lienshan

The litteral reading of the sentence: 天 地 heaven and earth 而 as likely as 弗能 the impossibility 久 to grow late 有兄 to have a big brother 於人 one's 乎 rethorical ? It was important for Laozi to use the verb 久 for some specific reason I don't know. So the litteral read sentence contains a double-negotiation; that'll say: the impossibility to grow late = the possibility to grow earlier

I've found the definition of heng 恆 when reading a Confucius quote in the annalects. Put in short: An one-armed man is heng one-armed that'll say one-armed all the time, day in and day out. A good man isn't heng good that'll say not good all the time, day in and day out. The Great One gives birth to water and the return of water assists the Great One thus completing heaven and the heavenly return is a big assistance thus completing earth. The return of heaven and earth mutually assist thus completing light and spirit. The return of light and spirit mutually assist thus completing yin and yang. The return of yin and yang mutually assist thus completing the four seasons ... etc. etc. The text is a part of the Guodian Tao Te Ching and the author is in my opinion Laozi. What he deals with is a contemporary taoist cosmology and he starts with quoting it.

The scarce words are Tao and Te; their natural metaphors are the whirlwind and the cloudburst. Laozi followed the logicians theory: To correct its character as actuality is to correct its name. That's why he in his premises states: Tao is Tao and Te is Te in the same way as a whirlwind is whirlwind and a cloudburst is a cloudburst That's why he in his premises states: Tao together with Te share losses in the same way as a whirlwind and a cloudburst share losses (blowing away and flooding things) The first line of the chapter is meant to be read both as you do and as I do ... by purpose! That was possible in classical chinese but is impossible in modern english ... we must choose? Just like when translating the in his arguementation important character 失 (to lose and a loss)

希言自然 is an ordinary subject-verb-object sentence. 希 is the subject, a noun, that'll say hopes (plural because it refers to two samples below). 言 is the verb, that'll say spoken (past time because the two samples are from the past). 自然 zi ran is an adverb of compound characters and is the object of the sentence. The two samples are defined as hopes that'll say must be read in future time: "The whirlwind might not last the morning out" "The cloudburst might end before the day is done" Both a whirlwind and a cloudburst normally lasts no longer than a few minutes. That'll say the two hopes are always self-fulfilling.

I read Laozi's arguement as not mocking but logically: What causes these to happen? Heaven and earth as likely as being made earlier than one's big brother? Therefore is the following standard as likely as Tao is Tao and Te is Te: If a loss was lost by Te, and if Tao together with Te share losses, then is Tao additionally becoming the lost. He says, that the logicans only focus on Te and therefore forget Tao. Or as a metaphor: making Tao the little brother of Te. That'll say he uses a paradox to argue against the logicians paradoxes! The first three lines of the chapter are about what today is called Self-fulfilling Prophecies. That'll say he nicknames The School of Names as The School of Self-fulfilling Prophecies.

子貢曰：我不欲人之加諸我也，吾亦欲無加諸人。 子曰：賜也，非爾所及也 。 Zi Gong said: "What I do not wish men to do to me, I also wish not to do to men." The Master said: "If a gift, then it is not you who offer."

You are right. The heart radical was added to heng when changing to seal script, and the divination radical was added to heng when changing from oraclebone script.

A (prior to Laozi) taoist cosmology was TaiYiShengShui "The Great One gave birth to Water". Emptiness may be synonymous with The Great One? Laozi dealt with this taoist cosmology in the Guodian chapter 25 this way: 字之曰道 吾強為之名曰大 大曰潰 潰曰轉 轉曰返 ........ 道法自然 The character is called Tao. I stengthen it by calling it Great. Great is called a dam failure. A dam failure is called Large. Large is called a fanqie. ...... Tao is ruled by self-fulfilling. A fanqie: Early dictionaries such as the Erya (3rd century BC) indicated the pronunciation of a character by the method of dú ruò (讀若, "read as"), giving another character with the same pronunciation. My own take on the character 恆 heng is that the character is a picture of the pulsation. A boat between two shores and a heart radical. The pulsation is both durating and independent of our will.

I am a dane ... welcome

I'm not producing an English translation! I read the exavacated Tao Te Ching versions in the original language training my brain in the same way as others practize "material arts" training their bodies. Chapter 23 is about what's today is called "self-fulfilling prophecies" ( hopeful sayings zi ran) I like Cat's point of view. Self-igniting and self-fulfilling are related terms, and what is the definition of "eternal"? I know the modern definition, but how did the chinese define "eternal" around 350 BC?

The sentence is much longer than I thought ... all in all 35 characters 道之尊 也 德之貴 也 夫莫之爵 也 而恆自然 也 道生之畜之長之育之亭之毒之養之覆之 The first 也 character marks a subject clause (The dignifying of Tao) The three other 也 characters mark three subordinate clauses. The dignifying of Tao (the high-ranking Te) (a man cannot ennoble it) (thus independently self-fulfilling) is Tao made giving birth, made breeding, made elevated, made produced, made erected, made poisoned, made raised, made returned. 之 after a verb means "made" creating an adverbial phrase according to Pulleyblank. The last four lines of the chapter describe the opposite of "the high-ranking Te": Giving birth yet no existence. Acting yet no dependence. Elevated yet no dominance. This is called the profound Te.

The character 而 was used grammatically to mark a series of verbs: 尊 and 貴 and 自然 Because a man cannot ennoble them, are the dignifying of Tao and the elevating of Te independently self-fulfilling. That'll say the dignifying of Tao results in the ennobling of Tao like a self-fulfilling prophecy. That'll say the elevating of Te results in the ennobling of Te like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If one read 恆 as always instead of independently then due to grammar / context: Because a man cannot ennoble it, is the dignifying of Tao, the high-ranking Te, always self-fulfilling.

A definition of eternal is existing outside of time You're right if self-igniting isn't an answer to when?

Honoring Tao and esteeming Te, a man cannot order them, and always self-fulfilling. The character 恆 is in this reading of the sentence, due to grammar, an adverb. Independently looks in the context wrong to me, so I try the traditional always.

When a man cannot order them are honoring Tao and prizing Te your independent self-fulfillings. 道之尊也 德之貴也 夫莫之爵也 而恆自然也 The two first 也 characters mark the two subject clauses (honoring Tao and prizing Te) The third 也 character marks a subordinate clause (a man cannot order them) The fourth 也 character marks an object clause (your independent self-fulfillings)

An english word that matches all five uses of zi ran in the exavacated Tao Te Ching is self-fulfilling The Guodian chapter 17 When job's successfully done people say: "Our self-fulfilling". The Mawangdui B chapter 23 The self-fulfilling of prophecies: "A whirlwind doesn't last a whole morning". The Guodian chapter 25 Tao is ruled by self-fulfilling. The Guodian chapter 64 A talent helps the self-fulfilling of everyone like the acting of no courage. The Mawangdui B chapter 51 When a man cannot order them is Your Te, when honoring Tao, your independent self-fulfilling.

自 was always followed by a verb, according to Pulleyblank, so 然 is a verb.

Here's my reading of the five passages where zi ran occurs in Tao Te Ching: The Guodian chapter 17 When job's done people say: "Our self-igniting". The Mawangdui chapter 23 The self-igniting of a hopeful prayer: "A whirlwind doesn't last a whole morning". The Guodian chapter 25 Tao is ruled by self-igniting. The Guodian chapter 64 A talent helps the self-igniting of everything like the acting of no courage. The Mawangdui chapter 51 Honoring Tao and prizing Te. A man cannot command them. Hence independent self-igniting. The last passage containing both Tao and Te together with heng and zi ran is most important. Tao and Te are both self-igniting but independent in my understanding of the exavacated text. But eternal is not the answer to how?

I found the character in the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary defining 然. 燒也從火肰聲臣鉉等曰今俗別作燃蓋後人增加 (the sixth character from behind) 自燃 was probably the usual way to say "self-igniting" when referring to the physical process? 自然. was if so a way so say "self-igniting" indicating, that it must be read not litterally but as a metaphor!

self-igniting is an answer to how? and eternal is an answer to when?

Yeah - that's the way of no doing (wu wei in the taoist terminology) The practice of no offering tips gives rise to a no looking for tips behavior.

Don't offer tips is my tip

The pinyin of the first prayer translated into the pre-Qin classical chinese language: tian xia lei zhi sheng ye tian bai zhi xuan ye yi wan wu 下天雷之声也天拜之旋也易萬物 I hope that the above can help you in your search

The one and only principle that all Taoists hold in common is that we all use the chinese character 道 (Tao in english) when referring to "what cannot be explained". We are in all other aspects different and thanks for that

Hi Jayjay from one of the guys ... not interested in chatting with the girls?