cloud recluse

No problem. Im just interested in exploring it, but want to be reasonably sure Im not wasting my time. My primary interest is in the health angle & the 'authenticity' of the system. So anything that contributes to that is an answer Regards, Cloud

Actually, here is a questuion for the Australians. Is anyone here experienced with Erle Montaigues Tai Ji,both as a health sysytem & as a fighting style ? Having watched excerpts on you tube & so forth, I love the way he teaches & explains things. But does it work ? I have no idea how to assess such things,I dont know what to look for. Feedback anybody ? Regards, Cloud

Returning is the Motion of the Dao. If your sincerely 'doing' that, your succesfully 'doing ' the only thing that can be 'done'. Regards,Cloud

Always true

Your probabaly going to have to go into more detail on exactly how to practice, but the first thing that springs to mind is doing your energy work first,the immediately following it with a fairly decent meditation period. Perhaps even lessening the length or intensity of the energy work. It sounds like you react EXTREMELY sensitively to energy work,so cutting back a bit wont detract from it, & the meditation should enhace the feeling anyway. Cultivate a little energy first, then savour its glow deeply in the meditation period. With less deliberate energy work, & more meditation, your sensitive system should be able to get the best of both worlds. I say this because I think I have the same reaction as you do, at least in terms of sensitivity. Regards , Cloud

A gentle breeze.Exactly, Yes! Ive had 'fireworks' before, but they were still very dualistic experiences. This was gentle. But I didnt / couldnt explore it much. I didnt really feel inclined. Perhaps this was the 'shallowness' of it.Or rather the shallowness of my prior cultivation . Yes ? No? My normal urge to analyse seems less urgent. Hard to tell,but not particularly worried about it Regards,Cloud

Thats INTENSE. How old were you at the time of your ordination ?

Heres the question for me. Were You looking "at" It, or were You It? I know language is limited , but thats one distinction that can be made ,even though it will never be a full description. To me, thats the big one. I was no longer seeing, there was just one being/non- being, as void & form simultaneously. "I" wasnt "looking at" any object, though thats what preceded it .Any "Watcher" fell away , no longer anybody "having" an experience . At the same time there was an understanding that this still wasnt 'deep', that it could go much 'deeper',that it was still 'shallow' for some reason. Yet this did not detract or negate it in any way . Work that last bit out Regards, Cloud

Anyhow: Getting back to the more generalised topic of being Aussie Daoists..... Are there any who have yet to declare themselves? Any shy souls that havent revealed their downunder status yet ? Is there anything distinct or problematic about being a Downunder daoist ? Are we the spiritual arse-end of the world, Or do we have something unique to contribute ? Are you a moon-hugging new-agers festooned with crystals & reeking of patchouli ? Or are you "fair dinkum aussie blokes n' sheilas " baking in the sun ? Regards, Cloud

Procurator & Spectrum; Thank you both for your acknowledgment Its strange, in that I feel an urge to tell people about this , but cant really find much to say, as the whole thing felt 'Obvious' & somehow shouldnt need explaining . Does that make any sense ? Ive tried to explain it to two other people face to face, but felt a conflict of motivation. By which I mean one part of me felt all eager to communicate this, while another was puzzled at why such a discussion would be necessary. Why would you try & explain water to a fish, isnt it allready obvious & utterly commonplace ? Its not a 'dilemma', just odd. Regards, Cloud

I had a big head energy experience comparable to this a few times after doing an exercise from Robert Masters NEUROSPEAK. Except it kicks in when you stand up & walk about. The head suddenly feels vast, almost presurised,expanding & conratcting with the breath. My relationship to gravity changed, I felt like my body & spine was being pulled upwards & supported by me head. My body became a relaxed rope kind of trailing along underneath my "Head-Blimp", but not in a passive way. No wider range of felt chi though,it was focused around the head,a sphere of intense awareness pulsing in & out of the skull. All VEERRY cool & smooth Regards,Cloud

Its really gratifying to hear people discussing Odiers stuff. I read DESIRE a few years ago & was really inspired by his image of Enlightenment as a kind of "Full Contact" rather than an evasive "Detachment". It made perfect sense to me, as Enlightenment cannot a special state to be 'attained' & clung to ( thus making vulnerable to loss,& not a real freedom ). His image of Enlightenment as a surrender to full contact, the 'ego' being an evasive mechanism that recoils from the immense numinosity involved, seems far more rational & feasible than Enlightenment as some kind of super-immune state where nothing will ever hurt you again. I would say if your getting into Odiers stuff, start with DESIRE, then do TANTRIC QUEST, & finish off with NIRVANA TAO. Regards, Cloud

This is really intruiging stuff..My only problem is my own scientific illiteracy. Is all the neurochemistry stuff thingamajiggers that shes talking about valid science? I accept fully that shes going beyond current science in her proposals, & I have no problem with that. My question is about the accuracy of some of the 'conventional' material shes presenting. Is it accurate or not ? Im too ignorant to know. Admittedly part of me wants it to be accurate, as its a fascinating hypotheses that she then extrapolates from it, with a practical application. Anyone with enough orthodox science background to comment ? Regards, Cloud

Now this is intruiging stuff ! Qi-Roids ! I want me some of that! Ive never really been much of an "Alchemist", Ive always been more of a Contempltive Daoist. So Im not really experienced with all the different Chi Gung techniques. But I do find that my system reacts quite strongly , so Im always wary of overheating. Could you please go into specific details on exactly how you draw out the yang chi ? How you pump it into the muscles ? In a beginner-freindly language It would be really cool if you could . Regards, Cloud

Adeliade ? Another Downunder Daoist ? Anyhow,I have one & only one recommendation for a "Beginner" .To give you an intial & immediatelu useable orientation, I say check out Adyashanti. Particularly the Book-CD set TRUE MEDITATION from Sounds True. Although he originated in Zen, I find him to be a very "pure " & uncluttered Daoist. Regards,Cloud

Alas, Im working 10 hour shifts 4-5 days a week( Im actually typing this at work ) ,& havent really seen ANYONE for a while But its definetely a plan. Probabaly for the Holidays. Regards, Cloud

Ahh ,this is so gratifying. Downunder Daoists Currently stuck in melbourne myself. Longest period of being localised anywhere Ive had in a while. Regards,Cloud

So, does anyone want to talk big-name Gurus, the good & the bad in them ? The guys who seem to start with radical insight but then fizzle or explode . IM NOT TALKING ABOUT SIMPLISTIC MUCKRAKING HERE,I have NO interest in that.Its more about the stumbling blocks that await us all from the very SUCCESS of our yogas. Particularly how valid transpersonal events come with their own subsequent risks, & to what extent we can prepare for this beforehand. I figure if we look at the 'Big Boys', we may see these very patterns lit large. I have my own pet theories ( ripped off from others), & I think there is genuinely valid reasons for a BALANCED discussion of some VERY complex & influential charachters. Anyone up for it ?

I love this point, because now we are really getting into it. Bear in mind that Cultivation & Mindfulness cannot be Enlightenment in themselves. And its not a question of changing your FUNDAMENTAL nature at all. Enlightenment is the dropping of a futile theme, egoity ( in the Eastern sense of "Ego", not Western psychologies) is a contrived struggle we inflict on ourselves. Enlightenment liberates your fundamental nature, making it clear & obvious. The only change is the dropping of an unreasonable burden. The 'ego' is not your fundamental nature. Enlightened morality would be no longer acting AS IF you were the ego,no longer engaging in the ego-projects that tie us in ugly knots, no longer living from its bitterness & fear, EVEN IF BITTERNESS & FEAR STILL ARISE AS CONDITIONED HABITS. This includes not convulsing in shame when old habits still arise, the shame that tempts us into social & mental evasion. So i suppose,for me, Enlightened Ethics are a kind of ongoing Yoga. THATS MY POINT. Now, does it make any sense ?

Xuesheng, I reckon youve touched on a very important question here. It may actually involve afew specific issues, so I will beg your patience while I pretty much make it up as I go along. I think there IS a 'morality' of Enlightenment, though not necesarily as a legalistic code. Essentially, if you have an exotic experience in one 'part' of your life, but the rest of your day-to-day Intentionality contradicts it. its not Enlightenment.. To have a Vision of unity, but spend most of your actual time exemplifying radical seperation is not Enlightenment.. The "morality" of Enlightement would be a theme, flexible but consisitent, of unity, of non-obsession. If my day to day intentions ( whatever the consequence they end up as ) are based on avision of internal poverty, of desperate compusive obsession, then it CONTRADICTS the spiritual visions I may have temporarily experienced. If I am Enlightened , my Intentions would be congruent with that vision. Now my Intentions may not always work out as planned ,& I will still have unconscious material yet to emerge, BUT WHETHER OR NOT I ADMIT MY ERRORS & ACKNOWLEDGE MY INEVITABLE SHORTCOMINGS (which the aforementioned "Big Boys" seem to have serious difficulty with ) would be the deciding factor. Having a vision of the possibilties of Enlightenment, and then deliberately opting for Egoity, is not CONGRUENT with that vision. "Morality" would then be the training of your Intentionality to reflect that Vision in the interpersonal sphere AND ones own intrapsychic sphere, the social & the psychological. So perhaps thats not 'morality' in the comventional sense, but I think it does reflect a kind of standard, one of CONGRUENT INTENTION. In practical terms it would be fully Accepting your own humanity,& fully acknowledging the humanity of others.Not in an indulgent sense,but in a responsible sense. Another broader theme that inform on Enlightened ethic would be Reverence, a valuing of phenomena as the endless productions of the Dao. Etenity in Love with the Productions of Time, as per William Blake. Osho seemed to show considerable cruelty & contempt for his disciples & the natural world, once the intial comforting 'glow' of his experince faded,& he was thrown back onto his own humanity again. And Da Free Johns tantrums are pretty well attested to. Its one thing to have a tantrum, its another thing to deny it.WHY ARE THESE GURUS SO CRUEL TO THEMSELVES. they really seem to make erasing human feeling part of their aspirations ! So, doesnt all this hint at a kind of morality, the consequence of Enlightenment for the human condition ?

Actually, one issue this is brings up is that of Gurus reinforcing patriachial programming in their female students through sex. There is a great book WOMEN AND MADNESS by Phyllis Chesler. It makes the point that, in a patriarchail society, women are programmed to seek,please & unite with father figures.An essentially disempowering program that is further amplified by sexual abuse & manipulation. Now you can legitimately argue that consenting sex between adults, including guru & disciple, isnt 'wrong' . But for a guru, whatever their intention, to reinforce this classic program is incredibly destuctive & selfish. Chesler doesnt address gurus specifically in her work, shes more concerned with Psychologists that seduce their patients, but the equivalence & relevance here is blindingly obvious ! Why cant an alleged 'Guru' have a fairly basic insight into the damage thay can do & so easily avoid ? Wouldnt it be nice to have qualities like WISDOM & INSIGHT into the disciples condition! Cant we expect at least that from someone purporting to be a teacher. If you fancy yourself as a 'Teacher', you should at least have the insight to be able to acknowledge your own adolescent wank-fantasy & NOT inflict it on the vulnerable !!!! Using trusting students for porn is pretyy pathetic. !! I dont have a problem with rambunctious rabelasian gurus, I just expect a bit more from them than teenage egoity. Hell,so am I, but its not stopping me But if you can actually admit that you are on a bad trip, that allready puts you way ahead of some of 'Masters". FEET OF CLAY is an excellent choice too.

I was intially tempted to call it "When Good Gurus attack" Seriously though. I have got the impression that the damamging gurus, the ones who,in actual personal contact, seem to damage the vitality of their disciples, are usually male. Are there many destructive female gurus out there ? Anyone know ?

Youre timing is truly spooky Ive only just'discovered ' ACT myself,am picking up Hayes book end of next week,& am seriously considering some training in it thats being offered locally. If I go through with that (end of this year/start of next) I will post here with all the enthusiasm of any newly hatched fanatic Anyone actually experienced it yet ?

Groovy. Crowley & Rajneesh are good examples of genuine spiritual intent mixed in with other motives. This is the kind of meaty stuff Im interested in. OK,basic conversation starter; Potent transpersonal experiences ( with both Da & Osho it seems to have been kundalini related....sort of) occuring in a psyche that fears its own human vulnerabilities are quickly appropriated in trying to 'remove' that human need from the sense of self. The guru-trip ( to distinguish this from valid gurus) is the use of archaic spiritual models to justify this. Fleeing the risks of intimacy usually involves pursuing the acquisition of power, building up a nice,safe inhuman wall.

I would seriously recommend THE GOLDEN GURU if you want a balanced assessment by someone who was neither sannyasi nor cynic,who was involved but never 'joined'. Its not a crude guru-bash at all. But this is drifting WAY off Michael Winn. I do think its a productive area of discussion though. Is anyone interested in a Rajnessh thread. I want to emphasise that I myself AM NOT interested in knee-jerk guru-bashing ! I just think that rajneesh is an excellent example of potent transpersonal experences, accompanied by genuine insight, but some destructive developments . I DO NOT have a problem with luxurious indulgence either ,but that is not what Im concerned about in the case of Rajneesh. Is anyone interested in a more detailed discussion ?