cloud recluse

Wayfarer, was that Maharaji the "Prem Rawat" guy?If so,you might be interested in My Webpage Anyhow,it sounds like youve encountered a few heavy hitters on the Guru front.I imagine that must be a fairly intense experience. Your anecdote here brings up a critical question.How many spiritual experinces are the result of ones own yogic efforts,but presented to you as 'guruji's grace' when you are highly vulnerable as youy psyche tries to incorporate this new ecstasy? Also,does having the yogic skill to access intense altered states gurantee in any way the interpersonal ethical skill to use that energy wisely on oneself (let alone on others)?To me,they are two very SEPERATE skills.Ideally,each would reinforce the other,but if one is focusing on only the internal yogic aspect,& being blown away by it,it may not seem necessary to reengage ones critical faculties for ethical analysis. I imaging that distinguishing these two areas of skill,Internal Yoga & Ethical Yoga,would prevent us throwing the baby out with the bathwater Regards,Cloud

Its admittedly a pretty hefty read.I actually went as far as to print the whole thing out & bind it.Perhaps those wanting a quick synopsis,after which you can then refer back to the text for details,should have a glance at the 'Annex" at the bottom of the contets page. http://flameout.org/flameout/gurus/shadow/annex.html The thing is,Im not necessarily calling the Dalai Lama a deliberate phoney,nor am I citing this document as the final arbiter.As Wayfarer has allready pointed out,the Chinese have churned out considerable propaganda to justify their own atrocities in Tibet. But its also true that even those with an Enlightened Spirit can carry a heavily conditioned cultural psyche.Ideally,an Enlightened being would have far greater capacity & willingness to look at their own conceptual mind & revise its concepts when they are shown to be inconsistent.But thats no guarantee that they will feel inclined to do so.Isolated bt a theocratic system ,their Enlightenment may not have had the chance to permeate human interrelatedness yet. "All the great liberated individuals I have known had cultural biases that markedly influenced their perception or behaviour.Sometimes I felt these biases might interfere with their activities as teachers. It is alsotrue,however,that their relationship with their biases was different from the relationship of the average person in that culture to those biases.One sensed much less of a grasping or holding of these biases,or a defensiveness about them.They were influenced by these biases,the biases were there,but they were held much more lightly."-OPEN MIND,DISCRIMINATING MIND.Charles Tart,p284. The question then becomes one of the Dalai Lamas personal freedom from the system that has created him. Anyhow,even if you end up disagreeing with the contentions of the authors here,reading this one pretty much gives all the current criticisms that are being thrown at the Vajrayana,valid or otherwise.Its nice to get a single source on a debate which does seem to me to be heating up. I myself have nevermet the Dalai lama,& oddly enough I am almost glad,as from numerous testimonies,this guy seems to have some serious charisma happening.I know how much that quality has dazzled me in smaller amounts from other yogic Adepti.The idea of trying to keep a clear head in this Rinpoche's presence sounds EXTREMELY challenging. Regards,Cloud

Wayfarer,I strongly recommend you take the time to read the whole thing.I know that this could be a somewhat time consuming proposition,but I think you would find in "un-put-downable" (Im sorry,I really couldnt think of another expression ).I had allready read some of June Campbells experiences as Kalu Rinpoches sex partner,as well as the growing wariness that many are expressing about the Dalai Lamas political ambitions.This document contains a vast amount of info about the degenerate aspects of Tibetan Buddhism,both historical AND contemporary. Now I dont doubt that anybody who spends most of their life in monastically concentrated esoteric yogic practice can produce some remarkable psychic effects on others,but this has NOTHING to do with Spirit,with morality,integrity ,compassion or Enlightenment.When you actually look at the viloent,woman-hating ,power-hungry history of Tibetan Buddhism,both ancient & modern,it really underscores this fact. If we are going to extract the useful yogic aspects from this system,we cant ignore its immense failings in the human sphere.And Tibetan Vajrayana really does have some serious problems,problems that have become institutionalised into yogic dogma & technique.Theres a big differences between the Vajrayana propaganda coming out of Hollywood,and the grim realities of this patriarchal theocracy. Its not just a case of individual human failings here.The system itself is based on some very twisted ideas that are medieval at best in their view of women ,nature & other religions (especially Islam).The whole Tibetan system is ultimately designed to produce the Shambhallah King who intitaites an apocolypse vis the Kalachakra initiation.The power source for all this is the despised Female world-energy,that must be seduced,consumed & destroyed,purified into male-Buddha energy ,redeemed of its femininity.This may not be readily evident,but its definetely there,& has real consequences for the socio-political system derived from it. I realise that what Ive written here may strike some as deeply offensive,but I strongly urge a serious consideration of the matter.I think part of our maturing as practitioners in post-industrial culture consists of refining valid yogic technique out of cultural systems that can be viciously misogynistic.Unfortunately,such techniques are often deeply interwoven into that misogyny This means we must be diligent & brave enough to have some of our more infantile illusions,our cravings for exotic,"perfect" Master-parent figures confronted.A particular difficult thing when that parent figure has the yogic skill to zap you with bliss-vibes,& expounds a system of considerable complexity & sophistication. Sorry about the length of this post,but I really would encourage people here to take a long,serious look at the Vajrayana.To do so,SHADOW OF THE DALAI LAMA an excellent starting place,as it summarises pretty much all of the criticisms and gives you all the references. Regards,Cloud.

If you areally game,theres a thorough expose on the Tibetan Vajrayana at http://flameout.org/flameout/gurus/shadow/index.html This will really stir some controversy about Tibetan Buddhism.Anybody here read it yet ? Regards,Cloud

Pero' I just reread my post & it occurs to me that my language is somewhat blunt.Please forgive me if Im sounding dogmatic on this of all subjects,but it is a topic I have strong (albeit tentative) feelings on.In banging on about my opinion,I havent stopped to really ask about yours.This,quite simply,isjust plain rude What is your personal feeling on the whole Christ thing.it sounds like it means something to you personally in some sense.I mean,I think your interest in the Gnostics is more than just academic? Yes ? No? What motivates you in this discussion (if you dont mind me asking)? Regards,Cloud

Not flat out fabrications.To get a response from the target audience they must be derived in some manner from already current notions,but yes,by & large,as histories of Christ they are pretty dubious (I include in this the "Gnostic" gospels as well). Certainly there is good stuff scattered throughout the Old & New Testaments,as well as the Apocrypha.Any belief system has to cater succesfully to at least a few human needs.But most of that is the product of numerous rewrites & transpositions ( the Sermon on the Mount being a classic example).Theres also far too much crap in there too,& Id rather go for less polluted sources. Paul DID NOT work well with the other Apostles & was in continual conflict with the original Jerusalem Church prior to its destruction!This does occur in the New Testament itself.Hes vision of Christ as universal Saviour was in direct conflict withn the Apostles Christ -as-exclusively- Jewish-Political-Messiah. Pauls death at that point in time is still prior to the romans realisation of Pauline Christianities political usefulness.That was still a little while off,and the cult had not yet been formalised.

The way I understand it,Jesus was another in a long line of Jewish nationalists who hoped to butcher the Roman occupation with assistance from Yahweh. It didnt work,& he got the standard punishment for a rebel.His brother James continues the fight until the Romans finally slaughter every Jew in Jerusalem & kick the remainder out. Unfortunately,this leaves a folk -hero myth for the remaining Jewish nationalists. Fortunetly for the Romans,the collapse of the original Jesus movement with the destruction of Jerusalem allows imitators to emerge in its place.Loyal Roman citizens like Paul,who never actually met Jesus,cobble together a Rome-freindly anti-semitic pacifist tradition by combining graeco-roman philosophies with distorted versions of the original events. Jesus the violent revolutionary is replaced by the Gospels.The threat of a folk-hero myth is averted,de-fused.And an easy access pseudo-Mystery cult is started. The original Jesus discovered the sad fact that God is "on the side" of whoever has the biggest armies & the best tacticians.No freedom for the Jews,& his own mission twisted into a sickly cult of puritans. No great wisdom there,just failed politics. Regards,Cloud.

Alas,one sometimes has to be cruel to be kind. Dump it,its worthless,its just part of Frances "Templar/Cathar" tourist industry. However,the truth behind the whole "Priory of Sion" scam is kind of interesting.But ,alas ,there is no great mystery of Rennes le Chateu,no Sacred bloodline,no actual Priory of Sion etc.Just 3 guys a few decades ago pulling a pseudo-Masonic prank. Do you really want the details on this ? Your call. Regards,Cloud.

Ahhh,subtle & understated.A man after my own heart Seriously though.while I applaud your fanaticism in this particular instance,I dont think you should look to Holy Blood Holy Grail for accurate history.It sounds like you were referring to the massacre of the Cathars.This was a fairly straightforward case of the Cathars being too vocal about their beliefs,that the material world was evil & thus the biblical creator evil also ( not a very advanced idea at all),& the Church crushing them for that.There was also a lot of social rivalry involved,two different regions of France being long term political enemies,& one of them seizing on the Heretic excuse to wipe out the other ( backed by Church militia). Its not that the Cathars were advanced spiritually,they were just too loud & came from the wrong side of the tracks.Like the Church,they were life-haters,just of a renegade variety.They wernt killed for any "Secret Doctrine",but rather for the fairly crude ones that they trumpeted so loudly. Still,keep a close eye on those fundamentalist bastards.I dont trust em for a second.Theyd kill us all to get to Heaven Yours self-righteously,Cloud

OOOHHHHHH,Now youve REALLY got my attention Gimme,Gimme,Gimme! Anyhow,good luck with the academia Regards,Cloud.

Interesting I can remember A.Ws "TAO:THE WATERCOURSE WAY" was pretty cool.Cant recall seeing a TAO OF ZEN by him though.Did you ever glance at the Alan Watts & Pschedelics thread a few months ago ? Regards,Cloud

I dont know if this is of interest to anyone,but Ive just got 2 thirds of the way through WHAT IS GNOSTICISM? by Karen L.King. A VERY interesting one this,it challenges the historical validity of the very categories of "Gnostic" & "Christian',& gives you a good overview of scholastic research thus far,pointing out that categories like "Gnostic" were often derogatory labels invented by one group to attack another. Also alludes to the total lack of doctrinal uniformity in collections like the Nag Hammadi library,& the difficulty in trying to find any one quality that is universally 'Gnostic". There just seems to be a big question mark hanging over the period of Christian/Gnostic origins from the 1st Century or so onwards. Now ,this is a work of academia,shes not claiming to be channeling Simon Magus or anything like that,so its not full of enticing esoterica.But it does seem like a good antidote to the deeply flawed historical presuppositions thus far. Just my two cents there Regards,Cloud.

So,they werent content simply to exist then.What was it they were actually up to?Was there some particular activity that made their presence known? I do think that they psychology of the cult leader is never really content without a certain amount of drama,& often becomes obsessed with apocalyptic themes in order to cope with internal mental anguish. Any more data on this Sheepish Lord? Regards,Cloud

If yor interested in Daoist roots for Zen,youve REALLY gotta check out THE TAO OF ZEN by Ray Grigg Has anyone here read it.It makes a strong case for Zen being Daoism culturally emerging in Japan via a somewhat ill-fitting use of the trappings & structures of Mahayana Buddhism !! Regards,Cloud.

Greetings Duncan Got a question for you & any other UK citizens.Just bought mysels an armload of books by an English author styling himself "Barefoot Doctor" ( I think his real name is Stephen Russell,or something like that).I LOVE the guys writing style,but dont really have the Alchemical experience to assess his chi gung.have you ever heard anything about this countryman of yours/Any dirt/praise ? I would luv to know Regards,Cloud.

Cool

Good point,perhaps Im being a bit naive Anyhow,on the Falun Gong thang,my understanding is that FG spent a bit of time quietly building a low profile but widespread membership,which came to include many members of government.So suddenly,somehow,senior oficials in the Chinese govt discovered FG once they were allready well established & numerous.The govt was quite shocked to discovera large religious group in their midst who had gone undetected for so long.So although at this point FG hadnt actually done anything or made any trouble,the sudden revelation of their existence scared the crap out of the Govt,who responded with their typical brutality. As far as I can tell,the FG leader claims to be a superpowered Daoist immortal eagerly anticipating a Christian style apocalypse,is also VERY concerned with matters of racial purity.But my understanding was that they favoured passive martyrdom at the hands of the state rather than attempting active revolution. Or not. I dont actually know Ive never made it to China! Regards,Cloud.

WHAT THE FUCK !!!!!!!! Is this some kind of weird folk-belief about what to do with dead abbots ? Kind of like staking vamps,or absorbing your victims power etc.?Are all high profile daoists potential farmer-chow??Thank fuck that everyone whose ever met me face to face thinks of me as a completely inconsequential non-entity!The survival value of being a Useless Tree is clear(except this guy seemed to be looking for snacks,not lumber)!!

Sean,is all this chatter here actually adressing the issue you wanted to raise? I assume it was in regards to the attitudes of the Chinese establishment to daoists.Is that correct? Regards,Cloud. Awww Shucks

What Im getting at is that daoists dont "need" any position as a static moral stance,as they are not (ideally) driven by an underlying fear of extinction,they are not compusively attached to ANY conventional stance,be it "Selfish" or "Selfless".They can act as they feel appropriate,unclouded by existential fear & moved by deep intuition. Now,you could say this in itself is a form of 'right & 'wrong',in that you have two basic positions to act from,Deep Intuition or Compulsive Fear,each reinforcing itself as it is enacted & embodied.But one has a potential for flexibility & clarity whereras the other does not.And the willingness to relax into Deep Intuition,I think,presupposes some degree of acceptance & reverance for the world (though NOT apathy),so it is definetely life-positive.A position of Compulsive Fear implies to me some kind of rejection of the world,be it the industrialists desire to control or the ascetics desire to escape. So its not nihilism,its just based on a deeper vision than legalism,& thus is threatening by virtue of its unpredictability.A Daoist could be a head of state or a mountain recluse or anything in between,but the issue of remaining in a state of Deep Intuition would remain paramount.Compulsive,fear-driven "need" would exclude that ,as would any social position that reinforces compulsion & life-hatred (Sociopathic dictators may be "relaxed" in their callousness,but they dont strike me as life-revering).

Sifu- I think youve pretty much explained Wikipedia worship right there!! But thats a thing that seems to smack of simple human laziness to me. The thing that Im ranting about on this thread is a bit more "subtle".Im pondering the topic of how the Teacher-Student relationship,a thing often born (initially) of a genuine passion for truth & transcendence of ego,turns into a mutual betrayal of some very basic day-to-day truths and a creation of ego-positions NARROWER than those started off with. In this Im not just looking at the obvious frauds though.Im interested how sincere practitioners of apparently genuine traditions take some seriously fucked up turns.AND IM NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT DISCIPLES.What makes a pseudoguru as well!Why the need to collect disciples & kill off their critical faculties,the critical faculties of otherwise sincere & dedicated people,people really willing to commit to a worthwhile cause,the type of people who could really take you somwhere in mutual collaboration if you could only resist the temptation to subtly manipulate & exploit them! What kind of inner poverty produces a pseudoguru!And how do legitimate transpersonal experiences get appropriated by the ego & translated into disturbing forms.What are the points of vulnerability in the spiritual process,can they be identified & anticipated.Everyone,EVERYONE,will fuck up to one degree or another,but we dont have to reinvent the wheel.We can actually learn from the tragedies of others without going through them ourselves,at least to the same extent.The error & terror of a Jonestown may seem obvious,but the subtle seeds of it are in every human ego,EVERY HUMAN EGO,in less apparent forms. You may not end up drinking Kool-Aid or castrating yourself,but you can still be subject to a needless,avoidable bitterness or a trauma that freezes your ability to learn & feel(I dont believe everyone can learn from any event,some are so horrifically painful that they freeze us up,they are inimical to human growth,"evil" if you like).This is stuff we should be able to spot a mile away!We shouldnt have to repeat it all the frigging time! On that lighthearted note,Im going to bed! Regards,Cloud-on-too-much-sleep-deprivation-Recluse

Sean,would it be fair to say that a "real" daoist ,not being driven by a compulsive self-obsession in any direction,would be hard to pin down in terms of conventional "morals?Like,at any given moment they could appear "selfish' or "selfless",following either apparent "selfdenial" or apparent "selfindulgence",in conventional terms. I mean,either selfish or selfless are both behaviours that spring from a conventional notion of self,a conventional obsession with self,"Im just in it for myself/Im so untrustworthy & must be controlled",both being egoic.The Daoist would be inspired by something else. So socially the Daoist would be hard to predict & control.Im given to understand that Chinese imperial culture has never been comfortable with them.They could be happily withdrawing from social obligation in apparent "selfishness",or savagely criticizing the moralistic pretences & hypocrisy of society with not only words,but actual deeds that would be seen as exemplary & "selfless". What makes mainstream Chinese more uncomfortable,Daoist "selfishness" in withdrawing from social obligation,or their sheer unpredictability on which "moral' stance they take next? Just a bit of speculation Regards,Cloud.

Greetings Sifu.and let me be the first to assure you its VERY difficult to overstay your wellcome in this laid back location. I myself am a belligerent loudmouth with opinions outstripping his experience ( I defy any Bum to disagree with me on that! ) ,and they havent got rid of me yet. A VERY tolerant place Regards,Cloud Recluse.

The thing is,Im actually quite open minded on the whole possibility for radical physical transformation,Im up for considering the possibility of ANYTHING,but Jasmuheen ( how did she get the name,I bet her mum didnt call her that !!) is such an obvious failure on this score! I do suspect that as long as we have a meat body it will be needing conventional fuel to a greater or lesser degree,& Im not as disapointed with this state of affairs as some seem to be ( I like food) .So I would think any bodily immortality trip involves the flesh becoming light ,or something equally funky.I think thats supposed to happen in Dzogchen,isnt it? I think its mentioned in one of Namkhai Norbu's books. So Im open to the idea in some form,but ultimately ,I will only believe it if I see it.Boring little fucker,aint I Regards,Cloud.

Freeform & Pilgrim, Big Thanx for your sentiments here.Still a bit flat im afraid,but more inclined to communicate now,& am actually feeling a TINY bit sexier So,is this a thread anyones actually interested in.I was trying to do 2 things with it.Inform people about Mohan Chandra Rajneesh,as that topic was beginning to clutter up another thread,but more specifically use Rajneesh as an example of the pseudoGuru syndrome in one of its more complex forms,as I think that can be a particularly valuable & constructive debate. But the question is,is anyone actually interested in either of theses topics at the moment? If not,Id rather let it drop Regards,Cloud.