gossamer

I've hurt people here, and made some others angry. This won't make much difference now, but Mak Tin Si, I'M really sorry. I honestly have been 'shaken down' (demanded money from) by churchianity. I truly do NOT understand the Chinese system of paying money for spirituality. It reminds me of preachers begging (demanding) for money. I'm sorry if that disturbs anyone. But it's the truth. I really mean what I say about compassion. I best leave until I get it learned. For those I hurt besides Mak Tin Si, I'm sorry to you too. For those who are mad, I understand. I've really enjoyed my time here, and my thanks to Sean for running a great forum. To my friend Stigwerd, I'll miss you as I said. To Ya mu, I'm sorry that I didn't get to know you better. Please forgive me for being an ass, I'm sorry. gossamer

Friends in Dao, I opened the forum this morning and there were TWELVE (12) POSTS by Mak Tin Si. This is basically SPAM, with someone trying to SELL his lineage for $312.00. Believe me, I know. If someone was spamming the forum with pornography, or automobile ads, we'd ask for em' to be kicked off. Or at the very least, to be shut up. 12 posts, in one period, my opinion, is excessive. I know that I've been arguing for the NOT paying for initiation position. But this is much deeper than that. This is about somebody that's trying desperately to SELL SOMETHING here. Does it really matter WHAT it is to you? And at the same time, I'm all for open and free speech here on the forum. But most of this is ABOUT MAKING MONEY. It's NOT really about sharing Dao/Tao, it's about SELLING A TRADITION. Please, please could we not find a way to ask politely for some of this SPAM to begin to wind down? And for those of you who need it, maybe you and Mak Sin Ti could establish a PM relationship, and carry on from there. If someone is spamming the forum, which I feel is happening, maybe it's time to at least ASK for it to cease, or maybe to ask for three or four posts a day, instead of *12*, and the day is still young, here in North America. Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I would enjoy hearing ANY feedback about this subject. Peace, gossamer

Laozi (or Lao tzu) "Channeled" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF33Nzjnho4 Is it REAL?

Funny. All that I was saying is take a look at this craziness. Come on, do you actually believe that I think that she's "channeling" Laozi?? I said that last night that 98% of "channeling" is bogus. I mean't what I said. Read my post. gossamer

If Dao is: "about all things being equal" Then the "I'll teach you for so much money" would not be there. Would it? The (so-called) Master would already KNOW (if he's THAT good!) what the student's situation was, money wise, and every thing ELSE, about a student. Wouldn't he??? And then, he would NOT ask for $312.00, when the student makes less then $600.00 per month! OR he'd be willing to let the student PAY IT OUT OVER TIME. Would he not? But "all things are NOT equal", he's the "Master", and your just the STUDENT. I never EVER heard anyone ask a dime, from ANYONE ELSE on any Philosophical Daoist list that I've been on. I'm simply astounded that Religious Daoism is so wound up with money, and then paying so much! There is NOTHING "equal" about such a system. It's just more religious bullshit. gossamer

I've thought a lot today about what Dao means to me. I don't wanna be "an immortal". I don't wanna live 300 years (or however many years), or NEVER die. All those whom you LOVE, would all be gone, and there you'd be alive, but ALONE. I don't care about magic. Been there, done that. Don't need to do it again. Here's what I'd like to get out of knowing Dao. I'd like to grow more compassionate, and open my heart to those whom I love, and perhaps learn to deal better, with those whom I DON'T love. I'd like to grow nearer to nature, and it's cycles. To flow more in tune with it. I'd like to learn to refine my empathy, to where what I 'feel' does not hurt so badly. And I'd like to help those more, who are willing to let me help them. And when it's time, I'd like to die "a good death", as the Native peoples say. You know, I've seen very little compassion from the various religions. Christianity is perhaps the worst, the Christian Quakers can be compassionate, but of all the churches that I've attended, and Christians that I've known, most of them are piss poor at real compassion. I've associated with, and been initiated into 3 different kinds of (so-called) "wicca" and old Traditional witchcraft, and one kind of Druidism, and most of them are worse then the Christians at compassion. 3 things people are generally looking for there: Money, sex or power (not necessarily in that particular order). While I still love sex , money or "power", don't do a lot for me. And I could live without them both. I've hung out with various "New Age" types, most of them were into channeling spirits, or 'working' with quartz crystals, and that kind of stuff. Ditto for compassion with them too. Same story, different cult. lol Someone last evening said something to the effect "if you consider yourself a Daoist". You know, I've read (and continue to read) the Dao de Jing (Tao te Ching) a lot, but I don't think that that qualifies me as "a Daoist". I'm not looking for another label, I'm looking to become the things that I described above, pretty simple really. As to all of the pay to be taught Daoism thing, I can understand what you all are saying, and I agree that teachers need money too, so if it feels RIGHT to you, by all means, PAY TO BE TAUGHT. A long time ago, I used to know a guy who was taught Irish "Witta" (funny, I just love [NOT!] all of these etymologically incorrect and stupid titles), or 'Wisdom Working', by a member of his family. He was a pretty bright guy, and really seemed to know some (maybe a lot) of the real Irish 'Old Ways', but he begin to run advertisements in 'Circle Network News', as it was known in those days, the largest and most widespread pagan newsletter in North America, SELLING his lineage and initiation, into Irish Wisdom. The old gods tolerated this for a short while, and finally just "shut down" ALL of his magical, and teaching ability. This was plainly done by spiritual forces, that reached across the Atlantic Ocean from his Ancestors (and those also in the Other World) back in Ireland. That was ALL that I ever really needed to see, to learn a deep, and a now, deeply ingrained lesson. But maybe things are different in Religious Daoism. But I remember this spiritual lesson quite vividly. And I intend to listen to my HEART, concerning all of this 'pay to be taught' idea. The Dalai Lama said: "If you want OTHERS to be happy, practice compassion. If YOU want to be happy, practice compassion." That's what I WANT. There's so many people whom I've not had a chance to 'speak' with here, but of those whom I have had a chance to share with I want to thank both Stigwerd, and Ya Mu for opening their hearts to me. I appreciate it, and I hope that my openness and honesty was reciprocal with you both. I hope that my position on paying to be taught and being initiated, is now clear. I don't know how to say it any better, then to tell it in story form. The spiritual things that I'm looking for are not way lofty, or "heavenly", but really quite human, and down to earth. I also still maintain that Laozi charged NO ONE, money for his teachings. But whatever. If you believe that he DID, good for you! Peace, gossamer

$312.00 "But this alone might be worth the price of admission (free)"

Unless you actually have a time machine (which I doubt), WHO told you all of this? Were you THERE to see it happen? Did you "channel" this from the gods? And I must say, I've seen A LOT of "channeling", and probably 98% of it is bogus. What did Laozi tell us that his Great Treasures were? Peace, gossamer

Yes, this IS what I'm saying. If someone else wishes to pay $312.00 for his lineage, be my guest. NO problems. But I DO have a problem with someone trying to SELL his lineage/tradition through writing posts here on the forum. I mean NO dis- "respect" what so ever. Look, if you guys wanna pay for anything, it's NOT my business. But when someone is *spamming* the forum, so I've gotta read it too, that IS my business. And besides, it's actually hard to find other NEW posts when Mak Tin Si, is all I see (lol). Peace, gossamer

Dear Sean, I liked "Harold Roth, Nei Yeh--best book to start", started by Brian L. Kennedy. In fact, I liked it so much that I copied part of it. Thanks for hosting such a GREAT forum! Peace, gossamer

Dear Stigwerd, I was not referring to you!! Check your PM box. Peace, gossamer

OK, here's the deal. For someone to ask a $300.00 "Donation" to "BECOME" a Daoist , is WRONG . I have no problem paying for talismans or things like that, or for books, or training materials, which cost the teacher money, but for "transferring a lineage" this CANNOT BE BOUGHT, no matter what anyone tells you. And if it CAN be bought, how much is it REALLY WORTH? It's like I paid for every copy of the DDJ (TTC) that I have, except the few that I downloaded off the internet, and even then, I paid for paper and ink and electricity to run the computer and copier. I have no problem paying for materials or books, or any of that. But much of Daoism can be learned from nature. I don't necessarily equate nature with the Great Dao, yes, it is that, but it's even more than that, more like our modern model of "The Force", in the 'Star Wars' movies. But I'm firmly OPPOSED to charging money for teaching spirituality . Call it "donations", or whatever you will, it's still charging money for teaching Dao. This is WRONG, and if you think that you can BUY the Dao, then you are as lost to the Dark side of 'The Force' as Vader was in the 'Star Wars' movies. There are other ways to support a Temple, or a place of teaching. Can you BUY nature? Yes, you can buy a great vacation, to a great place, but what you take from that place, is up to you, and Dao. Nature is a great teacher, the greatest teacher of all. Many years ago, I was involved in the Western Magical Tradition, all of this selling the teachings went on there too. It was WRONG then, and it's WRONG now, here with trying to sell Dao. Only a fool would believe that the Great Dao could be marketed, and SOLD. Again, paying for talismans or books, or teaching materials, or things of that nature, I have no problems with. But anything beyond that, I have very serious reservations about, even if you call it "donations". Peace, gossamer

In my *opinion* when one makes less then $600.00 per month, to spend $312.00 for "a donation" (Gee, I've heard THAT ONE before in Christianity), IS EXORBITANT. This is something that is paid up front, from what I understand. On the other hand, to pay $300.00 out over several YEARS, sounds very reasonable to me. Especially considering if this is for books, and study materials. Look, if someone else wants to PAY for what amounts to initiation, go ahead. Personally, I feel that that's wrong. It may not be wrong for YOU, it's only wrong for ME. I felt that it was wrong in the Western Magical Tradition, and I feel that it's wrong to SELL the WAY. The Great Dao, is NOT for sale at ANY PRICE! If that doesn't work for you, that's kool. Peace upon you all, gossamer P.S I'm NOT "mad". I think paying for a transmission of a lineage is WRONG. I would STILL think this, if I made $.600.00 A WEEK. This is NOT ABOUT MONEY, it's about "frugality", as Laozi said. Do you HONESTLY think that Laozi charged the Gatekeeper for his DDJ (TTC) 'transmission'????? Really, do you think THAT?

"When the situation is hopeless, there's NOTHING to worry about!" From: Edward Abbey--'The Monkey Wrench Gang'

Dear FET, You know, if that's what you got from my posts, you need to read them again. For a "Master" to sell a lineage is wrong, no matter HOW you slice it! I only make slightly below $600.00 per month. Where is $312.00 gonna come from, out of THAT? Go figure (literally). Peace, gossamer

Dear Ya Mu, I can feel your vibes and your sincerity. I'm not criticizing your position, honestly. I understand. I *truly* understand. So, I'll ask you this. (Different subject). Laozi and the purple cloud, and it's relationship to the purple bubble, I already know the answer. Laozi is worshipped by the Religious Daoist's. So, in your opinion, Laozi is teaching (from the Other Side), and he's the greatest of the Immortals?? Does this make (or equate) him to "a god"? That's a pretty loaded question here in the West, as you know. I prefer to think of him kind of more like Yoda, or Obi Wan Kenobi, "dead", but yet ever ALIVE! I understand your feelings about charging for classes. I know you don't know me, and I'm not bragging, but I've been a kind of empath for a long time. As Princess Laia said: "I can FEEL IT". Thanks for the book offer.....most kind. (deep bow) Peace, gossamer

I'm looking for any Linux (especially Ubuntu user's) user's here on the forum. Here's the problem, somebody else has long distance administrator (sudo) control rights on my computer. I need a Linux sudo user 'formula' or command to WIPE OUT the complete hard drive, and over ride the person who has control of my computer. I've tried to wipe the hard drive using a sudo command, but it always ends up saying "PERMISSION DENIED". I would go to a Linux forum, but they just think that anyone who uses Ubuntu CAN'T be hacked. And they make fun of anyone who claims that Ubuntu can be pierced from the outside (from someone on the internet). Funny. lol If you know Linux, and you know more than I about getting around a sudo command somehow, I'd love to talk to you. Thanks a lot. gossamer

You know some of you may remember my post about a month, or a month and a half ago, about being stalked here on the net. Let's just say, for argument's sake, that someone is attacking you in your dreams. I need a really GOOD defensive technique to "guard" my dreams from intrusion. I don't necessarily wanna attack this other person magically, I just wanna build "a psychic wall". This is a matter of some urgency, as I need all the solid, productive sleep that I can get. I'm sure that there must be somebody here, who has a few ideas as to just how to do this. Be aware that the stalker is reading here too, and is a part of this forum, in fact. So, it would need to work whether he reads it or not. Thanks a lot for your help. Peace, gossamer

Dear Ya Mu, Yes, I did, and I slept very soundly through the night. The purple bubble reminded me of the purple cloud above Laozi as he was riding his yak, through the mountains. Are the two related? Thanks very much for your help! In Dao, gossamer "Did you try what I suggested last night? Were you able to quiet your mind before sleep? Did you manifest your purple bubble? Did you ask the Light for help in doing so? If so, did it make any difference in your dreams?"

Dear Ya Mu, You said: "SO, do you go to that job you now have and work free? Or do you expect renumeration that reflects the fact that you yourself paid out big bucks to learn your skill? What if I sat here and told you that was morally wrong for you to make so much money and that you should work for only room and board. After all, there are plenty of folks out there who have no money at all. So, are you being immoral? The only example I can give, as far as a teacher goes, is my own. Besides that $100,000+ basic education, which significantly helps in my being a teacher, I have another (I-just-don't want-to-add-it-up-because-it-is-so-much-I-may-have-a-heart-attack-if-I-do) invested in my Taoist medicine and medical qigong training. Suffice to say I mortgaged two houses to the hilt and ended up having to sell them in order to pay my training costs. And before you say but you are talking about medical qigong and not spiritual training let me assure you that this training is the ESSENCE of spiritual training. So, I am a teacher and a healer. I guess you are going to insist that I am not moral by charging a fee for my training students? Not moral for charging a fee for my healing? If you really think that, why don't you correct the situation and make me a moral person by setting me up with a trust fund so I can do this for free." I used to drive trucks and buses for a living. I am now disabled, and live on around $600.00 per month, Social Security Disability. My wife works, or we'd be in BIG TROUBLE financially. I graduated from high school, and had a small amount of college, I'm 57 years old. Now on to answering your questions. I was recently offered a lineage of Daoism for the amount of money that I mentioned in my last post. No, I think that charging for Daoist medicine, is just like charging for Western medicine, and I'm good with that. And with study materials, books and other course materials, yes, I totally understand that. I'm strictly saying to offer a lineage for sale (yeah I'm gonna use big letters again, so get over it), is WRONG, both spiritually and morally. That's it, that's all I'm saying. You know, Laozi did not say exactly what Jesus said: "Freely you were given, now freely give". But Dao is very deep, and I think that probably 90% of it can be learned directly from nature. But I have a *spiritual* problem with ANY "Master" who would sell his or her lineage. And not just because I'm poor do I feel this. This is wrong spiritually. It would gag Laozi to see his present "disciples", and because the world has a trend, do we who follow Dao, become like the world? It's currently fashionable for many nations to have nuclear "weapons", but is it morally or spiritually correct, to do so??? You already know the answer to this question. I really wanna encourage you to READ this book: http://www.amazon.com/Road-Heaven-Encounte...9008&sr=1-2 Maybe this great Zen Buddhist & Daoist, can make clear, what I cannot. The greatest followers of Dao in this book, were very simple hermits who lived high up in the Chungnan Mts. far away from people and (so-called) "civilization". These people were dirt poor, and lived on very, very little. I finally understand why Laozi said that being frugal was one of his great treasures. This might in fact, nearly equate with the "freely you were given, now freely give" message. It's exactly the SAME message clothed in different words. Thank you for this insight, into Laozi's teachings. I've pondered that saying for a long while, and I finally understand it now! Peace, gossamer

Live in the NOW.

Sorry if I "shouted", I was merely trying to make a point. And Peace be upon you all, but I think that all three of you are *wrong*. Dao Zhen, so let me get this straight from you. You are comfortable with a teacher *SELLING* his or her lineage to you?? Is this what you are saying? If the teacher says "I'll sell you my teachings, and make you a Daoist, for $312.00". Your absolutely comfortable with that, morally?? That surprises me about you, if your answer is "Yes". And if your answer is "Yes", what of those who DON'T have the $312.00, but are deeply devoted to Dao, perhaps more so then some of those who CAN afford to pay $312.00? What about them? Peace, gossamer

We have a saying here in the West. "Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one" . Never-the-less, I would still ask you to respect us here, as we try to learn to respect others, who are perhaps different then us. The Dao is BEYOND language. gossamer