lienshan

The context is in my way of reading this Da Yi Sheng Shui scheme: The Great One = The Mother and Union of everything heaven and earth = two independents insight and spirit yin and yang = two not completeable This inability to kill heaven and inability to bury earth is the inability to complete yin and yang. My way of understanding the symbols of Laozi's chapter five: insight = an empty sack spirit = a 7-holed flute Holy men not benevolence use common people to make strawdogs. means to me: That Laozi points at the lack of human's physical existence in the scheme. That not words but physical existing humans cause troubles to others. That "holy" is nothing but a word that the not holy use as a title. The number of people slaughtered in "holy" wars is uncountable.

The Guodian version has another character "guan" instead of "yue": http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=%E7%AE%A1 And the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary explanation of "guan" is "a 7-holed flute".

Henricks makes a logical mistake in his translation, when comparing a subject between two objects to another subject. Doing so is called comparing apples to pears in my native language. So Laozi is by logic comparing a subject between two objects to another subject between two other objects! Henricks subject translation of "tuo yue" as "a bellows" is therefore wrong. The two characters "tuo yue" represent two objects with an interval. A sack and a flute according to the dictionaires. "The interval between a sack and a flute" is ofcourse pure nonsense like "the interval between heaven and earth" is pure nonsense; that's the pointe! Referring to the Da Yi Sheng Shui nonsense: Heaven and earth are nominated side by side independently. Therefore perform their two boats in line not cultivated together.

Where's the verb of his socalled first line? And where's the logic of his translation? The Mawangdui chapter 5 The use of heavenly malevolence is everything made strawdogs. Holy men not benevolence use common people to make strawdogs. Is the interval between heaven and earth equal to between a sack and a flute? Emptiness and not boneless move and more and more sluice down. More than words count the impoverished comparable to the center. "tian di" means "heavenly" because the meaning "heaven and earth" would demand a "zhi" character! "di" functions like "-ly" in english. The second line has another structure, because "sheng" "holy" is an adjective.

The Guodian chapter 5 Is the interval between heaven and earth equal to between a sack and a flute? Emptiness and not boneless move and more and more sluice down. The flute is a seven-hole bone gudi-flute. (a human being has too seven holes) It symbolizes "sheng" (spirit) in the Da Yi Sheng Shui term "insight and spirit". It's "not boneless" because it's made of bone but it's without a sceleton. The related lines in Da Yi Sheng Shui: That the sage follows duty does also rely on its name. Therefore is the merit completed and himself not boned. The return of heaven and earth mutually assist by completing insight and spirit. What's insight and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth. The sack and emptiness symbolize the "insight" of the term. The related lines to "move" and "sluice down" are: This is why the Great One conceals physical water and moves physical seasons. Expentant and then this begins by itself to become the Mother of everything. A lump of ability able to fill acts the envied being: the Union of everything. It's a short chapter of only two lines but a Great One when knowing the target.

My interest, gambling on horseraces, made the translation a piece of cake, because the 7th character "cheng" means "gallop horse" the Mawangdui chapter 43 Below heaven reaching the soft hurries the gallop horse to reach the hard of world coming from having no occupation entering to have no interval. The knowledge of not being, my correct use, is beneficial. Not speaking its teaching is to benefit of having no being. The world's rare ability seizes it indeed! heaven my correct use The term "wu wei" occurs twice in this chapter and both means here "no being", because there are no characters nomilizing "wei" as the verb "to do, to make". "wei" would have been nomilized as "to do, to make" by the character "yi", if Laozi hadn't used underlining in line two (the underlined replace "zhi"). My take on the pointe is, that spoken words aren't seized by the gravity, while unspoken teaching by doing is understandable to all earthly beings.

Da Yi Sheng Shui The Great One gives birth to water. The return of water assists the Great One by completing heaven and the heavenly return assists the Great by completing earth. The return of heaven and earth mutually assist by completing insight and spirit. The return of insight and spirit mutually assist by completing yin and yang. The return of yin and yang mutually assist by completing the four seasons. The return of the four seasons mutually assist by completing cold and heat. The return of cold and heat mutually assist by completing damp and fluid. The return of damp and heat mutually assist by completing time and end. Therefore: What's time is the birth of damp and fluid. What's damp and fluid is the birth of cold and heat. What's cold and heat and what's the four seasons are the birth of yin and yang. What's yin and yang is the birth of insight and spirit. What's insight and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth. What's heaven and earth is the birth of the Great One. This is why the Great One conceals physical water and moves physical seasons. Expentant and then this begins by itself to become the Mother of everything. A lump of ability able to fill acts the envied being: the Union of everything. This inability to kill heaven and inability to bury earth is the inability to complete yin and yang. The gentleman knowing this says: (unreadable bamboo slip) Heaven and Dao value what's completed of weakness and naiveness by benefitting what's giving birth. To appreciate the hard of to stab the strong is to profit the soft of to assist the weak. Below the soil is similar to the word earth. Above the air is similar to the word heaven. Dao is also its character; Early Dawn is its name. Why Dao follows what's duty surely rely on its name. Therefore is the duty completed and itself prolonged. That the sage follows duty does also rely on its name. Therefore is the merit completed and himself not boned. Heaven and earth are nominated side by side independently. Therefore perform their two boats in line not cultivated together. To administer heaven isn't enough because: The lowest height of west and north acts powerful. Earth and heaven are not enough: The highest low of east and south acts powerful. The moreover surplus from the lowest of the not enough from what's highest is the moreover surplus from the highest of the not enough from what's lowest. The chinese characters here: http://www.tao-te-king.org/taiyi_shengshui.htm I've translated Da Yi Sheng Shui in order to compare the text with my translations of these two Dao De Jing chapters: The Guodian version of chapter 25 It is formed flooding. The filled up is the former Heaven. The Earth lives peacefully. Separated singles constitute not fertilizing. Is it possible that the mother of the world not yet knows its name? Its character is called Dao being my powerful Great called the dambursting of a title called Great is unlikely called the reoccurence of a damburst called unlikely. The large earth of a large heaven is the large Dao of a king moreover a great nation. The center has four large from it and the residence of the king is the first from it. The earth following the sky of a man following the ground is Dao following its own nature of a heaven following Dao The Mawangdui version of chapter 42 The first born second of Dao giving birth once is the trice born everything of the twice born third. Everything carries yin and embraces yang. Fluid and air are considered harmonious. The harmful of man is only orphaned, widowed and infertile and then do kings and dukes take these as titles. Some gain through loss or lose through gain. What another has taught I teach as well: Tyrants never choose their deaths My take on it, father.

The core of Da Yi Sheng Shui is: The Great One gives birth to water. The return of water assists the Great One by completing heaven and the heavenly return assists the Great by completing earth. The return of heaven and earth mutually assist by completing insight and spirit. Expentant and then this begins by itself to become the Mother of everything. A lump of ability able to fill acts the envied being: the Union of everything. What's insight and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth. What's heaven and earth is the birth of the Great One. The core of Da Yi Sheng Shui is ONE character "WEI" the verb both ""to do, to make" and "to be". Laozi's answer:

The core of Laozi's chapter 42 arguement: The first born second of Dao giving birth once is the trice born everything of the twice born third. Everything carries yin and embraces yang. concerns these three Da Yi Sheng Shui lines: What's yin and yang is the birth of insight and spirit. What's insight and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth. What's heaven and earth is the birth of the Great One. He read (like I translate) the characters "suo sheng" as "is the birth of", because "suo" before a verb (here "sheng") grammatically creates a noun-like phrase. That's important, because the authority Henricks translates "suo sheng" as "were produced by". What is a human being? I think that the answer to that question shows the difference between Huang-Lao and Laozi Is it that which has insight and spirit? Is it that which walks on two legs?

One of the great things concerning the Mawangdui version is, that most of the original "ye" characters are maintained. These are omitted in the Received version due to the Han-modernization of the classical chinese. So the original characters of the chapter One opening line was: dao ke dao ye fei heng dao ye ming ke ming ye fei heng ming ye The ye function formula Laozi used was: X ye fei Y ye = it's X it isn't Y it's dao ke dao it isn't heng dao it's ming ke ming it isn't heng ming The next formula he used compares two dual noun phrases: B of A is like D of C it isn't heng dao of it's dao ke dao is like it isn't heng ming of it's ming ke ming The first ye formula identifies four noun phrases, while the ke (maybe) characters identifies: 1. that the following character is a verb 2. that ming means "a title" and not "a name" it isn't heng a noun of it's a noun maybe a verb is like it isn't heng a name of it's a name maybe a title heng means "eternal/forever" and dao means "a walk/to walk" so the result is: it isn't an eternal walk of it's a walk maybe walking is like it isn't an eternal name of it's a name maybe a title Especially the way of comparing two lines of two components is neglected by all translators leading to a lot of mysterious more or less nonsense sentenses, which make one of the greatest authors ever look like first year student. It took me only five hours to translate the Guodian Da Yi Sheng Shui script, while I spend at least five days translating one of his Guodian chapters. They are like paintings, where all the characters work together like colors. I haven't yet come across one single mistake. The Guodian chapters must by logic be first hand copies of his original manuscript. I simply do not believe, that there was a second person with the same writing skill and deep deep insight as he reveals in those chapters. None of the Received chapters have been improved by scholarly editting.

The only lines problematic to read/translate are: Expentant and then this begins by itself to become the Mother of everything. A lump of ability able to fill acts the envied being: the Union of everything. That'll say the moment of birth; the other lines are peanuts compared to read/translate Laozi

BULL's EYE The internet is to me a world of language and can therefore not be walked. I'm able to read the opening line of Tao Te Ching chapter One when using grammar (I'll make a post in the chapter One thread later today and explain the grammar rules)

I opt in to that one I prefer to read Laozi's guide as he wrote it himself in his own language. And I write/translate what I've read for two reasons: To get critical feedback from those who too read/translate, so I can improve my reading/translating. To serve those who are not talented with the skill of reading/translating pre-Qin classical chinese, and get their feedback to the logic of my writings, because not logic = not read/translated correct! Pre-Qin classical chinese is contrary to the modern a language of negative indification, and the characters are grammatically identified as names (nouns) or titles (not nouns), so a reader has to read what a character isn't in order to identify what it is: That it isn't "The Tao" but "Tao _" because "Tao" is the title to a not nameable noun!

To know when enough is sufficient knowledge. I simply can't see the above truth as a lie too. Does this mean, that I'm not an honest man? Or is your perspective to the lie of truth perspective a lie?

Please .................. do nothing

Let me enlighten you, Mr. arbiter of taste Flowing Hands is surely a great shaman and a great writer. Please respect But Flowing Hands "the Dao" is precisely what Laozi argues against chapter after chapter. His at first sight little innocent title "the" manifests Dao as existing. ChiDragon, chase the ball not the man

I've had a change of mind, stan herman, after having finished my reading of the whole chapter below. "That which" is "to know when enough is enough" and I think, that the speaker explains it in a greater way than the way I translate, what I've read, into not-native english: The Guodian chapter 56 That which make knowledge isn't speech. That which make speech isn't knowledge. Blocking its spread is to separate its opening. Harmonizing its extent is to share its dust. Raising its point is to untie its disorder. These are called complementary substitutes and therefore not obtainable. But shrugging off not obtainable and neglecting not obtainable, then the snatching of not grabbable and then the slandering of not grabbable, hence the strangulation of the not grabbable and worthless. Therefore make the world dearest. xuan means according to the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary dark: "that which is black and have red color" I've chosen "complementary" in order to express the duality of "dark" in the context.

Sorry, but all translations of the last line in this thread are not correct The problem is the verb "wei" that means either "to be" or "to do, to make". The differentiation was e.g. done by by using two ways of writing "therefore": "gu wei" means "therefore to do, to make" "shi yi wei" means "therefore to be" Therefore make the world dearest. The Guodian version has an extra "zhi" character in each of the first two lines: That which make knowledge isn't speech. That which make speech isn't knowledge. "That which" is in my way of reading the chapter: the world.

Laozi used underlines when writing! Here are two examples: The Received Tao Te Ching chapter One: The it isn't the eternal walk of it's walking maybe a walk is the it isn't the eternal name of it's entitling maybe a name. The first of the Heavenly was not entitled. The Mother of everything is a title. Therefore, observe their obedience, whereby looking at the mystery forever having the desired, which forever is to have no desire. A similar pairing of same appearance and same meaning of the different titles dark darkness is the additional darkness of the mysterious multitude gate. darkness multitude (the multitude of darkness) The Guodian Tao Te Ching chapter One (known as the chapters 19 + 66 + 46): The knowledge of forsaking abandons the differentiation, that the people will profit a hundredfold. The skill of forsaking abandons the benefit, that the robbers and the swindlers will lose existence. The hypocracy of forsaking abandons the humbug, that the people will return to youngest children. Precaution lacks the one ordering the three statements to someone in a subordinate position, making a virtue of necessity. The River and the Sea; which one rules the 100 mountainstreams? Regard its ability as the low of the 100 mountainstreams. Therefore Their ability to rule the 100 mountainstreams. The people being foremost is the posture of the sage therewith humble presence. The people being above is his attitude therewith lowly speech. The people being highest, what doesn't denigrate the people, is his opinion. The people being in the front, what doesn't override the people, is his view. The music of the world advances but not disliked, because it doesn't invade. Therefore the inability to engage in the world warfare. There's no larger crime than extreme desire. There's no more sorrowful conflict than spoils sharing. There's no greater misfortune than not knowing when enough. What's forever enough: Sufficient knowledge is enough! the three statements world knowledge (The three statements are the knowledge of the world) Laozi's underlines make together a headline of each text. Knowing this makes it possible to identify chapters in the 81 chapters edition, that originally were written by Laozi as one single text, but was divided into more chapters by later editors! Laozi's underlines are easily identified: He placed the underlined in the front of a sentence and placed a zhi (Z) character where the underlined belonged to in the sentence. That'll say every zhi (Z) character or character(s) in the front of a sentence, misplaced due to classical chinese grammar rules, indicates an Laozi underline!

A Laozi underline found in the Guodian chapter 25: It is formed flooding. The filled up is former Heaven. The Earth lives peacefully. Separated singles constitute not fertilizing. Is it possible that the mother of the world not yet knows its name? Its character is called Dao being my powerful: Great called dambursting of a title called great is unlikely called reoccurence of a damburst called unlikely. The large earth of a large heaven is the large Dao of a king moreover a great nation. The center has four large from it and the residence of the king is the first from it. The earth following the sky of a man following the ground is Dao following itself of heaven following Dao. my powerful I will not bore you with details concerning the underlining. It's much more interesting, that Laozi here deals with Da Yi Sheng Shui (The Great One generates Water) Here is a link to a bad but although a translation of this text that Laozi didn't agree with (slips 10-12): http://www.tao-te-king.org/taiyi_shengshui.htm The Guodian chapter 25 is a copy of Laozi's original manuscript. It's written in exactly the same style of writing as his famous chapter one.

The Virtue raised of Dao born is the environment completed of matter formed. Sorry dawei, but the subject isn't Laozi's "De", but Laozi's "this is not De"

The problem is seen from my point of view, that a personal pronoun (it/them) in any language by convention refers to somebody/somewhat mentioned earlier in a text. That's elementary grammar in any language! So translating a character zhi as the personal pronoun "it/them" in the first line line of a chapter without no somebody/somewhat earlier mentioned is either a mistranslation done by someone not knowing the nuances of classical chinese or a correct translation of a grammatical mistake done by Laozi? The guidance you offer me crossing the way is the guidance offered by a blind man.

ok