lienshan

The first six lines is one arguement in my translation. Lao Dan says, that the title "Son of Heaven" is a bluff, because the ruler is stingy but heaven isn't stingy, which he names narrowness in line 6. My translation reads the first five lines reversed, while Dr. Wang read/translate all lines straight out. His problem is thus the term "serving Heaven", that read/translated reversed means "Heaven's office" corresponding to "Man's administration", that'll say together the Zhou dynasty ruler title "Son of Heaven". Dr. Wang's "serving Heaven" makes no sense, it's nonsense. Do you or any other taoist on this board "serve Heaven"? I think, that you prefer "serving Tao"! So Dr. Wang's translation is by logic a mistranslation.

The reason why it's mistranslated is, that the text was coded to pass by the official censor's eyes <== 8 : gu4 di3 chang2 sheng1 jiu4 shi4 zhi1 dao4 The three last characters in bold is the key to code of chapter 59. Hexagrams were at the time of Lao Dan expressed thus: kuan zhi heng (hex 20 goes to hex 32) shi4 means like kuan "to observe/to see" and chapter 1, line 1 says "heng dao"! The diviner Lao Dan used the Guicang as code. He used one number 8 and five 6 or 7 numbers. Those knowing the code could thus easily compute the number of characters in six of the lines, and find out, where the lines were meant to break. kuan = 776668 heng = 667778 That's why the last line of this Dao De Jing chapter 59 is extremely important: It tells, that the original chapter 1 characters were the tabooed heng, and not the characters chang of the received Dao De Jing versions! But let's talk about the meaning of Lao Dan's text

7 ==> : A form of existence, a flood, killed the prior to the Son of Heaven. <== 7 : To be appointed, not inheriting, is the only void and silent birth. 6 ==> : Is it possible, that the mother was in a lower position than Heaven? 7 ==> : Not yet knowing the pronouncement of his personal name? <== 8 : The action of the spoken title "Great" is the way of the strong "We". <== 6 : Great, said to be the dam burst of a bursting dam, is called an exaggeration. 8 ==> : An exaggeration is, using analogy, to say: Heaven is greatly great! <== 7 : The existent state is great like the king is great. <== 7 : Thereupon one residing king, thereupon Dao of the great quartet: <== 6 : The standard of days is the earth, and the standard of humans is the land. 7 ==> : The standard of the sky is Dao, and the standard of Dao is its own nature. http://www.daoisopen.com/A11toA13Chapters25516.html The reading direction of the chinese characters in the lines 1, 3, 4, 7, 11 is from above to below (downwards) (from left to right in western style) The reading direction of the chinese characters in the lines 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10 is from below to abowe (upwards) (from right to left in western style) The number of characters in the six reversed lines form three divinations, corresponding to the content of the text written by the diviner Lao Dan: Zhouyi 786776 = hexagram 18.1,4 (Ku zhi Ta Yu) Guicang 786776 = hexagram 18.2,3,5,6 (Ku zhi Pi) Lianshan 786776 = hexagram 18.5 (Ku zhi Sun) Two short commentaries: "the prior" is Gun, the father of Yu the great. His son or grandson Qi was the 1th Son of Heaven. "We" was how a Son of Heaven officially said "I".

The river and the position of the sea use to rule hundred valley streams. A king uses this ability to rule hundred valley streams. Below is reason why the ability rules hundred valley streams. The influence of the leading people goes to the holy king of man. Because posthumous goes to the people of his influence. Superiors use words downwards going to the people of their influence. The people of superiors is not behind their influence. Heaven does not harm the leading people of the people. Do not hate and advance joy below. The former arguement of Heaven is not its reason. Arguing goes to the ability of coorperation with no one below. (the Guodian chapter 66) 7 ==> : jiang1 hai3 suo3 yi3 wei2 bai3 gu3 7 ==> : wang2 yi3 qi2 neng2 wei2 bai3 gu3 7 ==> : xia4 shi4 yi3 neng2 wei2 bai3 gu3 <== 7 : wang2 sheng4 ren2 zhi1 zai4 min2 qian2 7 ==> : yi3 shen1 hou4 zhi1 qi2 zai4 min2 8 ==> : shang4 yi3 yan2 xia4 zhi1 qi2 zai4 min2 6 ==> : shang4 min2 fu2 hou4 qi2 zai4 <== 6 : min2 qian2 min2 fu2 hai2 tian1 <== 6 : xia4 le4 jin4 er2 fu2 yan2 <== 6 : yi3 qi2 bu4 zheng1 gu4 tian1 <== 6 : xia4 mo4 neng2 yu3 zhi1 zheng1 The corresponding divination numbers are 777786 (hexagram 33)

The traditionalist reconstructs Tao The newcomer is going to use Tao all matter lives in to have being born from to have no The Guodian Laozi chapter 40

Tao cannot be described, because Tao has no characteristics. Lao Dan used the speaking rules of a "Son of Heaven" to show the consequences of the slogan "Great Dao", that was headlining Shen Dao's "daoism".

Here's the lese-majesty: tian fa di di fa ren (with the characters written reversed) tian fa dao dao fa zi ran The rulerly Heaven rules man. The ruler of Heaven says: The rules of speaking are our own indeed! Translation detailes: di means "earth" but can too mean "-ly" changing the preceeding character into an adverb. dao means Dao but can too mean "to say, to speak". There were four rules of speaking; four ways for the ruler to address four kinds of subordinates. That's the pointe of the line 9 phrase "the great four". And one of the rules, "We", is demonstrated in the line 5.

I buy your arguement Naming something "great" means, that there are at least two of the kind. Naming something "great", when there is only one of the kind, is an exxageration. The Guodian Laozi chapter 25 is the original Lao Dan text, but his arguementation was outdated 221 BC, when the warring states period with more kings ended and China was unified with only one king. Dao De Jing chapter 25 had to be edited or be banned by the Han dynasty emperor. Like the character "heng" (independent) of chapter 1 became a taboo character, when the emperor Heng (his personal name) died, and "heng" had to be edited to the character "chang" (constant) in every written text.

I read Lao Dan's reasoning this way: The state, the king and the four standards can be great, because they are man-made terms. Humans, land, days, sky, and nature cannot be great, because they aren't man-made terms. Thus: "great Dao" is a man-made term, while "Dao" isn't a man-made term. An indication of a reversed reading direction is the term "guo zhong" in line 8. My translation is "state" (nation) corresponding to the term "zhong guo". "zhong guo" means "China" as a modern term and meant "the Zhou dynasty" in 362 BC.

hi Marplehead I understand the last four lines of my translation as a connected philosophical reasoning. The two last lines (Dr. Wang's last four) describes "the great quartet". The interesting question is: Which four one's are the great four? Maybe the four "standards" (fa)? Because otherwise I count six: humans, land, days, sky, Dao, and nature! And Dr. Wang counts five: Man, Earth, Heaven, Tao and Tzujan!

A way can be Dao is a paradox. Independent Dao and a name namable is a contradiction. Independence, named the nonexistent name Heaven and Earth, is the starting point. Existence is named a matter of tenthousand mothers by accident. Selfish desires is from studying their beautifulness. The desire of selfishness is because observing its manifestation. Both sides of now are identical appearance and different names, together meaning. Arriving at the darkening dusk goes to the dark of darkness. The gate of multitude mystery. BOTH SIDES OF NOW Dao daoable is the contradiction the way of independence. Named can be a name is the paradox an independent name. Nonexistence named is the starting point of Heaven and Earth. The name of existing is the matter for tenthousand mothers by accident. Eternal desireless is because observing its mystery. Unchanging desireful is from studying their manifestation. Both sides of now are together appearance and different named. The identical meaning is to arrive at dark and the exiting of darkening. Dusk, the multitude beautifulness of darkness, is the gate.

I don't feel bad, if you prefer a translation with 3 lines in wrong reading direction. The diviner Lao Dan "watermarked" these 3 lines using hexagram related characters: The lines 3, 4 and 9 (the even-odd hexagram no.) must be read from right to left. line 1: hex 43 Guai (the speaking staff) hex 44 Gou (the sovereign queen) line 2: hex 7 Shi (the leader) hex 8 Bi (the alliance) line 3: hex 4 Meng (the ignorance) hex 3 Zhun (the initial difficulties) line 4: hex 44 Gou (the sovereign queen) hex 43 Guai (the speaking staff) line 5: hex 15 Qian (the grey rat) hex 16 Yu (the great illusion) line 6: hex 35 Jin (the reward) hex 36 Ming Yi (the twilights) line 7: hex 59 Huan (the enlightening) hex 60 Jie (the formulation) line 8: hex 61 Zhong Fu (the inner truth) hex 62 Xiao Guo (the flying bird) line 9: hex 36 Ming Yi (the twilights) hex 35 Jin (the reward) line 1: Say 'the unspeakable sovereign' Dao. line 2: The term 'can be a title' isn't an independent clause. line 3: The first, the worldly heaven, is nonexistence entitled. line 4: The mother, the material tenthousand, is existence named. line 5: Therefore: a bachelor without desire used to study her subtlety. line 6: A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation. line 7: Both sides of now are a similar appearance and different words. line 8: Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits. line 9: The gate, the mystic multitude, darkens the twilights. I know that you aren't interested in divination, so put in short: The diviner Lao Dan "watermarked" the three lines in order to make the six other lines form a triple divination based on the numbers of characters in each of these lines. The seventh line is tricky: If the Mawangdui version is original, then there are six characters. If the Received version is original, then the first 3 charaters are 1. The triple divination are three versions of hexagram 15 "the grey rat": Zhouyi 668766 = Qian zhi Xiao Chu = hex 15 goes to hex 9 = hex 15.1,2,5,6 Guicang 668766 = Ling zhi ba = hex 15 goes to hex 61 = hex 15.1,2,3,5,6 (line 4 is what's left, when Ling becomes Zhong Fu) Lianshan 668766 = Ling zhi Xiao Guo = hex 15 goes to hex 62 = hex 15.4 (I'm still exploring this ancient divination method) "the grey rat" = Confucius

Say 'the unspeakable sovereign' Dao. The term 'can be a title' isn't an independent clause. The first, the worldly heaven, is nonexistence entitled. The mother, the material tenthousand, is existence named. Therefore: a bachelor without desire used to study her beauty. A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation. Both sides of now are similar appearance and different words. Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits. The gate, the mystic multitude, darkens the twilights. (Confucius left his wife and became a bachelor) I've really enjoyed translating Lao Dan's incredible text. I might return with a translation of his chapter 25 You have now been warned

Chapter 1 deals with the difference between confucianism and daoism, which is expressed in the reading of the term 'jun zi'. Confucians read the term as an independent clause: the ruler is the son (the superior man) Daoists read the term as an unindependent clause: the son of the ruler (ruler and son) Chapter 25 deals with the difference between Shen Daoism and daoism, which is expressed in the reading of the term 'da dao'. Shen Daoists read the term as an independent clause: Dao is great (great Dao) Daoists read the term as an unindependent clause: the Dao of the great great and Dao Consequently: Any Dao De Jing Chapter 1 line 1 translation, that ends with 'constant Dao', 'eternal Dao', 'unchanging Dao', 'you name it', is a Confucian, Shen Daonistic translation.

Is distinguishing acceptable and more acceptable the way? I listen to your intuition: Say, speakable unindependent, Dao. The term 'can be a title' is not an independent clause. The first, the worldly heaven, is entitled the nonexistent. The mother, the material tenthousand, is named the existent. The independence of death, the desire of nonexisting, uses to observe their mystery. A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation. Both sides of now are the same appearance and different words. Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits. The gate, the mystic multitude, darkens the twilights. Line 5 is meant to be read as: The independence of death, the desire of nonexistence, uses to observe the dead independent mystery. that have the same line structure as the Image text of hexagram 32 HENG: The air of thunder, the son of a single ruler, uses to enthrone the not changing way. The independent clause of the last line is the air uses The independent clause changes (when jun zi = superior man) to the superior man uses Lao Dan's pointe is, that Confucius's the superior man can be inserted in the 5th line thus: Death and independence are nonexistence. The superior man uses to observe the dead independent mystery. (That's the way Richard Wilhelm translate the Image text of hexagram 32 HENG)

My own thumb rule is, that if I worry in beforehand, then I get the worries twice. The death in the 5th line is related to an important grammatical problem: if 'jun zi' is read/translated as 'the son of the ruler', then is 'jun zi yi' not an independent clause. if 'jun zi' is read/translated as 'the gentleman', then is 'jun zi yi' an independent clause. The text read/translated is 'Mountains Standing Together'. A 'book' that originally was 64 orally transmitted verses. 'Mountains Standing Together' was composed around 1900-1800 BC. It's the first 'daoist' book, if 'jun zi yi' is not an independent clause! Here's an example from Mountains Standing Together, the verse about 'Strength': tian ..... xing .................... heaven ...... circulation jian ..... jun ..................... strong ........ ruler zi ........ yi ....................... son ............ uses zi ........ jiang ................... its own ...... boundary line bu ....... xi ....................... not ............. breathing The verse read horisontally: The cirkulation of heaven, the son of a strong ruler, uses its own boundary line not breathing The 1th vertical line: heaven strong son its own not The 2th vertical line: cirkulation ruler uses boundary line breathing The verse when read/translated with 'jun zi yi' as the independent clause: The movement of heaven is full of power. Thus the gentleman makes himself strong and untiring.

The 5th line is mentioned in Zhuangzi chapter 33 (the world). It's said that: 'the Dao of Shen Dao is the Dao for the dead'

Say, speakable unindependent, Dao. The term 'can be a title' is not an independent clause. The first, the worldly heaven, is entitled the nonexistent. The mother, the material tenthousand, is named the existent. Death, the desire of single nonexisting, uses to observe her beauty. A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation. Both sides of now are the same appearance and different words. Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits. The gate, the mystic multitude, darkens the twilights. Dao De Jing Chapter 1 contains a reading of the hexagram 32 Heng Image text: lei ...... feng .................... thunder ..... air heng .. jun ...................... single ........ ruler zi ....... yi ........................ son ........... uses li ........ bu ....................... enthrone ... do not yi ....... fang .................... change ...... the way The hexagram 32 Heng Image text read horisontally: The air of thunder, the son of a single ruler, uses to enthrone the unchanging way The 1th vertical line: thunder single son enthrones change The 2th vertical line: air ruler uses do not the way The 'nonexistent' in the 3th line of Dao De Jing chapter 1 is 'thunder'. The 'existent' in the 4th line of Dao De Jing chapter 1 is 'air'. The horisontal Image text line corresponds to the 5th line of Dao De Jing chapter 1, that shows the confucian version of the horisontal line, when written the way Confucius coined the term 'jun zi'

Those who claim that there is no first are them who always come too late and thus miss the first but never the end.

OK ... who was the first ? Say speakable unindependent Dao. The term can be a title isn't an independent clause. The first entitles the nonexistence of the Heavenly ... The mothers names the existence of the tenthousand things. The former nonexistence desires by means of looking at their beauty. A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation. Both sides of now are the same appearance and different compliments. Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits. The gate darkens the twilights of the multitudinous mystery. Some historical 'facts': 'the first' was King Wu, the first Zhou emperor entitled 'Heavenly Son' (tian zi). King Wu entitled posthumuous his father King Wen as 'Heavenly Son' (tian zi). King Wen (the author of the Zhouyi) died two years before the Zhou conquest 1045 BC. Servants addressed to a 'Son of Heaven' by speaking 'wan sui ye' (tenthousands years indeed). The 'Son of Heaven' referred to himself by saying 'wu' (we) (the second character of Guicang hexagram 32 name 'heng wu' (independent I = selfish)

The problem of treating the three lines equally is the verbs: The gate darkens, if the gate is synonymous with the Ji Gate, that'll say the scholars gathering at the Ji Gate. The mothers name (a better pick than are named) their children. The starting point names the nonexistence of the heavenly ... Who is 'the starting point'? That's the big question, no matter how you translate shi (origin, beginning, starting point).

OK ... let's brainstorm the line and see, if it does make sense? 'The Gate' is in my understanding synonymous with the Ji Gate of Jixia (The Academy of Jixia). The mohists were the strongest School of Thought there, when Laozi lived. The turning point of their philosophy was 'the Intention of Heaven'. The turning point of the Zhou dynasty was, that the king was 'the Son of Heaven'. But the morning twilight and evening twilight are different. That means, that it's the same sun that disappears in the evening and reoccurs in the morning. Darkening the twilights means to hide this fact and claim, that the Earth is flat and that the sun dies every night and is reborn every morning, like a new 'Son of Heaven' is reborn when the former 'Son of Heaven' pass away. 'the multitudinous mystery' means thus the mystery of the many Sons of Heaven and the many suns? An alternative: The gate of twilights means either from dawn to dusk (day) or from dusk to dawn (night). 'the gate of twilights darkens' means thus 'while night'.

hi Marplehead I think, that I have misunderstood the function of the character zhi unspoken: OBJECT VERB zhi SUBJECT The independent clause is OBJECT VERB But zhi unspoken reverse OBJECT and SUBJECT into: SUBJECT VERB OBJECT Where SUBJECT VERB is the independent clause. Translating line 4 according to the above produces this: Line 4: The mothers are named the existence of the tenthousand things. Treating line 9 in the same way (wan=adjective and wu=noun) makes multitude=adjective and mystery=noun: Line 9: The gate darkens the twilights of the multitudinous mystery. Treating line 3 in the same way is a problem, because tian isn't an adjective. The character di should thus not be translated 'earth', because it's having the function of making the preceeding character (tian) an adjective: Line 3: The starting point is named the nonexistence of the heavenly ... The ... is like the last words of the lines 4 and 9 a noun, the noun 'nonexistence' not existent! Say speakable unindependent Dao. The term can be a title isn't an independent clause. The starting point is named the nonexistence of the heavenly ... The mothers are named the existence of the tenthousand things. The former nonexistence desires by means of looking at their beauty. A selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation. Both sides of now are the same appearance and different compliments. Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits. The gate darkens the twilights of the multitudinous mystery.

dear Master Marblehead Maybe more of the readers of this tread think: aha a Master; no smoke without fire; so respect! That's the "mystery" of titles: it's an illusion; it's nonexistence; but respect! Say speakable unindependent Dao. The term can be a title isn't an independent clause. The starting point of nonexistence is entitled Earth of Heaven. The mothers of existence are named the tenthousand things. The former Earth of Heaven nonexistence desires by means of looking at their beauty. The selfish desire arises from the observation of its manifestation. Both sides of now are the same appearance and different compliments. Identical means to arrive at dusk as the darkening exits. The gate of twilights darkens the mystery of the multitude.

Laozi's pointe of line 3 is in my reading, that nonexistence (wu) cannot be named, if Dao is named, but nonexistence (wu) can be named, if Dao is not named. He used the character zhi as an substitution for Dao in order to prove his statement. zhi spoken means: go to, arrive at, exit (when at the end of a line), genetive function: Y of X zhi unspoken means: an auxillary character, that cancells the independence of a clause (used t.ex. in poems to place the noun of an independent clause at the end of a line to make it ryhme) Line 3 can thus be read differently, depending of whether zhi is a spoken character or an unspoken character! zhi spoken: wu ming tian di zhi shi nonexistence is named heaven and the starting point of earth zhi unspoken: wu ming tian di zhi shi the starting point of nonexistence is named earth of heaven 'earth of heaven' can too be translated 'heavenly', but the meaning is identical: The Son of Heaven That'll say, nonexistence (wu) means 'an illusion', when Dao is unspoken. That'll say, wu wei (nonexistence acted) means illusion acted, when Dao is unspoken; in modern terms: bluffing! The zhi spoken definition of wu 'heaven and the starting point of earth' means the horizon. All translations into english cheat with the grammar, assuming that Laozi's grammar was as clumsy as mine, and treat the two characters tian di as one character, changing Laozi's words into: nonexistense is named the starting point of heaven and earth So wu wei (nonexistence acted) isn't an independent clause, when Dao is spoken, because neither the horizon nor the Big Bang can be acted.