Peregrino

There's always the danger that we become evil to defeat evil, but I think the moral ambiguities of fighting a just war (note that I don't consider the Iraqi adventure to be one) are tolerable in face of the alternatives of annihilation or enslavement. I'm all for dialogue with moderate Muslims, but the sharia-imposing extremists (from Tehran to Thailand to Amsterdam) have proven themselves not to have any interest in "just getting along" whatsoever. I know there are many pacifists posting on this site, so Smile/Max, as a Buddhist pacifist, what do you think is the best response to the slaughter of Buddhists by Muslim extremists in Thailand? (The Islamofundies are not just at war with "the West," but with any religion or perspective that differs from radical Islam. Remember the Taliban destruction of those Buddha statues?) Recent events have really made me re-consider the pacifism of someone like Gandhi. I'm glad that Gandhi successfully ended British imperialist rule in India without the use of violence, but, as bad as the Brits could be, they were more amenable to non-violent resistance than other world powers at the time, e.g. Germany. Gandhi was waaaaaaaaaaay off the mark in thinking the European Jews should have just capitulated to Nazi terror, for in the end, "the moral victory would be theirs." What good is a "moral victory" if your civilization no longer survives? Here are some choice quotes from Sri Aurobindo on Gandhi's pacificsm: http://www.esamskriti.com/html/new_inside....9&count1=10 It's too bad that Bush and his free-marketeers are anything but high-caliber leaders, but I do yearn for a time of real peace, in which radical Islamists have either realized the folly of their ways and put down their arms or have been soundly defeated by a military force that can leave something better in its wake than Bush has done in Iraq (c.f. the reconstruction of Germany or Japan after WWII).

Wow, great pic! I'm becoming a real "slavophile" these days. D'oh! My laptop battery is about to die. Anyway, when I finally decide to make my big trip East, I'll ask you some more advice about appealing destinations . . . and how to use kiai jitsu defenses against the bears! : ) Ciao! Peregrino

Strangely enough, I've found that drinking hot tea--esp. red tea with honey--on hot days keeps me cool, and is especially restorative after a boxing workout. Somehow I sweat less and my system is more satisfied when I drink it hot rather than cool. I can remember enjoying regular mint tea breaks during an August trip to Morocco. Hot tea seems to be popular in North African and Middle Eastern countries no matter what the season. Don't know the science behind tea-drinking in general, but I have read that liang-cha tea in particular is supposed to be effective for dispelling inner heat.

Following up on my last rambling: there's an interesting article on your country in today's _New York Times_: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/world/eu...;pagewanted=all So, what's Novo Mesto like? Any places in the Dolenjska area you'd recommend for a spiritual retreat?

I live in Vigo, Galicia (autonomous region of northwestern Spain), by way of California, Oregon, New York, Virginia, New Hampshire, and Mexico, among other places. I've been quite the vagabond (one of the reasons I chose my handle, Peregrino--Spanish for "pilgrim"), though now I'm happy to make my home in this corner of Europe. However, in case Europe tanks, I do have my escape pod--New Zealand! Since I was born there, I'm eligible for an NZ passport (thanks to liberal citizenship laws), which I can add to the US and Irish passports. Just don't tell Homeland Security . . .

That's right, Cloud-- animo (take heart)! I know that a "dark night of the soul" can seem long a gruelling, but it can also be *very* fortifying in the end. Just keep in mind that your Cloud-covered wisdom always shines brightly when you beam it down on these threads--take it from the Pilgrim!

Oops! Just for the record, that's a ninja--not a Klansman!--on my avatar. Maybe I should change back to my original avatar--a medieval pilgrim abiding in Gelassenheit. Your pic's a trip, by the way. You wouldn't happen to be a Captain Beefheart fan, would you?

Bluegrass! I went to college in the Appalachian mountains near a Trappist monastery. I've always wondered what "monastic bluegrass" would sound like . . . (Cue to a brother in a habit strumming on a banjo: "Evilevilevilevil wooooooorld/I don'everwanna play with giiiiiiiiiirls!") Glad you mentioned Larry David, Freef--it is definitely the tension built into every episode of _Curb_ that makes me laugh so hard . . . And it's also very therapeutic to know that there's always someone more misanthropic and neurotic than I am when I'm at my worst! He's like a lightning rod for everything that my own id wants to unleash. Nice post, Hagar--so you are saying something to the effect that "enjoyment" is more an episode of being "surprised by joy," while the state of joy itself is more akin to a long, slow-burning rapture?

A ukelele version of the great Beatles' song!

Welcome, Doc! All you say sounds very interesting, but I'm especially happy to hear that there's someone else interested in German philosophy! Perhaps I'll shoot you some questions when I try to brush up on my Hegel again. BTW, you should be able to post anywhere now that you've made it through the lobby. Happy trails! Peregrino

It always pisses off my doctrinaire lefty friends when I say this, but I have nothing but the greatest respect for the state of Israel. I think the Palestinians deserve their own state, BUT I do not want to see Israel, the most culturally and institutionally advanced nation in the Middle East, go down in flames. (And yes, I will make that judgement call, as the mullahs and their suicide bombers have obliged me to do so!) . . . And no, I won't shed any tears for Hamas or Hezbollah losses, though I am indeed sobered by the civilian casualties on both sides. Now, in the interest of fairness, I'm wondering about the recent news discussions of the "disproportionate" response of Israel to Hezbollah and Hamas: for all the civilian casualties the Israelis have inflicted, I wonder what the corresponding ratios are for anti-Israeli violence re: civilian to military casualties. It is my impression that Hamas and other groups kill a higher proportion of civilians in their attacks than Israelis do. Maybe I'm wrong--does anyone have any fact-based commentaries to clarify this issue? Shalom, Peregrino

A lot of those monabaker.com quotes are radically taken out of context! Not that Israeli leaders and soldiers never sin, but sheesh, they are surrounded by people who want to wipe them out completely. Here's a nice analysis of why negotiative rather than distributive justice is the way to go when addressing legitimate Arab/Palestinian grievances, without appeasing any appalling ideologies. Regarding oil: I strongly believe that Western countries need to get off the fossil fuels crack pipe, for MANY reasons, but a big one is so that we stop bankrolling all those nutjob theocracies. I really admire the anti-Islamofundie scholar Wafa Sultan. (Notice how I avoided using the word "fascism," i.e. "Islamofascist"? Har har har! Shalom . . . But if you really want to look into real ties of Islam with fascism, look up the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and founder of the Arab League, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, a notorious Nazi collaborator who supplied Muslim (PALESTINIAN) troops to fight for Hitler!) Here on this great site[/url] (clip #1050) Ms. Sultan debates a radical mullah and gives him a severe tongue-lashing. Imagine an outspoken Arab woman telling Muslim countries why they should imitate Israel! She also makes the inconvenient point (to radical Islamic apologists) that Jews have managed to do far more constructive things, given their lot in history up to the Holocaust, than to launch suicide bomb attacks in German restaurants! The Memri site is great for Middle East news in general. I'll grant that it comes with a pro-Israel bias--although a lot of the radical Islamic wackjobs really don't need much goading to condemn themselves from their own mouths, as the Memri clips from Al-Jazeera show. Unlike the Monabaker.com quotes, there is no distortion from the context--radical Islamic designs for Israel could be no clearer than in the Hamas charter itself, which calls for the complete destruction of Israel, and quotes the friggin' Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Wafa Sultan really is a site to behold in debate, but in case the video link doesn't work, here's a transcript from the debate I mentioned: Arab-American Psychiatrist Wafa Sultan: There is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century Following are excerpts from an interview with Arab-American psychiatrist Wafa Sultan. The interview was aired on Al-Jazeera TV on February 21, 2006 . Wafa Sultan: The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions, or a clash of civilizations. It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality. It is a clash between freedom and oppression, between democracy and dictatorship. It is a clash between human rights, on the one hand, and the violation of these rights, on other hand. It is a clash between those who treat women like beasts, and those who treat them like human beings. What we see today is not a clash of civilizations. Civilizations do not clash, but compete. [...] Host: I understand from your words that what is happening today is a clash between the culture of the West, and the backwardness and ignorance of the Muslims? Wafa Sultan: Yes, that is what I mean. [...] Host: Who came up with the concept of a clash of civilizations? Was it not Samuel Huntington? It was not Bin Laden. I would like to discuss this issue, if you don't mind... Wafa Sultan: The Muslims are the ones who began using this expression. The Muslims are the ones who began the clash of civilizations. The Prophet of Islam said: "I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and His Messenger." When the Muslims divided the people into Muslims and non-Muslims, and called to fight the others until they believe in what they themselves believe, they started this clash, and began this war. In order to stop this war, they must reexamine their Islamic books and curricula, which are full of calls for takfir and fighting the infidels. My colleague has said that he never offends other people's beliefs. What civilization on the face of this earth allows him to call other people by names that they did not choose for themselves? Once, he calls them Ahl Al-Dhimma, another time he calls them the "People of the Book," and yet another time he compares them to apes and pigs, or he calls the Christians "those who incur Allah's wrath." Who told you that they are "People of the Book"? They are not the People of the Book, they are people of many books. All the useful scientific books that you have today are theirs, the fruit of their free and creative thinking. What gives you the right to call them "those who incur Allah's wrath," or "those who have gone astray," and then come here and say that your religion commands you to refrain from offending the beliefs of others? I am not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. I am a secular human being. I do not believe in the supernatural, but I respect others' right to believe in it. Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: Are you a heretic? Wafa Sultan: You can say whatever you like. I am a secular human being who does not believe in the supernatural... Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: If you are a heretic, there is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran... Wafa Sultan: These are personal matters that do not concern you. [...] Wafa Sultan: Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don't throw them at me. You are free to worship whoever you want, but other people's beliefs are not your concern, whether they believe that the Messiah is God, son of Mary, or that Satan is God, son of Mary. Let people have their beliefs. [...] Wafa Sultan: The Jews have come from the tragedy (of the Holocaust), and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror, with their work, not their crying and yelling. Humanity owes most of the discoveries and science of the 19th and 20th centuries to Jewish scientists. 15 million people, scattered throughout the world, united and won their rights through work and knowledge. We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people. The Muslims have turned three Buddha statues into rubble. We have not seen a single Buddhist burn down a Mosque, kill a Muslim, or burn down an embassy. Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people, and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them.

Sure, T--here is the Florence Scovel Shinn homepage, plus some of her titles via Amazon: http://florencescovelshinn.wwwhubs.com/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067168228...2173624?ie=UTF8 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087516610...2173624?ie=UTF8 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007CEXH...2173624?ie=UTF8 Flo doesn't have her own wikipedia page yet, but interestingly enough, on the page for _The Secret_ movie, there are links to FREE E-BOOKS on manifestation: http://www.cleaningoutthecloset.com/library.htm The woman who runs this "cleaning out the closet of your mind" site speaks highly of FSS, although none of her books are included in the free downloads. Bill--thanks for that plug. The discussion on this site has really made me re-consider my take on the whole "manifestation" mindset. I was dissing it for years, but not out of lack of experience--I once had a relationship with a woman that seemed to unfold in one absolutely magical moment after another--I'm talking about every moment of increasing intimacy feeling as though we were floating in the clouds. At the time, I was constantly reciting Ernest Holmes' _Science of Mind_ affirmations . . . Yes, all was indeed bliss, until the relationship suddenly--and I thought, inexplicably--crashed and burned. Now I'm willing to consider that the relationship was ultimately not meant to be, but that maybe, maybe the aftermath would have been so much better if I had kept up with the affirmations once the real challenges came along ... and if I had also introduced more yang power as a balance to all those watery emotions I was feeling.

Has anyone read Florence Scovel Shinn's books on "manifesting"? I'm very curious, as I'm reconsidering all these intention-sending practices, and a friend highly recommended Ms. Shinn's work to me.

I've never been to Slovenia, but the more I learn about it, the more I want to go. Ljubljana sounds like a happening town, and I've heard you have a pretty little shoreline . . . Welcome to the European Union, by the way! Eastern European countries have so much energy and so many refreshing new ideas to contribute to the fossilized Western countries, IMHO! (I'm a dual US/Irish citizen--proud to be a *part-time* American living and settling in Europe.) Zizek is the bad boy of contemporary Western philosophy--part rock star, part stand-up comic. He's collaborated with Laibach, and he even married a gorgeous (but highly intelligent, of course!) Argentinian lingerie model named Analia. While his writing style is often dense (but funny), and I don't always agree with his politics, I think Zizek should be a national hero for Slovenia! I've been putting off starting a thread entitled "Taoism and Politics" with this quote from Zizek: --from On Belief, pp. 12-13, Routledge, 2001. Whew! I need a breather! That's another reason I come to this site--to learn new methods of cooling down when I work my chattering mind up with all these fevered thoughts! Peace, Peregrino

I don't think the influence of emotion is necessarily bad, and can certainly even be good if it drives you to a new understanding. Lots of scientific discoveries were made by driven, emotional people--think of the passion of Kekule that inspired his discovery of the Benzene ring in a dream. As my most man William Blake says, "A tear is an intellectual thing"--which is to say that it reflects the state of one's cognitive processes, and not necessarily in a bad way. Emotional reactions to the Bhagwan--both pro and con--are certainly inspiring a most informative discussion here. I still have the emotional reaction that the guy was a creep, but I will try to keep in mind that at least pieces of what he taught could have had merit.

Welcome, Pero! Slovenia has always seemed like a fascinating country to me--lots of great poets, artists, musicians and philosophers packed in there! What part are you from? I enjoy reading Slavoj Zizek, even though he disses Taoism (or the "spiritual supermarket" equivalent of it) and makes me dizzy. Happy trails, Peregrino

Aaaah! Preying on the homeless and mentally ill goes far beyond mistreating otherwise healthy people with a low sense of self-worth and a high degree of masochism. Like the children, those severely damaged adults are "choice disabled," and I don't accept that they "manifested" some deep desire for abuse, nor can I ever defend any leader or organization that has so many *unwilling* victims. And the yoga just ain't worth it!

Trunk, just curious--have you actually studied with Osho? If so, what was your experience--the good, the bad, and the ugly? One other point: If there are "lack of gratitude" problems, there are also "lack of sympathy" problems for real victims of spiritual authority figures. The victims of Catholic priests readily come to mind (people either didn't believe them or straight out tried to silence them for years), but there are also loads of cases related to teachers coming from Eastern backgrounds. Ambiguity abounds in most every human being, but with regards to teachers, if the ratio of abuse to benefit is exceedingly high, I have to side with the victims when all the pertinent evidence is in. In Osho's case, I believe all the pertinent evidence is indeed in, and it resoundingly speaks against him.

I don't doubt that teachers like Rajneesh, Adi Da, and Muktananda opened their students up to amazing new levels of consciousness and bliss, but consciousness is only ONE element of overall spiritual development; indeed, high levels of consciousness combined with dodgy ethics (often justified in terms of following a "crazy wisdom" that is "beyond good and evil") are a recipe for disaster when someone assumes an authority positon. I don't expect (or even believe it's possible) that a teacher will be perfect, but when considering the prime capacities of consciousness, wisdom, ethics, and compassion (amongst others), just having ONE of these gifts in abundance is not enough for me to give any substantial support (in time or money) to a teacher. I really think the Bagwhan ONLY had a highly developed consciousness, but was hardly alone in that. As regards "crazy wisdom," I can respect that if it really does come from wisdom--and my criteria for judging that is the final results of the unconventional means taken. The fruits of his wisdom have not, in my opinion, involved the flourishing of his students across a full spectrum of spiritual capacities, and, in many, many cases, his methods of "teaching" have done far more harm than good--and I'm talking about students who followed him in good faith, and not just any malcontents who might suffer from "victimitis." Yeah, yeah, consciousness and bliss are great, but they're NOT ENOUGH TO REACH SPIRITUAL MATURITY! I think the Bodhisattva tradition brilliantly addresses this point . . . Or, to resort to a favorite example from Western traditions, as Meister Eckhart put it, "If you are in the greatest of mystical ecstasies, even greater than that of Saint Paul on the Road to Damascus, it is better to leave your solitary transports and help a hungry brother in need of bread when you see the opportunity for such service arising." While perhaps "the poor will always be with us," so will the temptations to narcissism and solipsism, and any teacher who does not adequately address these aspects of development should not be promoted as some sort of be-all and end-all. It seems that the Osho defenders here aren't as dogmatic as some of his students, but I think that I'll look elsewhere for instruction in any particular beneficial practices (e.g. dynamic meditation) that can be separated from the mess of a man that was the BSR.

Yes, Cloud, I was only just scratching the surface regarding the many "foibles" of the BSR. Really, I thought this stuff was common knowledge, at least for people over thirty in the US, along with people worldwide involved in meditation and other spiritual pursuits. I have clear memories of the news reports about the homeless people the Rajneeshis coaxed into busses from cities all over the US in order to make them residents of Antelope, Oregon (aka Rajneeshpuram) and thereby affect the outcome of local elections. Parceling out food, booze, and drugs, the "sannyasins" utterly used them and abused them to consolidate the Bagworm's power.

Looks like I was wrong about the number of Rolls Royces. The last tally was over 90: From The Ridiculous Teachings of Wrong Way Rajneesh, where you'll find many, many more of the sordid details that have been glossed over in the recent PR campaign. If he advocated meditation over medication, I'm not sure where the Valium and nitrous oxide dependency fit in. I'm not worried about the typical allegations of having sex with scores of younger women--punishing that would mean no more rock stars!--but if he really did condone middle-aged men having sex with prepubescent girls, I'll take a pass on honoring his "legacy" by spending money on any of his books.

I like to give credit where credit is due, and no doubt Osho/Rajneesh has at least some worthwhile teachings of his own--in addition to the hundreds he's borrowed from other traditions. (And that's not to say that inspired borrowing and synthesis constitute any sort of crime.) Still, I think that even the most beneficial teachings he has presented have been lived out by other people with far more integrity--people who don't need 52 Rolls Royces, employ murderous thugs, resort to heavy drug use for their "enlightenment," etc. Really, I'm surprised how many people are getting into him again after he had been repeatedly revealed as a fraud and criminal. Maybe the re-packaging of his "legacy" in the past decade has been a very successful PR job after all. Mind you, just because the mainstream media criticizes a spiritual movement or teacher, I do not always assume the worst. Along with ample legal evidence of corruption and abuse, I'm especially convinced by the testimony of a significant number of Rajneesh's ex-FOLLOWERS (rational people like my cousin, who woke up from Rajneesh-worship and built a better life without ever looking back). The wikipedia page on Rajneesh is a good place to start, along with a book by a former follower entitled My Life in Orange. Sorry if I offend--I like to think that I can separate the benefit of the teaching from the defects of the teacher, but something about Rajneesh just pushes all my buttons and leaves a bad taste in my mouth!

I don't know the final outcome of any lawsuits, but the evidence presented here doesn't seem to bode well for Master Mantak. If it's true, I'll just have to resort to my usual approach with spiritual teachers: sifting through the ambiguities and trying to discern whatever practicable wisdom his teachings offer (to the extent that they really are his!). Still, there is a certain line between all-too-human defects and the kind of behavior that makes me shun a teacher altogether. (Franklin Jones, aka "Bubba Free John," and the Bagworm Shree Rajneesh, aka "Oshit," come to mind.)