantian first and collect and finish at Dantian. That works perfectly for all kind of raised Qi from certain meditation methods not involving energy work. Let it flow!

my everyday work is linked to China and I have many Chinese friends and collegues, business partners etc. In my opinion it's quite simple: The average of the Chinese people have been brain-washed by all kinds of revolutionary movements, philosophies and leaders for quite a long time. They just don't know about their spiritual traditions pretty well and therefore don't appreciate it. Daoist monks on holy mountains were made fun of, Chinese tourists going there for certain sunrise pictures only and stuff like that happening there all the time. Even though of course their is a promising new interest arising among young people in China. I once wondered why every (I mean EVERY) monk on Huashan for example was inviting me for some talkings, a cup of tea or even dinner at their place... just because they could tell by the way I was greeting the Daoist way or paying respect in the temples that I was a real follower of Daoism. The majority of Chinese tourists just (if in general) do some folk-religious bows or pray for money and male children... Another story from a Chan Buddhist monastery in Xi'an: My friend and I had shaved heads that time and had both practiced Zazen for quite some years that time. We also paid respect in the main Maitreya hall and were invited to sit down and have a chat with the monk doing service in the hall. He turned out to be the abott later on... We both spoke Chinese already that time and had a very inspiring nice exchange about Chan-Practice. Only then Chinese young people would join in curiously and expressing their interest in ... becoming a monk or not! They didn't talk about practice or so.... So, I figure lots of Chinese practicing Buddhists or Daoists see a westerner in the light of a seriously interested practioner - if so - and would rather prefer to share something with them instead of answering nonsense questions of Chinese tourists.

honorable Ms Li Chengyu from Wudangshan I saw on a picture from a Daoist young monk who met her, and in a TV documentary. She was well over 100 years old and sitting there in full lotus position - but she looked like over a 100 ..... When I visited Huashan once with my wife and my brother (that time we were all in our middle 20s), a grey-haired and -bearded old Daoist monk was getting ahead of us, running up the mountain across the zig-zag stone steps like flying.... that day my brother - a PhD Biochemist and a real critical scientist - would admit that in the future he would belive all my stories about the Daoists I met, longevity and stuff.... My collegue in Beijing had done 15 years of zhanzhuang training in the Yiquan boxing tradition. That time I was 28 and he looked like a few years older. Later on I found out he was 43 that time already. Perfect black hair, perfect body shape, skin like a child. But he also followed a daily dietary regimen of avoiding all grains. That's an old traditionally Daoist practice from the Shangqing/Lingbao sects. I contribute his looks to that combination of diet and practice.

Practice sitting/lying meditation (or whatever other method you like, even walking is good as long as you are able to detach from the external surroundings and bring about peace to the mind) with direct neigong work (Bagua, Xingyi) and you are set. Good luck! excellent advice! E.g. Zen-Training combined with Internal Martial Arts Neigong or basic routines (jibengong) - and you are right on the way of most orthodox and traditionally trained Daoist monks. That's exactly what they do in fact! Maybe we should just take what's available and not looking for ever more romantic and complicated places or practices.... like a western christian hermit once said: look for God - don't look for a place where you believe God lives...

with no offense to any of the respected Dao seekers here, I want to share some facts about the truth of "true" Daoism, true teachers and lineages and issues related to it. so many people claim to have found a true teacher, or that their teacher is the true inheritor of this or that system - or even of the Daoism in general.... Just pointing out some facts here, trying to not sound too sophisticated, because that's not what I regard neccesasary... 1. "Daoism" is no kind of religion in the sense of having a revelation, founder, bible, dogma or faith as a preposition to be a Daoist. It's more an organically grown way of life cultivation with factes of an organized religion, on the basis of a fundamental philosophy. Nobody can ever be the inheritor of the "true" Daoism. 2. There are hundreds of lineages (menpai), traditions, affiliations, lay or monastic groups, study groups, secret societies and so on, from history up to nowadays generations. 3. Whoever claims to have found the true XXXX is already away from truth. If a master or teacher can teach the truth, then he might be a true teacher... 4. A lineage is just a lineage, a tradition, a chain of ongoing transmissions within a certain system of teachings. There is no wrong or right lineage, no true or false lineage - if in any case a lineage is really existing and not just a bluff or an empty name. 5. Nowadays the "orthodox" Daoism is organized in the shape of a religion mainly under the Quanzhen or Zhengyi sect. Quanzhen being monastic, they are monks and leave their homes (chujia). Zhengyi being a lay movement, where you become a priest (daoshi) and perform rituals for the people, apply some kind of "magic" (exorzism, talismans, sorcery etc.). So far for the surface... BUT 6. The Quanzhen Dao also has had lay movements, study groups and secret societies from the beginning of this lineage. The "Seven Perfected" (Qizhen) disciples of the founder Wang Zhe set up own lineages, monasteries and lay groups all alike. From them we have several kinds of sub-sects of Quanzhen ("Complete Truth" sect), e.g. Longmenpai (Dragon Gate sect), Jinshanpai (Gold Mountain sect) etc. All kinds of lay study groups and lineages are still existing or founded anew elsewhere. So, there is a big tradition of these lay disciples and students of Neidan within the society. That has always been the case. And Wang Liping is nothing else than a lineage holder and inheritor of the Longmenpai, without being a monastic Quanzhen Longmenpai monk. He is just trained in a tradition which has a true lineage connection, but no affiliation with any monastic lineage. He is a true inheritor of Lungmenpai, but not THE inheritor. for that reason he is not known among the monastic Daoists in the big Daoist centres, nor has he any connection to the Chinese Daoist Association, which is mainly controlling the organized institution like the monasteries and registered monks. 7. The Chinese people always tend to systematize things or put it in a simple, easily memorizable way. Therefore many concepts of Daoist schools or sects or lineages also have such kind of simplifications, e.g. Northern and Southern School, Inner and Outer school, this or that mountain school, Fire or Water tradition... To give a useful brainteaser on that matter: a lay daoist disciple, originally initiated in the Zhengyi sect of Daoism, is studying Neidan with a Longmen Master on Wudangshan ... ... ... what is he? Zhengyidao, Longmenpai, Wudangpai, Daoist priest or Monk or what??? (he is just a disciple looking for the truth and a good master at a good place to practice....) What Michael Winn does or Mantak Chia or Internal Martial Arts teachers, mostly comes from original orthodox sources, maybe within a lineage or without, maybe from one single master in a certain tradition, but most likely in a mix of different master's traditions, lineages or training systems... all of this has it's legitimation. ONLY one should never claim to have the true thing or claim to come from an orthodox lineage when that connection is only made up for promotion or justification. E.g. Healing Tao, to me it's a new lineage, because it has connections to true lineages, it is a mix of different approaches and practises in one new system. Meanwhile I would call it the "Healing Tao lineage". Bruce Kumar Frantzis (who I highly respect and admire for his lifelong dedication to internal martial arts and his life with Liu Hongjie in Beijing) once told me in a weekend Neigong course that the Longmenpai monks would not be the inheritors of true Daoism and that they follow the "Fire" tradition of practice.... (Sorry Bruce, ... but that's rubbish.) I wouldn't dare to discuss it with him in front of other students and let him loose face. But even in literature or scholarly works one can not find anything like "Fire" as opposed to "water" traditions. Maybe it's just something his master told him to point out a different approach or technique. Bruce is also claiming everywhere that his master Liu (undoubtly an official inheritor of Bagua, Xingyi and Wu style Taijiquan) was head of a Daoist sect, without naming this sect or giving anymore details. What is it worth then? Many teachers I believe are falling into the trap of giving legitimations in a wrong way, aware or unaware, making up a story which leads students to say "he was the disciple of the last true XXXX" or "he got transmission from the head of XXXX". You have a lineage - name it! Everybody can follow up or check it if he wants You made up your own system - name it! Everybody can check and test it You mix it all up - why not if it works and you don't claim to be orthodox in a way Enough for now. Hope some fellows join in or gain some insights or have some points to discuss! wide and open like the sky

but the practice is much more important in his opinion, particularly in the beginning. pretty interesting. I guess a good master/guide is giving the right advice at the right time. That's all. Nor neither is the "right" thing for everybody. In Zen Practice I also realized that there is a time for a book - one day it's indeed enlightening, the other day it's another pound of rubbish for your mind - but there is always the time for practice. I deeply trust the word "When the student is ready, the master will come" - and I also take that for the truth when it comes to books "about" the truth or practice. In Zen you just practice until you are so rooted in your dantian, and your moment-to-moment awareness is so fluent... by a certain "click" suddenly it all opens up and you are getting a transparent part of that flowing universe - be it by the "click" of a book's text line, the sound of the toilet flush or whatever.....

Hi everybody, I registered recently to become part of that fascinating bunch of people here. I would like to share a bit of my own experiences as from a Daoseekers life and be grateful to all the real worthy contributions of the members here. Even though I found quite some awful offenses by words.... I myself studied Sinology and Religions, being fluent in Chinese, wrote my thesis about the Daoist religious Geography at Laoshan in Shandong. My Chinese Dao friends call me a "sujia Dizi", which means "homestay disciple" in contrast to the "chujia", which "leave homes" - the monks of Daoism. I traveled extensively all throughout China and most of the sacred places of Daoism. My daily work is directly linked to China, and I have the chance to be there 6 or seven times a year - even though mostly for stressing work in Shanghai. I try to not loose my way of practice and stay connected to the original lineage tradition (of Quanzhen Daoism) by going to quanzhen monasteries as often as I can to keep aspration high and motivation stable. Hope to share many insights and worthy informations with you all. Daofa Ziran The way of the Dao can be find in nature OR the method of Dao is being natural OR the practice of Dao means being of its own OR OR OR...

breathtaking approach! Let's get down on our feet and just practice. One can find his master for a day even in an Internet forum. Deep love and gratitude

ha ha ... I like that. If we live long enough Winnie-the-Pooh will be called a patriarch of Daoism also... (the story of Yinxi the Gatekeeper is also a quite impressive pack of traditional Chinese nonsense...) I figured it's neccessary to study scholar's books on that topic (e.g. "The Daoists of Beijing") to get a clear picture of the background, then you can judge what somebody says. Even Chinese Quanzhen monks might be astonished when they realize how foolish they are when it comes to history of orthodox Daoism... But it only helps to judge claims of authenticity.. doesn't help you practice the right way....!!! hahhh, thanks so much, Taomeow. That's fresh air for my understanding!! That totally makes sense! But do the monastic Longmenpai Daoist emphasize the fire aspect in their Neidan practice? I don't think so. Maybe I should try to get a comment from Michael Winn about it, since he is also practicing with Longmenpai monks on Huashan. warm gratitude