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this happens when martial artists and neikung aprentices come together. remember each of them has an entirely different attitude: martial arts are more direct, more frank to the point of rudeneness. if you pick up the challenge and fight, and do a good fight, you will earn their respect. if you start whining and go "i was a nice guy and look what happened.." you will just make them more angry. and they will despize you. remember neikung and martial arts went along pretty well in taoist history, and both attitudes are two sides of the coin, eventually you will need to come to the "golden means" with this too. many of your pictures and posts helped me, and i think they help other people, BUT dont mind if they didnt have the effect you expected. everyone takes what they need. your attitude and energy shows that your qi is still up in the chest area, you need to work more to bring it down to the navel. then all these arguments will not stand in your way. please take this friendly, i know we are all men and have our egos to protect, but i mean you no disrespect. regarding kwan saihung, ive addopted a saying from ninpo training: take something good out of everything. this is in response to your wish to go ahead with the interview cheer up dao zhen

i stumbled upon three or four. but i guess it depends on the one that looks for them. i guess the wall gazing should clear up anyone's "eyeglasses" one more thing, there is a saying: it is not the student that chooses a school, it is the school that selects the student. although our western internet culture would probably suggest otherwise... but it is an important life event, as important as birth, wedding, being a parent, or dying. and human choise has it's percentage in it: less than 20%

oh i see, i didnt know that. well then, exact or not, we still need some history lessons on taoism. we heard much about it from other sources, so why not from a Chinese source, its much better. the more he can say, the better. you have the right to adjust my questions anyway you want.

yes, i can think of yet another question, but i dont know if either of them is interested or qualified to answer that is, it would be very helpful for the taobums to grasp at a general idea of HISTORY OF TAOISM, at least its largest historical facts. what were the original several schools, how and when did other schools appear, is it possible to make a diagram with the "tree evolution" of schools and such. this would make the credential issue come more clear, and will make every participant more mature when it comes to making decisions about which path to follow, and how much authenticity lies within it. this i think would be very beneficial for all the searchers and researchers out there. another question pertaining history, would they like to comment this clasification of the so called six great paths: Lei Shan Dao Jin Dan Dao Yang Shen Dao Tong Ling Dao Miao Tong Dao Sha Mian Dao is this clasification real, and if it is, could they issue some data on them. also i think this would come together with the first question another question would be regarding the "elixir". i know many thing cant and shouldnt be said about it. at the very least, please ask them to share what do they know the "elixir" ISNT. there is so much mistery and assumption regarding it, that it would be better to specify WITH WHAT SHOUDNT THE ELIXIR BE CONFUSED... another question... i assume by now those masters had their share of foreign students. judging by what they saw up until now, could they issue an oppinion on what would generally be the steps of cultivation adjusted to the western body/mind system thank you for this opportunity E

to guy nr 2: A dictionary of taoist terminology would come in pretty handy. Would they mind sharing the basic tenets of taoist alchemy... jing, qi, shen, what are they, how does the understanding on them change from one level to another. Also what does neidan, yang sheng, neigong, shengong mean... to guy nr 1: what are the most important rules in the taoist temples. to whomever may concern: what is the meaning of "Dragon Gate", what is it exactly.

thats right harry, we are more creative in convincing others than in convincing ourselves. in the end, its about efficiency. if you can make others belive it, you will start to belive it too, slowly. i think this is just a tool and can -and is - used many ways. some get good with it, some get nasty... there is also a paradox to it only after you start to belive (in yourself also), you can discover whether you are a good person-virtuous type, or a not so virtuous type. this can still be solved, as we live in the land of impermanence. and its only one of the applications of it. L1

i didnt ask you to divulge secrets. did i? of course not. feel free to share anything you want, that is not secret. or you can show us a way to find................ to- find- a- way- to- have- a -chanse- to- find- a -way- to- be- lucky- enough- to find a way to earn hard that knowledge ourselves. and im not playing irony here (please be really carefull what you say now)

well i just asked ya, so go ahead and speak up im sure you have something worth to say i am truely interested

I hope i'm not interrupting anything Procurator, I think you should try and focus your beliefs in a thread of your own. You told us about DON'Ts, please try and formulate something about the DO's Otherwise, your credibility is greatly flawed. In case that doesnt bother you, carry on.

hi Harry, i think it is one of the many ways, i tried that too. it goes like this: first thing: in order to get any kind of results in your practice, the mind has to become as still as possible. it is not possible to get that when you have doubts. belief is actualy not about morality but can be taken as some sort of technical - pragmatic tool. second thing: it's not very sane to try and argue with yourself in your head about what is right and what is wrong, what is the truth and what is not truth. third thing: but hey, this is why we humans live as a comunity. you cant convince yourself, well, start convincing others. when others become convinced, and aply, your own doubts will go away very fast. i know it sound simplistic and silly, but my experience showed it really works. the ego-mind cannot be convinced by itself, but it bows to the example of others. i have the same game to play against myself, Harry, and one thing i learned the hard way was that doubts dont just work against others, they cut through our power too. and wisdom. and love. they are cut by our doubts. in christianity is one of the gratest sins. maybe in other relligions too, im not sure. good luck L1

So tell me, Wu Liu, how Ethical is to take something and not Pay for it? If you belive in Karma, how can you not belive that everything that has been hard worked for, deserves some form of recompensation. Also, money is not the only method. You can pay by time and hard work. A lot of stories tell about students spending years in row practically being servants at their master's house. We need to have an asset that allows us to earn something. If we lack the discipline and skillfulness of aquiring Material and Visible assets and skills, do we think you will ever be ready for Difficult and Less Visible tasks like Energy and Spirit and liberation... Please take this friendly, i am not to deffend anyone here, but the idea of Reciprocity is valid, everywhere

i understand you and i do appreciate your posts where you share some of what you have learned. it helps many of us see a bigger picture of what we are doing, and that is a good thing, there have been many mistery talks around here, but fiew made sense, beyound just battling egomania i too studied their forum a while ago, and many more others, including the long-lost HT archive since the early beginning, and after confronting with facts from other people that knew some of the characters, i came to a stupid conclusion: YOU CANNOT FIND TRUE STORIES ON THE INTERNET. to some this is unfair, to me is just sad. what is even sad is that most of us dont have a well equipped "BS detector", often the bull is taken for the real thing, and viceversa. this is an open forum, in which everyone can create whatever image they want, and the rest is free to just ASS-U-ME. the most important thing is having around us good people too, that really want to help clear out the fog a little, in a constructive way. if it was for me, i would have given you a mission like: PLEASE try and gather up some parameters, some guidance lines, for searchers and researchers, by which they would not be so easily mislead. i know its a free world and everybody has the right to belive any story they want, but there may be yet some, that think otherwise and look otherwise. and this mission should be for all of us, at least all of us that are interested. please take this the friendly way

isnt it funny that the most famous taoist system these days (Chia's) is also the least understood i have respect for every path, and definately what Liping teaches is of interest to many, including me but as someone said, if you expect someone to tell you everything you need to do in life... just lame only a fool will blame or praise the method only... the method is not even 5% the understanding is what shapes the practice of the method. the proper mindset and progression, the prerequisites, are all part of that.

the only thing you can succede with this approach is free publicity for the guy, funny isnt it

Yes, thank you Brian and Taomeow and others like them, for keeping our heads where they belong, and for the quality of the ideas and even guidance. TTB needs more like you

you know, W., in some strange misterious way, you might just actually be right

since the early recorded history, spiritual and religious temples were loaded with wealth and power. even to these days, the situation is simmilar. i know this may be unpalatable to some, but this is just how things are. im not the one to try and change the world.

yes nicely put, but the last sentence "I feel sorry for them" just doesnt add... Their situation doesnt seem to require any complaining on their part Chanwu, I understand your frustration, please dont be upset, I am sure things will get better for you in some other way, cheer up

i think we could see a paradigm here: step 1 - since the Indian tantric gurus came to the West, the West started to reconsider SEX as it can be a tool for self improvement, and even help us to evolve spiritually... step 2 - since the Chinese qigong masters came to the West, we started to reconsider MONEY as being a valuable asset in spiritual development... Of course, we are still in the middle of that process now, because there are more people out there having SEX than having MONEY. But sometimes you need MONEY in order to have SEX, well... some people do. Boy is this a puzzle...

from what i know Jiang doesnt charge one penny i dont know about Liping, but i expect to be the same so i let you figure it out also i know that money are very important to Chinese people, they even have money for the dead. it is like sex, that in the West has been satanized over the centuries money had the same fate in the West But the Grand East sees Money a lot different than us. for us any association between money and spirit is of bad taste. but to them is a form in which you show them your "Sincerity". so, having these anthropology facts, and those above, you draw whatever conclusion you want. the truth is, i know of students that are payed BY the teacher, so that they can study and afford to study. why is that, is because real students are very scarce, very rare. if they are to find one, they are looking everywhere, and sometimes they take him out of the cradle of his childhood only to teach him fresh... just like our friend Radu was searching. and i expect that, whatever paradoxically the situation may be, the real thing to be the same even with Liping and Jiang. there are two categories of students: - smart students that pay - stupid students that pay and the third would be - real students, part of the familiy, of which you sometimes dont even suspect they are students at all these may sound as fancifull theories, but just keep them in mind, maybe someday will help Little PS: About DShen i dont know anything and wont comment. although time will show what is it all about. he has a very respectable business, his students are sharp and smart and dont get fooled as easily as most of you guys think. he just told them that he had what they want, and demonstrated that he can deliver. what more could you want. especially if you afford it, and want to Finally Figure It Out. Liping has the best credentials ever. and his association with David is taken as a guarantee. its fool-proof. imagine that all the guys there paying all that doll' turned and searched every corner. i met them on the forum (admit it SeanD, i wasnt that bad, you kicked me out because i was saying Mantak's methods are good, and the rest of you didnt agree, so, David knew i wouldnt shut up so he did what any Chinese would do - im past that, and am really impressed by your progresses, they are shown in the tone and discipline of your messages) what to do? there is a proverb that says People Throw Rocks At What They Cant Reach i guess, as Max said, everyone should stick to what their possibilities can afford, and move on, carry on. if David proved anything to us with SeanD's Forum, is that you require a lot of work to make a good method yield results. they practice a couple of hours a day, for God's sake! if any of us would be that dedicated, im pretty sure they would get the same best results, if not better. it is all in the amount of Trust and Dedication you grant your Practice and System and Teacher. take care and let the trolling for trolls

Cutting away all KL posting or redirecting it somewhere else could be a drastical sollution. I prefer something more simple. The real problems are the new threads with questions about KL. Those deserve a special place, as they seem to be many and still repeting quite a lot. Brian, we cannot turn this forum into something more canonical either, because, as someone said, it started out noncanonical, and will continue this way. There are some traditional-way lovers here too, including myself, who know that credentials are not lightly taken by more traditional folks. But its not important to everyone. The new fireflys that started nagging Sean and making noise about allowing KL to be criticised are of course people we all know, now with a different ID, the energy in their posts is so familliar.

im a bit busy

let me give it a shot, please 1. what is the difference between digging one single hole to make a fountain and get water, and digging multiple little holes hoping you will find the water thread only a couple of centimeters beneath the soil 2. very much like to know that too 3. i think it is called dao yin, and it was directly concerned with building the back part of the body. although dao yin is a very general concept, there are masters that summed up specific complexes of exercises dedicated to that particular purpose... 4. it is not technical, it is only a feeling, the same ability to move, contract and relax, every little muscle of the body, as easy as if it was your hand. for the body to aquire.... dexterity? 5. thats a simple one, because the best defence is a good ofence now please allow me to make my interrogations also 1. what is qi 2. what is jing 3. what is the elixir 4. why is the elixir so difficult to move in the orbit 5. if you solidify the dan, is it possible to turn it liquid again

i didnt knew that, interesting to read... anyhow, you must understand, i used to be arrogant, but now im perfect

also you didnt specify clearly what is the real purpose of the question also what answer would you expect on it also the trademark of "pop daoism" (god i love this expression ) is the un-necesarry over-simplification also saying all ways lead to the same peak is the same trademark. every path has a different goal... sounds strange? it wouldnt if you considere there is NO PEAK. each path carries you as long as it can on this infinite road.... once the PEAK idea becomes clear, there shouldnt be any worry as in what your neighbour practicioners are doing...