cloud recluse

I just wanna say I am really really REALLY appreciative of this thread right now.Over the last 6-12 months or so,Ive actually been experiencing a LOT of anger,for a whole heap of reasons,& have become very impatient & antisocial. Quite a 'Recluse" actually So much so with the anger that I havent even felt like posting here at Taobums much,simply because I feel like anything I write is just going to turn into an angry,doctrinairre rant,essentially me looking for an argument And thats despite this being one of the far more chilled-out flame-free places,overwhelmingly populated by polite & considerate people! Therefore this thread is actually quite useful to me right now. So before I dive back into seclusion,BIG THANX Regards,Cloud.

Greetings Mal, Just thought Id breifly emerge from seclusion to say hello to another Downunder Daoist Regards,Cloud

Taomeow, No I Havent actually tried it yet.In fact Ive decided to 'digest my head' in a slightly more gentle way for a while.No hacking at my skull with psychedelic crowbars any time soon,I dont really feel up to it. To be perfectly honest,its a somewhat turbulent skull at the moment,so psychedelic amplification isnt really required I pretty much concur with your observations on use & misuse I think.

This all seems to be getting away from your original question of whether or not the Trimondis are misrepresenting Thurman ,whether or not hes trying to repackage a medieval theocracy ( theological details aside.thats all a 'buddocracy' would really amount to) & sell it as a 'post-modern' alternative. Your obviously getting something of value out of his material,but then Hatha Yoga is valuable while the politics of the Bhagavad Gita is pretty much Fascism ! So what are you really trying to get out of this guy,yoga or politics? And if its politics,what do you think he is actually proposing ? Is 'orthodox' Tibetan Buddhism really bound up with medieval feudalistic crap ( pretty much like every other Asian wisdom tradition ),& if so,how do we sift through it effectively? A person can have a deep spiritual impulse.a truly sincere & genuine one,and still come up with some atrocious ideas,including ideas in the political sphere. Is this the case with Thurman or not ?

Gotta say nothing in it strikes me as particularly radical.The child in us always longs for some inflated parent-figure we can surrender thought & responsibility to.And turning the clock back to pre-democratic forms is popular amongst the insecure when its cast in a romantic light. In the theological sphere,there are certainly distinctions to be drawn between deist systems,like medieval catholoicism,& nondeist,like medieval buddhism.Very relevant to individual practitioners & communities of believers who wish to voluntarily practice some particular spiritual path in the course of their private lives. But politically,the difference is f^#k-all! Someone feels entitled to be a dictator coz hes the vicar of Christ,someone else because he is an incarnate tibetan deity.Both would be f^$#*&g useless if granted political power in a democratic world.Yogic skill in exotic states has nothing to do with administrative skill or social insight. Recreating the medieval backwater of the Tibetan state run by pseudo-"celibate" men whose private religious beleifs have appropriated the place of public political discourse does not appeal.Its not radical or post-modern,just retarded.Though I can see its appeal to blissed out newagers,for whom thinking is such a cruel burden. If the claim is true,& Thurman IS promoting a buddhist dictatorship,he can go f#$k himself! I might go to him for Yogic advice,but in the socio-political sphere,he would be a dimwit. Yes it would probably be good if our politicians got yogafied.But who says a yogi would make a good politician. Though others may have thought so,Fascist Occultism and its Close Relationship to Buddhist Tantrism

Spyrelx, Not tried it as yet. I was researching it a few years ago to help a junkie "freind" (whose since burnt & slandered me bigtime),& was so taken with it that I was also contemplating it myself (but not as a chemical dependency cure).Anyhow,my 'best laid plans' collapsed,& my life entered a phase not conducive.Its still a "test" I want to put myself through though,but its now been shelved for quieter times Regards,Cloud.

If anyone wants to check that out,tryThe Buddhocratic Conquest of the West As with anything like this,check the sources & draw your own conclusions. I copped some flak for drawing peoples attention to this one on that thread,it seemed like a taboo topic,but it all came from people not willing to even look at it.Ironically,the only person at the time who actually had something to do with the Dalai Lama (Wayfarer),& who had quite a positive experience apparently,was one of the few people willing to say that it was a legitimate area of inquiry!

I remember gold,frankincense & myrrh,but when does Jesus come up against cinnibar ?

You have simply got to check out DMT:THE SPIRIT MOLECULE. Cant remember the authors name of the top of my head,but it would definetely contribute to what youre looking at.Details clinical experiments with synthetic DMT,but also has informed speculation about the role of the naturally occuring DMT in the human brain,particularly at birth & death,as a kind of 'soul doorway/downloader'. Regards,Cloud

Snowmon, if your going to roll the psychdelic dice,Ayahuasca is definetely one to have a crack at,but you might also might have a look at Iboga.Ayahuasca is a mighty & demanding purgative of both mind & body,& Iboga/Ibogaine is a lifetime of psychotherapy in one trip.Whether or not you survive it,you definetly wont be "glumphing" anymore.Your cage will be rattled BIGTIME. Now this wont necessarily enhance your awareness in any yogic sense,but it will give your personal psychology one hell of a big stir !! The reconciliation of psychological material MAY free up your attention for meditation,but that assumes you have a stable practice to begin with. There is definetely a psychotherapeutic value to skilled psychedelic use,& its now sheer ignorance to say otherwise.But its still VERY demanding,not at all fun if its Ayahuasca or Iboga,& its still not Yoga. Though,as that Total Champion Of Awareness,Baba Ram Dass ,pointed out,you can do most yogas so that they dont really 'do' you,your cage remains intact.But quality psychedelics wont leave you any room to hide in! Check out Pinchbecks BREAKING OPEN THE HEAD for a more historically recent look at the advantages & drawbacks of this stuff.Cracking read too (though his later religious obsessions give me pause). Regards,Cloud

Its looking like Sydney for me,Im actually a bit closer to there now,but Melbourne would also be pretty cool,as Id have tons of options for free accomadation,& none for Sydney.

Clarity & directness are great,but I think your being a bit simplistic about the potential function of words here. Certainly,there is useless talk that does indeed fill your mind with garbage,& yes it usually amounts to some kind of avoidance of actual practice,I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT ONE !! But a skilled teacher can use words,can use dialogue,to UNDO the presuppositions that interfere with practice.Now I dont know enough about Sailor Bob or Krishnamurti to comment,but this certainly seems to be what Adyashanti is doing. ANY student will probably come to a teacher ALLREADY weighed down with words,but Adyas dialogues seem to accelerate the process of "relaxing" ( I cant think of a better word here,sorry) into a process of a radical UNknowing,a dropping of your compusive word-web.If hes 'filling' the mind with anything,its a garbage-extraction program,a process of unravelling. ANY teacher will speak,will spout forth words,will have an impact on the word-web the student has enmeshed themseves in.But there are different kinds of impact. And now Ive become too wordy,but its a point you should seriously consider.His words ARE an enhancer of real practice,I dont really know about Bob & Krish though.But Adya is all for meditation. Regards,Cloud.

Has anyone had a look at Joseph Chilton Pearce's MAGICAL CHILD MATURES,or his more recent THE BIOLOGY OF TRANSCENDANCE ? Read these just recently,& although Im more than a bit wary of his starry eyed adulation of Muktananda,his ideas of how healthy child-rearing facilitates a natural unfolding of transpersonal awareness is fascinating stuff.His take on the neurobiology of spirituality has certainly caught me attention.His take on spirituality itself though seems a bit naive. Regards,Cloud

I think Ill start weeping my tears of gratitude right about now For me,it will be either Sydney or Byron Bay I suspect.Any other Downunder Daoists interested? Yours In Ecstatic Gratitude,Cloud Recluse

Actually Yoda,I would seriously suggest looking at YUGA:AN ANATOMY OF OUR FATE,by Marty Glass.It essentially updates QUANTITY,which was written back in the 30's or 40's I think. YUGA really assembles together a lot of comtemporary cultural critics & interprets them as "unconscious prophets of the Kali Yuga".Its VERY compelling stuff. Of course,one has to bear in mind that the post-Guenon Traditionalist take on the Kali Yuga is a very idiosyncratic one,but it is stil well worh consideration. Regards,Cloud

I think by the time you reach 21 years of age,& frontal lobe development has finally stabilised in a consistent ,reliable form,you can start to consistently access manifesting power.Before that its pretty shaky for most people,especially kids.And personal manifesting power is still a limited capacity of a dualistically defined creature. As Ive said ( in somewhat angry language at the time ) in th Secret of Conscious Co-Creation thread,this movie actually makes some fundamental errors & blurs some crucial distinctions. But I suppose it is an effective 'feel - good' flick for the New Age crowd,& could certainly get people going in a creative direction. The concepts need a bit of refinement though,& perhaps that was outside the scope of the film. Regards,Cloud

OOOhhh. Guenon & The Traditionalists. Youre opening up a whole can of worms there

[split topic from John Chang Video - sean] YES,YES,A THOUSAND TIMES YES !!! ( A bit arse-kissy on my part,bit its a most praiseworthy paragraph ). Very gratifying to see a distinction between Enlightenment & Evolution! Sean,would it be feasible to say that Enlightenment can facilitate any subsequent evolution by relieving our explorations of the burden of having to make our ego feel secure? We stop cramping everything that arises with our fear agenda,& get into lifes possibilities ( both 'mundane' & 'exotic') as an act of celebration,an embrace of life for its own sake. Perhaps,while complex,'advanced' or even "Immortal" yogas may well unfold something miraculous,they are not in & of themselves Enlightenment? Or maybe that the less 'crampy' & rigid your ego,the easier it is to perform them? We can evolve without Enlightenment,but Enlightenment frees up evolution dramatically? Or something along those lines? Perhaps? Regards,Cloud

Coz Enlightened folks will take some time to clarify what Enlightenment is NOT So this is not so much trying to fathom the unfathomable,but to dispel resistances to the Unfathomable in you when it stirs. We can never "get" Enlightenment,but we can cease to resist the process when in awakens in us,& so allow it to Awaken us. So theres a lot of language that is useful,its just not literal. Ultimately,mystic statements end in paradox/negation to free you from attachment to what you mistake for enlightenment. That in itself has value. And you can still speak about the CONSEQUENCE of Enlightenment for the remaining bodymind,whils still not circumscribing The dao itself. So language CAN be useful,as long as you bear in mind its proper & improper functions. Having said all that,Speaking may have absolutely no relevance to a particular individual at their own point in the process,but it has relevance for EVERYONE at some point. So we might as well clarify it & find the most useful forms that we can. Anyhow,when are we going to get a bit more into the Evolution side of this thread !! Regards,Cloud

Im still not sure that we do,though admittedly Im being VERY finicky about terminology. Bliss itself might accompany the Falling Awake,the immense relief that comes with the unloading of the burden that is ego. Just think of the little bliss of a fever breaking,that in itself can be emotionally & physically plaesurable!! If a particular persons ego-agenda was extremely painful,its falling away would be extremely pleasureable.For a while.Then the system would stabilize,& new temporary experiences would take its place.But the Enlightenment,the absence of the ego,would still remain. But that Bliss would still not be the Enlightenment itself.More of a temporary byproduct. Now you have a system free of the root delusion that generates 'ego',& that system can then begin the endless process of deepening & embodying that Enlightenment. I suppose Im just very wary of any definitions that confuse the immediacy of Enlightenment with any temporary or linear proceses like Bliss or Deepening/Unfolding.Such a confusion would be counterproductive. Regards,Cloud

Wasnt there some Zen tale to this effect? Some student fell Awake,then went nuts.Tried to teach Zen disciplines to the stray cats hanging around the monastery ? His teacher described him as "One of my two mistakes" ,or something like that?

Starjumper, To be honest,I must disagree. Emotional Bliss,& any subsequent unfoldings it ignites,are great stuff & Im all for them. But I dont see how either of them,in & of themselves,constitute Enlightenment.Bliss is one expereience among many,a temporary high subject to conditions.Unfoldement is a linear process governed by change & circumstance,once again subject to conditions. Enlightenment,if it is to liberate,cant be any passing state,any new addition to ones experience.Rather,it would have to be the subtraction of an erroneous perspective from the experiencer.NOT a thing then vulnerable to circumstance or subject to conditions. If it were so subject,it would no longer be a source of liberation.It would just be yet another state for the ego to temporarily experience.The ego would remain intact,no matter what the degree of empowerment it received from Bliss & unfolding. If its to be worthy of the title Enlightenment,it must liberate.If its still conditional,as are Bliss & Unfolding,its NOT liberation. Enlightenment would have to be a non-conditional freedom,a result of a 'letting go' rather than a 'clinging to'.A clinging is always destabilized by change,by conditions,sooner or later.Freedom would be the dropping of an agenda,the agenda to freeze experience in a way comforting to the ego. One would then continue to have all manner of experiences,both 'High' & 'Low',Blissful & painful,but they would no longer be happening 'to' a dualistically motivated 'self'.Experience would be free of the burden of that agenda,& its energetic forms no longer distorted by that agenda. Bliss & Unfolding are great,but they do not indicate Enlightenment.They may disturb the ego's sleep,but they will not awaken it. And they are also two of this ego's favourite dreams Regards,Cloud

There is an adyashanti.org audio excerpt from Adyashanti , says what I wasTRYING to say FAR MORE ELOQUENTLY It begins with Adya addressing someones question,& unfolds into the themes of inherent completeness & human exploration of new horizons. Just click on "The Heart of Service" excerpt in the listen-on-line section in TEACHINGS.

Well, that is the thing really. I was quite taken by his 100 DAYS book ,when it was still in my possession.GREAT presentation,very accesible.Moreso,I felt,than Chias writing style.Never had a chance to try the stuff at the time though. So,without needless muckraking,Im always interested in how these practices affect the day-to-day conduct of their practitioners.But if it sounds like I am actually muckraking,please pull me up on that straight away. Do Yudelove's formulae predispose one to overheating or 'Kundalini crackups'? Was he simply broken by tragic circumstances? Has he been unfairly maligned ? Is is anybodies business but his own? It would be a shame if the material itself was significantly flawed.As I said,the presentation was excellent Regards,Cloud

Where in Oz are you(approximately).Or if you are the more mobile sort,where do your wanderings usually take you ? Regards,Cloud