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sorry guys but i can't agree with you... you see, it's easy to put things this way, but in fact this state of facts doesn't leave one with too much options.. if your effort is to try and show that there is so much beyond what we think it's Daoism and Buddhism, hell yeah, you're doing a great job... otherwise, i don't agree with this stance. the simple fact that we are alive gives us access to the Force. it depends on the individual's own ability and power to progress outside his nutshell, to deepen his connection with the Force... no matter how small or big this may seem, no master can take this away or give this to us... it's in every little one of us... another flaw of this view of yours is that it makes the wonderer-seeker to start looking out for way-way beyound his head teachings and masters... "Will you walk a little faster?" said a whiting to a snail. "There's a porpoise close behind us, and he's treading on my tail. See how eagerly the lobsters and the turtles all advance! They are waiting on the shingle--will you come and join the dance? Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, will you join the dance? Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, won't you join the dance? "You can really have no notion how delightful it will be When they take us up and throw us, with the lobsters, out to sea!" But the snail replied "Too far, too far!" and gave a look askance-- Said he thanked the whiting kindly, but he would not join the dance. Would not, could not, would not, could not, would not join the dance. Would not, could not, would not, could not, could not join the dance. `"What matters it how far we go?" his scaly friend replied. "There is another shore, you know, upon the other side. The further off from England the nearer is to France-- Then turn not pale, beloved snail, but come and join the dance. Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, will you join the dance? Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, won't you join the dance?"'

uh-hum... if it delivers or not... does the colour of the cat really matter?!

thank you for the effort of trying to explain. but i still don't get it. all i see is a linguistic cat turning around her linguistic tail. intuitively i think i got something from the first time, from your term, New Qi. one should try to write a poem on it... L1

not to go deeper into a linguistic dispute, as you say... please do tell more about this New Qi. i do believe there's always an exchange taking place. to what extent, i cannot know directly, as a man. but i can ask, cant i? L

ahem... of course they loose qi. that's what they feed to the baby, the essence. it's no problem for them, because nature made it so they wouldn't have to worry about it. the valley, the yin, is all-resourcefull... either way, a nursing woman needs to feed and rest better than a woman that doesn't breastfeed... the practice of men regarding the jing issue is different up to a point, and that's part of the normal order of things, i think...

Makes sense to me...

http://www.tao-garden-tv.com/ Hi there... Without a good cooking pot, the food will go to waste... The same with the physical body and energy L1

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I remember a (stupid) joke: if vegetarian diet was a precursory to spiritual life, all the sheep would be enlightened... That aside, I think someway on the path, there comes a day when you can't find meat that palatable, and at least you tend to reduce it from your diet. It's something your body has to arrive to, not forced upon... L1

Health is just a means to an end, what purpose are we talking about... if we're talking Daoism, we're in trouble, as we don't have too many specialists... For some, it's like with sex... it's great in the early youth, but as time passes by, and the body and the mind change, grow, mature, sex become a parroting of that youthfull activity. Sex has in some school 9 levels of depth, most of us are around 1, and some to 1a. It's no wonder it becomes a little weird and kinky as time goes by... if it does not evolve, it freaks, changes into un-natural. I think the same goes with food and health... It's complex, but not the kind of complexity that makes you think, ah, let's gather all the info available and use it by our own intuition... that's not what i have in mind. There are rules and limitations, which change in time, as the object of their purpose evolves... L1

Vegetarians trying to convince Carnivores - that I see a lot Carnivores trying to convince Vegetarians - that I see not so often I can appreciate vegetarianism, but I think it's a bit missunderstood by most of it's followers All this activism doesn't look so healthy to me You should stop and think a bit about it just my 2.000 $ hehe L1

There are a couple of issues that attracted my attention in your post... I hate to see Yoda's thread die so soon, and I started another one, in respect to the thoughts you wrote above. I had a list of questions that i've put together at my workplace, in my spare time, but i can't find it now. Anyway, the questions are still fresh inside my mind, so i'll give it a try anyhow... 1 - Various systems, with sometimes OPPOSITE concepts, they all work out well and give tangible results of their acheivements 2 - Thru the Chinese tradition, whether we talk daoist practice or something else, it's very likely that the ideas and the concepts, and the practices were sometimes borrowed from one Pai to another, and if this indeed the case, my question would be: if a lineage cannot be entirely original and authentical, due to human interaction, what does it make a lineage be a lineage... what is the special ingredient that makes it work that way? 3 - You mentioned "MiJue", can you tell us more about it? There was another concept i've heard somewhere else, called "KouJue"... I've been thinking a long time about these two, and their role in the daoist tradition. There is said to be different levels to them, unlocking specific understanding on the practices, and therefore allowing the disciple to leap from one level to another... 4 - What can we understand from your experience with opposite systems giving simmilar results, in regard of the daoist view of the Void.. I'm appologise for not being exactly clear with my questions, as English is not my mother tongue. A teacher told me that language is an interesting subject to study, they are not different by what they can articulate, but by what they make mandatory for you to say... Thank you L1 PS: Anyone is welcomed to express some oppinion on it... Please do!

Hi, all of them are very good questions, and the adventure of finding out the answer to them is kind of unique, and very satisfactory... I would feel very guilty to "steal" this adventure from you... Good luck in finding your own answers L1

Heh, no, it's not that... It means what it's written there, nothing else. Don't mind me, this is just a small counter-current thinking... We're not the center of the world, this is what it ultimately means, i think... Good luck L1

heh, thank you for letting me know you like it... it's one topic i'd like to see active a lot more, because, as you said, it can offer someone a good training camp... good luck with your life and practice... in the end, if it was all just chasing the winds, at least we did our best in raising our kids, and loving our wives... it's not much, but for people like us, it's enough to live and die for... L1

Heh, thanx for the reminder... I don't think it's exactly what you say it is, more like something close to it... I can't express exactly what. In politics would be not to confuse the servant with the master?!

I understand... All I have to add to what I've said above is that... I think you would be a great daddy! Mal, Not time is the big loss, for most men... It's the selfish nature... Once you stepped over it, it becomes the best spiritual experience you ever had. I can't bet all my money on it, but i think that if a man starts with this thing in mind... it's a completely different story...

Heh, it's not that hard to do, everyone around us is doing it... The thing is, a practicioner can do it for a different reason, which can give it another meaning, and another function, another purpose... I wouldn't skip it... It gives you the complete meaning of becoming a human being... Yes, many of us practice just to transcend this stage, of humanity. The other door of it seems to be at the other end of this stage... We still need to go thru it... There's millions of years invested in this, in our bodies. Many "powers" lie dormant, and Heaven will awake them at the moment that a father's heart blows out open, to enter that dimension of being where he needs to take care of his wife and child... With responsability comes power, and the other way around... Don't think it was an easy pie for me... L1

Oh man, it's not about being married or not... It's about fulfilling your destiny as a human being... There are various roads to that, in various cultures, but most of them encompass what the title of this topic suggests, one way or another... Without that, we have nothing... It is said that one of the most important things in life is having no regrets of things you should have done, when you look back... Having a wife (consort or what you want to name it) Having a child Having a workplace that allows you to express your nature Having a social life, human energy interaction, is cultivating your human soul... I am sure you knew all that, I just repeat them for the sake of repeating... Peace L1 PS: This alone of course will not take you too high, or too deep, but it's an excelent precursory to: "Don't worry, your feelings about kids are normal adult male feelings... No exceptions... i think... Until it happens to you. Then you become a complete man, Ren, if you please. YM is right... the first way to immortality is thru your children. If you want to go beyond that, you would still need a first hand experience with it. Just to see the amount of dedication and real-life envolvement that it really means. Immortality is a high goal, with the little we do daily, it's just a farfetched dream. Your kids will be the best teacher at what it means to become an immortal..."

in the light of the recent topics posted, i felt the need to bump

Hey boys Don't worry, your feelings about kids are normal adult male feelings... No exceptions... Until it happens to you. Then you become a complete man, Ren, if you please. YM is right... the first way to immortality is thru your children. If you want to go beyond that, you would still need a first hand experience with it. Just to see the amount of dedication and real-life envolvement that it really means. Immortality is a high goal, with the little we do daily, it's just a farfetched dream. Your kids will be the best teacher at what it means to become an immortal... Amen! L1

Great post, please do keep them coming... When writing the Chinese Characters, please write the pinyin also, it's more helpful. I enjoy all your posts on meditation... they also played a part in convincing me to start a parallel daily meditation routine of at least an hour per session, half or full-lotus, just sitting and feeling the expansion and contraction of the belly, normal and reverse breathing... I pretty much do nothing, yet thing are moving inside and outside on their own accord... Thanx L1

Heheh, Congrats! I second that, even third that!...

Heh, you're right... there, I went there and just did that. I feel better now...

Maybe I'm a little off-line here, but I thought about sharing something, maybe others felt the same too... There was a constant subtle (sometimes very apparent) disrespect in his attitude towards all the folks here on the TTB. I think what made us all react was not just his information about relligious taoism, which, by the way, sometimes was a little more interesting than the 5 o'clock news Like a window into a paralel universe... Way to go there Sean... or was it Karma Police, or was it the dog poo he stepped on this morning... he is a proud man, and you made him lose face. I wonder if he'll have the strenght to come back...