cloud recluse

Not even remotely impressed by the Girard bit ( and trying to read Gizoogle hurt my tiny brain ).Certainly the narratives of the New Testament cater to the desperations brought about by the structure of the ego,but the recurring 'mimetic' similarities are the results of deliberate rewrites ! Incidents in the New Testament were DELIBERATELY & consciously rewritten to match Old Testament prophecies & evoke Old Testament comparisons.Thats not to say that the authors didnt have 'noble' motives,but they were writing decades after the events in question that they themselves never witnessed. As for "the rising Christian tide",you have GOT to be kidding!The various different groups associating themselves with Christ sputtered along insignificantly until Emperor Constantine saw sociopolitical advantage in one particular form & violently enforced it.It was a rising Roman tide that needed a new civic religion,ironically because the very success of the pagan mystery-cults had made themselves moribund.Being too elitist,the average citizen wasnt up to them anymore.Pauls "Christianity" was a nice easy option that also offered a clear cut social program.Political opportunism & social engineering gave us Christianity as we know it.Its a good lesson in how the ego weaves stories,and how tyrants create religions,but theres little spiritual depth in the scriptures themselves. I dont deny that the subsequent tradition was sufficient for individual contemplatives to function within it,but that is more DESPITE the tradition,not because of it.And it was careful to contain any mystic in large asylums,oh...Im sorry,that should be "monasteries". ..to prevent the social ramifications of mysticism upsetting the status quo.And just look at Meister Echarts struggles to interpret his own experinces as "Christian"! Didnt fare too well,did he?! Regards,Cloud.

In the spirit of the season,I gotta say Im skeptical.I think Christ was your average jewish nationalist hoping to expel the Roman occupiers with divinely sanctioned militairy force.He failed,and was made an example of with the standard Roman punishment for rebels under the bloodthirsty Pontius Pilate. Paul ,the man who never met Christ, then reformulated the Jesus myth around standard pagan images of the dying-reborn sun god to serve his own psychological needs.When the Romans finally expel the Jews from Jerusalem ,the original Jesus movement collapses,& Pauls Rome-freindly version no longer has opposition. To see ANY creature treated that way is fucking disgusting And Jesus was as divine & as stupid as the rest of us .Sorry to rant,but you might be giving this myth more attention than it deserves.and now Ive got myself all worked up.stick with the Far Eastern perspective Hajji,dont but into this Middle-Eastern incoherency.Without even knowing you,I allready know your better than that. Regards,Cloud.

OK Just to clarify,I never thought you would be unfamiliar with the term Redneck,just possibly unfamiliar with the term Yobbo.My impression of rednecks is that theyve had a "philosophy" to go with their mentality,lots of stuff about America-the -New -Israel,religous nationalism,the evil threats of ideology- X,whereas the Yobbo,until recent times,had the same blind,bullish agression,but only in the past 10 years or so has started to formulate a more explicit concept of "Aussie culture" to justify it.These sentiments have been bubbling away beneath the surface for a while,but now their becoming disturbingly organised & vocal.So Cam,am I corect in my image of rednecks ,cause if so,the Yobbo is starting to emulate them. Hajii,I do admit we have some pretty choice expressions,though the over-marketing of fair-dinkum-strewth-by-gees-by -jingoes-by-crikey-fair-crack-of-the-whip-sport-throw-another-prawn-on-the-barby-cobber-maaaaate! can get a bit much

Christ Im longwinded !

Ok,heres my attempt. Enlightenment is the dropping away of the self-project,the constant theme of trying to freeze everything,including transpersonal states,into a self-image,a Final Solution to experiences constant flux.A deep inner contraction finally lets go,gives up on its constant manipulation of experience,stops generating noise,and a vivid Emptiness becomes obvious as Self.A deep fundamental stress dissolves,and specific restrictive conditioning drops,letting energy in on its own terms,not the egos. So now theres all this energy rampaging through the body,lots of fun!Now the body has to accomadate it,come up to its level with real physiological change. In theory,is there any limit to this adaption ? Could the 'immortalising' of body energy be the 'game' of the enlightened,pursued as an angst free experiment into lifes possibilty,with no gurantee of success,living 'as' an Immortal,simply to express Enlightenment ? Everone 'plays' with energy,but the enlightened perhaps take it in a radical direction free of conventional limits ? Have never met any physical immortals,and grasping for it seems neurotic at best,but the symbol seems to forebode something.None of that Alchemy seems necessary for the dropping of duality,but does it predispose its practitioners to a particular direction post-enlightenment? Whats all that Alchemy finally for ? Does it set up a new direction that Enlightenment then catalyzes ? Fearfully awaiting the responses of actual practitioners,Cloud.

Perfect! 'Drudgery', exactly how I felt in the trips afterglow.I had initialy thought tripping would inspire a deeper commitment ( with the hidden hope of not having to face my own resistances), & instead my conditioned patterns of bodily energy reappeared with greater complacency.The thought of any kind of yoga was indeed felt as drudgery.And when the glow wore off alltogether,I just wanted more acid,mdma,whatever.I just wanted to occlude my conditioning,not face it.And nowadays,I definetely DONT have the Kidneys for this stuff Regards,Cloud.

Damn right I have It came at the perfect time actually,clarified a few questions & kinda put the hook in me.He is definetely someone I would like to meet in person,& Im now tracking down his books.I get a "big picture" feel from him ,a sense of orientation,& sitting without Manipulation has been refreshing.mine was a very "concentrated" practice under which I was starting to chafe,so Adyas approach has been a relief,but also a challenge.All good stuff And your all still spoilt Regards ,Cloud.

ok,Ill say "Yobbo" if you like.Didnt know if you Yanks would appreciate the lingo(sorry if that was condescending,perhaps I should give people more credit.). Ever since the Twin Towers,our socioploitical landscape is coming to resemble Americas,& I felt the term "redneck" would convey the the type I was dealing with.Or am I digging myself into a deeper hole by misinterpreting "redneck".Its come into parlance over here,what is the actual stereotype associated with it in America?? Regards,Cloud.

Heh heh,you got my sympathy there. How about aggressive redneck towering over your prone form angrily demanding to know what your doing while you have an 8 hour fear trip ...I can say hell Still not sure if that guy actually existed Regards,Cloud

Please dont think Im making any casual recommendations,psychedelics are POTENT for anyone,& will be nothing but hellish for some!! Were anyone to actually take me seriously (most of my freinds think Im a buffoon ),I would advocate Practice & no drugs whatsoever! But people are curious & will ask questions,& deserve a lot better answers than the orthodox ones.Ive known hardcore trippers for a coupla decades (& I mean FUCKING hardcore!) with no overt damage,& Ive known apparently stable people plunge into long term psychosis ( some are still there) from a single trip ! They ARE dangerous !!! Having said all that,some of the above mentioned Hardcore are now looking for other options. And I myself,nevera big user at any point,became aware quite early that tripping was creatin a kind of "voyeuristic" approach to Visionary phenomena.Yes it shook up my specific identity,but my basic egocentricity was being subtly reinforced. I suspect my pre-drug meditation practice (I didnt touch drugs till my mid-to-late 20's) made me sensitive to that development quicker than non-sitting users. Regards,Cloud

Im just going to quickly dart in here & slip in my bitter & pathetic jealousy.Being Downunder,& not likely to resums wandering anytime soon,I can only hope Adya is driven out of the USA by one of your horrible winters,& comes here to enjoy one of our wonderful summers You guys are spoilt,SPOILT GODDAMMNIT Regards ,Cloud.

I have to agree.The drugs are definetely "easier",but then they wear off & your conditioning kicks back in.This is not to say that they cant have a specific theraepeutic effect on a particular individual,but the long haul really requires the Yoga's to unwind your bodymind.In my limited use ,I found that the psychedelic afterglow made me complacent with an increased capacity for self decption. While Im skeptical about some of the popular horror stories, I no longer touch the stuff. As for Watts himself,my impression was he initially eschewed regular zazen,started succumbing to alcholism & depression,then privately resumed the practice much later in life ( re GENUINE FAKE by Monica Furlong).One gets the quite saddening picture that for all the doors he was crucial in opening for others,he never got the full benefit himself But none of this is an anti-drug rant.For the right person,they can be a lifechanging catalyst & well worth the sideeffects. Regards,Cloud.

DO NOT regret this thread This is EXACTLY the kind of debate I look to Tao Bums for ,especially as a newbie! And while I dont KNOW the truth on these matters,they strike enough of a chord to inspire actual practice in me.So I wanna see all the learned opinions of Daoists far more experinced than me.This is a GREAT idea for a thread ! Regards,Cloud.

Thats it,Im sold Especially as one of my housemates has volunteered to go halves in the price The more Yang approach I felt in Iyengar is not what I really want from a yoga routine per se,& Im a sucker for (almost) anything labelling itself Daoist.Big thanx Sean & Irkk for the feedback Regards,Cloud.

Have only just spotted YIN YOGA dvd at a local bookstore.Is anyone experienced with it?Its a bit pricey for me to buy on impulse,but if its accesible to a somewhat inflexible beginner Id certainly give it a go. Regards,Cloud.

Not experienced in any depth with walking zazen.Have only used it to maintain mindfulness between sits & it never took me as deep as Sitting.Does it have any particular effect on ones energy that would smooth transition? Regards,Cloud.

[quote name='DanC' date='Apr 14 2006, 01:54 PM' post='12854' ... it makes sense to take a while to come back to your senses once you have finished such a tranquil and cleansing practice. Ive just found this out for myself this morning.Today,for the first time,I added about 7 minutes of Yogani's spinal breathing to my usual morning Sit(felt it was time to add alchemical dabblings to my "contemplative" approach).Promptly stood up afterwards to go chat to a housemate,felt way more relaxed than usual,till I started talking,then suddenly got a headache!NEVER happened before!Transitions usually been smooth.Adding the spinal breathing certainly took me deeper,& that was my first attempt Should have taken some quiet time,the discomfort hung round a lot longer than necessary.But now I have some inkling of how potent this stuff will be,VERY encouraging Regards,Cloud.

Greetings from one Newbie to another Just glanced at Sigrists site,looks intruiging,& I swear Ive heard the name before but cannot place it.Is he a fairly well known critter ? Not very experienced on the alchemical side of things,& I find Chia's books a bit intimidating.But I am having a serious look at Ken Cohens stuff & am quite taken with it. What are your opinions on the Daoism/Buddhism debate,Coz Im REALLY opiniated on that topic Regards,Cloud.

Having a healthier conception of ethics could have stopped me badly damaging the lives of others at various times,not just my own.Nondual experience in itself doesnt seem to require any ethical preperation,but its subsequent embodiment certainly does.So establishing that ethical conception first could be seen as a "leap of faith" in the nondual,introducing a degree of congruence before actual direct experience,as long as that approach also has the flexibility to move with direct insight when it occurs.Perhaps Im so emphatic about this because of my own regrettable actions.Apologies if Im starting to sound too preachy,but I think youve brought up a really crucial point Regards,Cloud.

Exactly ! Love ! Thanx for pointing that out Sean,coz thats where the ethical question kicks in ,ethics that reflect that love,ethics that are congruent with that force. So in those times when I lose awareness of that effortless,abundant love,when I no longer feel it directly as I begin to recoil from empty manifeststion into "safer/easier" masks,ethics can snap me awake to where Im at,expose what Im locking myself into.Ethics may not constitute core awareness in themselves,but they stop me damaging the world around me & causing stupid,needless misery.Ethics call me back to a Source greater than themselves,Love,and that reorienting function (or lack of it) allows me to evaluate any particular ethical code.Ethics as a living Yoga,not a dead weight of Thou Shalt Nots. Regards,Cloud.

My experience of the core is that it doesnt "want" in the deficient "I need x to complete me" sense,and I have to relax those compulsions before I experience the core.But once there,the effortless abundance of the core simply expresses itself in whatever situation is arising.The core is often felt in my body ,not as an individual "soul",but as a kind of personal gateway to something larger.Its qualities change & flow in any given moment ,due to its alignment with the Impersonal,but it is the change & flow of Personal qualities & actions.Little ego issues are the discordant compulsions that assume defficiency,& thus obscure core impulses with their neurophysiological noise. Sometimes core experince is quiet,sometimes it is passionate.It requires emptiness to first perceive it,but also the ability to then embody it in action,to not cling to formlessness.Thats my experince of it sofar,the empty core of my bodymind inspiring an effortless,fearless kind of passion for life,except when I fuck it all up with my numerous fears. So,what do you other guys mean by "Core"? Anything like this? Regards,Cloud.

Exactly! and its that flowing core,'"empty" of rigid self-images,that becomes the Daoists final source of ethical direction,ideally to the point where ethics no longer have to be dwelt upon, much as personal will ideally becomes so refined & congruent with the core that 'self' itself can be 'forgotten'', no longer requiring deliberate attention.Of course,thats the ideal,& its an ideal easily twisted,thus the use of an ethical structure while core congruence is still maturing.You dont want to load up on remorse at a deep level & have it pounce upon you as you start to enter that level later on down the track.Its not fear of vengeful judgement Im talking about,but rather the discovery that you have blindly polluted your own inner condition. This all presupposes there is some'Truth',some objective aspect,to the human condition.It presupposes something deeper than social constructs.It is not simply an absence left behind after postmodernist deconstruction,but language can only orient you towards it,not contain it. Anyhow,Ive probably contradicted myself & my visions getting blurry.I dont know if any of this makes sense so Im going to bed !! Regards,Cloud

Have you seen Huston Smiths 'Beyond the Post-Modern Mind'.It has direct bearing on what youve said & it might appeal to you.Its from the "Traditionalist" school of metaphysics,& I cant agree with everything they seem to stand for,but the book itself is an excellent collection of chapter length essays on modernist empiricism,the post-modern response to it and the knowledge claims of spirituality.Its a bit of a dry read,but fascinating if your interested in the competeing truth claims of these 3 perspectives,Its overall spiritual epistemology,while framed in very Traditionalist terms,is well worth the effort IMO.

Actually,what are you getting at Cat? Are you saying Im just being a longwided pedant,or do you think Im cooking up dodgy excuses for sorcery?

Sorry ,i wasnt being too serious either,though perhaps my dismal performace in both sexual yoga & influencing people makes Crowley a threatening topic I find it far easier to waffle on about ethics,so the discussions on this thread I find particularly relevant,but Im not seriously trying to tell anyone what to say. Damn right its sophistry,sophistry is FUN Come on,you cant tell me sophistry isnt fun!Go on,let me have just a little bit of sophistry,pleeeaaase.