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Yeah, what he said! Energy practice with too little body exercise = wasted time and wasted health

I think you heavily misread what I said. It usually happens in internet discussions, as someone said, these are the joys of internet communication. In spite of liking or not liking my initial response, I still maintain it. And I'm sure Procurator doesn't need my or any other support on this... in fact I appologize to him and Growant for sticking my nose in someone elses problems. I just sustain an idea, that a practicioner can go well beyound that type of manifested "sensitivity", and resolve things much faster and clearer. My idea of it is that private problems should stay private, and be resolved private. It's the best way, for me. But like I said, we live in different worlds. Here, this'll cheer you up: "Bloody men are like bloody buses You wait for about a year And as soon as one approaches your stop Two or three others appear. You look at them flashing their indicators, Offering you a ride. You're trying to read the destinations, You haven't much time to decide. If you make a mistake, there is no turning back. Jump off, and you'll stand there and gaze While the cars and the taxis and lorries go by And the minutes, the hours, the days" - Wendy Cope (She wrote it in regard of men, but it can be applied to human relationships as well)

bravo, nice article, i fully agree and have simmilar experience, that i know life offers thru it's hardships, wear and tear, and so on, and it's priceless. yet, i would like to hear a master like Hatsumi talk about it, in regard to the 9 Cuts i have a feeling he had all of that and worse *dreamy emoticon here* AND, by the way, it's ninja LORE

You said little to nothing about you and your sorcerer's path. I wonder what do you really want.

I never thought about the 9 Cuts as if they were a progression. I see it more in a circular manner. Like marbles. And the string that connects them is... Master Masaaki Hatsumi teaches it. Is any of his students with us? Not likely, but it's worth a try.

Speaking of prejudices... if I'd be to judge you on this statement alone, my opinion on you wouldn't be a very good one. Also bringing it up into the public. I've been raised to act like a man, resolving things discreetly, without much fuss. And certainly not complaining and whining to others. So you see, we live in different worlds. We need compasion, yes, but we also need wisdom and a broader understanding. If it were to happen to me, I wouldn't act the way you did, and do. I hope you understand. Peace L1

I really like him. I don't know why, I guess it's because he walks his talk, a thing that I rarely encounter these days. I think he has much to say, he's a serious man, he studies the daoism seriously, and when you'll least expect, he'll tell you what he thinks. In two short sentences, usually, concentrated and hard to digest, as many of you well remarked. There are worst things than having your ethnicity insulted, and a good practicioner eventually finds a way to get over it. When you have a forum that has a couple of thousand people with different beliefs and experiences, things like this are more likely to happen... daoists or not, we are still human. There I said it. Does this make me a bad person? L1

I agree with that 100% Until you really GOT to the level of refinement where you can ACTUALLY do the merging, you will waste time imagining things, and this is absolutely NOT what K&L is about. The mind is a dangerous thing, only when it moves too fast. I must add, from my experience, that there are different types of Kan and different types of Li. Which break the practice into different types for different purposes. For instance, when I look at certain people that I see at my workplace, at my job, many of them have the Li, heat, separated and brought up, in the upper part of the heart, near the neck almost. Many others have the Kan, water and dampness, too much and lowered to the lower part. Each of them have a different symptom and diagnostic. Although, through meditation and qigong it would be very beneficial for those persons to try and bring the water and fire to their places, and even interact, to produce the third essence, the practice of K&L that I speak of implies a different type of water, and a different type of fire. The Xian Tian and Hou Tian can add much to understanding here. I think those who have acces to the documentation can confirm this. L1 PS: Even if the information is out it depends MUCH on the type of mind that receives it. So yes, it comes down to the mind, eventually, but in a Chinese way, the Xin, the heart-mind.

Try pinching yourself. Harder. Harder. Even harder. Now, are you the body or not? Got your point, but long way until there. L1

good! it is said that the good deeds have to develop into a cumulus, much like a form of qi that condenses. i wonder how could it be done. thanx

*I THINK* this is a part of what i search. let me explain for the rest of our friends why i insist so much on it: it's because merit is a BIG BIG part of our cultivation, and cultivation extends well beyound doing your practice routine everyday. there are huge chunks that reffer to something else. a HUGE chunck is having accumulated SO MUCH merit, that you can succesfully negotiate with the heavens regarding your cultivation and destiny... it envolves acts of such powerfull nature, the kinds that save lifes, save minds, save souls. the kind that bring forth light into this world and hope for humanity. remember all of the high initiate. they all did it. and added that everyone could do it, it's easy, and it's reccomended. i hope it's more clearer now. and yes James, it does get simmilar to having money. it's universal credit actually. and there are a lot of policies and logistics when you deal with money. so's with this... i don't think i'll find it out on an internet forum board, but at least i won my brownie point by bringing it even more into your attention still waiting for other insights Little

there's xian tian and hou tian for any level of the practice. when you involve feeling it's the hou tian. the transfer of consciousness to the energy should happen during the Fusion formulas. but this doesn't mean that everyone who practices Fusion can pass to that level. actually i think this is kind of a gate: if you pass it, the doors of the formulas open wide. that's why people that got to kan and li or even sealing the senses, and then started saying it's not what they expected...- they didn't follow the natural development of the elixir, aka, the energy, which in the formula of the Fusion becomes a receptacle for human consciousness, in a very precise way. Master Chia himself said that he studied this matter a long time, before he came to any acheivement. glad to be of some service, bro' take care now Emanuel S. all you need to know is in what you study. i don't know how involved is your teacher in studying the system, but it'w wonder within wonder... it doesn't bring up instantaneous bliss or illumination, but it helps one refine his being... until when? it depends on destiny. but it can take one pretty far, in one lifetime. it doesn't bring power first, yet it develops wisdom and compassion, and health, both physical and emotional. that's not easy to find. let us dig deep in what life put before our noses. you can follow Winn's doubts and research on it if you want. neither he did accept it on the spot. now he seems he made his mind up. and still he remains a researcher...

sheng zhen, what you are searching for is found out in the xian tian side of the practice. one cannot jump to that, it happens naturally as you continue the practice of the formulas. after you transfer your awareness to the nonphysical. this cannot happen by force. it's a process. after that you learn to work directly into the nonphysical, and see what methods are effective and what methods are not. you may have some suprises. as Trunk said, there's more than one way to do things... Good luck bro' L1

forgive me for interrupting this, but the man said that KL may be a good practice, different things work for different people. it's not the practice that he has something against with, it's the pretense of being something that it is not. and that i'm afraid, is not based on a hunch. if it'd raised some question marks, the better... we all need to look beyound what we see, don't we, Pumba? L1

Trouble? Simple... if you are to study something, in a way that truely changes your life, I don't think it's just chanse. It has to be destiny. Imagine you playing with your destiny. Which I picture to be like an overwhelming force. It has the power to push you back into your riverbed, everytime you try to go abroad. I remembered something about Castaneda now: it's a page in one of his early books, where the Indios are discussing about christian saints, with Don Juan... DJ said, they are not your protectors, they don't protect you. The others said, well, they forgive our sins and advice us not to sin any more. DJ said, if they were your protectors, they would teach you, and then even force you to be good, and not to sin anymore. Coming from a quasiEastern mindset, I can understand what he said, although it can sound outrageous to an American, or any liberty fan. I hope you can. Life's not simple. I may spoil all the wisdom you seen in the other article, but it's the truth. We have little choise. "Choise is a word invented by those with power for those who have not any". - The Merovingian "The only freedom that a warrior has is to be impecable. Any other thing would mean his annihilation." DJ Back to Kan and Li, I haven't practiced it. But if it was as it is with the basics, it could be like this: anything you work to get it moving, it doesn't matter, as long as you are doing progress. Those who stand and wait for things to happen, I think they have misread their cultivation books. Back to the river analogy, you can push the water - that's not very smart. Or you can make a riverbed for the water to flow into. And I feel this is what proper practice does. The inner smile.

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The trouble with Master Chia's system is that it looks simple and westernized only on the first glance... I know many won't agree and maybe I'll have do *duck and cover* I said it before, there are great teachers out there, that are still digging deep into this system. I don't know why they do it. I'm just following some footsteps, and, where I'm going and am until now, I like it. It really brings clearness, gratitude and wisdom. Health too, prosperity also... It seems these are all connected. When I speak to people that practice a more traditional way of daoism, it feels so different. Someplaces daoism is a very precise thing, just as newspaper writing or I don't know, house building, even in the sense of a sort of a proffesion. I still have no definitive conclusions on this, still researching. But, coming back to what I was writing above, there are people that, by dao and daoism understand "the way of Nature", "the middle way"... So you see and feel it in their lifestyle. Some of them have special abilities, and even a close connection with the Heavens, that they use to help others. And just when you'd say, maybe they'll move on to something more interesting, they say: "Master Chia's system is just very good, very good. You only need to just practice it... There are more out there talking about it than practicing it". And there they go, studying it even closer, and closer. And after all these years, I ask them: "What practice do you do?" They say: "Oh some Inner Smile, some Healing Sounds, some MCO...". I mean, they don't go on for something more "special" or powerfull. I can't advice you, cause you see, I'd be putting myself the same questions and problems if I were you. And I actually did... they led me to trouble, but it seems to end up good, I think and hope. Can't tell more about it. - But I always have the case of these wonderful people before my eyes. I cannot deny any of it... Belive me, I have a very doubtfull mind, and searched it all inside out. And I'm not done yet. Anyway, the system seems to be like this... you can go on and skip some of the practices, or jump to more advanced if you'd like. But it's more of a process of refinement... each of the formulas are stages of refinement of the energy. You can go further, but the Basics are always like a warm and welcoming home. It's not like you go on and get to another level because you are curious with it. Your being will feel when you need to move to the next level. Sometimes you move to the next level for a little time, then coming back. It takes time before you cristallize your new position, you understand. So, in conclusion I never moved to practice Fusion on a regular basis. Sometime I do have the kind of power and focus one needs for it, and I do it. I understand your concerns though, regarding what is true or not. For me, the only proof I need right now is the life of the practicioner. If their life is well arranged, has harmony and power, intelligence and wisdom, I'd be a fool not to learn what they learn, whatever that is. I don't like to concern myself with scholarly matters on this, this would come second, and only as a hobby. I hope you'll like my answer. To keep a record of it, I'll paste it on my article section also. Cheers L1 PS: Of course I always suspect it must be more to it, it always is. So it's still work in progress for me... Like I said, kindergarden...

Thank you all, and I don't want to seem stubborn on it, but I really really feel there must be a lot more to it. What you describe I would call a normal state of a healthy human being. What about an entire practice regarding that... Just a fiew pieces of real life, a fiew pieces of daoist theory, and an uncanny sense of something ahead.

Sorry but you're mistaken: Master Chia didn't say about "just visualization"... The System involves all the senses converged into one. Sensing is transformed into living act. It's part of the Fusion Formulas, that's why you cannot attend College before graduating Highschool. By the way, that's why I'm still in Kindergarden level with it all... It's more contentfull... L1

I've been reading a second time thru all of your postings on this. I don't mean to be unfair, but they seem rather insubstantial... Like for instance, people begin now to realise that if they want a working practice, they should dedicate at least 1-2 hours a day. The idea that you can do it how and when you want it, it's starting to fade slowly... The same is with merit... You cannot think of cultivating merit with sparringly doing some good deed and trying to be mindfull at life's lessons. Not that these aren't good and proper. But they seem to be more like prerequisite, not the practice itself. From your knowledge, is there in Asia any practice concerned with this? Mind me, I expect it to be as complex as the meditation systems that we saw emerging from there these last decades... Thanx again L1

thanx a lot guys any other views on it?

Ok, good luck and thanx for the feedback

Of course there is Maoshan in Hawaii There's Zealand, and New Zealand, York and New York Georgia and New Georgia Age, and New-Age... and so on and so forth... So for everything conceivable, there is a "New" and "Fashionable" version. Why not Hawaian Maoshan Sorcery? Lollz But wait, we are all playing with words, don't we... If only masters would have the patience to read internet forums That'll be the day! L1

Enjoyed and appreciated What's not to like about messages like that? That they dont concord with your ideas? Well that's the beauty of it... Live and learn L1

Interesting. But do you have any personal experience with Master Chia? Also Winn talks about this episode, Mantak learning from Lar Short - in Winn's words, Mantak added a type of phowa projection to the second formula. Winn prefers developing the energy body inside the physical. Master Chia prefers developing it outside. It's not a discussion about who's better, I think it all comes down to destiny and - why not - personal predilection. I learn Master Chia's practice - there are six or seven years. Not much time, compared to others here. my teacher likes to keep in contact with Master Chia, and studies the way Master Chia has enhanced the body of knowledge that he teaches. The teachings have been evolving over the years - in his own words, that's what makes them living. I have no quarells about traditionalism or modernism regarding practice, but only interested in efficiency. Mantak seems to have the exact same mindset. He has an intriguing and sometimes funny way to go arount things that would bound a practicioner to groups, lineages or organisations. He likes freedom, and a direct connection with the Heavens and Tao. This is what I make of it up until now. It's my personal view on it, and I hope it can enrich other's. Peace 2 u 2 L1