cloud recluse

Just googled the story myself....... Fuckin ell !!!!... Ahhh,err,um.... "The most recent " you say !! Whathefuck else has been happening???!!!! I spose he could just pass it off as "crazy wisdom" or somesuch

Now dont be a tease ! What did happen,& was it in any way related to the approach in 100 DAYS? I had initially admired that book (until it was stolen by an ex-housemate) simply for the clarity of presentation,the accesibility of the training routine. Please satisfy my curiosity. Regards,Cloud

yeah,but "slave" is kinda sexy,& normally comes with really cool uniforms ( in my experience). Daoists ARE the good energy of the universe,we dont need to hoard nuthin!! Seriously though,the 'masters' youre talking about here are fear -driven idiots ,plain & simple.Only cowards need slaves,or need to see themselves as "Masters" with a capital M. The observation has been made that 'anybody' would go power crazy if put in a tempting enough position,but Im not so sure thats the case.It takes a special kind of coward to become addicted to guru-trips. And,regrettably,this crap can masquerade as much under the label of Daoism as it can under anything else.

I think it's useful to draw a clear distinction between the individual practice/philosophy of a given "religion" and how the organized whole screws things up. So,is the Theocracy thing a CENTRAL part of their solution,or a disposeable bit instead ? I mean,lots of people are nice when theyre not given political power.But give them a taste,& through greed or even spiritually motivated misguided love,they become harsh & intolerant. Is theocracy an ESSENTIAL part of their vision ? Is homophobia an irreducable part of their morality ? Would these nice people,if given a power over others that they belive is their final right & destiny,attempt the old blunder of trying to become benign dictators?

Actually,a kids prcatices thread would be really interesting.A VERY talented freind of mine has produced a VERY talented & open-minded 10 year old,& is always asking me for yoga/chi gung practices appropriate for kids. Unfortunately,as I know only a little bit about hatha Yoga,& bugger all about chi gung,I cant recommend much.But the kid is definetely up for it ( I think hes a big fan of Dragon Ball Z,& ANY martial arts film . So how about it , a Kids Practice thread? Regards,Cloud

Ok,correct me if Im wrong here,coz this is going by some very old memories which may well be inaacurate. Doesnt Bahai advocate some kind of theocracy as its guarantee of social unification? Isnt there a vision of all religions,governments & peoples uniting "under" Bahai ? If so,this brings up the sticky question of what happens to those who disagree with religion,who may even object & protest a theocracy? When your ruler believes they rule via Divine Right,instead of democratic mandate,& you start to critique your ruler,things may not turn out so benign. And any theocracy is aiming at a "benign dictatorship" at best! What happens to the unbelievers who persist in their unbelief? IF Bahai are offering a theocracy as a unifier,they are naive at best! But thats IF.I may have my memories addled a bit. So,any clarification.Does Bahai fall back on the One World Government (in this case a theocracy) solution?Or have I got that wrong ? Regards,Cloud

Lets see it then.Dont be a tease

Thaddeus,I concur But is it not possible that a truly pre-emptive attack is also a valid option for daoists.At certain times,& probably quite rare times.But valid nonetheless?

OK Pilgrim,Im provoked Actually,Im downright intruiged. Solid historical research in this area always grabs me,& Im sure the area must have moved on since I last had a serious look at it.Clarks book sounds like its certainly addressing the issues that interest me.So I think Ill keep a lookout for that one. For me,its both a question of the origin of what we now understand to be Christian orthodoxy,& then also a question of what is or isnt "Gnosticism"? Its gratifying,amongst all the New age waffle that the da Vinci Crud has reinforced,to see that some people are still aware of the uglier aspects of some of the groups defined as Gnostic.Ive seen quite a few Moon-Huggers romantacize the Gnostics as feminist nature-loving yogis & guardians of some lost Goddess tradition for the West,when in fact they could persue a patriarchial world-hatred far more extreme than the Christians. I mean,in SOME Gnostic cosmologies,it is the FOLLY of the Goddess,as she departs from the Male Gods plan,that leads to the creation of an innately wicked world,& this Sophia only redeems herself when she reunites with the Male god Jesus in the otherwordly,anti-material Pleroma! THIS IS NOT A FEMINIST IMAGE!! Meanwhile other groups labelled 'Gnostic' do seem to have something worth listening to. Its an area where the history is still being uncovered.Unfortunately many previous researchers here have had a bad case of religion,but we are starting to see contributions relatively free of that disease. Regards,Cloud

I think ,as daoists who revere the phenomenal world & value it as a display of the Divine,there are certainly times when our own conscience,our REAL conscience revealed through the depths of our contemplations,prompts us into defence.And sometimes defence HAS to be pre-emptive. But once again,we reach this undertstanding through deep perception,not simplistic legal codes,& this is where Tai Ji DOES come in (amongst other disciplines) as a sensitiser & expander of our perceptions,& our concepts of 'force" & 'action'. I think its most commendable to get a real,kinesthetic feel for different kinds of 'force',& this kind of deep learning will open up new options of action/inaction to you. Regards,Cloud

Is Enlightenment really 'creating' a new me,or is it just relieving the ongoing creation of new me's from any burdensome obligation to solidify into some final form. So then your acceptance of this process in itself,as its own justification,& the love you find in this process,would be perhaps the consequence of Enlightenment? Enlightenment freeing you up to become more intimate,more loving ,with this endless procession of change? So those would be your wings,ready to unfurl AT ANY TIME,at any point in the process,as soon as you unburden the process from any desperation & open up to it in real love.The process never 'gets' you Enlightenment,Enlightenment is Always Allready your Beginingless condition.But you (we ,all of us) get confused,& look to the process to 'get' us Enlightenment,& so saddle the process with an impossible burden. And once again,language is breaking down. Regards,Cloud

Actually,Adyashanti said that no-one has ever found Enlightenment to be what they expected.Ever. But he does seem to say that you CAN point to what it is NOT,& you can speak about its consequences. Perhaps we are getting to the limits of speech here? You cant say what it is,but you can release false notions based on what it is not. Or something. Regards,Cloud

Wayne, Sorry its taken me a while to reply,but Ive been preoccupied with other matters,& I havent really had a chance to check your site out properly yet. But I will say that your idea mentioned here about Quantum theory prividing a new 'language',as it were,for comprehending ideas on any level certainly sounds worthwhile.If Quantum Mechanics undoes the crude linear dualisms on the atomic level,then it is striking at the heart of dualistic materialism in general.So any mode of thought learnt from it could really provide a new perspective that may indeed be harmonious with Daoism ,& so help with our own comprehension of Daoism. I want to have achance to check your stuff out first though,before I start shooting my mouth off any further. Wayfarer, Sorry if I was a bit overly serious in my reaction there I suppose that Ive started to see such a broad popularisation of this notion that QM "proves" Mysticism that it makes me cranky (& I can be quite a cranky old shit at times ).It seems to have joined my list of pet peeves.But Im bang up for any discussion on modern science (to the extent that I can follow it) & the consequences it has for our worldview. QM may not be "proving" Mysticism,but it does seem to be upsetting reductionism,& that in itself is funky! Regards,Cloud

Looks intruiging from a casual glance.Certainly looks worth the effort. I will say,although Wilber & the other contributors to that book did raise important questions about the Quantum Mysticism popularised by Capra,this isnt to say that cutting edge science doesnt upset the mechanist-determinist assumptions inherited from the 19th Century reductionists. It was more his cautions about trying to use empirical observations to 'prove' mystical cosmologies,that its a fundamental blunder,both for science & mysticism.If I recall correctly,I think he said that the most one could expect was that certain interpretations of empirical data might see an interdependency & wholism on the material level that could be compatible with the themes of interdependence & wholism that a mystic sees on aaall levels of being. But this still doesnt 'prove' empirically the mystics vision,& nor should the mystic particularly care Regards,Cloud

Bingo An endless creative play! And to be an endless play,it has to be relieved of the burden of making our ego feel better about itself,relived of the projections we smear it with & weigh it down with. We fully unleash this creative play when our ignorance of its real satus,of its assumed 'use' to ego, ends. Ignorance ends.Ego,the agenda born of Ignorance,ends.Play is fully unleashed,free of distortion. One question though,why wouldnt this ending of ignorance be called "Enlightenment"? It would seem as good a term ( or as inadequate a term) as any. Yes? No? Regards,Cloud

Freeform; Dont worry,I stopped the spinal breathing a while back.But unfortunately the headaches continued But the thing is I would really like to reattempt something along those lines reasonably soon,thus my inquiries here.Especially as I have what looks like several months of free time & solitude coming up.So Im considering a few options.Yogani is one,& Ken Cohens new 100 day course is another. Right now,Im happy to just Sit,along with some 8 Brocade & Tai Ji basics. I also intend to go through with a further TCM from my Tai Ji teacher ,basically cupping & massage,which allrerady seems to have taken the edge off things But I am heeding the advice youve provided,its the kind of info I want at my fingertips over the next several months.Thankyou very much for your response. Regards,Cloud

Actually,I may do just that.Thanx man Im just glad you brought up the topic.i think anyone whose going to "be a Daoist" nowadays is going to encounter the subject of the Yi in one way or another.I liked being able to have somewhere to get feedback on my speculations.Now I only wish Id had more to do with the Yu Shin Dao group at the time. And yes,youre doing fine on the paragraph thing

Just saw this product today ,looks cool.Essential qigong Basically ,its a set of about 5 cd's,2dvd's,some booklets & a training journal for a homestudy course working some kind of 100 day formula. Now,Im actually anticipating 2-3 months of relative solitude coming up soon,so something along these line sounds interesting,& I loved Kens book on chi gong.Has anyone had any experience with this course yet ? (Its produced by Sounds True).I would really appreciate any feedback on its usefulness for the Chi Gung beginner. Regards,Cloud

Actually,is the IAM mantra only for the purpose of purification. I mean it makes sense to become silence after the pranayama in order to safely intergrate the aroused energy. But is the I AM also an arouser of cleansing Energy? If it was just a case of silence,I could happily drop the Mantra & just Listen Without Manipulation.

Would this technique be accesible to a beginner ? I mean,if i were to use the pendulum at the very start,in the lesson where Yogani first introduces spinal breathing,could the cooling effect help with the headache spinal breathing seems to give me. Regads,Cloud

Thad: there seems to me to be 2 seperate,but not mutually exclusive ,approaches to the Yi Jing to be considered.Neither of them would constitute any sort of 'compulsory' Daoist practice,but if one were so inclined,they could be quite productive. The one Im really interested in at the moment is using the multi-faceted cosmology of the Changes to sensitize & open the consciuos mind to the flow of the Dao.This is NOT oracular consultation,but a practical application of daoist cosmology.Ive allready run into one group of Daoist practitioners doing just that.So,its the cosmology as a teaching tool ,an expander of your conscious frames of reference. The idea here is that your conscious frames of reference limit the degrees of insight your ego will allow. Identifying where you are 'fixated' in the cycle of changes can then lead to both intellectual & meditative engagement of contrasting Hexagrams to expand your perspective in a systematic & balanced way.A perusal of the Yi at a level a bit deeper than 'fortune telling' will show this to those who are interested. The other theme is,of course,fortune telling.Which I suppose was really the whole point of this thread in the first place.And this is the one Im not really up to going into right now Except to say that I am mindful of your objections here.But even this 'lesser' function of the Yi may not necessarily be the big copout that you are objecting to.But thats another matter alltogether. Its the first function,the Yi as a kind of yoga that interestes me,& that Im trying to articulate here.But Im pretty much "making it up as I go along",Im still not 100% on what Im trying to express.So I will beg your patience there. Regards,Cloud ps,before I forget,could you possibly come up with a reference for Wang Xian Zhai denying the Bagua-Yi connection.I really would like to hear that side of it & have no idea where to start.

OK,A bit of peace.Hes now yelling about new agers getting hung up on Quantum Mechanics,whille shovelling some kind of gooey cake down his throat! Anyhow Thad, Imagine that your mind-your surface,conceptual conditioned 'persona' mind- is attached to a particular theme.It wants the world to be a certain way.Its most comfotable imagining a very specific balance of forces any any given situation,youe 'ego-trip'.This balance of forces could be abstractly represented as a particular hexagram.Your mind favours it,& resists/fears the presence of other situations,other Hexagrams. This resistance frustrates your deeper intuitive minds desire to awaken the conceptual mind to the ongoing mutation of one circumstance/hexagram into another.Your mind doesnt want to keep up with the flow,dosent want to see the Change.It only interprets other Changes as a defeat of its ideal,as an absence of vitality. Studying the Changes,contemplating them & seeing them in actual situations can teach the surface mind to see the Dao in these previously threatening circumstances as well.It can loosen the egos attachments,& align it with the deeper minds intuition.Contemplating the Yi Jing becomes a meditation on a wisdom text that reworks the thinking minds definitions of 'valid' situations.Its parameters are hopefully expanded,its less resistant to new situations. So you would start to appreciate more & more events as the Dao,not just your favourites. And thats as far as I go tonight,coz now Im getting a headache. But keep at me with questions on this Thad,as its helping to clarify my own thoughts! Regards,Cloud-Who-Wishes-He-Really-Was-A-Recluse-Right-Now

Oh Lord,its 1am in the morning here I was about to go to bed! The quickest thing I can coherently think of to type (Im sorry T,but my housemate is distracting me by pointing out VERY silly things in Ashida Kims SECRETS OF THE NINJA.its a laugh riot,and I think Darth Maul is in two of the photos ) at the moment is that contemplating a hexagram,its construction options for movement from its current form,starts to generate a certain perspective.One can begin to then see concrete situations as reflecting the balance of forces abstracted in a particular hexagram,& the options for transformation into the next Change. But its NOT a purely intellectual mapping of a situation,its trying to give the intellect an opening to the intuitive,a catalyst. Im sorry,but my housemate wont leave me alone,hes ranting about the Police hassling him now,I will get back to you on this with something a bit clearer. Regards,Cloud

Just that for some people,having the formalised pattern of the Changes at their fingertips gives their conceptual mind a broader,more flexible 'language' to think in.From there,the conceptual mind could perhaps relax into a deeper listening with greater ease,& also express the subtler promptings of intuition with more efficiency. A decade ago I had a breif encounter with a Yu Shin Dao Kung Fu group,and one of their practices was the study & exploration of the Yi Jing NOT as an Oracle to be consulted,but as a set of concepts that sensitised the mind to the flow & balance of different grades of forces in the current moment.This thread has got me speculating about that again. As to the Bagua connection,its pretty much one Ive always taken for granted,as Im not a Bagua practitioner myself.So if it turns out to be crap,I would be very interested.My knowledge here is strictly 2nd hand 'book -larnin'

True enough,but many people have a very mediative approach to doing a reading,& it delivers quite specific & impressive results. While it can certainly degenerate into mechanical "fortune telling ",& I would not disagree with you criticisng that unfortunate tendency at all,is it not possible that it could ALSO function as a catalyst?Something more that just an 'external oracle? After all Bagua is based on the same structure of Changes ! If your body can become sensitive to the Changes through Bagua,why not your conceptual mind through the Yi Jing ? I mean,some people do no practice except for Just Sitting.Others engage in complex alchemies.& there are people who do both.Couldnt the Yi Jing be a kind of Daoist Jnana Yoga? Not everybodys trip,but not necessarily an invalid one.Just a case of avoiding the mechanical approach perhaps. Regards,Cloud