beancurdturtle

Well put.

I guess that I've successfully redirected sexual energy into applause. Should I be applauded for that? Or are you saying that there's no cosmic difference between a shower of semen and applause? Seems both can be offered as a sign of appreciation.

Me? I'm wondering... ...is it ok to applaud after a really great shared orgasm? I've been doing it for many years - might be hard to change the habit.

Well put.

I never even inferred that the steps to my cosmic Macarena were better, bigger, or next. I only discussed my experience. I fully understand my cosmic Macarena will seem jazzy to a few and silly to most. That's the way of these things. And I don't recommend jump-starting the harmony - the beat of the cosmic Macarena is tough enough to follow even when you start on the right foot. I have respect for whatever steps (silly, simple, or jazzy) are working, for whomever is doing their cosmic Macarena. The steps you are taking require a lot more focus and mental attention than mine at this time. Mine basically require diligence and attention to now. Some day there may be a flip-flop of the nature and requirements of our respective cosmic Macarenas. Who knows? You are missing the fact that I have the same amount of respect for your path as I do for mine - maybe even more respect for your path. I can explain why more if you wish. Now I'll give my ego a bit of free reign, and please understand that I dislike putting thoughts into other people's heads, so I apologize if I've interpreted your words incorrectly. Do you know why you are having trouble accepting and understanding my experience and process? I've noted that for some people it's been easy to grasp. Is it so difficult to accept that someone can follow the Way by walking an uncomplicated path? I've never questioned the validity of your path. Yet I feel that you are examining my discussion of the path I am on and looking for leverage points to make it less valid, less appropriate, less effective, or less zippy than your chosen path. I still haven't discerned your motivation for semantically pigeon-holing my thoughts and discussion into something disingenuous or trite. It's like oneupsmanship with a crispy sagely coating - a metaphorical culinary catastrophe. "You want harmony in your life; I want harmony in as many lives as mine will be able to touch." You make this statement as if there is a difference between the two; and in a context as if your benevolence is greater than mine (which it may be). I would say that harmony in the whole world would be the ideal, but I have no control over the world. I'll start where I can have the greatest influence - self, family, community, culture, world. Harmony, like a yawn, is contagious - those ready for it will follow the example when they see it. (Reminds me of TTC Chap 54) "Real people come like the spring, benefiting all beings" -- that's where I want to go. Where do you want to go? I'm approaching the same place - that objective is woven solidly into the Dao de Jing. Why would you assume I am aiming at a different objective just because our paths are different? "Real people come like the spring, benefiting all beings" -- wouldn't it be sweet to be there, huh? Peace,

Taomeow, We are talking about two different things. You're talking about taoist arts and sciences, which does require focus on the details. I'm talking about living in congruence with the morals and objectives that are the foundation of the Dao de Jing. Your current path requires concentration on the details. I've been there so I understand. My current path is about integrating fundamental morals and objectives into life regardless of whether your a pig farmer or a project manager. I'd "studied" taoism along with many other religions during a curiosity phase when I was about 20 years old. A few years later I had early onset rheumatoid arthritis in my middle twenties - bad news (and good news). I got tired of "managing" the pain with morphine in the western tradition. Then I got really tired of experiencing chronic pain. A friend introduced me to Ni Hua-Ching (http://www.yosan.edu/lineage-based-learning/index.cfm). So my real introduction to taoism was through Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). Master Ni recommended one of his sons for my treatment. I started with acupuncture 2 or 3 times a week, nasty tea 3 times a day, and qigong breathing. After about 6 weeks I could move comfortably enough to start taijiquan. After about 6 more weeks the "rheumatoid arthritis" was gone. I was impressed to say the least. From 1986 to 1989 or so I studied (with the help of several different masters) TCM, qigong, taijiquan, I Ching, Dao de Jing, Zhuangzi, many taoist philosophers, and all kinds of related things very earnestly. I imagined one day I might be a taoist master and doctor. I was sitting in the kitchen of a master one Sunday chatting. He was one of those laser vision Zhuge Liang kind of guys that practiced TCM, I Ching, Astrology and such. I asked this master what to do to prevent the rheumatoid arthritis from returning. I thought I would get a TCM based response or a recommendation for some kind of moving meditation. But it wasn't something so simple (darn!). He said I needed to learn to live in harmony with core taoist morals and objectives. Incongruity and dis-harmony are what caused the "friction" that created the imbalance and subsequently the manifestation of pain in my body. Near to the same time I was out in the desert at a retreat with another master. He was observing with some amusement my enormous enthusiasm and focus on learning and practicing taoist arts and sciences. We were sitting side-by-side BSing about enlightenment, health, and etc. He stopped talking for a minute. Then turned and looked me square in the face and said. "You know, Daniel. Sometimes we all just need to sit down with a beer, a cigar, and the National Enquirer." Ok, he was speaking somewhat metaphorically, but the message was clear. From these two incidents I started understanding, that the real objective is to live with integrity and harmony and create a place of contentment in your life, whatever your life may be. Whether you are a sage, a master, a pig farmer, a project manager - or maybe all four - the achievement of harmony and contentment is the important thing. The path is only details. I'm not the only one that does it this like this - it's just not as sexy as temples, masters, miracle cures, levitation and such. I guess you haven't run across someone like me before so I present a conundrum to your sensibilities about what is required for enlightenment. I can't cure your ills, I don't give profound lectures, I don't taijiquan or qigong any more. I just do my best to live in harmony with core taoist morals and objectives. I'm very content, amazingly healthy for a dude of nearly 50, and very thankful for my blessed life. There is no defined taoist path - when you define a path, you distance yourself from the Way. Schools, sects, shapes and forms are not the Way, they are guides - and I know from experience how helpful they are in pointing us in the right direction. You know, Taomeow. Maybe it's time that you sat down with a beer, a cigar, and the National Enquirer. Peace, -- Daniel

And so we orbit in eccentric circles abound a basic concept again. "Ancient Taoism" "Phlosophical Taoism" "Taoist Philosophy" "Taoist Shortcake" Words are supposed to clarify things, right? Haha! I use "Philosophical Taoism" because it is a familiar phrase to people I have studied and discussed with in the past. "Ancient Taoism" has also been used to mean the same thing. Basically what I am trying to say is, I follow a path that is aimed at actualizing in my life the basic moral base that underlies the words of the Dao de Jing. Stuff like acceptance, tolerance, respect, benevolence, etc. There are other people who follow this same path. But we seem to be rare compared to the other 'isms. Because the Dao de Jing is a collection of anecdotes, suggestions, poems and such - there is a tendancy for many to miss the forest for the trees. Here, as in so many things, the detail can be a distraction. For me and the folks who "do the Dao" (I'm afraid to say "ancient" or "philosophical" - haha) like me, walking in contentment and in harmony in the forest holds more value than trying to catalog the trees. Zhuangzi is what I might call the Dao de Jing's "Daily Show." Once you have a good understanding of what's going on in the Dao de Jing, the humor and absurdity of Zhuangzi helps open up a better understanding. I mean no disrespect to the other paths, Taoist or what have you. Like I said in another post - I've read the I-Ching, The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine, and several other Taoist texts. That was 20 or so years ago - so the details are murky, though the concepts hang around in my mind. Suffice it to say, the roller skates are mostly irrelevant if the path traveled is the same. And if the wheels are moving in the right direction, any skates are cool. Oh! since I've come to this point, let me share something really cool. http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/Menu/Reader.html I use it to flip from one translation to another of the same chapter in the Dao de Jing. Many sources, ignore the abstration, look for the substance. Peace,

Well said!

Every path will have it's pitfalls. Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, shortbread cookies, even happy pancakes. I also think that some rare people are self cultivating (though certainly not me). Otherwise, where would the original stuff that us silly folks use to fuel cultivation spring from? Did that make any sense? It is easier to be lazy, even easier to make excuses. Dilligence requires focus (or cultivation) for a while at least. Eventually (sometimes over years) it becomes habit. Then you feel out of your skin when you're not doing it "right." And that's pretty darn cool. Peace,

I read that, I think it was in 1987. It was the same year in which I read The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine. Great stuff to gain a different perspective on the engines running our physical universe. The concepts hang with me - but unfortunately I've forgotten a great deal of the minutia over 20 years. Personally I've graduated to "comic intelligence." Or so I delude myself. Ok, I'm just being silly. No disrespect intended. Just one of my odd habits. Carry on!

Aiyah! Dude! Your words feel a bit like original taoist thought with a funky vocabulary. I like it. It's quite entertaining and refreshing. More importantly; how can you type so fast with those long sleeves? I'd need an ego for it to be my time. Peace,

I jest. you goad not. I understand.

Or something enabled by the process when you let go of enabling it yourself? like karma?

Wonderful explanation. Thanks for your time.

Oh Papa! Why do you goad me thus?

Well, that probably makes you a laoist. It's not a rating system, you know, where one is "higher" or "lower" than the other, "better" or "worse," - Uh huh. I'm in 100% agreement. Whatever path that works is the appropriate path. and a "taoist" ain't no rank (though it used to come with a symbolic exterior to distinguish a taoist from a non-taoist -- "blue robe with scarlet clouds" in the 11th century, e.g., worn only by taoists). Yet it is a traditional thingie, taoism is, and in anything traditional, rules have long been established as to what to call or not to call a practitioner or a non-practitioner of the tradition. - Dao de Jing Chapter 38 speaks to this - about people's fascination with ritual and tradition rather than substance and harmony. In China, if you said you were a "taoist," they would ask you, "which sect have you been accepted into?" It wouldn't matter if you said "philosophical taoism" or "ancient taoism" -- they still wouldn't understand what you mean. If you said, "Celestial Teachers" or "Northern School of Complete Reality" or "Mao-shan magical," then they would get it. - They would get it within their universe of understanding. "Taoism" in China, and elsewhere for that matter, has been so defined by it's practices, rituals, temples, and etc. that the original values and objectives have been left behind by most. This would describe what you do or don't do adequately enough. But "ancient taoism" or "philosophical taoism" does not describe a process, you know... - I know. and Chinese is a process-oriented language, - Largely from the influence of Gongfuzi and the Legalists - who were fascinated with rules. According to some accounts, Laozi thought Gongfuzi was rather silly to be so focused on the trees (abstractions) as to miss the forest (substance). where if you say what you "are" without a set of "do" attached to it, you are simply impossible to understand. - It is "受理古老道教" - the do is "accepts ancient taoism." The Chinese I know understand it - though most think it's quaint. So... you "do" Laozi? Do you mind elaborating on what it is exactly that you do -- how do you go about living Tao Te Ching? It is a manual for the ruler, you know, a to-do and don't list for the king, the emperor, the general, the overlord, the leader, the father. - Not solely a manual for a leader. It's about living simply for a regular guy too. Dao de Jing Chapter 80 among others speaks to this. I would say it's more a discussion of values and how to implement them (in the context of the time it was authored). Look past the rules to the values expressed through the actions and you will see what "doing it" is. If your values are clear and appropriate, your integrity is high, and your actions are congruent with your values, then there is no need for rules - you will act rightly. Are you a boss? - Yes. Do you practice what Laozi preaches with your subordinates? - Yes. With your children? - Absolutely. And he is an extraordinary child - I hope in part due to this. With your employees? - Yes. I'm fortunate to work in an Asian (Japanese) dominated company, so I can get away with it. If you do, I think it's wonderful. If you are not in a superior position in society and in life, however, you practice what those who are expect you to practice. There's no way around it. Tao Te Ching, The Way of Power, doesn't speak to ordinary people, they have no power to begin with... - Everyone has the capacity to have influence over something or someone else - to be the king of something, if only themselves. How one deals with influence (how they let go of it) is the essence of doing it. It admonishes the powerful. I wonder why so few people among Laozi's afficionados in the West ever notice it... - No need to wonder. The answer is obvious. Our whole society is about finding ways to gain advantage and power. Most people in our society will find the semantics to twist whatever they can (including the Dao de Jing) to be congruent with their values. Ancient taoism is about understanding the Dao de Jing without abstraction (and with humor if you are Zhuangzi), and actualizing the values in whatever kind of life we have - to live in contentment and harmony. This also means acceptance of all the other 'isms - what works, works.

Another great question. Do you mind offering your answer?

TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) based then. I know these concepts. Thank you for your answer. It helps me understand your question.

Gotcha. 我明白。 Another curiosity motivated question if you don't mind. Are you speaking of levitation of the actual physical vessel - or levitation of the de-conditioned mind? You know. Come to think of it - after un-learning - neither or either would be relevant. No answer is needed. That's the blessing of un-learning - to not have an answer is a satisfactory as having one. Peace,

Why? Do you have a health condition for which TCM calls for not ejaculating?

I have a question. I have a pretty good grasp on the concept of karma. Seems reasonable to me. But I'm curious; according to your belief system, what "enforces" it? Maybe it's a stupid question, and it just functions as a natural law or something - but I'm curious enough to ask.

Thanks! It was drawn by a talented 10 year old Chinese kid I know. I think it's cool too.

That's rich! I laughed like a Haitian without water.

it doesn't. yet a good pooh can.

Darn! Seems my point has been muddied. Probably because of a misleading word - and perhaps a fuzzy explanation. "Philosophical Taoism" is about living the philosophy (perhaps not the best word) of the Tao de Jing. It's not about philosophizing about what's in the Tao de Jing, and what a zillion other so called taoist masters, scholars, and sages have said. It's about living it - and obviously it's not right for everyone. So hereinafter I will use the phrase "ancient taoist" instead of "philosophical taoist" - that's what the Chinese call it after all. Seems fair enough. Now I'll employ your analogy... Taoist scholars are the folks sitting on the beach - watching, defining, pontificating, and judging it. Taoist practitioners are like the board surfers - taoist arts and sciences are like a surfboard in that they provide a tool to ride it. Ancient taoists are the body surfers - you rarely see them because they just do it without tools, ritual, or rules. Each has it's value.