cloud recluse

After 24 hours of pounding headache,I went to my Tai Ji teacher for TCM diagnosis,cupping & massage.Apparently,things are a bit wobbly & theres a bit of therapeutic work to be done before I start messing about alchemically.But one session has allready soothed things a bit. But heres a Yogani-Adya question on another matter.Ive been quite taken by Adyas Listening Without Manipulation,whereas Yoganis meditation is mantra orientated.Is anyone experienced on 'combining' both? The reason why I ask is that I would really like to get more into Yoganis material at some point.I think perhaps simply because Im just so impressed by the clarity & internal consistency of his presentation.So I dont want to be tinkering with the strength of the forms he presents.But neither do I want to relinquish the formlessness of Adya. What do people think about this ? Regards,Cloud

So anyhow. Evolution.Becoming.Form. As far as I can figure,the human genome is pretty much set at the moment (sorry,no impending Master race stuff here ).Any kind of evolution from here on that is 'natural' ( no Cyborg stuff here either) would seem to be personal evolution,and then "social" evolution,though Im a bit wary of that concept. This meanders my way back to the question of the Immortals.Could you engage in Immortal Yogas (whatever they may actually be) without being Enlightened? Could you wind up as some kind of Asura/Titan thingy ?While I imagine Enlightenment & Evolution to be 2 seperate things,does going onto certain esoteric stages of personal evoltion require Enlightenment beforehand ? I have no frigging idea,but the Daoist image of the alchemical Immortal,as some kind of ideal ,has always appealed to my imagination.I mean,what are the theoretical limits to individual growth if you have a worldview where energy is more real than matter,& consciousness is more real than energy? What are the limits? Regards,Cloud

You lucky swine Yi Jing told me that I will have to work for everything (from the egoic point of view),& that I will never be the type of person swept away by grace!

Taoalpha; is it not possible that the framework & 'feel' of the Changes could sensitize you quicker,sort of give you something to align your conceptual mind to your intuitive mind,or perhaps give your intuitive mind a 'voice' in the conceptual realm? I know this is a bit vague,its an idea still bubbling around in me,but its something along the lines of the Yi being a sort of Yoga in itself,something that rapidly acclimatizes your thinking mind to express the intuitive mind more concisely,or perhaps it unites the two. If the conceptual mind is 'aligned' to the intuitive mind via the framework of the Changes,could that not speed up the process of relaxing into the quite self,as the thinking mind is no longer antagonistic to the flow of the intuitive mind,& thus generates less dissonance,less noise? Having said all that Taoalpha,you yourself personally may have absolutely no need for such a device.But I think it could have a very real use for other people as a tool for acclimatising the conceptual mind to Wu Wei,a sort of facilitator to a deeper sensitivity.So even if we dont need it ourselves,knowledge of its yogic function would be good for assisting others. Yes? No? Whaddaya think? Regards,Cloud

Well,Peregrino,hes certainly an alternately inspiring/intimidating figure Thing is,how is a nearly 40 yr old like myself supposed to train for this kind of flexibility,especially as I can only just touch my toes comfortably ? I mean ,what are the restrictions of age when your only just starting to seriously look at flexibility? When comes the point that you have left it too late? Hmm,kind of morbid language.But what are the options for us aging less-than-buff types with no acces to gym equipment? Regards,Cloud

MASTERforge; I concur utterly with you opinion here ( so therefore you must be highly intelligent ).I have to say that the odd occasions I have consulted the Yi Jing as an oracle have been disconcertingly effective,but its the Yi's potential as a wisdom text that really draws me. But its only recently that Ive stared to fell inclined to follow that draw,& this thread has certainly stimulated that.I am starting to belive that a truly Daoist path will involve a deeper apprecaition of the Yi Jing,as almost as a kind of 'Embodiment' practice,or a bridge between the embodiments of tai ji & the transcendance of meditation. Which leads me to speculate thus: Mediation is "Heaven",the relaxing of our striving back into the Transpersonal.Tai Ji is "Earth",the full entry of awareness into the flesh. So is the Yi Jing "Humanity",a conceptual structure sensitizing us to the Dao?A right use of the human being unique conceptual apparatus,NOT to enclose us further in thought,but rather to liberate thought into flow,both 'up to Heaven & 'down ' to earth?? A kind of a practical Trinity of Daoist cultivation according to the "Heaven,Earth,Man" formula ?? Any comments? Regards,Cloud

I cant actually afford any right now This all sound viable to me,thanx Yoda Initially,I just backed off & concentrated on trying to increase the depth of my meditaion,figuring that it wasnt deep enough to comfortably accomadate amplified energies.But my breif dabbling in spinal breathing does seem to have uncovered/trigered a complex of stresses that I ahd always suspected were there.Im actually considering some therapeutic massage options first.Then come back to spinal breathing after a good de-bugging Regards,Cloud

Freeform,heres where Im going to get really finicky again From my understanding,admittedly VERY limited experience,and from those authorities that I have an intuitive trust for,I want to draw a distinction between Being & Becoming (Im using those terms VERY loosely & experimentally). The non-dual isnt a level or state that we would ever eventually "arrive" at.Its the ever present condition of all states & stages.You could perhaps even actually exhaust the possibilties of ALL states & stages ,and still be sabotaging your perception of the Non Dual. Now someone who has truly lived with the Elegance you have described so well,& has resolved many (If not all) of the dualities of Becoming,has a fairly unique opportunity.Having fulfilled all the major options,there is ,in a certain sense,"nothing left "but to turn their perception around 360 degrees & revision the entire undertaking. BUT theres no guarantee,no matter to what degree the have exemplified the Elegant life,that they will have either the insight or the motivation to do this. Nor is there any "Moral" reason why they should have to. But should they choose/be driven to do so,to ask the 'Question Who/What Is Playing?',they will have,possibly,a far smoother reintergration of that non dual insight into becoming.Theyve prepared the bodymind for smooth flow through the elegance of their life.And so we arive at Wu Wei. I suppose what Im trying to do here is prevent the necesary understanding of the Becoming of stages & states being inappropriately transferred to obscure the Always Allready presence of Being. Enlightenment does NOT flow automatically as a new or deeper stage/state as a result of a linear sequence of Becoming.This could be a real trap .WE ARE coming "OUT" of the Non Dual RIGHT NOW,in every moment.Coming out of it,slicing it up so as to be less afraid of it,compulsively boxing it in.We are allready "There"! But the Elegant Life WILL destabilise our pseudo certainties with the depth & intensity of its experiences.AS WELL AS prepare us to embody nondual insight better that a compulsive & narrow life. THE ELEGANT LIFE UPSETS OUR CERTAINTY.Whether or not we thus gain insight into the Non Dual is another matter. This is the distinction Im obseesed with,& I think it is helpful,in that we would lessen our burdening of life with the obligation to 'get' Enlightenment.We just revere life as shown by the elegance of our response to it,& AVOID making it a 'leadup' to Enlightenment.If we do that,Enlightenment will almost take care of itself. Regards,Cloud

Yeah,there is that But our "reaching" will always involve some conceptuality,so perhaps we can try & eliminate those concepts that are excessively "un-Enlightened",so that the inevitable concepts that remain wont actuallyget in the way of Enlightenment too much.Sort of "Enlightenment - freindly" concepts that push us off in the right direction,but fall away as our momentum increases ? So we could look at a concept & say, "That will definetly impede Enlightenment" whereas another concept will serve a useful transitory function,with its own built-in self-destruct mechanism ,so to speak.The concept isnt "True" per se,but its not "Restrictive",or something like that. I know this is all a bit vague,but I cant think of anything better right now p.s.,have you looked at Mukunda Rao's bio of U.G.;THE OTHER SIDE OF BELIEF:INTERPRETING U.G.KRISHNAMURTI ??

Michaeld,this may be where we have a differing perspective. From my point of view,the outside world as 'smoke & mirrors' would simply be a phase of interiority.Such phases are necessary parts of Life & highly empowering,but still not Enlightenment per se.I think Daoism,as a historical circumstance in China,found itself emphasizing Interior phases in response to society,a necesary response on its part for what Lifes balance required at that time. But still too dualistic In ITSELF to be Enlightenment. In the Non Dual,its ALL equally real/illusion.EVERYTHING is "Inside" yourself,ANYTHING you observe.Be it the conventional "Outside " side of Duality,the environment & society,or the "Inside" side of Duality-my somatic sensations,conceptual thoughts,subtle energies & Absorption-Bliss states. Both sides are still in the glorious realm of Duality.There is still an ego-project wanting to slice one off from the other in order to create itself.Be it in the depths of material obsessions -"Outside"- or the heights of Mystic Ecstasy- "Inside"- its still the realm of Duality.The realm of Becoming,change,flow.events etc.All good & groovy stuff,"Eternity is in Love with the Productions of Time". Enlightenment is to Know the Non Dual Identity,& thus drop the ego-slicing of your experience.Then you will groove even more,& perhaps there are certain Inside Yogas that remain exhaustingly Effortful until you are Enlightened,then they become effortless.And perhaps there are certain Outside lifepaths that are also immensely demanding,but then come together with no real "trying" on your part after Enlightenment. The Dualistic realm of Becoming really changes ,both Inside & Outside,once its embraced from the Non-Dual. Both Interiority & Exteriority are equally expressions of the Absolute.Prior to Enlightenment,they could be equally hijacked by the ego. And now Im becoming preachy Sorry about that Michaeld. Anyhow,thats what Im on about. Do you think theres any validity in the idea that Interiority can ALSO be hijacked bt the ego-project? Its certainly my impression. Regards,Cloud

Actually,Ive been thinking about my use of the word "purification",and it occurs to me that one thing I really luv from Yogani is his term "Ecstatic Conductivity".So we are "purified" ( a somewhat grim,ascetic term) by Ecstasy.We dont mortify our desires,rather we satisfy them with a subtler ecstasy.Desire meeting a real fullfillment,or at least finding a worthy goal,in the bodies ecstatic core,then expanding out to external phenomena. NOW THATS MY IDEA OF A GOOD PURIFICATION!!!!!! And as for Enlightenment,Im going to take Adya's word for it that you dont HAVE to be broken unless you MAKE youself a tough nut to crack.I think thats one of the really important things I get from the Spontaneous Awakening cd's. I think Yoda's right in that St John was a bit hampered when it came to avavilable techniques,& the Catholic trip was probably a lot less diluted that it is now,so intuiting his way to Ecstatic Conductivity was never going to be straightforward. Regards,Cloud p.s. The ironic thing here is that Spinal Breathing still gives me a headache

Freeform, I think what youve got here clearly illustrates the difference in our use of the term 'Enlightenment'.Though perhaps Im a bit hooked on being an "Orthodox Nondualist" ( does that make sense?). Your description here is an excellent example of true living ,full living.Moving through those levels as best we can,being open & alive in them.Thats real life! But this is where Im going to split some hairs Because its a you moving through a thing called life,its not necessarily IN ITSELF Enlightenment.Its Becoming,not Being. Enlightenment would mean relaxing into & coming from the space "behind" all 3 Dan Tiens.Life is being able to skitter up & down the 'scale' of the dan Tiens as needed.Enlightenment has something to do with the thing that skitters.One can still be skittering up & down with a truly breathtaking grace,but still with the residual friction of the ego ,the 'drag' of the primary dualism.Enlightenment dissolves that drag,& you are now the uber-skitterer!!! Thing is,you could relax into Enlightenment without much skitter-skills having been learnt beforehand,which may make it a bit tricky to re-engage your skitter-function.Or,you could get really hooked on the breadth of your skitter range,but still carry a nagging dissatisfaction coz you can only see skittering & nothing else,even thinking that skittering in itself is enlightenment. Does my distinction here ring true in your experience? Regards,Cloud

I suppose for me Enlightenment HAS to be the Unqualified Nondual.I mean,if its going to be all its cracked up to be,it cant be a 'special state' that you get 'into'Its not an ego-cheering bliss,or any 'condition' that would be subject to passing. It would have to be the dropping away of a fundamental error of perrception,the 'extinction' of a futile strategy that part of me has been desperately working at.We dont 'get' anything in Enlightenment,rather we 'lose' a burden,a self-defeating activity fuelled by missperception. Enlightenment is freedom from a futile approach to whichever particular experience is arising at the moment,be it blissful or mundane.I stop trying to manipulate my experiences into ego-supporting forms,and consequently my perception of them clears up. Its not a 'state' I can get into,but rather the result of letting go of a very silly-tragic habit.Further states will continue to arise & fall,but they will not be the source of Enlightenment.My nonconditional experience of them will be. BIG difference here between the transitory state of Mystical Absorption Ecstasy ( not that theres ANYTHING wrong with that ) & the existential openness of Enlightenment. Of course,for this thread,now comes definitions of Evolution.Now its not Enlightenment,coz its all about transitory conditions.And in this context its not really the further evolution of the Human genome.Perhaps its really about the opportunities & responsibilities of personal 'growth' that genome evolution has thrown us into on an individual level? So would it be better to frame the enquiry as Evolution (Self-Transcendance) & personal Growth (Self-Actualisation). Darebaks observation about salad forks & species competition is quite stimulating,and makes me uncertain about my habit of using the term 'Evolution' as a synonym for self-actualisation,a personal activity or yoga. Regards,Cloud

I knew this stripper once that really wanted me to drink her pee.Does drinking other peoples pee count?

Sean & Cameron I want to run an idea past the both of you,as its something Ive been 'inspired' to think from Adyas material,in relation to the purification of the nervous system re Yogani & other yogis. My understanding (& at this point I fully admit its only an intellectual understanding) is that after Enlightenment,there will come a phase where all the material you have repressed,avoided or simply not encountered yet will come rushing into the light of your Awareness,the Light that is now You.Basically,after the fascination with your newfound freedom has worn off,Life reasserts itself,or becomes necessary to reengage if your want vitality to be part of your ongoing Enlightenment. Something like that.So Enlightenment isnt the "End",but it is the pivotal dropping away of some really tiresome baggage Sooner or later,You would have to re-engage Life,as Enlightenment has permanently destabilised your avoidance mechanism,cut it off at its roots.Now your in Full Contact,like it or not Isnt it possible that the yogic purification,as well as your general willingness to engage life,that youve established PRIOR to Enlightenment ( IF youve done so) would also smooth out the post -Enlightenment reintergartion of Living? So although those yogas are not Enlightenment themselves,and could actually become a distraction from Enlightenment if you thought you could "get" Enlightenment through your efforts in those yogas,properly done they may establish a response to daily life,a "Habit" if you will,of embodiment & embrace. So you come to Enlightenment with an allready established habit of embodiment,ready & waiting to kick in when Enlightenment takes the lid off all your avoided material. So material like Yoganis would give you the Habit of Embodiment to bring to Enlightenment,and make the transition to Enlightened living a lot smoother,the transition to Enlightened Love,Loving Actions a lot quicker. Being an organic "habit",its not like a concept that your trying to impose on Enlightenment,& thus obscure it.Rather,yoga has given you a deep skill of embodiment.Its habituated you to embrace instead of avoidance. I mean,"Yoga",to me,when its healthy,is just real life,real living anyhow.Full contact living.Enlightenment then would destabilise the main impediment to that Living,and really release you into full embodiment. Perhaps ? Anyhow,what do you think? Regards,Cloud

I like your post here.This is good stuff,really looking at the definitions. Personally,I think Evolution is the same as real living,"disciplined" evolution simply being in full contact with life,fully responding to life in whatever phase is currently presenting itself to you.Full Contact Living! This keeps our evolution bubbling along quite effectively,and to the ego it is a very demading & disciplined experience,as the ego always wants to bug out & hide in some comforting illusion. And I see no reason why Evolution couldnt take us into the realm of an Immortal.We will only find out by trying. So real,full blooded life would be the full embrace of an endless becoming,an open-ended experiment to do full justice to our potentials,& its not anything other than the life being presented to us now. As to Enlightenment detracting from your evolutionary motivation,I dont think thats necessarily the case. There could certainly be an awkward period of readjustment as your conventional motivations drop away.But then you would also have to deal with the exposure to awareness of all your resistances to Full Contact.Once your Enlightened,it ALL comes to the surface sooner or later,as your mechanism of avoidance has now been permanetly destabilised .It may attempt to reassert itself after Enlightenment,but its now irrevocably winding down ( this is one of the reasons why I like Adyashanti.He seems willing to address the challenges that come AFTER Enlightenment.) So it would perhaps be a question of the quality of discipline you had established BEFORE Enlightenment,as to how well you will reintergrate the Evoultion-Life impulse AFTER Enlightenment.You will HAVE to intergrate it sooner or later,Enlightenment wont allow for anything else. But to try & put it all in perspective,its self defeating to make Enlightenment itself a required goal (thats why I have reservations about Buddhism),as the the Passion for Enlightenment is something that emerges on its own timetable,not the ego's. Meanwhile,the most rewarding trip is to get fully into Life,strive for evolutionary fun (Prior to Enlightenment,you will always be "striving" for something). Go for Immortality,Siddhis,better social skills & a happier planet.It will keep you well occupied,And should the Passion for Enlightenment arise,you will have the skill base to reintergrate Life back into it more efficiently in the post-Enlightenment phase. Regards,Cloud

Greetings Nutting Another Downunder Daoist This just gets better & better . We are a force to be reckoned with Regards,Cloud.

OK,forgive me if I waffle here a bit Thad.Im putting my thoughts in order as I write this. I suppose I just see conventional conditioning exercises as a formalised approach to natural adaptive processes,thing that would have naturally taken place in our historical environments of origin.Were not scampering through the trees anymore,but we can simulate those processes in exercise.So we get to keep the health benefits of our origins.Muscle hypertyrophy is a NATURAL and NECESSARY process. Thus,nothing unhealthy witha BALANCED exercise routine.Necessary to our health in fact,assuming its tailormade to the individuals situation.Why would this maitainence of a natural function conflict with chi ?? Now,it seems to me that chi-gong is also a natural capacity,though historically perhaps a rarer one. So,two natural processes. Of coure,all this ASSUMES balance & moderation on the individuals part. Or did the 'accidental workout' lifestyle of our ancestors preclude chi development? Is chi-gong only available to the leisured classes ? Certainly,their may be practical time constraints,and any one approach may become extreme up to the point of interfering with others.And it still gets back to a question of what the individual requires at the time. But I dont see WHY one method precludes the other? I mean,if your a gym jukie obssesed with a bloated musculature,I dont think chi gong is going to be accesible for a number of reasons.But compensating for a sedentary lifestyle is intelligent & healthy.Theres a certain level of exertion we are built for,& our genotype has not changed in that respect.If we neglect that,we stagnate! And I would have to add there the many examples of athletes entering "Zone" states through conventional muscular exertions. Now,if it turned out there WAS a mutual exclusion of the two,I would be very interested.But the idea seems a little odd.They both seem utterly natural & appropriate in their respective roles in ones life.AND they both can become the focus of extremism. So perhaps its just a question of muscle extremism in an image obsessed culture.Now that WOULD conflict with chi!A lot of approache to exercise ARE unhealthy in the long run,due to an obsession of the ego.But as exercise & chi are both natural,why couldnt they reinforce each other. I mean,a healthy diet "reinforces" exercise.why couldnt a chi-gung do the same? Assuming,once again,the exercise isnt extreme for the individuals situation. I think Im going in circles now But do you see where Im coming from. Regards,Cloud

Being a newcomer to all this stuff,I will beg your patience if this bit of info turns out to be allready commonplace I vaguely recall reading in the "TEACHINGS OF TAOIST MASTER CHUANG" (by Michael Saso ,I think) that chi gung could be used to offset the damage done by the rigourous strength training done by "external" martial artists,so you could have the benefits of conditioning without any chi depletions ( assuming to find the right balance of activity of course). So there would allready be a 'Daoist precedent' for that approach.It would be "officially daoist" ( if anyone cares ). It does seem to make sense to me.Muscular adaption is as much a natural capacity as chi gung.Why would we have to sacrifice either.Isnt it just a case of balance? Regards,Cloud

A VERY interesting observation,particularly considering the New Age 'discovery" of Gnosticism & their simplistic presentation of it. Howdy Pilgrim ( I will never tire of saying that ) Interesting about Merton,that his experiences were perhaps better amplified by a Far Eastern model than the Middle Eastern one that his theology originated in ( though I do realise those distinctions may be a bit tricky) Regards,Cloud

Sounding a bit Gurdijeffian there,is that you orientation? Regards,Cloud.

I think it would be fantastic to exchange ideas on the internal arts ( or any arts really) ,especially in an informal flexible context.My only hesitation is that I dont really have much to offer myself by way of actual experience:( But I am a good listener Regards,Cloud

Buddhism 71% Satanism 67% Paganism 63% Agnosticism 58% Judaism 54% Hinduism 54% Islam 50% Atheism 46% Christian 17% Does this just mean Im a lustful Buddhist who doesnt like Christians It would explain a lot ! Regards,Cloud

Although its by no means a closed matter,I myself am still of the opinion that Jesus was a fervently nationalistic revolutionary hoping to violently expel the occupying Roman forces with a liitle help from Yahweh.I dont know whether he can still qualify as a Daoist or not,but I certainly dont think he was some peaceful serene figure drifting lovingly around Judea.He was a violent zealot,as were his disciples,who belived himself to be exclusively singled out to initiate holy war! Now the reformulated,pacifistic,Rome - freindly version in the Gospels has certainly gone on to inspire many heart warming Sunday school stories for little kiddies,and the symbolism of the dying-reborn sun god remains psychologicallypotent,I admit.And there is wisdom to be found ,to a greater or lesser degree,in most scriptures. But when I want Daoism,Id rather go to the Daoists.Fanatical monotheists dont do it for me. Jesus only survives because of the violence he instigated,violence on a level that made his name & that of his family too famous/notorious to ignore.And so the folk hero myth was captured & repackaged into something more civil.If there had been no Jewish wars,there would have been no Jesus myth in any form-Pauline,Gnostic,nothing.

Eeeeeek.Ive only just started Tai Ji,with no real idea of how to assess what Im doing.Any pointers here Thad? Now I feel threatened Regards,Cloud