cloud recluse

Glad its useful.When I was much younger,I was initially impressed with the first few CC books.But in retrospect,as a total package (apart from any question of them misrepresenting indigenous traditions) I felt that they reinforced my adolescent fears of emotional vulnerability & heightened my capacities for neurotic isolation.Self-reliance is a necessity,but the Earth is not a sufficient lover,& the desire for contact is not a weakness!In fact,made conscious,its a strength!!!!! Some aspects of his early work can be inspiring fiction,but so is Neitzches ZARATHUSTRA,& Freddy didnt seem to feel the need to present that as feildwork!! Regards,Cloud

Neimad,your timimng is spooky I was just contemplating sending you this as a private message,but now Ill do it on this thread. If you havent allready,I STRONGLY recommend you check out Victor Sanchez's THE TEACHINGS OF DON CARLOS,as well as his THE TOLTEC PATH OF RECAPITULATION.He really makes all that stuff useable & accesible.If CCs tales are inspiring to you,I think you would find this stuff really useful.As well as formulating specific exercises for the individual,he comes up with group practices as well. Sanchez claims to have verified his stuff as authentic indegenous practice,though he also makes his own explicit modifications.Whatever its source,it doesnt seem to have Castanedas morbid fear of contact running through it,while still allowing you to work with the themes CC popularised in a real how-to practical way. Sanchez also wrote the foreward to another practiacl peice called EARTHWALKS by James Endredy full if cool soundind ideas.Seriously,if you find yourself responding to CCs fiction,you really should at least have a go at the Sanchez stuff. Regards,Cloud

Just google Shat Kriyas,that will get you plenty of info

You should read Colin Wilson's THE OUTSIDER.A bit dated perhaps,but I think youd like it.

Uuurrgh.You luck buggers,Im coming up to the Winter solstice,& my room has no insulation.

Cool Im pretty much for everything single thing youve got in here!Still dont like the term"detached" though.I think when you are really open,& have forsaken illusions ,then your REALLY attached for the first time,soaked in the Real.If you make the stage-specific strategy of Detaching from a particular illusion (which I TOTALLY support & advocate) into the goal itself,to BE "detached",you set up another dualism & hold back from the Full Contact thats waiting for you.So I would really prefer to describe the Goal as Full Contact,which ususlly necessitates detaching from specific illusions & compulsions,If you start using Detachment language to describe the goal itself,its possible to get onto all sorts of misery trips. Ian,you must now have arrived at the conclusion that I have a petty obsession with terminology,but I am actually quite sincere in my opinion that Spiritual language desperately needs an overhaul.And I dont think you yourself seriously have a hankering for crucifixion( kinky sod if you do though,Im perfectly satisfied by your average spanking !).But the Detachment lingo does evoke crucifixion to me,whatever the intent of the speaker. Thank you for having the good graces to not simply tell me to fuck off Reagrds,Cloud. Im still obsessed with Cloud Im afraid.I cant help it,hes so fucking sexy

Ah.I actually concur with pretty much everything youve said here except that very last point.This is where we may differ ( this also may seem really trivial on my part,but I really like hammering these things out in the public arena.Im sure Im only a short step away from standing on the street somewhere shouting at complete strangers). When I say "Unfathomable",or express reservations about other terms being nihilistic,or potentially nihilistic,its not that Im particularly concerned that certain terms are 'nice',& Im probably as intolerant of bliss-munchers as I am obsessive about language.Its more that I really do think that the term is more accurate,in that it avoids the patential nihilism of the other terms,and doesnt lay claim to knowledge of where its all headed.I honestly dont know if "It',all of it macrocosmically,is a game or not.I cant see a particular direction in which the World-Process is definetly headed,though I can see some of the possible options. Certainly there is gigantic humour in our situation.Adyashanti spoke of a certain amusing embarresment that accompanied Enlightenment,the huge ironic joke of the ego-strategy.And who knows what other cosmic punchlines await us?But to say its "useless" per se requires more knowledge of the world than I can lay claim to,or a very specific act of faith,which I havent been inspired to make,at least not yet .So thats why Im sticking with Mysterious,dogmatic fucker that I am As to the coolness of the Matrix imagery,how did you find the 2nd & 3rd films in comparison to the first( a bit off topic there,but what the hell)? Regards,Cloud.

Well in that case Neimad I pretty much agree with you,though I wasnt actually"targeting" you personally there.As Ive said in previous posts,its more a certain kind of language that I find loaded with ascetic assumptions.Im pretty much writing this stuff in the heat of the moment,I normally sort through the fallout later at leisure. I still think Castanedas presentation of these ideas is smeared with his own neurosis.Seriously,do a bit of research on the man himself ( if youe inclined),its quite eye opening. Actually,out of general interest,did you arrive at Castaneda independently,or was it through Jake Horselys stuff? One thing I disagree with is the image of the Path being "useless" .The overwhelming Mystery of things certainly outstrips our ability to predict consequences & solidify our explanations,but is it useless,or Unfathomable instead?Either way,your still left with the warriors impeccability if you want to wake up,but "useless' smacks of a certain Nihilism.I think "unpredictable" has the same use but without the potential negativity.Whadya reckon ? Regards,Cloud. Yes,Yes,Yes !!! THANKYOU. Ok,its time to hear from the Man himself.Sean,your definetely a more experienced player than me,what do you think of these analasyis of your perspective? Lets hear it Big Boy!

Id half agree with you here,except Id say that anyone who predicts it either way, easy or hard ,is being ridiculous by virtue of thinking they can predict it.Certainly impeccability is required,but so is ease.BOTH OF EM!!!! Anybody who thinks Waking Up is going to be a Hard Struggle will also be in for a very relieving shock when they are thrown headlong into death,without any need to jump,and discover the obsessive control trip theyve been on all their lives creates so much screaming resistance that their psyche shatters and reality just floods in(as its always trying to do). Impeccability is effort when its driven by a morbid fear of death.If your yogas are exhausting instead of enlivening,look to your own tendencies of self hatred.Do you want to immolate the person you are,do you eagerly anticipate being someone else.are you desperate to dehumanise yourself? once again,what are you scared of?That the Archons/Matrix is bigger than the Dao?piss on the Archons,laugh at them,the Matrix is feeble!! Do it with skill by all means,I AM NOT ADVOCATING PASSIVITY,but dont burden yourself with images & predictions of drastic transformations & self erasure.Castaneda invented that stuff coz he was neurotic,hating & fearing himself & tried to turn his social alienation into a virtue. You dont know when it will be Hard or Easy until each stage comes around.Impeccable.Yes.Puritanical,No.If you hate yourself,you block access to the very material you need to work with to wake up.Self hate & a desperation to disapear are of no use to the Warrior.Power outshines contempt (be it contempt for self or others).Contempt doesnt generate Power. Stay alert,Dont Struggle. Regards,Cloud.

Ok Ian,I agree with the essence of your first 2 points,though Im not sure about the 3rd yet.But one thing I dont agree with,if I read you rightly,is the overall theme I get from your language( no,theres no sign of me giving up argument yet).It seems like you have a huge attachment to the image of The Struggling Seeker,very Judeo-Christian.You seem to be hooked around a "You" that will do a lot of renunciation in order to "get" Enlightenment,while at the same time advocating the Full Contact that Im on about.I suspect your carrying some baggage there man. Full Contact will remove all your baggage in its own good time,you cant "Push the River" as I think they say in Zen.In fact its allready removing your baggage,you just have to drop resistance to it.This is where the discipline comes in,the discipline to stay open in the face of fear. But its as easy as it is hard,& this is what you mightnt like about what Im saying.As far as I can tell ,you only want it to be hard,you dont want it to be easy.Perhaps that reeks of sin to you,or lacks the necessary punitive imagery to assauge some kind of guilt you feel,I dunno. I go totally with Adyashanti on this.If your a hard nut to crack,addicted to strenous self-effort,it will be "Hard",& you wouldnt have it any other way.You have to be broken in order to get anywhere.But why be broken? Its like Meditation,its only "Hard" when you struggle with it.When you release into the process,the 'fuel' for your 'effort' becomes so readily abundant,its no longer an effort.The Dao is superabundant & overflowing.Look at the whole cosmos its allready brought forth in gorgeous,wasteful display. Stop obsessing about self destruction as a goal in itself & get into the Flow.They you will outgrow your illusions in their own good time.And dont worry,this still 'needs" effort & self-discipline to accept whats coming,but it mightnt be the hardship & struggle your ego may desperately want it to be. If Im misrepresenting you I do apologize,and I believe you are sincere in what you say,but is it not possible that if you drop the Struggling Seeker bit you will just Fall Awake in your own good time (Another Adya-ism there).Ive allready done the "I will force myself Awake through personal effort" trip.Its crap!!! It leads nowhere,only to morbid self-obsession.Thats why I go with the Dao instead. Stay alert,but dont Struggle. Regards,Cloud.

Thak you for your patience Cat.I really was using strong language in my initial posts & perhaps that was a bit counterproductive but I am actually starting to think that a lot of the conventional terminology used in western spiritual circles could be a bit outworn.I really would like to reinstate Desire as a spiritual virtue,and clean out a lot of the "life is sin" language that haunts our attempts to come to grips with Yogic traditions. So,in case anybody hasnt guessed,the term "Detachment" is a bit of a bugbear for me.But going off about it seems to be triggering the right kind of debate,so Im sticking to my guns for now Regards,Cloud.

Im not sure,but we may well be using different language to talk about the same thing,& my last posts on this were shameless ranting (I was feeling quite expansive).I will have to ponder your first 3 points a bit & try & come back with something concise & not too wordy.Be patient with me Ian As for point 4,OF COURSE ITS MY OPINION,how could it be anything else I cant "prove' it in any empirical sense,its a metaphysical statement (which doesnt mean it cant be tested for internal consistency though). But its not an opinion borne of a blind faith in someone elses words.all this is drawn from my experience & tested as best I can.The metaphysics Im proposing is an extrapolation from my experince so far.Still a leap of Faith,so to speak,but not a blind one. For me,phenomena are not "just" a dream,or a sinful error.My models of them may be limited,but they are an outpouring of the Limitless in & of themselves,worthy of honour & respect.I luv Blakes "Eternity is in Love with the Productions of Time",this really says it for me,& thats what leads me to Daoism as distinct from other paths.It promises insights from far more experienced critters than me into the experience we seem to be sharing. Of course I think my opinion is "True",otherwise I wouldnt hold it as an opinion.But I also realize it comes from "subjective" experience,with all the qualification that entails. Iwill get back to you soon Regards,Cloud

I assume youve ordered MEDITATION TECHNIQUES OF THE BUDDHIST AND TAOIST MASTERS then.No worry.Its still a good choice with a nifty section on Daoism.Its just that DESIRE is a great intro to Odiers work,& illuminates the connections between Tantra & Zen,paths that are often seen as contrasting.When you look at things from the perspective in DESIRE,a lot of it really comes together.Having said that,I dont know that I necesarily agree with everything Odier says,but thats just me being finicky.I like being finicky.

I suppose I feel that "Karma' is usually another pseudo-explanatory concept dreamed up by the ego to avoid a sense of the unknown,of mystery,or to justify the sufferings of others ("They must be harvesting their bad karma") when we feel too overwhelmed & small to help them. Or not. Cloud. By the way Neimad,out of curiosity,what does your name mean,how did you arrive at it?It intrigues me

Oh come on ! Youve got to give us more than that ! Dont just stop there & leave us hanging you little tease!MORE! WE WANT MORE !!!!! Regards,Cloud.

Hell yes,Life,the Dao,breaks through ALL our stances & positions sooner or later.But this doesnt mean Im dismissive of others pain & fear either,or my own for that matter ( despite being a 2000 year old mist shrouded adept,even I still get the odd twinge ). Full blooded compassion & connection is also part of my yoga.As far as I can figure,the ego is a refusal of contact & connection.This include external contact with others,& internal contact with my own silent depths.The ego wants to avoid the full impact of both of them.A shame really,coz theres no where else to go,and full contact is an inspiration,NOT a"energy drain" or threat or sin or whatever. Thanks for the prompt response,I dig your feline swiftness Regards,Cloud.

I couldnt agree more

No,not at all,Cat.Youve misread me in my enthusiasm I want to make this clear,I AM ALL FOR PRACTICE,its ABSOLUTELY necessary!!! Im all for equanimity & deep meditaive repose,UTTERLY! Thats a cruciial part of the whole thing.But these practices are not just for taking a breather. Now,im all for taking a breather as well,it would be a weird contrivance to refuse oneself that natural cycle.But where practice really takes of is in transcending the sense of a self that has to be "protected" from experience.Im NOT talking about being a reckless twit & squandering your life either though,that also reeks of a compusive avoidance of lifes depths. Riding the waves more smoothly is necesary too.But ultimately its an intermediary practice before diving right in ,WHEN YOU FEEL READY and not before!Riding the Wave is an excellent challenge to the seperative ego,as well as a soother,It can be both.And most people will initially pursue such skills to sooth their overwrought sense of self.COOL.DO IT! But then the practice spontaneously deepens of its own accord,not from some moral imperative,and the whole question of being a seperate rider from the wave comes up. What I was going off about is a lot of talk recently that smelt of ascetisism,of seeing a "detached" state as a goal ,an endpoint,a solution to suffering.This crap turns useful Absorption states into the refuges of cowards. You will see in my post that I actually ADVOCATE yoga ( in the broadest sense of the word).Read it again,ITS NOT AN ANTI-PRACTICE POST!!! Absorption states are great,but ultimately they are best used to challenge the ego,NOT sooth it!! Cat,I dont really know the motives of anyone here until I meet them face to face,nor do i know their life experiences.But i really felt like stirring up the anthill on all this "unattached sex" & the evils of desire business.I want to clarify what people are on about,& rant & rant & rant. Cat,please reply as soon as you can,I want to hear your opinion as soon as possible.Paws or claws,I dint mind either,coz I think your response will be sincere & heartfelt,given what Ive read of your other posts.And anyhow,who else but a cat can burn AND be cool at the same time,& that what Im on about Regards,with perhaps a bit too much verbose enthusiasm for his own good,Cloud

Too bloody right !! The thing I really dig about Odiers little book is that it trounces this morbid "detachment ' thing! Fuck,what are people so FUCKING SCARED OF!!!! I think if you edited all the Eastern texts & replaced the word "Attachment" with the term "Compulsion",all the obedient little seekers wouldnt spend so much time being terrified of involvement with life!!! Compulsion is a stupid spasm that sends you on a futile quest to get what you allready have by looking somewhere else.STUPID! And very,very embarrising. But life itself IS NOT the problem!! And the only time you wont be attached to that is when your dead!! Can you stop breathing,"watch" the desire to breath."spiritually' deny that dirty involvement,& calmly die! If you did,all it proves is that youve misused yoga to be a suicidal dimwit!! For ALL of your life,you will be a living,pulsing ball of need & passion,NO EXCEPTIONS,and that is the whole point,TO MANIFEST,to honour the Dao.Its only when you smear all this glory with neurotic compulsion,turn the whole gorgeous display into a fear trip,that it fucks up,twists it. So could everbody stop crapping on about detachment,and fantasising about becoming a super-seperate ultra-independent unit & just admit theyre SCARED !!ENLIGHTENMENT IS NOT ISOLATION OR IMMUNITY FROM FEELING,no matter how attractive & reassuring that goal is to the Ego!!!This fantasised independence is just COWARDICE,not "warriorship" or "transcendance"!! Rather,Enlightenment is a Super involvement,TOTAL ATTACHMENT to the full energetic reality of this moment,this glorious arising of the Dao,"detaching" only from half-assed illusions (including the "spiritual" ones) that keep us from releasing fully into life.Yoga doesnt curb our sinful impulses,it magnifies them into their full glory. What the fuck are we here,another pack of life-weary gutless ascetics,scared of complexity & disappointment.Yoga should amplify life into its full form,with all the risk & pain that connotates,not erase it. YOUR "EGO" IS YOUR FEAR OF LIFE,OF LIFES ENERGETIC FLUX.Yoga just brings on the flux.No "safety" there,except the abandoning of the hope for immunity to life.STOP TRYING TO MAKE A VIRTUE OUT OF YOUR FEAR!!! Blah,blah,blah,blah.Well I was feeling boisterous,so deal with it So come on all you serene ascetics & unattached sex feinds,tell me why Im wrong & "unspiritual",I fucking dare you Regards,Cloud.

Im not so sure that Daoism has no 'morality' per se.Certainly it doesnt have the punitive karma model that so many people espouse,but neither is it necessarily antinomian.I think Daoism has something much subtler.It very much gets to the spirit behind formal moralities.The Dao,in its immediate consequence for us,is very much about the empowerment that arises from honouring phenomenal existence & releasing self-obsession.Not to earn"good karma" in a hypothesised future life,but to enter fully into life Now,in this moment! Understanding peoples condition as 'straw dogs',hypnotised robots,sleepwalkers,whatever metaphor you want,doesnt mean degrading them or dismissevely exploiting them.They are still an arising of the Dao & still honoured as such.Stealing from them is degredation,not honour,& not caring about it is just solidifying a detached ego in a sociopathic direction.This stance of apathy & egocentricity severs you from the Daos Vitality (as well as possible social consequences) right here & now,not in some speculative future .Without the Vitality that comes from embracing & honouring phenomena,you just wither up into a 'straw dog" yourself,but now with less chance of surmounting your self created isolation! Having met 2 actual Psychopaths in my life,I can say that,despite all their 'succesful' manipulations & abuses of others,they were profoundly miserable & disturbed in their success. In a way,obsessions with "my Karma" seems to me to be another way of creating an ego,another self obsession.Everything around you becomes a means to 'get' good karma,a metaphysical payoff,another form of exploitation but now in a "spiritual" wrapping. The "Karma Accountant" is just as big an exploiter as the callous theif!!!! Both of them are refusing the Daos Vitality,& poisoning the world around them.The theif is just more obvious. Certainly the Dao is flexible & adaptive when it comes to morality,but its not amoral for us here & now.Its just free of petty legalism,& inspired by a positive vision of contact & involvement with life,instead of being driven by a morbid fear of Bad Karma inflicted on a seperate "soul". Anyhow,thats my self-righteous preaching done for the evening.God I love it Regards,Cloud.

Heres a good one from the archives Not actually a sex manual,Daniel Odier's DESIRE:THE TANTRIC PATH TO AWAKENING clarifies the relationship of awareness to embodied energy,how each accelerates the other.To focus awareness on energy, without any desperate grasping for climatic sensations,is the assertion of the enlightened perspective.One does not need to 'detach" so much as focus on the moment without demanding it explode into something else.By expanding & maintaining this stance,the ego is naturally outgrown without grim self-mortification or enforced solitude. Its still a discipline,you dont prematurely engage energies that trigger rapid ego convulsions,but not a grim one.Life-positive without being indulgent Most of the exercises in the book are simply relaxing into a fine awareness of body energies while not indulging the egos desperate fearful compulsion to "make' something of them.Until this "relaxed intesity" is felt & its contrast with ego-desperation understood viscerally,theres no point on going on to those practices more typically thought of as "Tantric". Grounded in authentic Tantric tradition,bloody good read!Any Bums ever checked it out ?Odiers done a few valuable things on Daoist ,Buddhist & Hindu tantras ,while his main language seems to be that of Kashmiri Shaivism. Reagrds.Cloud.

Right there with ya.

Ian,it seems we are in complete agreement I guess Im just really fussy about language that leads to a possible exclusion of the senses & the body,language that denigrates the embodied experience (this is why Im so fond of Adyashanti & so wary of Cohen),and so much "Spirituality" is prone to exactly that. And I really dig your point about using "intergration" as an excuse to retain an ego-stance Regards,Cloud.

Ian,I want to make sure we are actually using the same terms here before semantic confusion ensues By 'personal',Im looking to the intergration of manifest energies initially conceptualised as bodymind.If ones "enlightenment" has to shut these out,its really another attempt at immunity from direct experience & thus another form of "ego",another act of recoil,another dualism.Alternatively,if one accepts them fully into experience,thay arise as wisdom qualities.A good example of this is the being moved by the Hara,Hara undistorted by egoic agenda,that you see in the Aikido of Wendy Palmer & Richard Strozzi Heckler. The opposite of this is to try & erase the Personal instead of intergrating it,an impossible project brought about by the confusing of bodymind energies with "the Ego",the project/strategy of dualistic speration,immunity from experince,rejection of contact etc.When a tradition makes this error,an error very attractive to the "spiritual" ego,you usually get asceticism & self -hate,things easily mistaken as focus & psychological insight into oneself. So the only obstruction IS the 'ego',I wholeheartedly agree with that.BUT thats NOT the same as "personal" energy or Hara.At least in the period described in van der Braaks book,Cohen couldnt deal with personal energy,confused its distorted arising with the Ego per se,and attempted to erase the personal,with the usual cultic behaviour that follows from that. Perhaps if I just used "Hara" instead of "personal" that might be more straightforward. Anyhow,Im not actually denying Cohen can have a transpersonal impact or a capacity for transmission,but at least earlier on he seems to have fallen into a Hara=ego leading to a cultish situation.Many a "serious tradition" has made that blunder,especially as large scale movements. If you cant allow Hara,youve set up another obstruction against the inevitable arising,a fairly standard ego tactic.Youve rejected wisdom. Ian,I hope you have the patience to read this longwinded post,coz I really want to clear up communication Regards,Cloud

As one who might seem like one of your would-be "analysts" I want to make something really clear.I DO NOT claim to know where you are at or the validity of what your doing!!Please do not get that idea As Ive never met you ,that would be too presumptious even for me ( I mean ive taken the title of Recluse,THATS pretty presumptious allready ). Its more a personal reaction to Castaneda-esque lingo,whatever a persons interpretation of it.And thats one of the things Id be intersted to see hammered out here on this thread,given Castanedas popularisation of the term.His language often seems reminiscent of a Catholic ascetic self-hate trip with a fear of the interpersonal.So,does Castanedas "Warrior" recreate self-hate ,and what alternative concepts of Warriorship take that into account ? Regards,Cloud. P.S.As well as Trungpa's Shamballah stuff,has anyone read Daniele Bolelli's ON THE WARRIORS PATH ,or Peter Hobart's KISHIDO:WAY OF THE WESTERN WARRIOR?