lienshan

what a pity a new plan might split Taoist discussion into Tao discussion and Te discussion?

We danes have no problems with 德(Te) It's like dao a chinese character with primary 4 meanings depending on the negative: bu dao = not walking = dao is defined as a "subjective" verb or adjective fu dao = not walked = dao is defined as an "objective" verb or adjective wu dao = not a walk = dao is defined as a "subjective" noun fei dao = not a way = dao is defined as an "objective" noun Without a negative is dao being a noun or a not noun defined by the wordorder rules and with a personal pronoun means "objective" and without means "subjective". Insert 德(Te) in the scheme and your problem disappears

I agree The first part reminds of chapter 37 and the last line points to chapter 66. I had the feeling of reading a not yet finished manuscript when translating. The chapter is a later addition to the Guodian bundle A, because there is a wide space preceeding the chapter and it ends without no following chapter. Chapter 32 is too brushed by another person than the preceeding chapter 2.

The Guodian chapter 32 The regularity of a walk has no name. The micro-heaven of a simple fly is not a courageous servant of the earth. Is an officeholder comparable to the king of a marquis? Is the mutual combination of heaven and earth going to begin honoring everything? The people exceeding sweet dew cannot give order to it and so to themselves equally. The establishment of the first has a name and "already existing" is the name too? This does also start a blockage of knowledge of the blockage of knowledge, and is thus not dangerous to for example the existing world of a walk. A similarity is the contact of a small valley with the river and the sea. The most important line is: The establishment of the first has a name and "already existing" is the name too? When read as a commentary to these four Da Yi Sheng Shui lines: What's heaven and earth is the birth of the Great One. Below the soil is similar to the word earth. Above the air is similar to the word heaven. Dao is also their character; Early Dawn is their name. The establishment of the first has the name Great One and "already existing" is the name too Early Dawn (the character dao) dao seems manifested according to the Great One creators

Da Yi Sheng Shui was bound, physical attached, to the Guodian Dao De Jing version. That's why I'm interested in exploring the connection of the two texts. Da Yi Sheng Shui has been translated by communist and non-daoist scholars, whom didn't know, what they were translating, and knew nothing about divination. So let's have a "daoist" discussion about if or how the two text are connected? Da Yi Sheng Shui related lines: The can be a lump of earth and overflowing causes the envy-made Classic of everything. To administer heaven isn't enough because: The lowest height of west and north acts powerful. Earth and heaven are not enough: The highest low of east and south acts powerful. The moreover surplus from the lowest of the not enough from what's highest is the moreover surplus from the highest of the not enough from what's lowest. Try identify the two in bold in the trigram scheme (north is below in China)? My own answer was like yours, but then I realized, that "west and north" and "east and south" are connecting the trigram "Heaven" to either "Water" or "Fire" and likewise the trigram "Earth" to either "Water" or "Fire". That'll say, the two powerful trigrams are "Water" and "Fire"! The reason why may be that the trigramcircle can be viewed from the inside and the outside. The difference is, that only "Water" and "Fire" change their positions in the sequence! (try write the eight trigrams in a row on a paper, and then turn the paper upsidedown) "Water" and "Fire" are too mentioned at last outside their position in Shuo Gua §3: (The symbols of) heaven and earth received their determinate positions; (those for) mountains and collections of water interchanged their influences; (those for) thunder and wind excited each other the more; and (those for) water and fire did each other no harm. (Then) among these eight symbols there was a mutual communication. The numbering of the past is a natural process.; the knowledge of the coming is anticipation. Therefore in the Yi we have (both) anticipation (and the natural process). http://ctext.org/book-of-changes/shuo-gua

I answered, but he didn't understand my answer: is that my problem? The 6th and first lines of a nuclear hexagram are the origin of TaiSui. Above is Jupiter (the time) and below is the false star (the end). There are four variations decided by the consistence of water.

Hi penfold ... here are my five pennies to the popular subject of your thread: wu wei compared to not wu wei is like a walk compared to a way

The Guodian chapter 16 Everything do shoulder to shoulder begin to sit down waiting for to return, having defended the center surefooted, when reaching the zenith of emptiness. Heaven and Tao are colleagues. Colleagues do individually return to their bases. A humoristic but too deep commentary to these Ta Yi Sheng Shui lines: Below the soil is similar to the word earth. Above the air is similar to the word heaven. Tao is also their character; Early Dawn is their name. Why Tao follows what's duty surely rely on their name. Therefore is the duty completed and itself prolonged.

故 - Gu - therefore (preposition) 德 - De - virtue (noun) 交 - Jiao - exchange (noun) 歸 - Gui - return (verb) 焉 - Yan - (suffix -able) Therefore, the exchange of virtue is returnable. Isn't "truly De in action" a relationship between two human beings?

The non-spirituality of his ghost isn't "its ghost isn't spiritual". It is "his spirit doesn't wound a man"; It isn't "its spirit doesn't wound the man". I read Laozi's arguement concerning ghosts this way: The ghost of the small fish being fryed doesn't harm the cook. One cannot know, whether the ghost of a fryed small fish is spiritual or not? But one knows, that one's own spirit doesn't harm a man. That'll say the spirit of a fryed small fish harms as much as the ghost of a human.

Ruling the great nation is like frying a small fish. Use this way to reach the world. The non-spirituality of his ghost isn't its ghost isn't spiritual. It is "his spirit doesn't wound a man"; It isn't "its spirit doesn't wound the man". A sage and a man add no wound. The pair of men aren't reciprocally wounded. Therefore is virtuous submission returnable. As long as they say that I (but not my translation) am silly Laozi is really hard to figure out when reading the exavacated texts! sheng ren means "a sage" but a ye character marks the two characters as a subject noun clause, that'll say "a sage and a man" is the subject, which is confirmed by liang (a pair) in the following line.

Hi realfastcat Interests: true nature Look foreward to read your definition ... wellcome

I agree so here is a Mawangdui translation of the first lines: Ruling the great nation is like frying a small fish. Use this way to reach the world. The non-spirituality of his ghost isn't its ghost isn't spiritual. It is "his spirit doesn't wound a man"; It isn't "its spirit doesn't wound the man". Notes: line 2: yi (use) omits zhi (this) that marks dao as the noun way here. line 3: the line ends with a ye marking "His ghost not spiritual" as a subject noun phrase. line 3: qi marks gui as a noun and bu marks shen as an adjective. line 4: X ye fei Y ye means like in line 1+2 of chapter One: It is X; It is not Y line 4: qi marks shen as a noun. I read the lines as comparing the spirit and the ghost of a human to those of a fish.

The 16 nuclear hexagrams relate to the 64 hexagrams positions by four variations of WATER! The related Da Yi Sheng Shui text lines: The return of the four seasons mutually assist by completing cold and heat. The return of cold and heat mutually assist by completing damp and fluid. The return of damp and heat mutually assist by completing time and end. Therefore what's time is the birth of damp and fluid. What's damp and fluid is the birth of cold and heat. What's cold and heat and what's the four seasons are the birth of yin and yang. cold means "ice" that'll say crystalized water below relating to the winter season. heat means "vapor" that'll say vapored water above relating to the summer season. damp means "damp" that'll say moisted water above relating to the autumn season. fluid means "fluid" that'll say fluid water below relating to the spring season. The first line and the sixth topline of a hexagram do not belong to the nuclear hexagram. These two lines represent four possibilities: whole/whole, broken/broken, whole/broken, broken/whole, corresponding to the four variations of water. Which possibility is which variation? Soil and not Water is thus equal to the trigram Kan according to Da Yi Sheng Shui! This explains a difference between the Received Shuo Gua and the Mawangdui Shuo Gua: Kan and Li don't harm each other (the Received version; Kan = Soil and Li = Air) Kan and Li do harm each other (the Mawangdui version; Kan = Water and Li = Fire) The oracle described in Da Yi Sheng Shui is named "the envymade Classic of Everything". I read "envymade" as saying, that it's made like the Zhouyi, that it uses the 64 hexagrams, but that it differs from the Zhouyi concerning how to make a reading of a hexagram. The oracle described in Da Yi Sheng Shui must be the socalled Gui Cang oracle Some fragmentory samples have been exavacated e.g. in Wang-jia-tai in the former Qin. Some scholars say (without proof), that it's the ancient Shang Dynasty Book of Change. Some of the hexagram names differ between the Zhouyi and Gui Cang, e.g. discussed here: http://zhouyi.sdu.edu.cn/english/newsxitong/selectedPapers/2006517175846.htm The most interesting is the name discussion of the hexagramnumbers 63 and 64 because they symbolize "insight" and "spirit" in my reading of Da Yi Sheng Shui: The return of damp and heat mutually assist by completing time and end. because "time" and "end" in the above textline might point to these two hexagrams? The Gui Cang hexagram 64 name is "juan" meaning "end" etc. etc. etc.

That Da Yi was mainstream Taoism 350 - 300 BC fits with that Da Yi Sheng Shui buried in Guodian 312 BC, and lost influence when Laozi's critique in Dao De Jing became known among the Huang Lao members, and ended up as a sect worshipping a god named Da Yi in early Han dynasty times. Your link to the Mawangdui painting looks most interesting. I look at four personifications (heaven, air, soil, earth) of the four hexagramlines 2-3-4-5, which make the nuclear hexagrams. I'm still not quite sure, which one of the persons who represents which one of the lines? The 64 hexagrams can be divided in four groups of 16 equal to Da Yi Sheng Shui's four seasons: The return of yin and yang mutually assist by completing the four seasons. The return of the four seasons mutually assist by completing cold and heat. What's cold and heat and what's the four seasons are the birth of yin and yang. This is why the Great One conceals physical water and moves physical seasons. The four season's 16 nuclear hexagrams can be reduced to these four nuclear hexagrams: Heaven hexagram 1 Earth hexagram 2 Already hexagram 63 Not yet hexagram 64 Relating to these Da Yi Sheng Shui lines (Already = "insight" and Not yet = "spirit"): The return of heaven and earth mutually assist by completing insight and spirit. The return of insight and spirit mutually assist by completing yin and yang. What's yin and yang is the birth of insight and spirit. What's insight and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth.

Maybe this hexagram is more illustrative: DA GUO (hex 28) I'm thinking of the socalled "nuclear trigrams" (Hu Ti) or "nuclear hexagrams" (Hu Gua). That'll say the lines 2-3-4 made the lower trigram and the lines 3-4-5 the upper trigram. They are according to Bradford Hartcher known since the fourth century BC. They were maybe a Huang Lao invention, if I read the Da Yi Sheng Shui text correct: The fifth line = Above the air is similar to the word heaven The fourth line = the air line The third line = the soil line The second line = Below the soil is similar to the word earth

Astronomy is a blind spot to me, so thanks for your great illustrative explanation I followed your advice and arrived at this explanation: To administer heaven isn't enough because: The lowest height of west and north acts powerful. The sun sets in west and north, that'll say, there's something below the soil. Earth and heaven are not enough: The highest low of east and south acts powerful. The sun rises in east and south, that'll say, there's something above the sun. The moreover surplus from the lowest of the not enough from what's highest is the moreover surplus from the highest of the not enough from what's lowest. The moreover surplus of below the soil is the sun. The moreover surplus of above the sun is the soil. Da Yi Sheng Shui seems to express a flat six layer view at the universe, expressed in the six lines structure of a hexagram: The fifth, the Son of Heaven's line The second, the Minister's line The fifth line = Above the air is similar to the word heaven The fourth line = the air line The third line = the soil line The second line = Below the soil is similar to the word earth But are both the sixth line above and the first line below symbolizing water?

To know, when enough is enough, is what I read in Dao De Jing. To have 1 girlfriend is enough

The hexagram means "Return" in the Zhouyi Book of Change, because the Zhou worshipped Heaven, and the first hexagram in their I Ching was the hexagram "Heaven": "Return" means, that the unbroken lines are waxing from below towards all unbroken The same hexagram meant "Beginning" in the former Shang dynasty Book of Change, because their first hexagram was "Earth": But what's most interesting are in my opinion the eight trigrams, because they are described in Da Yi Sheng Shui (the Great One generates water), that is one of the oldest known daoist scripts; if the Huang-Lao school was daoist? The can be a lump of earth and overflowing causes the envy-made Classic of everything. To administer heaven isn't enough because: The lowest height of west and north acts powerful. Earth and heaven are not enough: The highest low of east and south acts powerful. The moreover surplus from the lowest of the not enough from what's highest is the moreover surplus from the highest of the not enough from what's lowest. Try identify the two in bold in the trigram scheme (north is below in China)? The trigrams Kan "Water/Cold" and Li "Heat/Qi" are described: The return of cold and heat mutually assist by completing damp and fluid.

trigram EARTH (the receptive) trigram THUNDER (the arousing) The James Legge translation and the chinese text: http://ctext.org/book-of-changes/fu (The trigram representing) the earth and that for thunder in the midst of it form Fu. The ancient kings, in accordance with this, on the day. of the (winter) solstice, shut the gates of the passes (from one state to another), so that the travelling merchants could not (then) pursue their journeys, nor the princes go on with the inspection of their states.

"Water is real. To disregard a danger is foolish." I agree. I've kept the grammatical structure of of the 2 sentences in classical chinese. I read "a house" as an image meaning "a human body". I read "the body of a successful waterway" as an image of "the ability to swim". That'll say my reading of the two chapter 9 sentences put in my own words: What is most valuable not if but when flooding: A prayer performed in a righteonuos way? A lot of heavy gold and jade? The ability to swim? Those able to swim will maybe later say: My prayer helped me or My riches helped me . But after the flood, what do those not able to swim, the not-survivers, say?

I've ruined the translations of five concepts presented by all three of the start-off translators by asking two simple questions? Hey!, please be fair and ruin my translation with 1 or 2 questions? The disregardfulness of rising and flooding doesn't stop the torrent of water and the indefensibleness of riches doesn't overflow a house, that no one is able to guard. Self-confidence of helpful blessings is the mistake of self-disrespect like the body of a successful waterway is the way of a retired heaven. The wordorder of first line's first seven characters is strange (from a photograph of the slip): zhi er ying zhi bu bu ruo 植而盈之不不若 = 植而盈之不(不若) translated 植而盈之(不若)不 The two "bu bu" looks like a scribal mistake and one of them is omitted in the later versions, but Laozi used a special grammar rule known from e.g. Mencius: When "ruo" means "if" then is "ruo" treated adverbial e.g. negated by the negative "bu" and the position of "ruo" meaning "if" is not where it belongs, but in the next position! I've translated "bu ruo" (not if) as "disregardfulness", because it's a noun treated adverbial.

Good to see someone Earthbound here

Two of Henricks five conceps: 5. When gold and jade fill your chambers, 6. No one can safeguard them. Can I walk into Fort Knox and pick up all the gold I want? 7. Arrogance resulting from wealth and rank, 8. On its own brings disaster. Does arrogance not resulting from wealth and rang on its own not bring disaster?