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that would surely mean up to 15 years of dilligent and consistent training, impressive. al the more so as the type of training required for that result seems very demanding.

no one dares take a stab at these questions, interesting

maybe assisting the knees with some standing meditation. or some knee workout like tree qigong,

@Mike of course his opinions evolved [though it's still unclear to what extent] and so will mine, this is the whole point of this topic, to confront ideas and paradigms to people that know more about the subject. so by all means, ram into them, i'll be happy to pick up the pieces that still stand, i.e, not rejected, or rejected without valid arguments [this is an open invitation]. i'm NOT a mopai wannabe, please understand. i have deep respect for this school, teachers and students, but i have my own practice. what i am looking for is PERSPECTIVE. that is what kosta's and jim's book offered, for better or for worse, and those perspectives changed the way we look at chi cultivation phenomena in the west. i'm hoping to piece it all together in one thread, for refference. so thank you either way ~ there are some other questions that come in mind [not 'aimed' at you but you're welcome to respond as well if you feel so]: ~ how does the specific neigong energy interact with the body's own bioenergy? it seems that they do to a certain extent, as training seems to ease and even heal some ailments, however the process is still fuzzy, because you'll get improvement in some parts, and no response in others. hmm. ~ regarding that, if the neigong energy does interact fully with the bioenergy, would it primarely focus on repairing physical damage? that will explain why more aged practitioners, as well as the ones that have (minor) health problems, take longer to FILL the center.

up to now no one denied that the respective breathing practice [as posted by user shaq786] is part of level one, interesting.. @joeblast, i believe that the entrainement state generated by coherent breathing is part of the media that generates the state of 'meditation' needed to FILL. good info. i'll be sure to read your article again. @thelerner, i've read something interesting in jim's book yesterday, with regards to your thread about HEAT filling the LDT: ~it's not heat per se that fills it, heat is an effect of gathering Qi in that area. it seems it's the first of two signs that accompany the progress in FILLING, the second sign apparently is harder to obtain, but it does not specify what it is. ~ the book makes alot of refference about differences between qigong and neigong methodologies, @RW, i think it'd be a nice addition to the practice books you hold dear. @Mike, as far as i know neigong and qigong's primal difference is that qigong works only with yang energy [mainly heat generating practices], meanwhile neigong works with yin and yang together. is that a valid criteria? how does it apply to s-m? also time is another, it took many practitioners more that 6 years to accomplish level one [jim needed 10 if i recall]. the difference in time and dedication should show up later as efficiency. btw, LEVEL 3 info: it seems that the practice for this level takes more than 10 hours of dedicated work PER DAY. talk about commintment. @RW, i don't think you need to know more about other systems, sometimes it makes you mind move around too much, and leaves too little time for practice hehe. i admit i'm fascinated by the methodologies and the reasoning behind them, this is a hobby of mine, i like to know, i have to know but aside that, i have my own practice [been keeping at it ~slothfully, modern distractions are a great opponent~ for a few years now]. in terms of efficiency, i think s-m is more appropriate practice to modern times, it seems to require less dedication and time compared to traditional neigong [as in mopai], and from the testimonials i've read, the efficiency is not half bad! also, you can't use s-m for combat purposes, many say it's because it's not deviced for that, but i think the real answer is the power generated by s-m is insufficient for that purpose. i maybe wrong, but it kind of makes sense that way. also, i believe s-m works with FILLING rather than OPENING the center [as explained before], which make it's effects more qigong-like. this is not meant as judgemental and cheap criticism ~ many will say the proof is in the pudding. still, you don't need to be a genius to put 2 and 2 together. each person should choose what they feel it's more appropriate to their goals, energetic constitution, as well as the amount of time and discipline one wants to consume with such an endeavour. [i'm a firm believer in 'the more one... the more one...' equation.] thanks for reading,

Great tip, i discovered that by myself. When everything fails, return to breathing, it's life. @Joeblast, that a great tip also, entrainment breating, coherent breathing. It seems to be responsible for creating a specific state of physiological confort and efficiency in the body, called 'the zone'. there are devices that train with them, biofeedback-ish, i don't like them that much but the idea is brilliant. thanks, and keep adding. I'm currently reading Jim's book on his experience, interesting tips there about the practice. For instance, he says that level 2 is a continuation of level one, that is, you have the same meditation. What differs is an additional isometric exercise deviced to compress and enlarge the capacity of the LDT. he also adds some specifics about level one practice: it includes three factors 1, meditation, which is a specific state, reach-able via concentration 2, breathing practice, [i have reasons to believe that the poster shaq 786 already shared this part as followes: Posted 21 July 2012 - 12:06 PM My question is 1. how long do I wait after masturbation before I practice my energy cultivation? 2. And how long do I wait after practicing energy cultivation so that I can masturbate? Here are the methods that I use for energy cultivation: 1. Meditation focusing on the dan tien only, breathing in deeply and holding it for 5 seconds and releasing it fully and holding that for 5 seconds. Stomach expands on inhalation and collapses on exhalation. 2. I also do, meditation focusing on the dan tien only, breathing in deeply and holding it for 5 seconds and releasing it fully and holding that for 5 seconds. BUT this time the Stomach collapses inward on inhalation and expands on exhalation. and 3, a specific detail used for gathering yin energy, which i derived from Mike's post as being practicing on the ground.

i suppose that's why you require a strong body to do this kind of training. btw, people say you're good with breathing practices, and from reading your posts about it i tend to agree with them. can i ask you something, what do you think is, in your experience, the most effective way to increase lung capacity. the question is related to the topic, as most of the practices of neigong include breathing as a component. thanks!

As far as i've noticed, the methodology of filling is simmilar in most schools, the type of Qi is the one that really differs. for instance, the Christianity has the stilling of the mind via a practice known as Hesychasm, with various points of focus inside and outside the body. It's an esoteric part of the Christian Orthodox Church. Also, there is a prayer, that needs a specific breathing pattern. And so on. We see simmilarities like these in many systems. They add their specific vibration via their particular focus, and all sorts of methods that accompany STILLNESS. Stillness filles the body with Qi. 'When the body is still, the jing stays, when the emotions are tranquil, the Qi stays, when the Mind is still, the spirit returns' ~ Forgot the author...

Actually, Kostas reffers to the 'Opening' as pertaining to level two in mopai technology. @Michael, it does strike a chord, however i'm not very familiar with the steaming process reffering to specific centers, as in opening upper centers via steaming.. @RW, Opening is an entire new dimension, it adds compression of the Qi to the practice, to aquire the desired result, i.e, the 'melting' of the 'knot' @Chris, yeah, i thought about that, it's an interesting connection that i wanted to discuss here on this thread

I'm not sure we really need to know, but what make it interesting to me it's the concept of CUTTING. The concept that the LDT is kept in place by FOUR (as i recall) threads. What are those threads? Where do they lead to? the ones that lead down, do they link with the testies (the seminal ducts? wow, do guys that had vasectomy have a problem with this practice?) Are they nourishing the LDT or just the stuff that make that KNOT what it is, a center.. Soo many questions! Does every center have the same physical/energetical ties? Why? What are their purpose? To me it's like asking about where exactly is my liver, and what does it do? Finding out about additional physical/energy structures that we are not aware of, it's like, wow, there is still stuff to be discovered inside us! Marvelous!

well put, should be a sticky, and linked to all future mopai threads, imo

Hello my friends, Just a website i stumbled upon recently, Extremely Informative! http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/home Please read and follow, also if the mods think it's a good idea, we should work up a solution to make it known by most of the taobums. I think it's an exercise of mental awareness, and should prove a fun way to test your conversation skills, as well as others'. Comments if you please. E.

About that... There is a concept that's been bugging me for years, related to the practice of neigong and qigong, namely the notion of 'chi field'. It reffers to a kind of vibration field that is generated by a group of practitioners that do the practice together. Supposedly, the master can 'tune' the 'field' to help the practitioners, boost the 'signal' of the practice, which contains the 'transmission'. Is this something that you, during your studies and experiences, have fond to be part of the 'real thing Daoism', or is it just a 'popular approach'? What is it exactly? Thanks! E

perhaps, i sometimes think in those terms for encouragement, but alas, i know that's the only use of it, confort. to me this part of life is very important, and it always was, since childhood.. it's an intrinsic part of who i am, and it's only natural that i should look for the best. i don't quite feel it as an option, have it or not, because it was always with me. the only option is, how far will i go for it. i'm sure YM's answers may not be too romantic and maybe not as generous in options as your average spiritual philosophy, but i feel they offer a realistic, and therefore, helpful perspective. cutting away the unreal can have the enormous benefit of letting us see our real options, this in turn saves time, time is something we barely have, as humans. E,

basically it seems that you can't be a volunteer in these matters, it happens, as in sh*t happens, or not. if you're looking for it actively, you're looking for a specific something, and you're ready to receive that specific something and nothing else. hence the impossibility of receiving the accurate transmission, 'as it is'. at least that's how i understood it, more or less. that's why now i'm opened to anything/everything, what helped me in that direction is that, anyway, the features of [a] training that i found out about were not what i would imagine they would be like. but it made so much sense. in other words, you can't really anticipate anything in this regard, when it comes to authentic stuff. and i'm more interested in receiving the real thing, as it is, whatever it is like, than pursuing my own ideas. it matches the specifics of my real needs as a human being, and not what i think i need, which sometimes can be two different things. otherwise, is like some people here do: they ask questions to which they think they already hold the answer to. which is kind of cool in a way, but kind of boring in the long run, eh?

yes, it's more clear [of course] i'll be back with more questions, haha. Best E.

i heard some people translating that character as : 'no fire' , as in 'a non-fiery qi, not burning, neutral, balanced' do we have this kind of qi in nature? where? how can human beings get in contact with it? i read the article about the 'classification of immortals', i remember reading about it not long ago in Eva Wong's translation. however, i'm not sure what 'pure yang' means. can you provide some refference? thanks! E. ps: i understand that 'transmission' of a [neigong etc] lineage requires yuanfen, or fate/destiny, without which the transmission cannot take place. is it a specific type of yuanfen? i remember [the only case of a westerner seeking a real transmision that i am aware of] the case with kosta danaos, he was voluntarely seeking knowledge, but at the same time the master dreamt about kosta looking for him. would that qualify as the specific required type of yuanfen? i myself am not sure what to think, looking at the result, that is, in the end their connection ended in an unfortunate way. of course i just provide a case as an example, it's hard to estimate what really happened. j chang also mentioned that there are universal laws that allow for such transmision, especially beyond a basic level, to occur. since all these things have been already figured out, i think we might as well learn about it, to avoid fooling ourselves, and letting others fool us. sorry if i raise too many questions, but your answers kinda determine me to continue to ask, haha. i must say, as the others also noticed, the answers are very clear, and cut through alot of confusion. that, in turn, has the effect of putting less and less time into things that haven't any positive outcome, and leaves more and more time to experience and enjoy everyday life, as deliciously complicated as it is. for which i am very thankful.

so. i think we can agree on the fact that for most of the neigong practitioners, at some point it becomes pretty obvious that the ultimate purpose of the training has to do with karma, transcendence, and afterlife. it's pretty clear that they can't count on qigong for that, as all bodily related energies will vanish as soon as their container withers and dies. at what stage during a neigong practitioners training is he able to take with him the fruits of his training into the afterlife. do the chords of karma need to be severed before that? this is an open question, feel free to respond if you feel so. thanks! E.

QD, I must say i admire your persistance in interpreting ancient practices by use of modern science. My advice (if you feel i'm worthy of giving you one), is to think of your knowledge as flowers that you are trying to plant: Just posting ideas without considering the people's feedback is just like throwing the flowers carelessly around, without preparing the ground, without watering them etc. It's precisely because these ideas are so important to you, that you should try to make the minds of the people receptive to them. Otherwise it's just a waste of time from your part. 而且他们会看不起你. I'd like to quote the words of a Chinese Taiji Master: "Make one thousand friends, but not one single enemy". Good luck E.

so, if my understanding is correct, the neigong energy can be used for various purposes, meanwhile qigong energy focuses on health. to your knowledge, to what other purposes, other than martial, can real neigong energy be used for. it kind of makes sense that nowadays the focus on martial goals should not be as important as in the past. which means today most practitioners use it for other practical purpose. how can that be done specifically? does it happen by itself as the amount of energy grows, or does intent, yi, play an active part. just share what you can. thanks! E.

Hello YM, could you elaborate a bit on the difference between qigong and neigong? I know qigong is quite a modern term, and these kind of practices were once gathered under the umbrella-term yangsheng. As such, it seems most of them are part of China's popular cultural heritage, however we sometimes see people mentioning various forms of qigong taught in monasteries and temples in Asia. I must say that the subject seems a bit fuzzy. Furthermore, do qigong and neigong complement? Probably most of us have their own ideas about the subject... just curious about a traditional perspective. Thanks! E.

my suggestion is the mods should actually ban members that show obvious signs of suffering from various types of psychosis from this forum, on account that -their activity here is not only disturbing other people, -but is extremely detrimental to themselves, -as is highly addictive to such individuals ~ as we see the case with tulku. we may hope that their problem can be adressed with some form of collective unprofessional counseling, however we should be realistic that it's hardly the case. some of them are in dire need of medical therapy. of course this can rank to new forms of moderator abuse and controverse about the real medical issues at hand. however i feel it's a responsible thing to do, therefore at least worth mentioning and/or discussing. after all, we're discussing lives here ~ see posts about suicide and whatnot. thanks.

to the original poster: i think you're gonna give up eventually, and blame everything on satan. and speak to the preacher about all the lost souls on the taobusm. i'm not underestimating you, i'm just aware of the potency of religious indoctrination. it's sad, we are helpless victims, they start brainwashing us as soon as we are able to say 'mama'. it's a LOT of garbage to process, and you'd really need a strong motivation to do that. apparently you don't have one, not yet. i still have to say... props to Seth, i have the same feelings. and i can understand his reaction.