lienshan

Let's continue the who is parroting who here These two last lines occur too in Shuo Yuan's collection of confucian texts no. 24 I haven't read/translated no. 24 yet, but have looked at Shuo Yuan's confucian text no. 17 Only difference is that it begins with 天地 'heaven earth' instead of 天道 'heaven tao' The most interesting passage in my way of rough translation: heaven and earth have no preference forever along with the good man heaven and tao have preference did not let Yao survive did not let Jie be murdered (Yao was a pre-Xiadynasty SageKing and Jie the last ShangTyrant commiting suicide) 善人 'good man' is explained in this Legge translated Mengzi text

天道 without 之 occurs in your new chapter 79 too Henricks-translated 'the way of heaven'? 天道 without 之 is explained in 'Questions of Duke Ai' to Confucius (no. 12) : The duke said: 'I venture to ask what it is that the superior man values in the way of Heaven?' Confucius replied: 'He values its unceasingness. There is, for instance, the succession and sequence of the sun and moon from the east and west - that is the way of Heaven. There is the long continuance of its progress without interruption - that is the way of Heaven. There is its making all things complete without doing anything - that is the way of Heaven. There is their brilliancy when they have been completed - that is the way of Heaven.'

Here's another quote from the Mawangdui text 'Yi Zhi Yi' that the scholars agree is a confucian text: 是以立天之道曰陰與陽 立地之道曰柔與剛 立人之道曰仁與義 With this view they exhibited (in them) the way of heaven, calling (the lines) yin and yang; the way of earth, calling (them) the weak and the strong; and the way of men, under the names of benevolence and righteousness. (Legge translation) 天之道 the way of heaven 地之道 the way of earth 人之道 the way of men When Laozi used terms like above was it because he converted to confucianism here in chapter 77 Or did he quote these confucian terms in order to question them here in chapter 77

Wellcome QiLearning

Wellcome to the share and learn paradise

My Shuo Gua source with chinese text and Legge translation The Bagua is described in the sections 3 to 18 The two sections 5-6 are describing the Later Heaven Bagua (Hou Tian Bagua) sequence: thunder-wind-fire-earth-marsh-heaven-water-mountain seen from the inside The section 3 belongs as earlier mentioned to the confucian Xi Ci II (6th wing) This 'confucian BaGua' has the sequence: heaven-mountain-thunder-water-earth-marsh-wind-fire The sections 7-18 are describing the Former Heaven BaGua (Xian Tian bagua) sequence: heaven-thunder-water-mountain-earth-wind-fire-marsh seen from the inside clockwise Note: thunder and wind are reversed in the famous but much later Shao Yong BaGua The section 4 is like 7-18 but the sequence is seen from the outside counterclockwise thunder-water-mountain-heaven-wind-fire-marsh-earth

天者: a heavenly person, someone who practices to principles of Heaven which is heaven (small h)

It's hard to see the thought when Robert Henricks translates the Mawangdui line: Now, who is able to have a surplus and use it to offer to Heaven? Clearly, it's only the one who possesses the Way. The corresponding chinese text has the 乎 '?' not in the middle but at the end: 余夫孰能又余而以取奉於天之唯又者乎 My own translation of this single Mawangdui rethorical question: I and men which one is able to have an additional I similar to a received gift from the Heaven and only addition the Tao?

The term 人之道 (Man his Tao) doesn't occur in Zhuangzi but 聖人之道 (Sage his Tao) 9 times. The terms 人之道 (Man his Tao) and 天之道 (Heaven its Tao) occur in two confucian texts: Mengzi, Li Lou I: 天之道也 思誠者 人之道也 Therefore, sincerity is the way of Heaven. To think how to be sincere is the way of man. Li Ji, Zhong Yong: 誠者 天之道也 誠之者 人之道也 Sincerity is the way of Heaven. The attainment of sincerity is the way of men. (James Legge translations) Tao of Man and Tao of Heaven are Tao of something objective. Tao of Sage is Tao of something subjective, because a Sage isn't something objective. A man / woman is objective, but what makes the person a Sage is something subjective.

The three last lines of Henricks translation is the subjective pointe of this chapter: Therefore the Sage take actions but does not possess them; Accomplishes his tasks but does not dwell on them. Like this, is his desire not to make a display of his worthiness. ChiDragon's native scholar misses the pointe because he doesn't read 之 the classical way and therefore can't understand how the three lines complement the first lines

What's described is objective and concrete! My booooring explanation: 天之道 (Heaven its Tao) 人之道 (Man his Tao) The personal pronoun 之 marked in classical chinese the following character as an objective noun. The Tao described in the beginning of this chapter is therefore the confucian Tao of Heaven producing rain growing the plants and the Man's taxcollecters knock at the doors after harvest. But are they able to collect abstract and indescribable Tao? No, and that's why the sage grow subjective Tao ... which never is preceeded by a 之 in the chapters I've read untill now.

Is it intelligent to seek truth Wellcome on board

Men do usual suffer more than women suffer when catching the flu I wish you a quick recovery

It's to me much a matter of 'copyrights'! If I have anything to say of my own, then I write what I want in a way, so everyone reading is not in doubt, that it's my opinion without any authority than the logic of what's written - or the lack But that is ofcourse very difficult when translating; e.g. Shuo Kua section 3: 天地定位 Heaven and Earth establish the direction. 山澤通氣 Mountain and Marsh share Qi. 雷風相薄 Thunder and Wind together is 'a forrest'. 水火相射 Water and Fire together is 'bow and arrow'. 八封相錯 Eight trigrams together is 'crooked'. 數往者順 To count the past makes sense. 知來者逆 To know the future makes nonsense. 是故逆數也 Therefore the counting of nonsense! e.g. how to translate 錯 which means both 'crooked/bend' and 'a mistake'? The first possibility indicates a circle and the latter excludes a circle? That's why I regard 'Yin Style BaGua' more like a steal than an evolution. It looks like the one with the BaGua 'copyrights' is Shao Yong.

Let's examine the logic of al.'s 'Yin Style BaGua' compared to the four Ogdoad powers: Opening - Closing = Directionless? Gathering - Dispersing = Infinity? Raising - Lowering = Darkness? Exiting - Entering = Primeval Waters? The above is my picks when relating one Yin Style Qi pair to one Ogdoad 'pre-creation element'. My main problem was to find a Qi pair relating to 'Darkness'

Here's an alternative translation: 天地定位 Heaven and Earth establish the direction. 山澤通氣 Mountain and Marsh reach Qi. 雷風相薄 Thunder and Wind are together thin. 水火相射 Water and Fire are together spread out. Heaven and Earth establish the counterclockwise direction (from Heaven to Earth). Qi in line two can be read as the trigrams Water + Heaven (inside Mountain and Marsh). 'together thin' can be understood as 'close together'. 'spread out' can be understood as 'most far away / opposite). That'll say the Later Heaven Bagua but seen from the outside!

No, it's only the BaGua stuff that means something to most taoists.

I did a little research and arrived at: A russian sinolog Iulian K. Shchutsskii claimed 100 years ago, that the first three sections of Shuo Gua (the 8th wing) belonged to Xi Ci part II (the 6th wing) which was confirmed by the exavacation of the Mawangdui I Ching version: There was a commentary named Yi Zhi Yi containing Shuo Gua's first three sections and the sections 5-8 of Xi Ci part II. That'll say the later heaven trigram sequence of Shuo Gua section 4-11 and the section 3 text I have quoted ealier in this thread come from two different sources. The Xi Ci II section 5-8 text is a confucian text with more sentences preceeded by the typical "The Master said:" so the trigram sequence of Shuo Gua section 3 is therefore too seen from a confucian point of view. The first four lines in the Mawangdui version: 天地定位 Heaven and Earth establish the direction. 山澤通氣 Mountain and Marsh reach Qi. 雷風相薄 Thunder and Wind are both hidden. 水火相射 Water and Fire are both emitted. The first trigram in the lines are Father, youngest son, eldest son, middle son. The last trigram in the lines are Mother, youngest daughter, eldest daughter, middle daughter. The family-order looks strange to me if it is meant to express a confucian point of view?

What's the opposite of 'wrong manipulation'

I think that this PDF link tells the story of the Bagua. (It's about 8 MB and takes a couple of minutes to upload)

I'm used to the very patchy historical record from Ancient China so no problem The first historical record of the Ogdoad is the coffin text 76 without Amun/Amaunet! Instead are Tenem/Temenet who represent something that has no valid english word: 'directionlessness' that'll say no inside/outside, no above/below, no left/right, etc. The four Ogdoad pairs are describing the oneness of pre-creation using four nouns: primeval waters, infiniteness, directionlessness, darkness. Maybe the four nouns of pairs above match the four pairs of BaGua symbols I read 'primeval waters' as 'only one kind of matter' maybe equal to the trigrams Earth/Heaven? 'directionlessness' is maybe equal to the trigrams Water/Fire that look alike when turned upsidedown? 'darkness' seems to fit well with the two earthly trigrams March/Mountain? 'infiniteness' could fit with the two heavenly trigrams Wind/Thunder?

Eva Wong's date 3000 BC is dating Yu the Great and chinese writing wasn't invented yet. The numbers were invented, so writing/reading was at that time a matter of numerology. That's why I read/interpret the eight (even) tortoiseshells as a 'taoist' symbol. Odd numbers were masculine; nine was both in Egypt and China the male ruler's symbol. The trigrams and hexagrams were also originally made of numbers: (the Shang number 5 looks like a butterfly) I've looked at the canopic Jars but they seem to be a private Pharao 4. Dyn. invention.

Taoist shamanism is at least earlier than 6000 BC according to the exavacations in Jiahu: More graves contained shamans without skulls but with a circle of eight tortoise shells instead of the head. Why? Sounds strange to me that taoists worshipping nature worship an unnatural layout of the Bagua?